I have just finished an extremely stressful glue-up and would like some advice.
I used a different brand of biscuits and they seem to have been slightly thicker than my previous ones, to the extent that when fitting a panel the biscuits, which had been glued maybe 2 minutes earlier, would not slide into the slots.
When dry they had to be pushed quite firmly into the slots.
Is this a common occurrence? I want to know before going back to the tool shop to complain. This is only my third packet of biscuits so that I don’t have any experience to base an opinion on.
Replies
They are dried and compressed. If you don't keep them in a zip-lock or jar, they will absorb moisture and swell before they are supposed to. One remedy I use is to pop them in the microwave for a few seconds and let the humidity dry out of them. If you have a whole container, you might put them in a low-heat oven on a cookie sheet.
D,
Have a look at this post/thread and the post referenced in it (which has some pictures as well as info).
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=45720.6
Multi-biscuit glue-ups can be stressful if you try to glue both sides of the biscuit at the same time. But it is possible to glue in one half to piece A then, later, glue it to piece B. In fact, the biscuits stuck into piece A can be left to dry and this will not affect the half of the biscuit sticking out - as long as you ensure it remains dry/unglued (until your ready to stick on piece B of course).
This may not be the case in very humid climates.
If you're using biscuits only to help align pieces of a panel, you don't need to glue the biscuits. The edge-to-edge join of the panel-pieces will provde a glue-joint plenty strong enough. Dry biscuits will still do their alignment job (assuming you need them to help align the pieces of the panel at all). Even if they're tight going in, a blow or two with a rubber hammer can still move piece A agin' piece B if the biscuits are dry (and your slots have that little bit of side-to-side leeway).
*****
It's worth buying good quality biscuits from the likes of Lamello, Trend or Tanseli. They're made to exact tolerances, of good quality beech or birch and with good quality control. I have seen biscuits that are far too weak (made of who-knows-what) and also seem to vary in thickness, with some "fat" and some far too thin in the same bag.
For biscuits to work both the slot and the biscuit have to meet tolerances at the 0.1mm level, otherwise there is risk of slop, which is much worse than "tight" (but not "too tight", obviously).
Lataxe
Lataxe,I have to agree on the Lamellos. Consistent, I buy the 20's in 1000 unit boxes and then transfer them to air tight containers. I've never had any kind of consistently or quality from the Frueds in the tubes.
I pre-fit all and if they don't go in easy, I set them aside. I also use the microwave as needed.BB
Thanks for the reply.In fact, in the thread you cited, I posted the result of an "expansion test" I carried out with my previous brand of biscuits. These problem ones were in 2 packets, one previously opened. Both were stored in an airtight container and behaved similarly.Right! Off to the toolshop. It's not the peanuts I spent on the biscuits. It's the fact that I nearly ruined 2 weeks of work.
Yeah, it's common. Consider microwaving them before glue-up, though I haven't resorted to this, just tossed the ones that fit too tight. Biscuits can actually be a PITA, for the strength that you get in return. What were you gluing up?
Brian
In this case biscuits were primarily for alignment. I was glueing up a module for a fitted wall unit. I was glueing 6' x 2' sides to a 4' x 6' back and then top and bottom.The material is 3/4" laminated pine boards which glues up a treat on the long grain.
My biscuits are often too fat. Hm. Funny how that sounded just slightly less than obscene.
But I deal with that problem by first trying to dry-fit the biscuits into the slots, before assembly. If I find any that are too fat, I sand them to fit.
I used to try to grip the biscuits in my fingers to rub back and forth on a piece of 100 grit paper. But after losing the skin on my fingers a few times, I made a little jig that makes it a job that takes just a few seconds.
The jig is a short length of 2x2 with half-depth pockets routed into three of the faces of the 2x2. The size of the three pockets corresponds loosely to the size of the biscuits that go into the pockets (0,10, and 20). I simply laid a biscuit of each size on each of the faces of the jig, traced around it, and routed the pocket out. It doesn't have to be a precise fit, but the pocket shouldn't be so deep that the biscuit disappears below the surface of the jig.
In use, if I find a biscuit that's too fat, I place it on a piece of 100 grit sandpaper, plop the jig over it, press down and rub it back and forth a few times. I remove the biscuit and check it for fit, then move on to the next one. It takes just a few seconds to reduce the thickness of a too-fat biscuit to the point that it works as it should.
It might sound crazy to build a jig just to do this task, but in some of the batches of biscuits I've purchased (admittedly lower-end stock), more than half have been too tight in the slots. So it was economically and practically prudent to make those fatter biscuits work..
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I like the jig. My problem was that I had ignored the too-tight fit of the biscuits and applied the glue. I had no time to mess around with sanding especially since I was working in the dining room as the workshop is too small for this job.Another lesson learned.
Your problem has been solved. See the New Biscuit Press on eBay.com. This tool really works and we no longer sand them down or test fit any biscuits any more. We just run all of the biscuits through the press, just prior to using the glue. We even buy the cheaper brands now and then because we no longer are fighting swelled biscuits. Good Luck.
