Blade Sharpeing for Under $500
OK, as posted in another thread I am thinking about getting the Jet wet sharpener for about $500 bucks. The Idea here is that I suck at sharpening things and I am sick of using not so sharp tools. So I have decided that I need to spend some money on getting a system that will allow me (a hack) to get the most I can out of sharpening things. Mostly I am looking at a fairly standard Mix of planes (LV/LN and or Older planes like Wards/Stanley) and chisels and such, but also to a lesser list anything else I may need to get sharpened.
I would like to be able to do some camber on those blades that need it.
So what would you suggest? The Jet? A jig from LV/Veritus and some better stones? I am open to anything at this point. But keep in mind that I am NOT good at this.
So what say you all. Where/how should I spend the money.
Doug.
Replies
All I can say Doug is that I would love to see the lumber inventory of a woodworker who would plunk down $500 for the machine you mentioned. "For the man who has everything..." comes to mind. So I'm assuming that you must.
Please, for the love of Mike, don't tell me that all you have is a little dab in the scrap bin and a few other assorted bits and pieces.
Just my comment. Not trying to talk you into or out of anything.
I have a Tormek that I have had for a long time. I like it and USE it. However, it was very expensive.
A friend of mine has a Grizzly 10" wet grinder 90 RPM. I have used it only once but for the price I'd be hard pressed to justify what I sent on my Tormek! Or a Jet.. which I have seen but never used.
As said, I like my Tormek, BUT I/You still HAVE TO HAVE a set of GOOD honing stones.
As a side note. I only use the Tormek for repairing a damaged chisel/plane edge and truing up my planer blades.
MOST of the day to day honing is done on the stones!
Doug,
Needless to say, no matter how much money you spend on sharpening supplies, if you don't use them in an effective manner, you might as well not use them at all. I am competent at sharpening, though I would not say that I particularly enjoy it. Putting off honing your tools ultimately increases the amount of time you will have to spend sharpening.
Among power sharpeners, I prefer the dry type. Less mess and always ready. Contradictary as it may be, I use Norton water stones. I use a Veritas MKII honing guide to sharpen my tools, but whenever I go back to the stones to re-hone the edge on my 8000x Norton, I do so freehand. I believe that the MKII is the only honing guide on the market with an accessory designed to camber blades.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Well first off, I do have a BIT of wood, mostly cherry, some clear pine, a small amount of Mahogany (need to get more for another project), some old clear pine from an old pool table (Wonderfull stuff that), some oak (not much) and a bit of Ipe from doing an outdoor table. But all in all not that much. I tend to buy what I need for a project and just a bit more for the wood pile. In the new shop I have a loft in the shop that I can store wood on (very nice) but in the old shop I had little room for wood storage so I tended not to get to much and that habit still lives.
As for the spending the money. It is not like I WANT to spend it, it is not like I don't have other things to spend it on. It is just that I am NOT happy with the way that my tools are working for me now and I realize I need to do something. In an ideal world (for me anyway) I would have a gadget that I could stick a blade in and get back a sharp blade with out me ever touching it. Being as that can not happen I have realized that I need to find a solution to this and I need to find it before I go any farther. I am trying to use more hand tools (planes and such) but the sharpening issue is getting in the way. So this is something I need to address.
I started looking at the Jet because it seamed like a complete solution, and that little skill was needed to use it. However I am hearing things about it that make me wonder. To many people that own it still end up with stones.
So if I take the money I would have spend on the Jet and do something else that may work better that is what I thought of hence the $500 limit. This is about what the Jet would cost. If the Jet is the best bet, so be it, but maybe it would be better to get the tool Sharp (forget the name of it) for a couple hundred, and then get some stones (I have a couple small ones I picked up years ago at a sale) and the Veritas jig.
I am willing to spend time getting the skills needed to do this but I would like to minimize the time and skill level needed. I understand that a master at this can do it well by hand and as fast as most will do with any other system, but I am NOT a master. So I am looking for something to help me along.
So come on I know this is an area that a LOT of people have opinions on. Let a pore beginner (at sharpening) here your ideas. Now if your chance to get me converted to your way of doing things! :)
Doug M
I would buy an Eclipse style jig (twelve bucks) and do your rough grinds on 60 grit sandpaper (ten bucks worth will last a while) attached to a piece of hard Maple with some spray mount. It's fast, effective, cheap, and results in a flat grind which I have a personal affinity for. Once you've got your basic grind done, leave the unit in the jig and then hone at the same angle (you don't need no bleedin' secondaries, microbevels, and all that other assorted stuff) on whatever media you like - oilstones would be my choice. A synthetic fine stone from Norton runs about $15 and will work fine. You could pick up a hard black at some point if you think you need it. Or get a combo stone (coarse/fine). You can camber by selectively honing the outside portion into a curve that fits your eye. You can hold a little block of wood to the blade to help judge the amount of camber and your progress.
The sharpening wonks will get thoroughly up in arms. Please let it go in one ear and out the other.
Plane irons and chisels are simple wedges and geometry suggests that there needn't be a curve at any point on the 'ramp' (hollow grind not necessary). People will tell you that honing a flat ground edge takes too long and uses up 'too much steel'. It's pure poppycock. Trust me. You don't like honing. I'm giving you a totally no-nonsense workmanlike way to get it done with the minimum of fuss and investment. I hope you'll at least give it a try. It works. You ain't gonna win style points on the WW discussion boards. I can guarantee that.
You can spend the approximately $450 you'll have left over on something else. That ought to buy close to a hundred board feet of something halfway decent if you look around. You could probably turn this hundred board feet of lumber into *for sure* one big project and probably a couple of smaller projects with a value of a few thousand I would say (if you can work wood at all). Sell 'em or put them in your house. Now, contrast that with spending $500 on some contraption and you haven't made diddly squat nor do you have the lumber to make diddly squat.
Seems like an easy decision even for somebody as stupid as me.
Edited 8/27/2008 12:37 pm ET by BossCrunk
Well, this is my personal take on the sharpening thing after spending a good deal of money on a good number of methods. I have a Tormek with a number of jigs, which I use occasionally, a Veritas Mk IV honing guide, a bunch of different water and oil stones, and a few pieces of float glass, and a granite surface plate.
I used all these tools to camber plane blades, re-grind antique chisels, etc... before taking up carving with traditional carving gouges. Because it's impossible to buy enough jigs to handle all of the various shapes of carving tools, I learned to sharpen them completely by hand and eye. That was a revelation, and I now shaprpen/hone my plane blades and chisels completely by hand. The only time I use the Tormek is when I have to remove a lot of metal to remove a chip, or if I'm sharpening something long and unwieldy, like a set of jointer knives.
Were I to do it over again, I would buy an inexpensive, 6 inch wheel grinder for taking off a lot of metal and/or sharpening turning tools, the Norton japanese water stones, and the cheap granite surface plate from Woodcraft to flatten the waterstones on. The final honing I do while working could not be simpler, faster, or cheaper - I use a piece of leather glued down to a scrap piece of wood with some honing compound. So long as the edge of plane blade, chisel, or carving gouge has not been chipped, it takes all of about 30 seconds to return the edge to razor sharp. After about 5 or 6 of these stroppings, I re-establish the small bevel on a 4000 grit water stone, and after many of these sharpenings/honings, I re-grind the hollow bevel on the blades with the Tormek (but a much cheaper dry grinder would work just as well).
Chris Schwarz' blog at The Lost Art Press has an excellent discussion of how to establish an accurate camber on a jack plane blade with nothing more than a piece of wood, a compass, a magic marker, and a grinder (though it could also be done effectively with a coarse oil, diamond or waterstone). It's worth reading.
"Chris Schwarz' blog at The Lost Art Press has an excellent discussion of how to establish an accurate camber on a jack plane blade with nothing more than a piece of wood, a compass, a magic marker, and a grinder.."
"...with nothing more than..." appreciate the chuckle this morning.
Edited 8/27/2008 11:32 am ET by BossCrunk
Hmm - well, the point was "no jigs". And it could be done with a belt sander or even a piece of driveway gravel (assuming you're patient enough). However, I messed up the reference - it was actually on the Woodworking Magazine blog:
http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Sharpen+A+Fore+Plane.aspx
See these are the types of Ideas I am looking for. It is not like I WANT to spend the money. I just am tired of my tools being dull (their I said it) and I know I need all the help I can get to do this so I am willing to toss money at it. However I keep coming back to basic stones a cheep dry grinder and maybe the "fancy" jig from Veritas. And I think that can be had for about 100 to 150 or so. And spend the rest on something else I am thinking Cherry for a new book case in the so called library. (so called as it does not have any good/ permanent book cases in it as yet.)
Doug M
Where do you live? I swear by God if you're somewhere close I'll throw my setup in a small plastic bag and come over to your house and end this silly $hit once and for all. I can grind and hone every edge in your shop in less than an hour with a total investment in 'equipment' of less than fifty bucks. Cripes, I'll even leave my stuff with you as a gift and order a new set up. It's truly that insignificant an amount of money, but as effective as it is cheap.If you have any complaints about the edge quality you can ride back over to my shop with me and pick out some lumber for your next project, gratis.
