I’m about to start building an entertainment center with a face frame. The question is do I join the face frame with ff biscuits or pocket hole screws. I have a plate joiner but would be willing to spring for a pocket hole jig if someone could convince me it was worth it.
Thanks
Replies
I have both. Go for the Kreg jig
Same here and I reach for the Kreg jig 9 times out of 10 now-a-days.
Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Edited 11/25/2003 12:13:55 AM ET by Scott Frankland
Scott:
Why?
Isn't the biscuit jointer about as easy as rolling out of bed?
If there is an advantage to the other it has got to be a close call - don't you think?
Jim
Jim I build things using just about every type of joiner you can think of. If I am building period stuff it is all dovetails, M-T joints and square cut nails. If it is a built-in cabinet for a client than it may be pocket screws, brads and biscuits. It all depends. But when it needs to be quick and strong then you cannot beat a pocket screw IMO.Scott C. Frankland
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
Darren,
Why not do it properly and make real mortise and tenon joints? This is not a rush, "production line" project. Done right, you will have real pride in the effort.
Biscuits add nothing to the strength of a joint. They are a good way to align pieces for gluing. Pocket hole joinery is a quick way to do production cabinetry.
No need for anyone to accuse me of knocking these two methods. They are just crude compared to real joinery, and are frankly inappropriate and overkill of methods intended for a different purpose than a one-off project.
VL
How do you know this project isn't being done in a hurry, and that he needs to save time? He never said he has all day.
Mortise and tenon is a time-honored method of joinery,but cabinetmakers in the 1800's would use biscuits if they'd been around.Purists may scoff, but biscuit joints are plenty strong; I use them for almost everything except bed-rails and chair rail to stile connections.
Jackplane,
I didn't assume. He said he is making one. One project. Not a kitchen full of cabinets.
But even if time were of the essence, mortise and tenon construction is not slow. I'm not advocating chopping out the mortises with a chisel. I won't argue that pocket hole construction is fast. That's exactly wgat it was designed to be. And I won't debate the holding power of the method. But I WILL maintain that it is a technique that trades expediency for grace, speed for personal craftsmanship.
I am not being a purist. If needed, I could construct a frame with M&T joinery in just a few minutes more than a worker using a pocket hole jig. Maybe just as fast. I don't usually push myself to work that fast, but I don't like to work fast anyway. I have my router jigs and table saw jigs ready to go. It is not very hard to complete the job fast if you know what to do. The joints will be perfectly tight and true as a result of the jigs and mechanical accuracy of modern equipment. Granted, pocket hole techniques benefit from the same advantages. A purist might fault me for rounding off the tenon corners. But my joints will be mechanically equivalent to those with square-corner tenons.
And forgive me, but each time I reach inside my cabinets, the absence of those holes, or the need to plug them, will give me satisfaction.
I'm not being a luddite. I use techniques that are appropriate to the job. I'm making a television table for a relative that would never see knock-down construction methods, other than the fact that I have to get it shipped for Christmas day presentation. K-D is the only way I will be able to get it delivered (it's going on the airplane with my luggage!).
Give me some good reasons to USE pocket hole techniques for this project. Other than the fact that they were mentioned in the initial question, therefore assumed to be necessary. I'd appreciate a good justification for pocket hole techniques for a personal project such as this thread started with, other than the fact that pocket hole jigs exist, they're "fun" to use, the big boys use them all the time now, the joints are (almost as) strong (as M&T), yadda, yadda, yadda. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you should.
And I won't mince words on this point - they are just ugly. Uggg-LEEE.
(All you cabinet-makers who make your living filling homes with cabinets, no need to jump in here. No argument that you need to keep the cost of construction down and that your work is high quality.)
VL
I never mentioned pocket hole jigs. Only biscuits.
The project you propose was one of my very first WW projects seven years ago.
Faced with a similar choice, I used the Kreg Jig. If I did the same project today, I would do it almost exactly the same way.
Face frame built with Kreg Jig. Face frame attached with Kreg Jig. I build from Cherry cabinet grade ply. Attachment holes from the inside. Then filled with same species of Kreg plugs. With KV sliding door inserts you will never see the plugs.
If I did it again, I would use primarily biscuits to align the face frame on the carcase and then fewer Kreg screws (mabe only three or for per side to replace the need for extended clamping. Using the plugs created a lot of extra sanding work - definitely not to be done if you are using ply and you can burn right through the veneer with little effort. If using solid wood for sides, then you might find this a more acceptable joinery method for securing the entire face frame to the carcase.
