Hey everyone,
After ordering a part for my Delta stationary sander, that has taken nearly three weeks to arrive, the guy at the tool store said Delta has been bought out by black and decker and they’ve been having enormous problems with parts and service issues because they’ve “restructured” the company.
Is this going to eventually turn all delta tools into plastic junk made with food proccesor motors and toaster parts?? Anybody else heard anything about this?? I hope I won’t have to call a coffee maker helpline if I need something for my unisaw.
Brian
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Woodworking
Pentair to Sell Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Product Lines
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July 25, 2004
Pentair to Sell Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Product Lines
I saw in the business press that Pentair, Inc. was selling its Tool Group to Black & Decker. The Pentair Tool Group includes Delta, Porter-Cable, DeVilbiss Air Power, Oldham Saws, and Flex Tools, among others. The deal is valued at US$775 Million. The sale is expected to be completed later this year, provided they receive regulatory approval.
This should be a good fit for Black & Decker, which already owns their own line of power tools and the Dewalt line. B&D also owns Emhart fasteners, Price Pfister, and Kwikset.
Looks like it. Pentair was a holding company. B&D bought it I guess.
Not ALL plastic is bad! Some stronger that steel for SOME things.. Not all..
EDIT: AND sure better en' 'POT METAL'!
Edited 8/12/2005 1:00 pm ET by WillGeorge
Brian:
Yes. Alot of us have know that Black and Decker (B&D) has purchased both Delta and Porter Cable from Pentair. There has been considerable threads on the issue here in Knots world.
One school of thought is that the purchase by B&D will make Delta and PC stronger by leveraging the existing suppliers, expertise and customer base of B&D. In fact the purchase has the potential to make B&D, DeWAlt, PC and Delta products better in quality by using common facilities, suppliers and sales orgs.
The other school of thought is that B&D will bastardize the PC and Delta products to be junk.
I feel that B&D will not bastardize the products of Delta and PC. They have too much to lose. And everything to gain by increasing market share via customer satisfaction.
Remember, the market (us) determines the fate of businesses and products. IF we settle for inferior products, companies will continue to spit them out. If we push back and demand quality and are willing to pay for it, we will get quality goods.
Take care,
Cheatah
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Local Knowledge -
B&D is shutting down the Delta actory in Guelph Ontario, and moving the facility to Brockville where there is cheaper labour and land, and where they already havve a B&D facility.
You can call it consolidation or whatever, but at least it is staying in Canada.
DagwoodView Image
Hey all,
Well I didn't catch those other threads about this but I sure hope it takes the line of improving rather than basterdizing what I have found to be an affordable middle of the road tool that hasn't let me down yet.
If anybody from Delta reads these posts, give us your comments to find out how things are goin over there with the changes and what you forsee for the future.
Gotta go make some shavins,
Brian
I would say the jury is still out as far as the future of Delta and PC is concerned.Looking at the various marketing segments, it would seem to make the most sense to keep/improve the quality level of the Delta line -- since both Jet and Powermatic seem to be slipping (quality-wise) since they came under the Wilton ownership. By and large, Dewalt and PC are pretty much head-to-head competitors, with PC a bit ahead in the quality race -- especially over the last five years. If I were making the decisions, I would continue to push Dewalt in the big-box segment (where it is now), and push up the level for PC to compete better with the imports -- especially the European stuff like Festool, Metabo, Fein, et al. But anybody who has watched B&D over the years would say this is not likely to happen. They always seem to be more interested in mass market sales, and this inevitably means cost cutting, and a diminution of quality. I would therefore say this is probably not a good time to be laying in a supply of Delta tools. And what they will do with PC is anybody's guess.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
The opinion I heard isBlack and Decker -- Homeowner, DIYer
DeWalt -- Construction trades
Porter-Cable -- Professional woodworking
"since both Jet and Powermatic seem to be slipping (quality-wise) since they came under the Wilton ownership."
I've got some of both, purchased since the takeover by Wilton. I've no complaints, only complements.