Edited 8/27/2008 1:08 pm ET by BossCrunk
I hate to admit it, but even after nearly thirty years of sharpening, I cannot consistently hold a tool at a constant angle to avoid honing a slight camber on its bevel. Call me a klutz, I guess. So, I have the Veritas jig that I use to re-establish a flat bevel on my chisels and plane irons when they get all fussed up. This thing works great but may be overly complicated. Perhaps the one Boss Crunk mentioned works equally well. In any case, these rather simple honing jigs can make an expert of anyone. I find that using it on occasion (I still do touch-up by hand) doesn't take too much time and it rewards with a truly remarkably sharp edge. I use water stones or a course diamond one for when things get really messy. I cannot see spending any amount of money on an unnecessary machine. Besides, it takes up space and my shop is already overly burdened with stuff.
Doug,
As you've learned from the few responses you've had so far, every woodworker has a different technique. Also, every woodworker has a different definition of sharp.
Let me state that when I started woodworking six or seven years ago, all my tools were usually dull. I sharpened them will a mill file. Yes a mill file. I clamped the tool in my metal working vise and went at it. Maybe that was a blessing because I learned to sharpen with a steady hand. Anyhow, the file produced a sharp edge good enough to cut adequately.
Then I acquired a 4" bench grinder. It removed metal faster than the file, and with due care, didn't ruin the temper and created a good edge.
At school, the shop teacher used to touch up chisels on the belt sander. That produced a workable edge in a couple seconds. Just mind the heat build up. While he used the 6x48" stationary horizontal belt sander, a 1x42" belt vertical belt sander is a better choice, in my opinion. They have nice adjustable tool rests as well as an unsupported area to sharpen gouges.
Digging though my dad's stuff, I found a sharpening stone (oil, I think). I bought an Eclipse-style honing guide and spent an hour going back and forth on the stone. My chisels were sharper, but also cambered because the stone was dished. To flatten it, I stuck a piece of 60-grit sandpaper on a scrap of laminate flooring and rubbed the stone on it, which lead to...
The scary sharp sandpaper on glass system. Wet-dry automotive sandpaper on plate glass or other flat surface becomes the sharpening medium. The beauty of the system is that it never needs sharpening and starting-up costs are compartively little. However, the ongoing purchasing of sandpaper got tiresom.
So I got a diamond stone. Fast cutting, long lasting, but expensive. It put a nice keen edge on my tools. I was happy.
But then I had a desire (maybe more external than internal) to put a finer edge on my tools. My diamond stone was the finest grit available at 600x/1200x. So I bought a Norton 4000x/8000x water stone. And it cuts quickly and leaves a nice finish and a super sharp edge. Water stones wear quickly too, but I stay on top of that and keep it flat with the diamond stone.
Then I got into carving. Most carving tools are not flat, rendering my wonderful stones suddenly lacking. It was then that I was introduced to the strop and honing compound. Wow, a simple piece of leather and a green "crayon" sure put a keen edge on a tool. This is the sharpening method I use for all my carving tools. They cut so the endgrain of pine so cleanly.
Bottom line, it might take you many methods and many years to find a sharpening system that works for you. All produce a sharp edge, and that is what makes your sharpening venture a success.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
When I saw the header I thought: you can grind a set of knives for a veneer peeling lathe for a lot less than $500!
Try the worksharp.
I think you wanted to send this message to Doug Meyer who started this thread.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
What one can't escape, however, is the persistent history of woodworking. Simply look what was done with relatively meager kits.
One could spend a lifetime with one's mouth agape at the church carvings in Great Britain alone. That's before you even contemplate the tools that were used and what they had at hand to keep them sharp - whatever your definition of that term happens to be. What they had was apparently sharp *enough* to handle a whole lot of oak. It's an inescapable truth. And that's what were talking about here - sharp enough, not the calculus of a limit as a variable approaches zero (a perfect edge). These fellows understood the concept of diminishing marginal returns in the context of completing woodworking tasks, not endless fettling and experimentation in a vacuum. Richard Jones's old saw - "tool's dull, better sharpen up" comes to mind. Not, "tool's dull, I'd better order a new Shapton stone from Woodcraft 'cause I haven't tried one of those yet."
Masterpieces were built with kits of tools that could be packed up and carried home at the end of the day. I know a whole lot of people who couldn't pack and carry their sharpening setup to the end of their driveway without help.
Edited 8/28/2008 7:59 am ET by BossCrunk
You're absolutely right with everything you've said. I will comment (not refute) on your last sentence however. Most of use work in our workshops, a confined area and therefore do not need our tools to be particularly portable. However, the carvers which you mention as an example travel to their work - different situation.
"Simple is best" is probably appropriate. It's just a matter of defining simple...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
This story of you trip down the road of various sharpening options is pretty much the reason for the thread. I am hoping to avoid this trip myself. I don't mind spending the money, I just don't what to find out that what ever I go with does not really do the job.
Doug M
You might consider a Worksharp. I've used one for chisels, but haven't tried a plane iron yet. It has a built in jig that holds the blade at an angle of your choosing. Its essentially a motorized SS system with a built in honing jig. It's not a panacea. I'm not sure I love it. You might be able to go faster by hand with a new LV jig. But if you have a Sears or Woodcraft nearby, you could try it and see what you think. Adam
Adam,
I've seen the Worksharp in action and I think that it's great for sharpening anything that will fit under the table (there's a width restriction of 2" or something). However, if you are dealing with a wider blade, you're dealing with the under-designed tool rest on top. I don't think that it's a great tool for adding a micro bevel either. 5-degrees is just too much. But that's what stones are for.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Doug,What sharpening stuff do you have now?
Doug - I'm assuming you already have some sort of sharpening set-up (oilstones or sandpaper and a piece of glass at the least). If that's the case, choose a relatively small (about 1/2" wide) chisel, and get it really, really sharp. What that may tell you is whether you really want any jigs or machines. I'm betting the answer will be no.
Start with a good look at the bevel. If it's rounded (in the convex direction), you'll likely have trouble holding it a consistent angle on a fine honing stone (or fine sandpaper). If you've a cheap grinder, use a small square to draw a line across the back of the chisel, as close to the edge as possible but still going the full width, that's 90 degrees to the length. Use the grinder at about 25 degrees to grind back to this line, being careful not to get the edge really hot (you should be able to touch it without getting burned). If you don't have a grinder, make a wooden wedge out of a hard wood like maple that's long enough to place under the chisel and support at least 3" of the blade. Use that block and some coarse sandpaper (or a coarse stone) to grind the bevel back to the aforementioned line.
Use the same block and go through progressive grits of sandpaper or honing stones to take the large grinding marks out of the bevel. With each grit, turn the chisel over and hone the back (flat against the stone).
Finally, when you've got an overall matte look with no visible scratches to both the bevel and the last inch or so of the back next to the edge, use another wooden block cut to about a 30 degree slope and a fine stone or 1500 grit wet-dry paper to hone the very front of the edge - when done, you should be able to just barely see another bevel on the edge that goes all the way across. Hone the back on the same fine stone or wet dry paper to remove the wire edge - you won't be able to see the wire edge, but you can feel it with your finger.
Then (and this will help a lot with learning to do this without wedges, jigs, etc...), get a magnifying glass and examine the edge under bright light. You shouldn't be able to see the actual edge, even under high magnification, and the chisel will be very sharp. A good test for the sharpness is trying to cut the end grain of white pine, basswood, or some other very soft wood. A dull chisel will tear the grain, a sharp one will leave a clean cut.
The reason I suggest going through this exercise is that it's generally always easier to learn to do something if someone shows you, or you do it yourself one time and can figure out what's going wrong in the previous attempts. I'm betting that after going through this once, you'll find you can dispense with the wedges (or jigs) and just do it by hand and eye.
Doug,
Hi. I'm from the UK so what I have to say probably has little impact on the USA.
When I started in woodwork about 40 years ago I couldn't sharpen a chisel to save my life. After 2 months I was a bit better but had no real idea.
I joined a local club and became friends with a guy called Alister who took pity on me and taught me about sharpening. It took about 3 weeks for me to go from beginner to pretty good and then 10+ years to get to expert.
Save your money. $500 is a goodly sum. Find a friend to help you. See if one of the guys on this forum is close enough to visit to help you ( pay him back in tools new or used, beer, wood whatever). If not then join your local woodworking club and get some help there. And don't just stand and watch roll your sleeves up and have a go.
If that will not work for you then you might buy a DVD by David Charlesworth ( its no 3 I think) and watch him sharpen his LNs from planes to chisels. Its detailed, it works and you could follow him step by step.
regards and good luck with your sharpening
Alan
I joined a local club and became friends with a guy called Alister who took pity on me and taught me about sharpening. It took about 3 weeks for me to go from beginner to pretty good and then 10+ years to get to expert.
Ten years, huh? Fascinating journey I'll bet.
