Quite by accident I found an excellent blade cleaner. Being out of my usual cleaner, I decided to experiment. First try, success. Electric dishwashing machine detergent. Try it you’ll like it.
I Take it all back, Ph of Elec Dishwashing Gel is more than I thought. Going to use Simple Green from now on. Thanks Forestgirl and Charles M.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 12/8/2006 9:14 pm ET by BruceS
Replies
Light, Normal, or Cookware cycle?
:-) None of the above, Just smeared the Gel on the blade setting in the bottom of the sink. Came back 15 minutes later and hit it with a pot scrubber and hot water. Shiny as new.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce,
Have you tried Fantastik?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Good to know you didn't dive for the Easy-Off Oven Cleaner. I'll be so glad when that habit dies out. Lots of general cleaners will work. My fave is Simple Green. I use the BBQ formula, because it comes out in a foam and doesn't drip off so fast. Only takes a few minutes, and the help of a toothbrush.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I second the Simple Green use. I borrowed a 12 inch plastic Rubbermaid flat bottomed bowl with lid from by better half when she was not looking. Filled it with Simple Green about 1 inch deep. Just soak the blade for at least 15 minutes (sometimes overnite) and wipe them off. Shine is brilliant.
Still using the same solution -- just add a little more every now and then. Works great.
It is hard to keep a straight face when she asks "Didn't I have a large bowl for the stuffing?" :-)
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Treehouse -
Give your wife a break and get some of those disposable aluminum pans from the grocery store - lol.
I recently cleaned all of my saw blades and router bits with Simple Green. I got a three pack of pizza pans for the saw blades, and the router bits went into a cottage cheese container (after the guide bearings were removed).
This was a rainy Sunday project and I got everything cleaned up during the commercial breaks of three football games. Who says I can't multi-task?? - lol
Probably a good idea to use pizza pans but someone will probably start a new myth that Simple Green in aluminum will explode. Does this sound like a TSA rule in the making? :-)
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
Do you use concentrated 'Simple Green' or do you first dilute it w/ water? The bottle I have is super concentrated.Thx
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
I have no idea! I just poured it out of a gallon bottle and use it straight. It is no thicker than milk.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
I find that I clean my blades more often since I don't have to deal with the lye forumula. If they're cleaned early in the pitch-accumulation phase, it doesn't take very long (not even 15 minutes, LOL!) and they cut better.
If you're not wanting to store the stuff between using it, a pizza pan works great, it's one of the few kitchen items that's big enough for a 10" blade.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Why not easy-off oven cleaner? I use the lye free formula and have not had problems but if there is something I don't know I would like to know.ThanksTroy
It’s because there is a long running urban myth that oven cleaner will damage the brazing holding the carbide to the plate. The myth exists because most people don’t understand the difference between an acid and a base. Acids will attack metal, but bases do not. Oven cleaner is a base.The myth perpetuates because there is a slight, yet twisted truth behind it. Any solvent, including water (yes, water is a solvent), when left on a blade for extended periods, like overnight, will have some impact on the metal. This also includes the most docile version of Simple Green; if left on the blade, it too will have a microscopic impact on the metals.Moreover, people automatically think that oven cleaner is a strong base, when in fact it is just a mild base. I can’t remember anymore, but I think oven cleaner has a pH which is not much more than baking soda. It is in the same ballpark as most other household cleaners.It is possible that Freud originated the myth, but even still, their posture is not that the oven cleaner impacted the brazing, but microscopically impacted the Boron dopant in the carbide. The difference is huge, but you won’t hear anyone explain it to you because it doesn't fit the myth. On the other hand, most manufacturers of carbide that sawblade manufacturers buy for their blades, actually recommend cleaning the carbide with the same active ingredient in oven cleaner as a preparation for brazing the carbide to the plate.Then there are those that tell you how dangerous oven cleaner is to your health, but they have no qualms with pouring drain cleaner into their plumbing. Drain cleaner is a much stronger base than oven cleaner.Don’t get me wrong, I am not telling you that oven cleaner is the best thing for cleaning blades. All I am saying is that the myth is not based squarely on facts.