Contrary to some other posts, I have found biscuits to add strength to the joint. When used with yellow glue, the biscuits swell and help secure the joint. Failures rarely come at the biscuit, but rather the wood around the biscuit splitting. FWW article several years ago proved a similar point.
I agree. Biscuits are for alignment. They do not make structural joints.
I love my Kreg jig. I have built half a house full of furniture with it, and have another half to go. It looks great, it gives me plenty of satisfaction, and since I have no friends relatives who are master craftspersons, I wouldn't even know about mortise and tenon or dovetails if I didn't read about them. You purist types remind me of the computer teachers who tried telling me in 1984 that I couldn't use a computer for word processing unless I first learned how to write a couple of programs. What a waste of time! If your goal is to create museum quality heirlooms, do it the hard way. If your goal is to build a houseful of furniture on the weekends and still have time to got to the dry cleaners and play ball with your kids, pocket holes are the ticket.
Mark.
"The mistake I made was that he asked me the time and I told him how to make a watch"
-Anon
No, I don't ascribe to that philosophy. No-one has to learn programming to use a word processor. And those who insisted on that were not purists or skilled, they were engineers with blinders who did not understand their task was to design a piece of equipment that performed ITS function without requiring higher degrees from the person using it.
I am anything but a purist. However, you are describing the attitude of a reverse snob. You deride knowledge and skill and relegate it to ivory tower (my words) "master craftsmen and purists," smug in your safety of mediocrity.
I also have a house full of furniture I have made. And my family has items I have made. And I DO derive pleasure knowing that they are made well. I DO derive pleasure knowing that I have achieved the ability to perform skills taught me by those whose advice and knowledge I admire and respect. They knew better. I hope that once in a while I can show someone else the same kind of thing.
There ARE absolutes. Good joinery IS inherently "better" than poor. But no one is forcing anything on anyone. The knowledge of form and use and effort is there for anyone who wants to learn, and enjoy by learning and doing. Excellence IS its own reward. This applies to any craft, any art, any effort.
It is a pity that you don't have a single friend who demends a little more of you than you can do. Are you all content with mediocrity? Is that all there is?
Don't you want to learn? When you see the work of a "master craftsman," don't you say to yourself, "I'd just like to make one small piece that looks that good, just one?"
You love your Krieg jig? That I can't understand. It's a cold, forged, machine-made object for making more machine-made objects. Build something that pushes you as far as you can go. Make it beautiful. A little gem of an object with hidden detail that only you know, that someone else stops and looks at, and can't help but touch, caress, examine in different lightings. "How did you do that?" they will say. "Would you make one for me?" Tell me you love that piece. THAT I can understand.
Read one of Krenov's books, any one. Maybe you'll start to understand.
Your family is fortunate to have a houseful of furniture that you have given them. Do good work.
VL
I have to admit, you make good points, and you give great pep talks. I guess I am a reverse snob when it comes to woodworking. I just have so much to do besides woodworking. For example, no woodworking is being done today because I have to rake the leaves, help my son with his homework . . . Some day, I will make an heirloom piece, I promise. And by the way, I have read Krenov. I guess I am an anti-intellectual in addition to being a reverse snob, because you make more sense than he ever did. Do you know anyone but him who doesn't apply a finish to their work? Mark
Mark, you've managed more than me then. I can't read Krenov without getting fidgety and irritated. A page, or maybe two, is about all I can choke down in one sitting on a tri-annual or quadri-annual (is that a word?) basis, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha.
Bare furniture on the other hand has a long history. Victorian kitchen tables for example were usually left bare so that they could be scrubbed with hot water after food preparation. Of contemporary furniture makers using the 'no finish' look, Alan Peters' name springs first to my mind, mostly in his oak, ash, and chestnut pieces. Slainte.Website
Mark,
"Do you know anyone but him who doesn't apply a finish to their work?"
Yes. And their work is so far beyond anything I could ever achieve as to make me envy. Such work is meant to be handled in only the most gentle way. The tactile feel is like nothing else. There is no way a finish could improve the surface. A finish would make the surface different, much different. Not better.
My father taught me. I don't have a tenth of his talent.
He was an artist, not something I can call myself. Not only was he a woodworker, he could CARVE! People who can carve can SEE the finished object inside the block of wood they start with. They simply remove the unnecessary material. He preferred mahogany and carved anything he saw. Mostly animals. Magnificent, large horses heads, whole bodies and other beasts. No finish. No sandpaper. Just carving tools. He would occasionally look at a piece finished years before, eye it from different angles, pick it up and take a tiny chisel cut, "There, that's better." And the piece would have a new, tiny facet in the chocolate wood to touch and look at.