Boss,
I have just about every sharpening gadget known to man. The joke is I now mainly sharpen hand tools free hand with the Tormek just for touching up a damaged edge. I called myself an expert but that not really true there are guys out there who know so much about sharpening that they scare me. Got to have time for a whole other life.regards
Alan
It's clear that you hold the so-called sharpening experts in a great deal of esteem.
That's an interesting phenomenon in itself really.
Y'know, Boss,
I reckon I must be one of them-there sharpening experts, myself.
From craft fairs, to the hunting camp, to the scout troop, anyone who can put an edge on a piece of steel is regarded somewhat like the fellow in Coleridge's "Kubla Khan"
And all should cry, Beware, Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread.
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of paradise.
Why the sharpening of edged tools should be looked on as some arcane, mystical event, capable of accomplishment only by those with souls in thrall to the devil, super-endowed with the dexterity of a brain surgeon, and/or a passel of equipment of complexity and precision in keeping with the production of nuclear isotopes, is a source of wonder to me.
If I only had a dollar for every time I have heard, "I just can't sharpen a...(knife, chisel plane, axe), Boss, I'd fly down to Tenn, and take y'all out for some BBQ.
Personally, I have come to accept it as my lot, to have the responsibility of keeping everyone's hunting knife at the camp sharp, as well as the pocket knives of the random passers-by at whatever show I am demonstrating my trade.
Attempt to explain (it really isn't that complicated) how it is done, and the listener's eyes immediately glaze over. "Aww, I tried it, and it was duller when I finished than it was when I started," they say. I think it's a conspiracy, foisted on the public (by the purveyers of gadgets, jigs, and gew-gaws, and stones that must be frequently used-up by their maintenance, not their usage,) and bought wholesale by those who, on falling off a bicycle, said, "Aww, I'll never learn to ride one of those things."
Shucks, I busted my soap-box, jumping up and down on it.
Ray
And allAll should cry, Beware, Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair! should cry, Beware! Beware!His flashing eyes, his floating hair!Weave a circle round him thrice,And close your eyes with holy dread,For he on honey-dew hath fed,And drunk the milk of Paradise.
One thing's for sure-plenty of companies are capitalizing on folk's quest for the perfect edge.
Gonna throw my 2 cents worth in here.
I have been away from woodworking too much since I took on a full-time semi-retirement job at the local college, but now I'm sort of back. Bought a Rikon midi-lathe with extension bed a couple weeks ago and an teaching my 10-year-old grandson how to turn.
Here's what you want to do. It's how I learned how to sharpen:
Jump in your car and drive to Warren, Maine. A weeekday is best. Maybe call ahead to see if the Lie-Nielsen showroom is open. Play with the nice planes in the showroom, just to get a feel of how a sharp tool cuts. If the man in the showroom isn't busy with other customers, ask him how they sharpen their plane blades.
He told me about sandpaper on a flat surface. (later I got a $3 granite floor tile at the big box store.) Then he showed me how to hone on a water stone. After he had spent about 20 minutes with me, I bought a 2000/8000 waterstone.
Later I bought a $10 jig to hold blades at the right angle. I use it when I need to. Other times I just hand hold the blade and it comes out right.
Nope, I havent boght any planes from the folks at Lie-Nielsen. I bought a Bailey #7 (Circa 1885 - 1888) from a guy here in NH and with a sharp blade, it works wonderfully. (I don't own a power jointer, I do that stuff by hand).
Anyhow, I learned to sharpen at the Lie-Nielsen showroom. I was confident that if it was good enuf for them, it was probably good enuf for me.
Bill
A couple of points.
Point one if you do not want to talk about sharpening (and for less then the stated $500) then please keep the heck off my thread. If you want to start your own and continue the argument please feel free.
Point 2 the reason for the $500 bit was that is the cost (or there abouts) of the Jet system that I was considering buying but was not sure if it would work as well as I hoped.
The point of this thread is as follows,
How to get a good sharp tool (chisels and plane blades mostly) with out having to spend the rest of this year and parts of next learning the art of sharpening. As such I was willing to go as high as $500 for a system that would do that. The point is not to save money the point is to try and come up with a system to sharpen that will be fast to learn (as much as possible) for a newbie to sharpening. I know that a LOT of people think that the best way is to just dig in and learn to freehand, but that is not in keeping with my personal temperament, that does not mean it is not a valid option. But in keeping with the threads idea, it may be a bit much. The idea being is their some way to get a jump on the sharpening bit. For instance if you start using a jig and slowly build up your confidence you would then be able to start trying it freehand when needed, knowing you can get a good edge buy falling back to the jig.
I do not think that the best way to teach someone is to dump them in the deep end and hope they learn to swim before they get sick of it and just get out of the water. Keep in mind that this is a hobby it is supposed to be fun. If someone spends a few weeks (or months) fighting to learn how to sharpen the blade and of course fighting to use a dull blade, they are likely to take up golf. So if we can shorten this learning curve it would be a good thing. Then once they can sharpen to a piratical degree the masters can take them to the next step of sharpening nirvana. I assume the ultimate is the ability to freehand sharpen anything, on a somewhat flat rock, blindfolded, with your toes. :)
I have been offered a chance to work with some on this thread, and given the level of skill of those that have made the offer, I am generally honored for the chance. however, A) I tend to be a bit shy and thus do not really like to learn things that make me look like a fool in front of others, B) a lot of people are not really very close so it is not likely to happen, C) time is always an issue for me as I seam to have little of it free.
So lets TRY to keep this thread sort of on target?
Doug M
Doug
Firstly, my apologies for the early shenanogans. Let's hope we can keep this thread clean from here on in.
Secondly, I have another suggestion for a sharpening system. This one is quite a bit more expensive than the "10 cent Sharpening System", but is worth considering.
Take a look at my review of the Sharp Skate, a jig developed by Harrson Stanley. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Side%20Sharpening%20and%20The%20Sharp%20Skate.html
This is an expensive guide (about $150) but it does teach the motor memory that will lead to free hand sharpeinng.
View Image
The principal here is to sharpen sideways (rather than fore-and-back). Side sharpening is an excellent method of controling a blade on a stone.
View Image
Tony, if you re-visit Joel's DVD, you will find many similarities with his method.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I agree with the similarities. The first time I saw the DVD I was impressed by the notion of using the diagonal/side to side motion with the hidden benefit of not needing a wide and long stone, and the ability to use all of the stone.
Several years ago, I believe it was Wood Magazine that published a very simple side to side jig. It was very easily built, but set a one angle. Upside is that multiple jigs could be built to different bevel angles.
As a hobbyist, there was a time I was intriqued by sharpening. It was quite impressive to shop visitors to see mirror polished blades and chisels. I did find out, though, that accomplishing the polish through Scary Sharp, Waterstones or what have you, also unless I was very careful caused dubbing. Careful, for me, meant religous flattening of the waterstones and being anal about gluing sandpaper to a grantite plate. You and I also corresponded about the Worksharp last year and my interest in it has completed waned. If anyone wants a private opinion, PM me as I don't want to state my opinion on a public forum as fact, it is simply my opinion of what worked for me and what didn't.
These forums add quite a bit of humor to one's day sometimes, don't they? As mean spirited as some postings sound and as friendly as others do, my take is that the printed word doesn't always represent the person behind it. My gut feeling is that if all of the posters were in a bar or pub,partaking in their chosen beverage be it alcoholic or non-alcoholic, we would pretty much all get along. Then again maybe I'm just a bit too optimistic, eh? It is simply too nice a day today to burden my self with worries that I have no control over.
Tony Z.
Sad part abotu it is I DO have a few of his planes.
Doug
You live close to me, come up to the shop and I’ll be happy to show you how to have shaving sharp edges with only a cheap 6” high speed dry grinder and an Arkansas hard white oil stone, then the beer is on you.
I think you're wasting your time.
I like a challenge.
Napie, I may just take you up on that offer at some point. As of right now I can tell you what I am going to spend my money on and that is getting my car to run and not leak all over the parking lot. It seams it desided that the antifreeze looked better outside then in. This is not good so at this point I am not really mobile.
It does seam that the way to go is still with stones and some sort of Jig to help and eventually work up to the skill level needed.
Doug
No, jigs are a crutch. Learn it the right way, jig free from the begining.
You reject jigs?
For sharpening, yes, all of them. I have never used one and have never needed too. It is wood after all, we are not building the lunar lander. Keep it simple.
Edited 8/29/2008 12:44 am ET by Napie
Did you consider spending your money on a class that teaches you how to sharpen? Perhaps that would empower you to sharpen your tools without a specialty machine...
I have thought about taking a class, but I have not seen many options around here (Detroit Mi area) and those that I have seen I have not known much about so I have wondered if they are any good. It may be an indea.
Doug M
That is unfortunate. For what it is worth: if I lived anywhere near you I would teach you entirely free of charge (apart from sustenance of some sort). Also free of hype, fairy tales and fandangled devices apart from a simple aid to guarrantee quick consistent results. Entirely free of Talibanistic extremes which would defeat the purposes of a useful hobby .