Edited 12/7/2006 3:20 am ET by RickChristopherson
Here is Charle's original post regarding using lye on blades:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=7834.58
Perhaps he will stop by and converse with you about the "myth."forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Rick,I don't often disagree with you but I am really surprised that you would counter a manufacturer's recommendation for care of their product. At this time, Freud America does not offer a blade cleaner so I don't perpetuate what you call a myth to promote a competing product. I have personally seen macro photography of the damage to the surface of carbide caused by using "oven cleaner" as well as other chemicals. We manufacture our own carbide and recommend that you avoid alkaline and nitrates as they will damage the cobalt binder in the carbide and avoid strong acids as well. Ideally a cleaner will have pH no higher than 7 and no lower than 5.5 to 6.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Charles, Are you sure about those pH recommendations? Water has a pH of 7, and a pH of 5.5 is a mild acid. Cleaning organic material from a metal blade using acidic solutions sounds counter intuitive. (Acids attack metals and bases attack organics.)Regarding the surface damage seen on the blade, what length of soaking time did they have? As I stated above, when you leave any solvent on the blade for an extended period, it will impact the metal.
According to my factory that is the ideal range. The length of exposure is obviously a factor in the amount of damage done. This is true of many things but for an analogy: Smoking one pack of cigarettes a day is not as damaging to your health as smoking 3 packs but does that make it healthy? Again, my interest is not in hurting the oven cleaner industry or to promote a particular product. I am concerned with helping customers get the best performance over the longest time.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Rick, I'm curious -- what possible motive could Freud have for fostering what you consider mis-information in this area? forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I was whipping down the aisle of a HD about a week ago, saw a bottle of Simple Green on a shelf, thought of you, and bought it. The question was asked earlier in this thread, but went unanswered: should I use this stuff straight out of the bottle, or dilute it?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"should I use this stuff straight out of the bottle, or dilute it?" If you clean your blades pretty often (when they get a little pitch, not a huge layer of it) I'll bet you could dilute it. In the past, I've used the foam BBQ forumula, which for obvious reasons can't be diluted. Will be trying the concentrate next time the blades need cleaning (like now, actually). That concentrate is serious stuff!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You say that like I'm accusing them of a great misdeed. I didn't say that Freud created the alleged myth, just that they may have contributed. It doesn’t mean it is anything nefarious.Not everything you read in a manual, sales brochure, or publication is automatically correct. I am in the business of information, and I know how things happen that way. There was a very well known router bit manufacturer that was publishing router bit speeds much higher than they needed to be, and woodworkers wondered why they were burning their bits. There are owners manuals that publish incorrect electrical information.I see the same thing happening within my own company that operates a laser division in Germany. I frequently come across similar pieces of misinformation because of communication issues, or from not having all of the information. A key piece of information that is missing here is how long was the carbide exposed to the solvent. Furthermore, simply having a microscopic breakdown of the cobalt on the surface does not automatically translate into a breakdown of the carbide. Acids will have a similar surface effect, although they may attack another component instead of the cobalt. For all we know, it was part of a life-cycle testing, where the blade was exposed for an extended period to determine the long-term effects. If the negative effects were present after a 15 minute exposure to a standard concentration of the chemicals in oven cleaner, then there would be sufficient credence. However, if the exposure was for days or weeks, or at elevated concentrations, then it would appear that the effects are over amplified.Additionally, the last I had heard (not necessarily a reliable source) the Freud test was examining “sodium hydroxide” exposure. Easy-Off does not contain sodium hydroxide (aka Lye). I pulled up the MSDS on Easy-Off and it’s primary active ingredient is Diethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether at 5%.By the way, Simple green is not much different from the easy-off, except it does have a lower pH. From the Simple Green MSDS: The Butyl Cellosolve in Simple Green¯ is part of a chemical category (glycol ethers)...The active ingredient in easy-off is also in the glycol ether family.I’m not condoning the use of oven cleaner, but I am also not convinced that doing so will cause your sawblade to self destruct in a matter of minutes.
Edited 12/7/2006 9:51 pm ET by RickChristopherson
"The active ingredient in easy-off is also in the glycol ether family." I assume that's the non-lye-based EasyOff.
"I am also not convinced that doing so will cause your sawblade to self destruct in a matter of minutes." I don't recall anyone claiming that it would. Can you cite an example??
I just think it's funny that you insist that the technical folk at Freud are perpetuating a myth (pretty strong language) when by your own indication, you don't know what the parameters of their examination were. BTW, you didn't say anything about the copper cushioning layer CM mentions in his original post (linked in my post above).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
You’re the one making this such strong language. I said it was “possible that Freud originated it”, but not in the accusatory tone that you keep attributing to it. Right now Freud is the most active source, but at no time was I making any statements in a condemnatory manner towards them.