But maybe I don't even know what I'm missing. Just what is it that's been a slippin, specifically? I wanna know what to look out fer. Thanks.
RE: Jet/Powermatic " Just what is it that's been a slipping, specifically?"Quality, like beauty, is often in the eye of the beholder. I do a lot of reading around here, and my statement is based solely on my perception that more and more people are registering complaints about these two brands. In my own case, I sold a perfectly good Unisaw (which was 25 years old), thinking I would "move up" to a PM 66 for my final years in wwing. The motor burned out just after the warranty expired. I needed a replacement in a hurry, and the PM people would be "pleased" to send me a new one for some $450. They even "offered" to pay the shipping. I screamed and hollered until I finally reached a manager who agreed to give me one for half that price. If I had gone further up the chain, I sensed I could have done better, but I needed the thing like yesterday, so I caved. This came on top of the fit & finish issues I had with the saw -- like the miter slot that I had to work on for about 3 hours, so my miter gauge would slide through it. Some will of course say this was an isolated problem --i.e. could have happened to any saw of any brand. But my position is that if you want to be on the top of the heap, you had damn well better stand behind your stuff -- and be able to accurately machine a miter slot.Furthermore, I walked through a Menard's the other day, and they had a whole aisle of Jet equipment. As far as I'm concerned, when a manufacturer shows up in the big box, it is because they have at least implicitly made a bargain with the devil -- cheaper tools with diminished quality.I think the B&D acquisition represents a kind of paradigm shift in the tool business. And I also think the Europeans are poised (even salivating) to move into the high end part of the market for those of us who are looking for uncompromising quality (and product support) and are willing to pay for it.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
One of the best tools in my shop are my little quicksand porter cable random orbit sanders. They last a long time and are easily hooked up to dust collection.
However I did have bad luck with both the 12 and 14.4 volt cordless drills, battery life is pathetic and right from new they had a short run time. I replaced these with the Panasonic 15.6 and have been very happy with this unit.
Also my large 6" random orbit, the right angle kind, seems to not function as well as it used to and I haven't used it that much. Almost like it got loose and noisy.
The new PC magnesium circular saw though is an absolute dream to use, fast, smooth, and very true for cutting sheet goods accurately and with little or no tearout.
I agree with other posters that the likelyhood of these products improving is iffy, but it would be nice if they at least maintained the quality of the tools that they are already producing.
Brian
I don't think there is anywhere but up to go for Delta/PC. Pentair really did a disservice when they acquired them. I think they put more effort in the advertising and marketing than they did in research and development.
nikkiwood,
I agree with you on the b&d past performance. from years past they have a 'dust buster' mentality.I think the marketing will get better. I don't know how long before Norm grabs someting yellow. right now there is some confusion at the dealer level and the reps are spending an awful lot of time in meetings. when the big get bigger it just makes room for new players. it's just that in the power tool game the ante is a little steep.
jericho
It only takes a casual glance at Black and Decker's record to know what will happen. They have bastardised and cheapened the tool range of every company they have taken over since the '60s when they started life as the manufacturer of a POS DIY 1/4" drill and accessories to bolt on it like sanding disc, buffer and even a miniature lathe -- none of which it had the power to operate but all of which would shorten it's life.
IanDG
B&D was around for a lot of years before that 1/4" drill you mention. Theirs was the first electric portable power tool - a monster drill that earned it's keep. The date you refer to is more like when they started the downhill slide into DIY weekend tooling. Before that, they had the real thing.
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Ain't nothing that stops Big Bertha!
Doesn't Big bertha know that it isn't a good idea to poke hoiles in the bottoms of boats? Does she work for an insurance "adjustor"LOL
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Hmmm, all this should be a real benefit to Bosch, Makita, etc. I'm afraid that B&D will likely make their own imprint on the Delta and Porter Cable lines. Shame really. We used to have a pretty good tool selection in Delta and Porter Cable.
Oh well......let's see now, 1-800-JAPAN?