Kind regards.Philip Marcou
Philip, Thanks for the kind words, I may look into the idea of getting someone to show me how (I may look into a class or some such) but I think that will have to wait I just got slammed with a $1000 car repair bill that will take up the amount of money I can blow on this and that.
Doug
I told you I'd show you the Jedi ways for beer.
Since nobody mentioned it.....I spent $25 for Rob Cosman - Hand Planing and Sharpening. Best money I have ever spent for woodworking. I couldn't sharpen anything to satisfaction, now I love to sharpen my planes and chisels to a razor edge by hand in a few minutes per iron.
A CD, 3 Norton Waterstones, a tuperware with lid to keep them soaked in water at all times......cheap and lasts for years.
I would suggest adding a strop charged with the 'green' compound. Not much of an expense (less, if you make it yourself).
Best wishes,
Metod
Yeah I am leaning more and more this way. Get a few stones, something to keep them in and work with them on, get a strop, and maybe a jig (yeah I know, but I am not that good at freehand stuff) and Call Napie and have him show me what the heck I am supposed to do with this stuff. Odds on it will have to wait until latter in the year at this point. I have two much going on right now to worry about it. And the money I was going to use (and about that much again) just went into the car to get it fixed so....... Even though this is a LOT cheaper then my max limit of $500 I am holding off all purchases until a while from now thinks to the car trouble.
Doug M
Doug,Sorry to hear about the car but maybe staying away from the tool store is a good thing for right now.God knows I'm not good enough to offer instruction but, like the blind pig, I did find a couple of acorns I'd like to share. Watching David Charlesworth's video it taught me I'm a visual learner. I can read till I'm blue in the face but seeing makes a world of difference in a NY minute. Secondly, watching and applying his ruler trick method showed me just how little is needed to put an edge on the plane blade; Just three or four one inch strokes and the back bevel was there...and a very sharp edge.I started to free hand but only while honing and only on a pull stroke. I'm graduating to free handing using a side to side stroke..but still while honing only. The key is are they sharper when I'm done...they are. If I need to sharpen or if i mess up I grab the Veritas #II jig. I figure that as long as the blade is sharper when I'm done I'm successful. Sometimes I get greedy and go to far and then it appears I've lost the edge.
Doug
I dare you to find a more cost-effective and fool-proof sharpening system than this:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,That's a wonderful solution. I gotta tell you though, I been checking all day and I can't find any Tasmanian oak for ten cents. I'd worry that using quarter sawn white oak would expand and contract seasonally and throw my bevel off. :)
Mine, cheap grinder one oil stone, no jig.
Napie
The jig here is for lower primary school pupils (approx 10 years old). What do you think?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Nope. It'll just end up being a crutch. They should learn the right way from the begining.
Napie, always the Luddite.
Notwithstanding my own preference for freehand honing ...
What do you think about the motivational qualities of the average 10 year old? Do you think (from the standpoint of a teacher) that it is better to use a jig and get on with the joys of woodworking, or run the risk of stalling their interest by persevering with labourious sharpening?
Could you generalize this to adults?
Just curious how you approach this area.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I see no reason to start them with a crutch. I learned to sharpen from my grandfather well before the age of 10, (we had hogs to butcher as well as deer to dress during hunting season). The sooner the motor skills are developed the better. As to adults, I think the same applies. I’m old school on this subject. I have no special talents in this regard, I just hone the blade. There has been such a odd mystic created around sharpening that it doesn’t deserve. Just how do people think the Goddards, Townsends and the Seymour’s were able to build all that wonderful work with tools sharpened on some old oil stone????
Don't forget the linisher, a thousand or so bucks worth of waterstones and Shaptons, three or four oilstones, a wet-grind sharpening station and a dry grinder or two, plate glass, and an inventory of micro-abrasives.
Did I forget anything Derek?
Nah Charlie, you left out a couple ...
But I am curious - do you agree with Napie that children should sink or swim in the woodworking pool? Is your teaching philosophy as dogmatic?
Regards from Perth
Derek
I believe that children should learn how to cope with frustration without quitting and giving up. After all, the world wouldn't have Tiger Woods if he'd quit the game of golf the first time he missed a two-foot putt. He seems happy and well-adjusted to me.
So, yeah, I'd introduce a kid to honing pretty early on. It's the two-foot putt of woodworking. Gotta sink those most of the time.
What I would do without a doubt is make sure he or she understood sharpening in its context and not in the context of a sharpening 'expert' or 'wonk.' The phrase "he or she is a sharpening expert" just does not compute with me any more than saying somebody is an expert at jointing the edge of board. It's taking tiny pieces of something out of proper context.
Edited 9/5/2008 9:13 am ET by BossCrunk
Let me also say this Derek - I would teach sharpening in a very off-hand way. I wouldn't make some grand announcement that we were about to learn a "gateway" skill and launch into a diatribe about geometry, tool steels, etc. Rather I would probably say, in the middle of actually doing some woodworking, "hey, this edge is a little dull for what we are trying to accomplish at the moment, let me show you how we're going to take care of it so we can get back to what we were doing." We would hone and move on. I'd go through this a few times and then let them try it themselves. If they weren't quite as successful as they needed to be TO CONTINUE ACTUALLY WORKING WOOD, I would have something sharp sitting in reserve so that WE NEVER QUIT ACTUALLY WORKING WOOD (although they would be allowed to experience frustration and the feeling of not being able to accomplish something on the first try). Eventually, everything would work out and we would NEVER QUIT ACTUALLY WORKING WOOD during the entire learning process so that when all was said and done I had taught ACTUAL WOODWORKING and not pieces of it. Sharpening would be just something you did like turning on the shop lights or sweeping up before quitting for the day. Woodworking is occurring when marks are placed on wood (pursuant to a pleasing design) and wood removed up to that mark in anticipation of joining the individual pieces to make an article of hopefully both usefulness and beauty. Everything else is just flipping on the light switch.
An analogy from golf- it would be like Earl Woods telling a young Tiger "step a half an inch closer to the ball and just wail on it." He didn't necessarily need to quote chapter and verse from Cochran and Stobbs' The Perfect Golfswing, which is an exhaustive study of the geometry and physics of swinging a golf club.
Edited 9/5/2008 12:32 pm ET by BossCrunk
Dude, that was elegant! I love it ACTUAL WOODWORKING, wow, what a novel concept here at Knots…
You 'da man.
For you freehand zealots:Just how much of a convex bevel do you allow before putting the iron back in front of the grinder? Or perhaps I misjudge you and you are capable of holding an the iron's bevel exactly flat throughout each and every stroke. For to wobble even a little will introduce the beginning of the convexity. And it can only grow from there. And... Please don't misconstrue what I'm asking. I know that a perfectly flat bevel isn't necessary for good work to take place. But I do wonder if there is a limit.
Sapwood,Just how many strokes do you think are necessary to hone an iron or chisel? I might do three or four on my medium stone and probably less on my fine stone. If you can't hold reasonably close through that how ya gonna cut anything straight with your chisel?
Larry, this is somewhat misleading. Honing takes few strokes, but sharpening a new, neglected, or damaged blade requires significantly more.
Secondly, the coordination needed to perform most chisel skills in wood is not the same as holding a blade on its bevel edge at precisely the same angle as you draw it or the stone across. There's noting wrong with honing guides any more than there is anything wrong with planes (which are after all essentially glorified guides for a chisel that hold the blade as a consistent precise angle).
Samson;
You risk the wrath of those who believe a sharpened fingernail is all that is really required for fine woodworking.
Boss and Napie can do fine woodwork with naught but a flat rock, unfortunately none of us are worthy to see any of it.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Samson writes, "Larry, this is somewhat misleading. Honing takes few strokes, but sharpening a new, neglected, or damaged blade requires significantly more.
Secondly, the coordination needed to perform most chisel skills in wood is not the same as holding a blade on its bevel edge at precisely the same angle as you draw it or the stone across. There's noting wrong with honing guides any more than there is anything wrong with planes (which are after all essentially glorified guides for a chisel that hold the blade as a consistent precise angle)."
Samson,
The majority of work on a new or neglected tool is done on the back. You use a honing guide for that? After that back is flat you regrind and I have yet to find a honing guide useful for grinding. Then it's those few strokes on your stones. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you find misleading.
I'll tell you what's wrong with guides. They cause people to focus on the bevel. The bevel is the easy part, getting the back flat is the real issue in conditioning a new or abused tool. I've taught a number of workshops and a number of people to sharpen. The problems they have invariably center around getting the back honed all the way to the edge. There's no guide I know of that helps with that.
The other problem with honing guides is that they only do the simple stuff. Anyone wanting to advance beyond rectilinear cookie-cutter woodworking is going to have to learn to sharpen profiled irons like found in gouges, molding planes or other curved profiled tools. There are no honing guides for these tools, you have to learn to sharpen. But being able to handle profiled cutting tools is a distraction and I probably shouldn't even include it here.