In most cases of misinformation, it isn’t the technical sources that have gotten the information wrong, it is other people who have interpreted the information incorrectly. Take the all-to-common myth of starving a glue joint by over-clamping. This was started by valid information from glue manufacturers because industrial facilities using pneumatic and hydraulic clamping systems were capable of clamping cabinet carcasses with thousands of pounds per square inch pressure. Someone read that, misunderstood it, and mistakenly applied the same warnings to an extreme level for hand clamps. As a result, and with Norm’s assistance, there are a lot of woodworkers complaining about having visible glue lines and weak joints.
New Edit: When I wrote this, I had no idea there was a new thread about starving a glue joint on the forum.
Likewise, I am not claiming the Freud information to be false, but without knowing more information about the conditions, it leaves me questioning the applicability.
Actually, yes I did. As I have already stated, bases do not attack metals, and copper is a metal. To put this to the test to satisfy your inquiry, I have placed several pennies into undiluted sodium hydroxide (I don’t have oven cleaner, but Liquid Plumber actually does contain the sodium hydroxide mentioned above, and has a much, much higher pH than oven cleaner.)
After sitting for 30 minutes (half of the penny in, half out), there is no change in the appearance of the pennies. No bubbling, no signs of reaction. It didn’t even remove the tarnish from one of the older ones. But then, you could have learned that by simply reading the label, or going to chemistry class.
I don’t believe there is any other type. Both the standard and heavy-duty oven cleaner use the same chemicals, but the heavy duty version is just more concentrated. There is a commercial cleaner that contains nearly pure potassium hydroxide, but you can’t buy it at your local walmart. This isn’t your run of the mill cleaner because it has a pH of 13.5 (14.0 is the maximum scale).
I’m leaving for Germany in the morning to meet with another tool manufacturer, so if I don’t respond it is not because I am angry or something like that. It’s a long flight.
Edited 12/8/2006 12:53 am ET by RickChristopherson
Rick,
Thanks for you excellent insight.DJK
I may be missing something here, but couldn't the same case be made for CharlesM's assertions? Not in any way to discredit him or to impugne his reputation, but it is a very simple matter for someone to post a link to a corporate website as a means of validating that one genuinely represents that corporation. Not that CharlesM would ever do that but it is exceptionally easy to create an impression of oneself simply by attaching some type of credentialing information to a post. Truth be told, the average reader/websurfer ingests information gleaned from the internet as though it were the gospel truth -- how many times have we all heard someone say, "I read it/saw it on the internet" and everyone nods in agreement? Further, I think CharlesM should clarify what postion he holds with Frued, Inc. Is it technical? Sales? Marketing? I think that would make a huge difference in someones perceived qualifications.
CharlesM: please forgive me if I've offended you -- that was not my intent. I only wanted to illustrate our willingness to believe what we've been told -- by whomever does the telling, regardless of his/her qualifications.
Sorry to bail out just when it's getting interesting, but off to Portland for the Best of the Northwest show. I'll catch up on Sunday when I have some time.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I’ve known Charles for a while and we have agreed and disagreed on more than one topic, but I have never doubted his affiliation with Freud. Even when we disagree on a topic, I have never doubted the genuine nature of his information. Come to think of it, with the exception of this single topic, the only other times we don’t always agree is when recommending one Freud blade versus another Freud blade, and even that is rare.I respect what Charles has to say. The last time this topic came up I decided to walk away from the discussion because I feared that he was taking my discussion in the wrong manner and I didn’t want to offend him. I don’t believe that is the case this time around, and that is why I have continued to discuss the topic.Now that you mention it, I have been curious about what role Charles plays in the company. I have wanted to ask this many times in the past, but the timing was never right, and I feared that simply asking the question would come off in the wrong manner.