When skil took up with bosch, I didn't notice that Bosch tools lowered their standards to the level previously held by Skil. maybe there is hoppe for PC. AFAIC, Delta had already headed to the basement, since most of theirs is now made in China
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Just a rumor but ... a tool seller I was chatting with told me that the main factory for PC routers is closing (or already has). He said he's still getting "real Porter Cable" for now but isn't sure about the future ...
Regarding lower standards from PC and Delta (ignoring the blatant hijack regarding the US medical system), I would rather suggest that the opportunity is there for B&D to improve these products utilising their greater share of the international market and the innovation therein.
Forgive me for this generalisation but every time I see posts re: US manufacturers on US forums there is an overabundance of jingoistic nostalgia. Much of the product coming from the US has been very good but not necesarilly superior to that from Europe or many of the Asian manufacturers. Here in OZ many of us who have used the US products seem impressed with the build quality (with some major exceptions) but are left wondering about the lack of innovation.
Before I get truly flamed I realise the same can be said for Aussie manufacturers discussed on Aussie forums (and probably goes for most countries). My point is B&D could be in a position to produce, say Delta workstations with the features of Festool at a lower price. If so, I say DO IT, NOW!
Maybe we'll see some decent tools coming out with metric measurements! ; )
Mfg that used to be US or was planning to locate in North America is looking at our medical care costs and going to Canada instead. Toyota just did that in spite of huge tax incentives from North Carolina looking at the US health sytem as potentially too costly and out of control. The next time you hear the term "socialized medicine' as a reason to not have universal health care, realize that its why manufacturing jobs are leaving the USA. aloha, mike
Well maybe we oughta be looking at lawyers for causing this problem instead of the health care system itself.
I'd guess a good bit of the costs today are insurance because the damn bloodsucking lawyers made everything somebody else's fault.
Hmmmm, wonder if I have a problem with lawyers...
1st, the trial lawyers have a minimal impact on the cost of insurance and medicine. And no, I'm not a lawyer, and hate ambulance chasers. The medical community and the many layers of wealth creation in the insurance business are what are to blame primarily. A friend works as essentially an HMO middle-man, works 20-25 hrs a week, has no college degree and makes more money than my friends who are doctors. There's your problem. Along with docs like too many OBs that schedule c-sections because they are more lucrative and more convenient, and also infinitely more risky. Oh, and the pharma companies that change a formulation only insignificantly to get a new patent when the old one expires and the drug goes OTC. Then they can offer what is essentially the exact same product that would otherwise cost you (OTC) the same as a co-pay, but now costs a couple hundred dollars. Bottom line, our medical system is a for-profit enterprise with a lot of people making a whole $hit-load of money.
Now, back to the real issue. First, I overheard one of the guys at the local Woodcrafters saying that said B&D is considering doing away with Dewalt routers since the PCs are king. Don't know if there is truth to that or simply rumor, but typically when big holding companies acquire multiple lines they either consolidate and rebadge products with the another name in the lineup and maybe add a couple tweaks, or eliminate lines altogether. You can be sure there will likely be some major changes somewhere.
My recent experience is different from yours. I placed a special order through HD for a replacement hook & loop pad for my Porter Cable right-angle sander. The order was placed with the Porter Cable 1-800 site in Canada. Three days later I received a call from HD that my part had arrived. It came in a Black & Decker envelope, delivered by UPS directly to the store. I can't ask for much better service.
Now, if they could just figure out how to make a quiet compressor!
Regards,
Ron
Some food processor motors are real work horses, that I wish some of my tools woruld emulate. Robot Coupe is the real monster of them.
Can't argue with that, just can't imagine a blend or chop setting on my saw.
Brian
If B&D wanted to improve and perfect a tool line, they wouldn't have to buy one to do it- They have their own and haven't chosen to- I expect they've bought a reputation and by the time the world wakes up to the "new" Delta line, they'll have made their investment back and we'll have fewer choices to opt for, and a lot of them from the same cheesy manufacturer- Hafta start shopping european-
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