No matter how perfectly you hone the bevel, you will never have a sharp edge until you get the back of the tool flat and uniformly honed all the way to the edge. Think back a year or so ago when Derek threw up his photos of the LN iron he was having trouble sharpening. The title of the thread was something like "Defective Lie-Nielsen plane iron." If you looked at those photos, you'd have noticed you could see the reflection of Derek and his camera in the back of the iron. Well you could until you got down to the cutting edge. He'd worked so hard and long on his sand paper making a mirror out of the back he'd dubbed the hell out of the edge. It was very clear in the photos that edge hadn't been honed. Derek had completely lost sight of the fact he was supposed to be sharpening and got distracted by wasting his time trying to make a mirror out of his plane iron. In the photo it was easy to see that cutting edge was next to worthless. I sure wasn't surprised when he reviewed the LN joinery float and only sharpened half of it--if nothing else, he's consistent with only sharpening half of any given tool.
Hey, Larry, and thanks for the detailed reply. 15 years ago or so I was in Doug's shoes, just starting with hand tools and trying to teach myself (as I knew no other woodworkers who could show me) how to sharpen my plane blades and chisels. It now seems sort of pathetic in hind sight (because it seems so second nature and relatively easy and quick most of the time now), but it was frustrating and results were often mixed. What I found misleading was the suggestion that one could render something like a vintage Stanley iron from a yard sale find and pull it across a stone three times and have a sharp blade. As you have clarified now, you understand well that there is a lot more too it in such situations.
As far as honing guides and backs etc., I agree that back flattening helps trremendously and I do it. One thing I wonder about though is why no vintage chisel or plane I've ever come across shows any evidence of having had its back flattened.
You know Larry, I decided a while ago to respond to you whenever you wrote crap. You are so obsessed with finding some fault in me that you lose sight of reality. You end up confusing fact and fiction. As with Charlie, it comes back to bite you in the bum.
You write: The title of the thread was something like "Defective Lie-Nielsen plane iron." If you looked at those photos, you'd have noticed you could see the reflection of Derek and his camera in the back of the iron. Well you could until you got down to the cutting edge. He'd worked so hard and long on his sand paper making a mirror out of the back he'd dubbed the hell out of the edge.
No such thread exists. You are combining a forum thread and an article on my website, and then re-inventing them the way you want. Some time back I had a problem with a LN blade. It was discussed on a forum (WC I think). I also discussed it at length with Thomas Lie-Nielsen and the blade was replaced. I chat via email with Thomas now-and-then. I know LN tools and blades. I own a great many of them, plus I demonstrated for LN (on the suggestion of TLN) at the recent Perth Wood Show. Here you go, a picture of me at the Perth Wood Show working at the LN stand (I'm the bleary-eyed one. Need more sleep!) ..
View Image
The picture you are refering to comes from an article I wrote on Lapping the Backs of Blades. The camera thing was a hoot, a bit of fun.
The link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Lapping%20the%20Backs%20of%20Blades.html
The damning picture ..
View Image
So you write, "Derek had completely lost sight of the fact he was supposed to be sharpening and got distracted by wasting his time trying to make a mirror out of his plane iron."
Of course what you also (conveniently) fail to recall is that I really wrote, "The target area for a polished, mirror finish is the 25mm wide section immediately behind the bevel. The remainder of the blade only need be flat".
What else? Oh the joinery float! Oh Larry .. you really should check you facts! Again you are blinded by your anger.
You wrote: "I sure wasn't surprised when he reviewed the LN joinery float and only sharpened half of it--if nothing else, he's consistent with only sharpening half of any given tool".
Here is the review I wrote on the LN Joinery Float: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Lie%20Nielsen%20Face%20Joinery%20Float.html
And here is what I wrote (remember, this is a review) ...
While the floats come sharpened and may be used straight out of the box, it is recommended that the teeth be first filed. I will reinforce this recommendation as I did initially use the float without filing the teeth, and was disappointed in the performance.
To illustrate the difference, I did a test with half the teeth filed and the other half original. Here is the result:
View Image
Top unfilled, bottom filed.
Readers can make up their own minds whether I have misrepresented anything, or whether you are simply paranoid in the clinical sense.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Your post to Larry:
"...paranoid...in the clinical sense."
Wow, Lucy's psychiatrist booth comes to mind. Where can we deposit our nickel?
Edited 9/6/2008 11:41 am ET by BossCrunk
Derek,Please accept my sincerest apology for failing to show proper reverence and failing to keep an accurate index of all your posts. I realize you're smarter than the average bear and can be counted on to come up with innovative ways to do nearly every thing, even out do traditional trade practices that evolved over centuries. After all, it's not everyone who can claim to be part of the design team of a tool manufacturer then turn around and write completely objective reviews of that company's products. In the future, I'll try to defer to your superior abilities. BTW, is it ethical for a psychologist to offer frequent sidewalk diagnosises? While on that topic, do psychologists practice professional courtesy? I'm no psychologist but if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say Napie was pretty close:http://www.narcissism101.com
Larry
Good morning. It is Father's Day in Australia, so I am going to try and ignore you and enjoy it with my family. But if you want to rock and roll, so be it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Larry, having gone to the site and spent some time with the symptoms, I have to disagree with your assessment. Of the criteria required to include in a differential diagnosis, I fail to find any that can clearly be directed to Derek.
If he is "guilty" of anything, it is simply being too comfortable with himself (not a bad thing) and sharing his life with us. I, too, have seen the photographs of his shop/garage, patio, old 356 AND his woodworking projects. Yet, not once have I sensed any braggadocio or arrogance in his dialogue as posted here. He is very open with all of us, as is his prerogative.
At the opposite end of the pendulum swing are those who express contempt for anything he says, and feel the need to get into a pissing contest about it . . . . . regardless of the merits. I dare say that if Derek said "Good Morning" some here (yeah, you Boss Crunk) would immediately counter that it is a miserable morning. I say "white" and even though colorblind, they would argue "blue", or "pink" or whatever, just to be contrarian.
What are you and Charles (or the name of the day) trying to accomplish? Derek's last post seems to pretty directly spank you with a very FACTUAL response to you prior assertions. I assume you are Larry Williams of the Clark and Williams wooden plane company. I have often admired those, especially after getting the dvd from TLN, and have toyed with the idea of getting on your waiting list. However, when I read this crappola from you, I lose the desire to send money your way. I doubt I am the only one who has a visceral reaction like this, but maybe so.
If you want to tell Derek you think he is an a$$hole, why don't you send him a email or a letter, and leave the rest of us out of your vitupetive diatribe? Unlike others here (yeah boss, you again) he has told everyone where he is.
It's obvious that Charles and Larry will never have even the slightest bit of respect for Derek, and equally obvious that Derek is not about to stop doing what he does... is the quarterly blowup really necessary at this point? It really does seem to be quite redundant and extremely petty from the outside.
Agreed,
Larry's attitude and "crappola" has totally turned me from purchasing anything from him including his dvd - though knowing his attitude he probably doesn't give a damn anyway.
On the other hand I have actually learned something from Derek on woodworking methods and such from his reviews as he shows different ways the tools can actually be used as he reviews them.
Randy
stpatrick,I like and respect all three gentleman and wish they would not argue for fear one or more would go away mad and not come back. However, I've also learned that just about every time they do argue some really great pearls of wisdom get tossed around and its a great learning experience. Sometimes it takes a bit of emotion to get at what your really trying to convey.
Of the three, one is already mad, and often goes "away", only to reappear at a later date, under a new name..... Sorry, couldn't resist that.Philip Marcou
Just how many strokes do you think are necessary to hone an iron or chisel?
HJone .. With a quality honing grit very few.. I hone side to side along the cutting edge. Not the width!
This side-to-side stuff is presented at times like it was some sort of revelation. It's not. The 'how to hone' article on Joel Moskowitz's site, Tools For Working Wood, demonstrates this. That article has been on his site I think pretty much from day one.
It's as sane a presentation of a way to get an edge as just about any I have ever read, assuming the goal is to move on down the road and not collect a variety of sharpening 'systems' or achieve wonk status on the ww discussion boards.
http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/
Edited 9/10/2008 10:08 am ET by BossCrunk
That is pretty simple, it only takes a few strokes on the old oil stone to hone the edge, I like to keep steel. I re-hone when the hollow grind is gone, Krenov does a great job of describing this. There is another guy who spent his time working wood and didn’t make sharpening a religion. But then I’m sure the woods he used were either too soft or he really isn’t a “true” woodworker….
Sapwood,
At most, I will hone only once after the first sharpening, before re-grinding the edge. I move my irons from side to side, (chisels get pulled towards me) so I get a very flat bevel, but I find it quicker to just grind and create the hollow edge, than trying to hone all that metal. I have never went with the so called micro bevels, on the main bevel, but I do use them on the backs of some plane irons.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Today I shall re-visit the Norton DVD I purchased sometime ago from TFWW on free-hand sharpening on oil stones. When I purchased it, it was for a refresher/reintroduction to simplify my sharpening and honing.