Our most recent testing of chemical exposure was done in 24 hour increments. Yes, this is extreme beyond what most would do in one cleaning but it is also consistent with testing methods used in many industries. If you were to spray common oven cleaner onto carbide and immediately rinse it off you will not get the level of degradation noted. If, however, you were to soak it for one hour on twenty four occasions you would come close. Either way it IS damaging the carbide. Once again, I am not trying to cut into the sales of oven cleaner or blade and bit cleaners. My interest is in helping Freud customers get the best life and service out of their tools.As to my function at Freud, I am proud to wear many hats including product design, development and testing, technical support (via telephone and web), writing and editing product manuals and other documentation, demonstrations, training, operations, and even IT support as well as a lot of other less time consuming functions.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
A friend gave me a bottle of Can-Solve Blade and Bit Cleaner for Christmas last year. Bottle has lots of Corrosive labeling and the active ingredient is Potassium Hydroxide. I presume you would consider it to be just as bad as oven cleaner. On another forum it was said that Simple Green was also bad for blades as stated on the makers website because it attacked the carbide binders too. (At least I think that's what was said.) Short of bolting my blades to a stump and blasting them with a pressure washer. What does your experience suggest for cleaning blades? Maybe I'll go back to using Varsol.
Used the Simple Green stuff today. First blade, I used a 1:1 solution; soaked about 15 minutes and the glunk brushed right off. Second blade, got the glunk off the side surface of the blade ok, but had to soak for maybe 2-3 hours. But still wouldn't remove stuff in the gullet, so I dumped a bunch more of the undiluted SG in. Soaked another 2-3 hours, and I still had to scrub the gullets pretty vigorously with a brass brush.Is that the way it works for you?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
It sounds like you're waiting way too long between cleanings. Once you get them clean, try putting them in for a 10 minute soaking when you start seeing pitch build-up around the teeth. You should be able to soak them and brush quickly with a toothbrush and have a sparkling clean blade, one which will cut better too!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you look at Charles' post I linked above, you'll see they recommend kerosene. Here, I'll post it again:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=7834.58
I hate the smell of kerosene.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"If you look at Charles' post I linked above, you'll see they recommend kerosene."I hadn't gone back and read the earlier post. Thanks.
Kerosene is close enough to Stoddard (sp?) solvent and all the commercial equivalents like Varsol and whatever name the Oil companies label them as their brand. So I'll use them again."I hate the smell of kerosene."Unscented kerosene is available. It's the stuff the "oil candle / lamp oil" types start with before they add the fragrances. It does have a trace of a smell but you need to be close to the snorting position to tell. If you like the off the shelf scented lamp oils you could use those and have your blades and bits smell like Vanilla, Lavender, or "Rain in the Meadow". ;-) And as a bonus the blades won't get as rusty if they sit for a while before they get used again.
My preference is Lavender, but on second thought I think I'll stick with SG for blade cleaning. Unless maybe it needs an overnight soaking (not). Thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
As FG and others have indicated, kerosene (or diesel fuel) are recommended for cleaning pitch from Freud carbide.
Charles M
Freud America, Inc.
Dricote from Lee Valley will keep the buildup from happening, and Citra-solve will float it.
Well, I have not seen an entry for Bit-n-blade. I use it to clean my router bits and blade. I taped a tooth brush to the bottel. Spay a little on let it set for 10-15 seconds and hit it with the tooth brush, and it's clean as a whistle. No odors. Wipe it with a rag, and its done. Takes me maybe 5 minutes top to have it sparkle.
Edited 12/11/2006 11:48 am ET by bones
Thank you for posting.
Whenever I've posted about using oven cleaner(sodium hydroxide), I get flamed by those who fear an imminent collapse of the free world.
I've used it for years as a quick,cheap, and effective cleaner. No ill effects on me or the blade. Some will be against this practice, some for it. But it works for me.
I agree with your comments. DJK
I would not use oven cleaner or any similar product to clean saw blades, router bits or shaper cutters. Read Ellis Walentine's comments. Oven cleaner has a pH of 13 and dishwashing detergent has a pH of 12. Anything on either end of the pH scale is corrosive.
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=jigs&file=articles_629.shtml
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
Edited 12/8/2006 12:58 pm ET by JerryPacMan
Edited 12/9/2006 9:30 am ET by JerryPacMan
OK, I retract using Elec. dishwashing machine Gel. WOW Ph of 12 is strong base. Forestgirl wins this one !! Simple green from now on !
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Simple Green is OK as long as you dilute it 1:10. I use and recommend Extreme Simple Green as it is safe to use on saw blades. I also have used the CMT blade cleaner with good results.
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30881&highlight=extreme+simple
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
At any rate, lye might attack the carbide, a carbon-based material.