Edited 10/29/2009 12:51 pm ET by MachineGuy
By sheer coincidence I say this on a website a couple of days age,Now I know it works.Thanks
Z,
That is the best jig-story I ever heard! In the immortal words of Victor Meldrew: "I don't beleeeeve it"! (Meaning "I yam gobsmacked by this amazing and fantastic event").
Shurely shome mishtake and you need to have word with Mr Lamello about the perils of them cheap biscuits. :-)
Lataxe
Your Problem has been solved.See http://www.biscuit-press.comMachineGuy
IN THE SHOP I USED TO WORK IN, WE USED TO RE-COMPRESS THEM WITH A HAMMER. NEVER HAD ANY ADVERSE EFFECTS OR FAILURES THAT I'M AWARE OF.
You could also lay them on a railroad track to get them dead flat. Just thought I'd throw in this "time proven" method.
~~Mike
I'd have to travel to Italy, which is the nearest place with trains so that just might be a little over the top. :-)
I tried the microwave method but it was a quick test and did not seem to loosen the fit appreciably. I am currently away from hope - long weekend break and will definitely have to resolve this before proceeding with the current project.
Thanks to all for the advice. One or all of the suggestions is bound to work.
D,
I see you're in Malta. I wonder how the humidity goes, out there in the Med...?
If microwaving the biscuits doesn't work it suggests that they may be either substandard (i.e. made too fat to begin with) or have at some point got very moist when stored in the ship, warehouse or even your own shed. Once fully expanded, they won't go back.
If only some biscuits are fat (and maybe some are thin) then they're likely to ticky-tacky-bikky made down to a price in some substandard factory in the USA (sorry, I mean "in that Asian country Knotters don't like just now" - silly me, getting my list of Bad Guy countries all mixed up). :-)
Surely the answer is to get good quality biscuits and bin the problem ones? In Blighty, 1000 X No.20 biscuits from Lamello,Trend & Tanselli all cost about £23. They all come packed in sealed bags. Assuming you don't pay a huge premium in Malta for such stuff, that seems a small sum to exchange for peace of mind when it comes to multi-biscuit assemblies.
Lataxe
Edited 3/30/2009 1:58 pm ET by Lataxe
The problem with buying things in Malta is that you often do not have a wide choice. I would have to buy mail order. Actually you could help: Can you name a UK woodworking tools supplier who ships overseas without much fuss? (Note I said name not recommend as many people are reluctant to recommend even suppliers they have had good service from).The sad thing is that I bought my good biscuits from a pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap shop and the fatties from a premium shop which sneers at Asian imports and is owned by 2 enthusiasts.
"I wonder how the humidity goes, out there in the Med"95% in January, 40% in June, 80% in September!I built a new workshop door in August, 80cm wide, red deal 1" planks jointed together and allowed for 5mm expansion. In February I had to plane off 2mm.
D,
I imagine that high humidity season you have might have got to them biscuits? Perhaps an airtight container is needed, such as a stainless steel coffee tin with a rubber gasket and a strong spring clip? Or a Kilner jar.
Meanwhile, here are some British purveyors of good biscuits. I imagine postage might be something of an issue but it's worth comparing their overseas rates - have a gawp at their condition-of-sales pages. I've used all of these sellers via the Internet with no problems (but keep an eye out for any "out of stock / put on back order" messages).
http://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Lamello-Biscuit-Jointers.html
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=21609&name=biscuits&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=44
http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-53-10953-23125-trend-bsc-20-1000-biscuits.asp
http://www.power-tools-pro.co.uk/power-tool-accessories-routing-accessories-jigs-c-8_41.html?page=2&sort=3a&filter_id=11
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trend-Bsc-20-1000-Biscuits/dp/B0001P11D4/ref=sr_1_11/280-1997389-8279425?ie=UTF8&s=diy&qid=1238525259&sr=1-11
Lataxe
Dav
I agree , nothing worse than a stressful glue up. I like to keep on hand a pair of pliers made by Wiss {same Co that makes the tin snips} they are used by sheetmetal workers/ tin smiths and have two rectangular flat faces on the business end slightly larger than a biscuit.
They can be very useful when the need arises to remove stubborn biscuits quickly. I also place those plump ones in the pliers and give them a squeeze to recompress them . You can also squeeze them in a metal workers vice.
Tom.
I will second the idea of popping them in the vise and giving it a crank or two to thin it out for proper fit. Nearly any bag (tube, box, or whatever container they may be packaged in...) will have MANY fatties in it- its the nature of such a small dry piece of compressed wood. Also second the Lamello source as higher quality control and less fussing, they are ALWAYS birch or beach and properly sized. I have often grabbed the channel-lock pliers to remove a wet-with-glue biscuit from its slot or a rubber mallet to ease one left or right. Using a hammer often distorts the edge destined for the other slot doubling your nightmares...
They're old biscuits, Dav.
Crush them flat again in an Engineer's vice before you use them.
Cheers,
eddie
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