Being a hobbyist, sometimes I have a tendency to look for the quickest & easiest methods to achieve some of the mundane tasks of my hobby (yes sharpening is not the hobby, woodworking is). I putzed around with a Worksharp (nearly a year now, and hasn't been used in maybe six months), with a slowspeed bench grinder with an expensive wheel (works but still don't feel its for me), Scary sharp (I like the mirror polish, but for all the pieces of SC paper, it's too clinical) and jigs (only ones that I really like are the Eclipse and the Richard Kell and I do use them for problematic blades or chisels, you know, the narrow ones or blades for a shoulder or rabbet plane where you want dead square).
Anyhow, I just can't get past the fact that given time to properly flatten, it takes only a few minutes on my very vintage #### stone, and then the translucent Arkansas and maybe, just maybe a strop or two on my barber's leather without compound and the blade is as sharp as any other method I've ever used. But then again, maybe I'm just a dumb F _ _ k, that doesn't know what sharp really is.
And so, this morning is a refresher review of the Norton DVD.
Tony Z.
Rob,You are obviously not one to put up with any convexity on your plane irons and chisels. I thought I re-ground a lot, but you've got me there. I never considered the idea of pulling a chisel toward me to hone it. I'll give that a try. And the side to side method as well. Thanks.
Ok lets toss another log on the old fire, what do all you folks think of the Diamond plates like DTM DTS what ever it is sells. The guy doing the demos at the expo this weekend was all hyped up on them.
Doug M
They won't work any better than anything else you won't try.
No time invested = no results.
Fear of appearing foolish = no results.
Inability to get off ones arse and try the many fine methods you have been offered = no results.
Asking questions that have been covered ad nauseum and can be found with a quick search of the site = dull tools and a waste of time you say you don't have.
Pick one of the methods discussed and start sharpening.
Or you can just buy two sets of everything and have a set out being professionally sharpened, save yourself a ton of time asking about things you really don't want to learn, get to working wood and probably still be under the $500.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
DGREEN,
You may have just hit the jackpot for the biggest idiot reply I have encountered in the time I have been on this forum, and you have hit the first time I have EVER asked the moderators of this forum to step in and reprimand someone.
Your post is totally out of line. I find if of no use what so ever and personally offensive, and it is NOTHING but a personal attack, that was neither called for or justified. Just because you do not like something I have said does NOT give you the right to attack me (or anyone else for that matter) If you do not like my posts then do us all a favor and DONT POST ON THEM. Also as has been stated before. if we do not post subjects that either A) are only new subjects never having been posted before, or B) are subjects that you deem to be of value and thus can be asked again, we would never post anything on this forum. Fortunately for us this is not your forum. Even if you seam to think it is.
I do not know what put a bee under your bonnet but your comments are rude and uncalled for. As for you "logic" it has more holes in it then the Titanic. If no one who is doing wood working ever tried to figure out a way to do something with less effort, less practice, less skill and less time, then we would never have had an improvement and would still be working like we did 2000 years ago. If I was the only person that was looking for a way to sharpen with a min, of fuss and bother, then we would not have so many different machines, jigs and systems that a person can not keep track of them all.
So in short your reply makes not sense, provides no useful fact or comments and is solely a rude unjustified attack. If this is your normal way of posting please do me the favor of never replying to me, or to any thread I may start.
Doug M
Actually my post was far less rude than your nasty one a few posts ago to someone who was trying to help you.
Come to think of it my post was not at all rude and contained some very worthwhile observations.
I feel my last suggestion was an eminently practical suggestion, it would achieve your aim of sharp tools, eliminates the objections you had in your previous posts (which I mentioned in my observations) and would get you back to working wood more happily with your hand tools.
The observations that you seem to feel are a personal attack are merely the logical results of what you stated in your previous post.
Less effort, less practice, less skill and less time are not usually if ever a path to happiness and success with hand tools. It's why machine tools were invented. Your expressed wish at the beginning of this thread was to be better with your hand tools.
If you have not the time nor patience to develop the required skills it is no reflection on your worth and paying someone to do that task for you is a viable option, one that is used by many craftsmen in many fields.
Take a deep breath and think about what your actual destination is.
You just a few posts ago rudely accused someone who offered you advice of hijacking your thread, the very thing you are now engaging in on the green plywood thread.
I merely pointed out the pitfalls of your current path to sharp tools and offered a suggestion or two that will have a better chance of success. No amount of typing will get your tools sharp.
There have been many posts on DMT and other diamond coated sharpeners many of them recent. If you are short on time as you have mentioned several times, you will find the information faster by doing a search on the site than by waiting for everyone who has posted on the subject to post again for your benefit.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Uh oh, you're in trouble now. He told mommy on you!
And Doug, he's right. All these methods will get tools sharp - diamond stones, water stones, oil stones, jet's machine, tormek's machine, scary sharp, and on and on. It's not some test where if you choose the wrong one, you'll be damned to dull tools. Its like the difference between a LN, Wenz, and Gramercy DT saw, all are way better tools than you'll ever need to cut good DT's - the choice is largely just personal preference and what you get used to. Pick a sharpening system and get to learning it.
Dgreen,
My post to whom? The general post about trying to stay on subject? I have not said any system was no go, I have not attacked anyone with a suggestion. You may want to go back and read your post. It was a flame attack pure and simple. And as I have stated if we never ask any that was asked before, we will never post on this forum ever again. So the go and do a search argument is pointless. The attacks on my assume level of skill, and if I will learn anything or take anyones advise are totally beyond what is acceptable. Just because I may not have fallen on my knees and shouted to the lord that I know see the light and will follow one of the suggested systems for my remaining days you think you have the right to attack me? I am sorry but you are totally out of line here.
NOTE this is my last post to you on this thread about this topic (you unjustified attack on me) if you wish to continue this topic I suggest you take it to the Cafe, as it does not belong in a thread about sharpening. I would also suggest that if you do not like what I post and that if you truly believe what you posted about me that you no longer post anything on any of my threads. That way you can save your post for those you deem worthy and I can avoid having to read any more personal attacks.
Doug M.
Ok folks I give Up what should have been a simple post about the pros and cons of various sharpening systems has turned first into a free for all and then into a personal attack.
If that is the way of it around here now I am more then willing to pack it in. I do NOT need this kind of grief from what should be a pleasant pastime.
I will before I quit this thread (note I said thread note forum, but I may end up quiting the forum also, we shall see) take this time to note that Dgreen had one slight point in his second posting. A post I made asking people to get back on topic, was inadvertently sent to a single person vs all (I have commented on the default setting before, and I should remember to reset them but I keep forgetting you have to chose ALL if you want it) For that I apologies. But if these personal attacks are to be the norm I can live with out them and If I have to give up this forum, then so be it,
As for the idea that "anyone of these methods will work" , I do not understand the point of the post. That is kind of like saying that anyone of any number of ways to do wood working will work if the user practices enough. But in that case should we not then close this forum down, because we can say the same thing about almost every post on this forum in the last year. I thought the point of this forum was to discuss different ways of doing things. I guess I have been wrong all this time.
Doug M
Doug,
you previously said
"A) I tend to be a bit shy and thus do not really like to learn things that make me look like a fool in front of others, B) a lot of people are not really very close so it is not likely to happen, C) time is always an issue for me as I seam(sic) to have little of it free."
In light of these facts why not just send them out to be sharpened?
I don't care if this thread (which you appear to think you have ownership of, little odd to be telling people to get off your thread on a public forum) goes to 5000 posts all rehashing the same old stuff. The point is you say you have little time and this is not getting your tools sharp.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
Yeah Doug, your post to barnaclebill was a bit pi$$y . . . .
"Point one if you do not want to talk about sharpening (and for less then the stated $500) then please keep the heck off my thread. If you want to start your own and continue the argument please feel free."
Mr. Kettle, meet Mr. Pot . . .
I wasn't feeling the love, nor do I think were Bill or Doug.
You claim to be shy in person, but that is no excuse to be rabid on the keyboard. Doug had a valid point, whether you like it or not. At some level even you will have to admit you are getting lost in analysis paralysis. Buy the darn thing and go use it . . . . and then tell us how it works FOR YOU.
Doug,A little advise as I feel I've been in your shoes: don't let the tone of certain members detract from the input of the well-meaning majority. I certainly hope you don't quit the forum. I could go on about sharpenning, maybe some other time . . . Brian
Wow! What a thread -- too much fun! With all the p*ss flying around I think the thread title should be renamed to: "A day in the life of a urinal" It would be great if BossCrunk (aka, Charles, etc.) would change his username to "P*sspot" and Derek his to "Tallywacker". That would make for a mighty entertaining read!
Doug,
Here's some of the best advice offered thus far:
Too bad you found it offensive rather than recognizing it for what it is: good, sound advice that would serve you well.
I presume you meant to direct your final comment to DougMeyer rather than to dgreen, as the latter was the offeror of the sage observation and DougMeyer was the rejector (is that a word?).
Yep! Looks like I goofed. Good thing I wasn't sharpening anything -- who knows what would have happened :-)
Now, that is funny! with apologies to Larry the Cable Guy
Doug, All hyped up? Hmm.. Sounds like a team player. For a guy short on time, you seem to have time to toss logs on fires. The concept of lapping/honing the back of a chisel, plane iron etc.... followed by beveling/ honing the opposite side is really not that hard to do for less than 500$. Many here have indicated how to.