He could put an edge on a dull chisel, freehand, in 2 minutes to shave the hair on your arm. The chisel didn't DARE deviate from razor perfect. The wood KNEW he knew what he was doing.
He was a model maker for New York Ship in Camden, New Jersey. He and his crew created exact models of every ship built, down to the tiniest detail. Those models were beyond anything I could describe. Each one must have had 20 different wood species. No finish. Every surface, curved, flat, whatever was smooth and "soft."
But when he DID put finish on a piece, it was always shellac. And it was just beautiful. It's shellac I almost always reach for to finish my own work.
I remember cabinets that his buddies built. Very much like Krenov's work. No finish inside. They were meant to be used carefully.
His father emmigrated from Russia and taught him. My father didn't have a tenth of the old man's talent.
Me? I can use a plane and chisels pretty well. But my random orbit sander gets used on everything I make. I pretty much put a finish on any surface that can be seen or felt.
VL
Smear that oil, grease and dirt from your fingers right into those beautiful pieces with no finish on them.
But anyway... I was thinking about building my kitchen cabinets out of solid cherry and dovetailing every corner. Hand cut dovetails at that. And I'm not gonna use a band saw either... I'm going to hack away at the wood with a hand adze until it gets sort of flat, and then hand plane and scrape it until it's perfect. Did I mention that I'm planning on cutting down the trees myself - with an axe?
My parents bought a piece of furniture from Stickley - You know those bastards actually use screws in their furniture?! Isn't that insane? I say we boycott Stickley and sue them to make sure they can't infer that their furniture is "fine furniture."
Craftsmanship is a constantly evolving thing... so is art. Don't fear the future! It's coming whether we like it or not!
Now, for god's sake... let the poor son of a gun buy a pocket hole jig and save himself a ton of time and effort on his kitchen cabinet project!
Petmonkey,
Yes. It sure is a BITCH adhering to the old ways. The other day I was baking a sponge care. To test it for doneness, I needed a toothpick, but didn't have any. Damn! Had to go out in the back yard and fell one of the sycamore trees. Luckily, my ax was sharp.
Got a clear log of the trunk, 5-6 ft long, 10-12 inches diameter. Got it up on some saw horses and got the bark off with an old spoke shave. Set at it with a hatchet, adze, then scrub planes, and smoothers, turning it constantly, and shaving the ends. Had to sharpen my tools any number of times. Several hours later I had whittled that log down to the size of a single toothpick. The surface of that wooden pick gleamed from being worked with honest woodworking tools. No sanding for this project. James Krenov, eat your heart out.
Took my toothpick inside, but the cake had already been eaten.
VL
lol...
touche!
I agree with your post. When I'm making furnature to put in my house I like to think I didn't go about it the fastest most expedient way. When I open the doors of my cabinets or sit in a chair that I made I don't want it to feel like I bought it at one of the large chain stores. Yes it does feel different sitting in a chair or opening a cabinet with mortise and tennon joinery. It feels like PRIDE.
Just my humble opinion.
Tony
We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
Here ya go VL....for the next time you argue our point:
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.Audels Carpenters and Builders Guide #1 -#41923 Theo Audel & CO. New York.
"Thomas Chippendale, George Heppelwhite...and Frid, Krenov and Klausz did not use gimmicks in joinery for one-offs. Short-lived kitchen cabinets are another matter. You might not be well-served by gimmicks either."
Edited 11/29/2003 10:07:40 PM ET by Bob
Kreg jig...Cat's meow..
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Darren , Assuming you are going to glue and fasten the face to the Cabinet , it's a done deal when you glue and clamp where needed . IMHO the biscuits are like a dowel and largely serve to align the surfaces. They offer no pulling power, like a screw . I use a pocket hole drilling jig equipped with air hold down on a drill press . Honestly once the face is glued to the box it snugs right up . We could probably come up with 10 or 15 ways of doing it , and it is all good .
I had never thought of the Kreg system until I watched it at the woodworking show. If I were building kitchen cabinets from scratch, that is how I'd do it. The only part of the Kreg that I wouldn't like for an entertainment system is the actual pockets that would be left in the sides and bottoms of the panels. It would take extra work to hide them. I think you would end up with a cleaner cabinet using biscuits since all evidence of them would be hidden in the joint. My friend is building a large entertainment system with biscuits for the face frame right now and it looks clean to my eye.
The pockets go on the inside of the frame and you don't see them.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I just started playing around with the Kreg last night - practicing forsome Kitch Cabs...