"a very simple matter for someone to post a link to a corporate website as a means of validating that one genuinely represents that corporation." I'll send a Christmas card to him at the address on his return label from a part he sent me last year. If it gets returned "Addresse unknown" I'll let you know. ;>)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Good morning praztl...
I just read this entire thread and even though I use Simple Green as one of the recommended cleaners from Freud, I won't tell anyone else what to use. It works fine for me as I clean rather often and don't let pitch get a major foot-hole and that might be the key to not having to resort to harsher cleaners?
But.. my intent to post was to say that I attend the International Woodworking Show in Atlanta every two years. This year I made a point of dropping by the Freud Booth and asking for Charles whom I have conversed with on this web-site for several years. Everyone pointed him out immediately as the distinquished, tall gentlemen behind the main booth. I conversed with him about 30 minutes and moved on as it's a very large show and spread over 3 buildings.
Every time I happened back by the Freud booth, Charles was there over a several day span. So.... if Charles were conspiring to present himself as a paid representative of Freud and were not...... he puts a h*ll of an effort into it with money out of pocket and time spent to do so. And Freud loaned him a shirt to boot which might implicate them in an attempted conspiracy too! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Hopefully my post might alleviate anyone thinking what you did (and a good idea to be cautious) with the inter-net being such an easy tool to fool people unfortunately. The Nigerian "boys" are my favorites, BTW..
Highest regards for having the in-sight to at least question... that is common sense to do so....
SARGE..
Edited 12/14/2006 11:28 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Beeeee carefull, you may be the first to get baned.DJK
OK, I was assuming lye-based when I said Easy Off. I don't know anything about the forumla for the lye-free stuff.
The possible effect on the blade is not the only reason I don't like using lye-based cleaner. Why put up with having to wear gloves, being careful with disposal, when it's absolutely not necessary?! The blades get just as clean, and I clean them more often, when using a simple (pardon the pun) household cleaner. If it takes lye to clean it, it's too dirty anyway and should have been cleaned a long time ago.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks, nothing like stiring up a big fuss. Have a happy holidayTroy
Happy Holidays to you too! An occasional fuss helps keep things interesting. Was glad to find things fairly calm upon return from Portland though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I keep a 5 gal. bucket of water with lye mixed in, next to my shop sink . Need I say more. Once I ran my saw blades through my wife's dishwasher the blades came out o.k. but I don't think I'm going to try that stunt again.
Call me crazy, but I've always used carburetor cleaner (Kwik Kleen or Gunk or some such). A carburetor is a finely tuned piece of metal with soldering and brazing and the like..... Admittedly, if your carburetor is spinning at 20,000 RPM it means something's gone horribly wrong, but can anyone see a risk in this practice? My usual technique is; spray, let sit 30 sec, scrub with a coarse brush, inspect results, repeat if necessary. I have yet to encounter a problem but if anyone sees a danger I don't, please let me know.
Cheers,
Nat
Two more suggestions; Citra-solve is a really fine and benevolent cleaner, and when all else fails, break cleaner (automotive) will move it.
FYI I watched a Freud Demo CD on the use of their box joint blades, Which I've used and love. Well for cleaning blades they recommend soaking in kerosene and make the point of not using oven cleaner.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Isn't there a simple, organic, biodegradable, no fumes solution to this?
I have some Wurth Pitch and Resin Remover and on the bottle they say it is Non-fuming and Biodegradable.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
"Isn't there a simple, organic, biodegradable, no fumes solution to this?" Didn't someone mention Simple Green?? ROFL!! I'm willin' to be it's a heckuvalot cheaper than anything that's specifically marketed to clean bits and blades, too.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Well, as you are down there laughing, I should tell you that I think that Simple Green is a little more stinky that you apparently do.
I once cleaned my garage floor with it, which at the time was below my bedroom, and the fumes nearly killed me. I rinsed and rinsed, but couldn't get the toxic chemical smell out of there. It took forever for the chemical smell to dissipate.
I will admit that after a short life of chemical exposure, I am a bit sensitive to them, but this was really intense. Also, I am finding that as I am more and more clean and green, that when I do smell or get exposed to toxic chemicals, I can really tell if it smells toxic.
I've never used it again.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Just to add a little more fuel to the fire I recently found Dawn(like the dishwash soap) has a product called Dawn Power Dissolver. It cleans blades in seconds. Just spray on and wipe off. I rinse and coat with wd40 all over in about 5 minutes, The teeth on the blade are even shinney.
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