Tom.
Edited 9/7/2008 10:57 pm ET by gofigure57
(said with suit-pants legs rolled up, and bare feet in the wading pool) Woodworkers woodworking - brilliant! ;-)
Good Morning Charlie and Napie!
Have you and Napie been playing nicely with the other children in the sandpit while I was napping? :)
I do hope that you have been taking turns with the toys, as well as listening to what others have to say. You do know that there are many ways to skin a cat (don't take me too literally on that Napie- I don't really skin cats, although I know that you spent your childhood on your grandpa's knee doing so freehand).
It's a funny thing about oilstones ... some people prefer waterstones .. wow! And you know what is even more interesting ... some of them are Real woodworkers... like this guy ..
View Image
http://shaptonstones.com/includes/pages/frank.htm
And he even uses more than one grit! Damn, there goes another myth!
The thing is, ladies and gentleman, that it is entirely possible to create a very fine, sharp edge with just a 600 grit stone or sandpaper followed this with a strop (as I have demonstrated in a link above to the "10 Cent" system). BUT ... this requires working with microbevels to reduce the surface area. Do not try it on a flat bevel as it will be days before you finish the edge.
The question is whether you believe you can hone a microbevel accurately freehand (changing the bevel angle means that you are starting over) or whether you will prefer a honing guide. This is the users choice (not the Dogma of Napie and Charlie).
Personally, where possible, I grind a hollow and hone a micro secondary bevel on that freehand. Hollow grinds make this an easy process since the two sides help balance the bevel end. I turn to a honing guide when needing a specific angle for blades used bevel up (since this is what determines their cutting angle). Of course, neither Charlie or Napie have any experience here so cannot comment (in keeping with The Rules for Critique of Charles Stanford).
The number of 'stones you use depends on the amount of honing you want to do on one. This, in turn, depends on the amount of steel each removes and the speed at which it does it. A jump from a 800 grit waterstone to a 12000 grit waterstone is possible, but why would you when there is so much extra effort in the task? Add something inbetween.
And Napie .. using one stone after a grinder sounds very macho indeed .. but I have grave doubts as to whether the sharpness achieved would be useful for many woodworkers in my neck of the woods, or for those working hardwoods. Perhaps you can comment on this from your experience - better still show us some of your work. I post my work often enough as well as demonstrate what I am saying. So over to you.
Play nicely.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I have been known to use a bit of gnarly hard wood from time to time, just what are you trying to imply? I take issue with your implications. And your pompous a** commonwealth attitude is tiring. And I suggest you watch the snotty remarks directed toward my grandfather while you are at it. If you need a lot of expensive equipment to keep your tools sharp, so be it, I and a few other do not.
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You want to see some of my work? As soon as I’m narcissistic enough to take the pictures I’ll post them.
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When it comes to showing your work you and Boss are both known for carrying a big stick in your mouth and a very teeny weeny twig in your pants. Perhaps with a magnifying glass and a thumb up your butt we could scare some pictures into view.
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You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. Jack London
I have been known to use a bit of gnarly hard wood from time to time, just what are you trying to imply?
Napie
Simple. Put up or shut up.
And your pompous a** commonwealth attitude is tiring. And I suggest you watch the snotty remarks directed toward my grandfather while you are at it. If you need a lot of expensive equipment to keep your tools sharp, so be it, I and a few other do not...You want to see some of my work? As soon as I’m narcissistic enough to take the pictures I’ll post them.
Pompous I may be to you, but I put my money where my mouth is, or try to do so. I am not afraid of criticism - as long as it does not get personal. Unfortunately this cannot always go without response. Mostly I try and ignore your posts. Perhaps you should just ignore mine if you do not like the content.
You think it is narcissistic to show one's work? I believe it is narcissitic not to show one's work and make claims that your way is The Only Way. As you do. As Charlie does.
I think your manner and attitude is condescending and, thus, insulting to most on this forum. You can dish it out but you cannot take it. I say something in jest (that most of the forum would recognise as such) and you get on your high horse. Arrogance is a symptom of narcissism.
Well, you wanted to know. Now deal with it.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I did visit your website (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/). I clicked on the "furniture" link (I'm not interested in anything else) and saw a few nicely done occasional tables and I think a case piece or two and a bed. I want to make sure that this is it - that this is your "money where your mouth is" portfolio. Given your skill and plenteousness with a camera I'm assuming it is.
Please let me know if I'm missing anything.
Edited 9/6/2008 12:44 pm ET by BossCrunk
Charles
I have a houseful of pieces I have not photographed. Additionally, I think that you selectively forget that I have posted pictures of many tools (of all sorts) that I enjoy making. Woodworking is more than just building furniture. This year has been lean with furniture as I lacked a workshop and there is just so much you can do in the dark, but I still managed to build several small pieces, including an entry in the Wood Central Tool Competition.
View Image
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Competition%20brace%20for%20Wood%20Central%202008.html
I am presently preparing to construct a 16' long wall unit with 20 raised panel doors, and 12 glass panel doors. I do not disguise the fact that I am a hobbiest (like most on this forum). I have nothing to hide. Still, I believe that I have a good output for the time at my disposal. So what standards are you judging me by? Against yours?
Sooooooo ... now it is your turn ..... what have you posted? Anything that can tell us what you are capable of? It is time that you did.
I still have two pictures you sent me a couple of years ago (I keep everything!), but I am not sure if you asked for them not to be posted to the forum since you may not have actually built them .. for all I know.
Who is the real Charles Stanford? Is that really your name? I know some forum members have tried to look you up and found no trace of anyone by that name.
Let's see .. here are a few of the names (that I know of) that you go by or have gone by on Knots ..
Charles Stanford
Boss Crunk
Taun Ton Macoute<!----><!----><!---->
Bradbird<!----><!---->
Stanford<!----><!---->
Charles<!----><!---->
ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs<!----><!---->
CHASSTANFORD<!----><!---->
Riverprof
Want to comment why you keep changing your identity?
Regards from Perth
Derek
You tell me. I thought your office was open and you were providing diagnoses. I will fess up though. I can't beat that portfolio. I can't do it.
You win. Of course you knew you would. With everything you've got it was a foregone conclusion.
I'm thinking the forum is a richer place now that we have your entire body of work to draw inspiration from. I frankly don't know why you bother with all this sharpening bull given the work you've done to date. I'll give you credit for a whole lot of humility. If I had a portfolio like that you couldn't stop me from posting it all over the bleedin' internet. I'd have that bad boy excerpted into any thread even remotely related. Clearly, the tool investment has paid off and I apologize if I've ever denigrated your productivity or your artistic sensibilities. I was wrong, I admit it, and I am truly sorry.
Edited 9/6/2008 1:10 pm ET by BossCrunk
The title of this thread is: Blade Sharpening for Under $500. You can look to the left portion of your monitor to verify this if you need to. Kindly bear the thread title in mind as you read the rest of my post.
Derek, you've got a four figure investment in various whetstones and power sharpening equipment, presumably because you've determined that an investment of this magnitude is necessary for your woodworking. If it's not necessary then perhaps you'd be good enough to explain, beyond plain conspicuous consumption (and only because you've made it so), why all the "stuff"? You have about as much business in a thread discussing sharpening for under $500 as Michael Jackson has in operating a day care center.
I've never doubted that you achieve sharpness. Congratulations. And of course we've seen the shavings that prove it. Yep, and we've seen your workshop. It's in your garage next to your Porsche and some other car you're restoring. Wasn't there a Land Rover thrown in somewhere for good measure? Oh I almost forgot the photos of the temporary workshop on the back veranda overlooking the stunning pool and beautifully landscaped grounds, renovations to your house I understand. Yes, we've seen all these pictures, taken with the most expensive Nikon kagillion-pixel camera money can buy I'm sure. Pro quality, of course.
And I'm sure you'd give Johnny-Wad Holmes a run for his money too. You might as well go ahead and take a picture of your Johnson and post it here for all to admire. God knows we've seen practically everything else of yours. You have a real gift for using Porsche automobiles, swimming pools, and what appears to be a seven-figure residence as backdrops in pictures of your woodworking (sharpening?) operation. You could probably make it as a professional photographer I'd bet. Clearly you have a gift for composition. And we DO get the picture. Mission accomplished. We're torn up with envy. Let's recap - maybe could have been a pro footballer, hung plenty well to have acted in porno flicks, lucrative professional practice that apparently allows lots of free time, expensive home and plenty of toys, artist in wood, well maybe the jury is still out on that one, enough woodworking tools to outfit at least a few professional shops.
"You think it is narcissistic to show one's work? I believe it is narcissitic not to show one's work "
Oh holy $hit this is rich beyond belief. What do you call it when the photos include all the gratuitous 'ornamentation' shall we say?
You're an open *picture* book. How damned magnanimous of you. Thank you. And I really mean that. Before you came along I'd never seen a plane shaving, a German sports car, or a million dollar home with a swimming pool.