Awesome! I can'tbelieve I waited so long to get one. Go for the Kreg. You wil use it all the time.
By the way... I also started playing around with my porter cable 557 plate (biscuit joiner) last night too. I made the mistake of starting out with the Kreg... after that the plate joiner seemed anticlimactic!
Because you don't need to clamp, the Kreg Jig works well with curved elements of a face frame. Also to attach them(however there you have to hide the holes!)
I'm with Venicia...and I do whole kitchens and bathrooms and furniture and boat joinery just like in the pic...stub-tenon panels and sliding dovetail carcase joints with the occasional dowel to reinforce a face frame where needed.
Nuthin against biscuits...I've just never felt I needed them...my methods are just as fast in my hands.
But screwing my cabinets together would cause my Dad and Uncles to roll over in their graves.
Carcase Joint (rear)
Carcase Joint w/face hinge stile
Bob: I was with you 100% until I saw that "Waterworld" movie in your armoire. Anyone who actually owns that movie cannot have a clue! Hope you appreciate the humor
Nice work. I can appreciate your craftsman heritage. But let's face it, you are executing that fine joinery for yourself, not for your customers (at least for kitchens). Pocket screws work more than perfectly for this purpose and probably results in as strong, if not stronger end product. With the abuse a kitchen gets, well, maybe your dad and uncles would understand.
Now for other furniture, your thinking is most understandable and I agree. Before acquiring any of my miniscule WW ability, I bought a Stickley bedroom set, because of the sliding dovetail joinery and overal product quality. Certain customers will appreciate that. Actually, though, my wife thought it was stupid. She wanted to save the $$ and go on another vacation. :-)
Robbie
Edited 11/26/2003 2:11:25 PM ET by Robbie
Actually...I kinda like Waterworld...and mermaids in general. I ain't that old...yet.
Anyway, I'm not being critical of using that stuff commercially for builtins...I had to make a living or needed pin money occasionally working wood once or twice in my life, too.
My theme to folks asking advice is to learn to cut joints first. Master that...and it ain't difficult at all once you figure out which side of your awl-scribed line to make a perfectly-square cut on...and you might find that you don't need that stuff...especially if making heirlooms as a hobby is your ultimate goal. If you knew how to do that already you likely wouldn't have asked, eh?
Commercial work is something entirely different, and that's what these time-savers were designed for...kitchen cabinets with a very-short, 30-year lifespan.
But you might be shocked at what you'll use proper joinery for once you get the hang of it....a whole lotta payoff in durability for a minor additional investment in time:
Automatic Gate done commercially...12' tall, 16' opening width...roughsawn WRC...posts are copper-capped 10X10's treated and tarred and encapsulated in 36" of concrete.
Gate Joinery
Edited 11/29/2003 10:02:15 PM ET by Bob
nice detailing of those joints
Ian
Hey,
Who hi-jacked my thread? Just kidding. I really enjoy reading all the posts with different points of view. Those of you who suggested M/T joints for my face frame, you win. The entertainment center will be the centerpiece of my living room and when it's finnished I would hate to stare at it and think, it turned out great but I wish I had ...........
Thanks to all who posted.
Darren
for making frames..... pocket screws are OK. for attaching frames to the box .... biscuits are better.
I recently tried a kreg jig (bought a starter set for about $50) and was very pleased for four reasons:
1) saved total elapsed time, about the same time as biscuits to create joint but less wait time for glue to dry and no clamps consumed;
2) did a nice job on alignment without checking or setup;
3) did not have to worry about biscuits braking through frame, my face frames were 1 1/2";
4) Glue cleanup was also a bit easier to do as I just flipped the frame over, an easy task without large heavy Bessey clamps attached and sometimes in the way of my sponge.
I also chose to dado the inside of the face with my router instead of the using biscuits to connect face frame to cabinet grade ply; it added appreciably to the strength (required for my situation).
I am pleased with the results and expect to use the approach again.
The old ways are always better hmmmmmmmm lets see.... Do we still ride horses to work....?
Do we still cook in a harth or fire place?
Do we still hunt for our food rather then hunting in a super market?
Do we wear Buckskins?
Do we still live in caves?
Do we still use black slate to write on?
Some times its nice to look into the past as a simpler way of life but it is not always the best way anymore.
I use what is the simplest and best way to do things.
Sometimes its easier to make hand cut dove tails. But when Im building a kitchen Im using a router and jig.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
RonT wrote: The old ways are always better hmmmmmmmm lets see ....
Better? It depends on how you define better. More efficient? Perhaps not. Faster? Probably not.
But, we cannot understand who we are if we do not understand where we came from, our history, our heritage. The old ways help us to do that. We lose much when they are forgotten.
* Do we still ride horses to work? ....
Ask a NYPD mounted patrol officer. Ask a member of our local Sheriff's Posse or any weekend equestrian.
* Do we still cook in a hearth or fire place? ....
Ever hear of a barbeque? Some of us really enjoy cooking that way. I do my Thanksgiving turkey in a Weber charcoal (NOT GAS) kettle BBQ.
* Do we still hunt for our food rather than hunting in a super market? ....
Once again, many of us enjoy going afield each autumn and reconnecting with nature at a truly personal level.
* Do we wear Buckskins? ....
Mountain man rendevouz are a very popular way of learning and understanding how our forebears lived. It brings history to life.
* Do we still live in caves?
I guess you've never seen my house. It's as dark as a cave. Oh? That doesn't count? How about the boom in camping where people live in temporary fabric shelters, from hi-tech to primitive. Maybe not a cave, but certainly borrowed from primitive hunter-gather societies.
* Do we still use black slate to write on?
It's green instead of black, but the door of my broom closet is a chalk board for writing notes and memos to family members.
As a people, we constantly strive to reconnect with our heritage from the past. This occurs in craftsmanship and other modes of artistic expression, music, drama, painting, photography, and even woodworking. The popularity of such historical places as Colonial Williamsburg attests to the importance of such reconnection in the lives of individuals.
So, are they better? Yes, I think so. Enough better that we seek them out in our recreational (re-create) time as therapy against the deadening effects of modern living. For myself, I know that I could not live well without them.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon;
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
Edited 12/1/2003 3:54:20 PM ET by Lee Eschen
For some time now I have been thinking that the central issue in this discussion could be decided by applying the test of the available time- ie if one is doing woodwork for a living then pocket screws, biscuits will be required, and if one is making a piece for one's own enjoyment, then traditional methods are to be preferred. However, there is the thought that if one method is much quicker than another ( yeah, I know some of us reckon they can M&T a face frame almost as quick as it could be pocket screwed, but most of us can't) then if the quick method is used then more furniture can be produced in the limited amount of hobby time available
John
Whatever floats your boats, fellas.
But my point is that, to me, it's about 1) Quality 2) Skills and 3) Heritage.
1) Quality. I was a restoration and conservation specialist for many years...all these pieces will have to be repaired one day...and I'll not have a knowledgeable Grandchild cuss me one day when the age-rusted drywall screw breaks off trying to remove it for a repair, or after an intervening generation of hasty amateur repairs, the frame is too nail sick to repair again. Production built-ins that will be torn out in 30 years are an entirely different matter.
2) Skills. I'm certain after 4 decades of it, my joinery pace on one-offs is competitive with many jig users...if not outpace them. And those skills weren't inbred or even taught to any large extent by masters...sure I was there, but I was the kid sharpening the chisels and handsaws, cleaning the machines, unloading lumber and sweeping up. Nothing except a little philosophy and a few standards actually rubbed off...I started cutting joints just like y'all began, and with the same, or even more constraints...with hand tools consigned to the dump I had to rehab, first. Those skills are the single most important thing we can pass on to the next generation...and from visiting here a while, I guess my kids will be lonely ancient mariners, too, far in the future.
3) Heritage. My forebearers were boatbuilders, carriagemakers, sawyers, farmers and housewrights...sometimes all in the same man. Cash-poor, they didn't leave me much but their nurturing, and their hand tools. They weren't romantics and neither am I...they would be delighted that those old beech planes are still in hard use, but out of frugality, not any sense of romance. They would have loved plunge routers and some other modern joinery tools and glues...maybe even biscuit joiners, which I simply don't have a need for. I build the way they did because it's the most durable way to do it over the long term...with traditional joinery...the lessons of generations...and even with ancient hide glue on certain joints, always with an eye towards repair someday. The first thing I learned as a kid was that a proper piece of joinery remained functional long after all the crossgrain gluejoints had failed and all the hardware had rusted away. That remains the approach toward excellence I hope to pass on to my descendants.
So give me a holler if you want to talk "Fine" woodworking on an impoverished budget...and especially if beginning with standing trees, not necessarily the spendy Edensaw Hardwood yard...if you want to talk "Trendy" woodworking or "Popular" woodworking...then holler at somebody else.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
Edited 12/2/2003 12:23:51 AM ET by Bob
Bob,
I agree with you, speaking as a hobbiest. or the guys on the production lines, some accomdtion to faster techniques sometimes must be made.
Frank
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