It must be wonderful being you. You've got it all going your way and the internet came along at just the right time so you can show everybody too. Could it get much better? I doubt it.
Edited 9/6/2008 10:01 am ET by BossCrunk
Friends,
I woke up early this morning, and while having coffee, I perused this entire thread. Of course, that required 16 cups of coffee, so now I am sitting on the ceiling.Doug Meyer's OP topic "Blade Sharpening for $500" qualifies him to take over any leading publishing company. WOW. What better title to get the Knotsheads blood flowing? Doug, YOU ARE A GENIUS!!!!!This thread has enabled many individuals to preach his gospel. There is nothing which is more fun than listening to a Christian Fundamentalist, a Mormon, a devout Catholic, a Buddhist, and a radical Muslim each preaching to each other. Please note that I said "preach", not "rationally discuss". To me "rational discussion" takes place when all parties really are searching for the truth, and are willing to modify their positions when they learn something interesting. In "preaching", there is no thought to changing one's position.Here we heard preaching from Crunk, Napie, Derek, etc. By the way, I don't know all of the names that Crunk (Charlie Stanford) uses, but I have always wondered if Napie is one of them. Charlie is a great game player. It would really be funny if he were having a conversation between two of his personas here in this thread. I am fairly sure that Charlie and Derek are not the same person. It is possible that Derek is just another of Philip's personas, and he uses the Derek persona to help people learn how to sharpen his planes. I suppose I could put smiley faces next to all of my sentences, but if you know me, that shouldn't be necessary. We should all make a note of the title and number of this thread, so that all further questions about sharpening can be answered by a reference to this thread. All of the main components of sharpening are here. The fundamental fact is that there is SHARPENING and there is sharpening. SHARPENING is a religious phenomenon, and its priests are Derek Cohen, Irving Shapton, Ebenezer Norton, Buzz Worksharp, and Billy Tormek. "sharpening", on the other hand, is something that woodworkers have to do in order to make furniture. To them, sharpening is like going to the bathroom. It is a necessity, and anyone can learn how to do it.President Bush, and all Republicans blame the Liberal Press for their troubles. They are wrong. The Liberal Press is the main speaking arm of the SHARPENING religion. It is primarily responsible for causing woodworking wannabees that SHARPENING is a mysterious, cult-like, process that can only be learned by spending a year at the SHARPENING ashram, contributing your lifetime earnings to the Earthbound priests of the SHARPENING gods, turning your mind over to Rob Cosman and David Charlesworth. The result is that many up and coming woodworkers, are AFRAID of the mere thought of sharpening. "I can't learn how to sharpen. I have tried all of the methods, and they don't work." Where have you heard that before? The answer is, of course, that the methods cannot be made to work with attaining a degree of skill. As the NRA says, "Guns don't kill. People kill." Well, I say, sharpening methods sond sharpen. Skilled people sharpen." To learn how to sharpen requires a good deal of time, and a certain amount of blood, and the learning of new "swear words". Sharpening is best learned when one is alone. It doesn't matter what method or system you try, they all work when you have the skill, and they don't work until you acquire the skill. When you have learned how to sharpen, you will know it. Your tools will cut better. You will feel the difference. You will know when you have overcome the "fear and self-loathing" that comes with the shame of having to admit that you can't sharpen well. Sharpening is NOT and enjoyable thing. Try taking an old chisel whose back is not flat, and try to flatten it. Try a large plane iron ((Don't cheat with the ruler trick). It takes a long time, and a lot of muscle to do it. That time would be more enjoyably spent looking deeply into the eyes of the one you love, or making furniture. Many in this thread had the RIGHT IDEA. (the RIGHT IDEA being defined as something that I think is true). They invited Doug over for a free sharpening lesson. To me, that is what woodworking is all about. Sharing the skills - free of charge. Helping others see how simple real woodworking is, and how complex and foreboding it can be if you let the sharpening B***ards get you down. Wow. I feel good. Glad I got that out of my system.
If anyone has actually read this message, I would suggest that you need to re-prioritize your goals in life. Dark woodworking humor is not all that important. If anyone actually does read part of this message, and gets their pants all tied up in a Knot, thinking that I was just focussing on insulting them, please go get a life. I don't believe in merely insulting any one single person, (or any one married person, for that matter). Y'all have fun. That is what woodworking should be all about. Woodworking is not about sharpening. By the way, next week, I am going to post a message about a new computerized sharpening jig that I am developing. It only costs $200,000, and you can't buy one unless you own at least two Holteys. I am thinking that by making it very "hard to get", woodworkers with more money than sense, will pay me the money for it. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Oh dear Charlie. I seem to have touched a nerve. You are so predictable. As soon as you run out of ideas you go for the person. This just casts you in an even worse light since no one likes this kind of behaviour.<!----><!----><!---->
This is a forum for discussion about woodworking. It is made up of a diverse bunch of people. You want to treat them all the same, arrogantly, and are intolerant when anyone disagrees with you. Although you steadfastly refuse to offer any tangible evidence that you actually do woodworking, I suspect that you are quite knowledgeable. Still, many here do not trust you since you change your name frequently and present a false identity on the forum.<!----><!---->
It doesn't help when you make up your "facts" as you go along. People just trust you even less. You should learn that your pitiful statements can - and will - be verified for accuracy. <!----><!---->
For example you wrote derogatorily: “The title of the this thread is: Blade Sharpening for Under $500. “. <!----><!---->
Of course it is. And my entry to this thread was to offer a link to my article “The 10 cent Sharpening System”. Your reaction was to be snide and raise the imaginary tools I use for sharpening.
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Charlie, I really don’t want to descend to your level. So I shall stop at this point. <!----><!---->
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Regards from Perth<!----><!---->
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Derek
Yup, given the title of the thread and what I know about your sharpening gear through your photo retrospectives, you did strike a nerve.
"And my entry to this thread was to offer a link to my article “The 10 cent Sharpening System”.
Maybe you'd be willing to explain why you don't actually use your own 'ten cent sharpening system.' Or, what in the world are you doing with the one thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars and ninety cents worth of other stuff if the ten cent system is so wonderful?
Edited 9/6/2008 9:43 am ET by BossCrunk
It's a funny thing about oilstones ... some people prefer waterstones .. wow! And you know what is even more interesting ... some of them are Real woodworkers... like this guy ..
Frid did not use oilstones either. He used waterstones or a glazed 200 or so grit belt running on an inverted belt sander. You probably couldn't buy a decent lunch nowadays with his entire investment in whetstones. You're missing the point entirely if you think all of this is about the medium one chooses.
Here is my first post in this thread to Doug, which I still stand by:
I would buy an Eclipse style jig (twelve bucks) and do your rough grinds on 60 grit sandpaper (ten bucks worth will last a while) attached to a piece of hard Maple with some spray mount. It's fast, effective, cheap, and results in a flat grind which I have a personal affinity for. Once you've got your basic grind done, leave the unit in the jig and then hone at the same angle (you don't need no bleedin' secondaries, microbevels, and all that other assorted stuff) on whatever media you like - oilstones would be my choice. A synthetic fine stone from Norton runs about $15 and will work fine. You could pick up a hard black at some point if you think you need it. Or get a combo stone (coarse/fine). You can camber by selectively honing the outside portion into a curve that fits your eye. You can hold a little block of wood to the blade to help judge the amount of camber and your progress.
The sharpening wonks will get thoroughly up in arms. Please let it go in one ear and out the other.
Plane irons and chisels are simple wedges and geometry suggests that there needn't be a curve at any point on the 'ramp' (hollow grind not necessary). People will tell you that honing a flat ground edge takes too long and uses up 'too much steel'. It's pure poppycock. Trust me. You don't like honing. I'm giving you a totally no-nonsense workmanlike way to get it done with the minimum of fuss and investment. I hope you'll at least give it a try. It works. You ain't gonna win style points on the WW discussion boards. I can guarantee that.
You can spend the approximately $450 you'll have left over on something else. That ought to buy close to a hundred board feet of something halfway decent if you look around. You could probably turn this hundred board feet of lumber into *for sure* one big project and probably a couple of smaller projects with a value of a few thousand I would say (if you can work wood at all). Sell 'em or put them in your house. Now, contrast that with spending $500 on some contraption and you haven't made diddly squat nor do you have the lumber to make diddly squat.
Seems like an easy decision even for somebody as stupid as me.
Edited 9/10/2008 8:57 am ET by BossCrunk
Hi Charles
I don't have a problem with your recommendation at all (well, only to suggest 80 instead of 60 grit for grinding - 60 grit leaves scratches that are difficult to remove). Your suggestion is similar to my own "10 cent" system.
It is not about cost, although this may be considered important to some. It is not about the medium used - there are pros and cons for each that will have everyone debating for ever. It is also not about the methodology to be used - freehand or jig, hollow grind or flat. All may do the job well. Whether one wishes to progress to freehand sharpening depends on whether one even considers freehand sharpenng to be "progress".
For me the issue is about choice - there are many ways to skin a cat. What does it matter how one does it as long as the individual is happy with the outcome?
There are some who enjoy experimenting with sharpening methods. There are others who find this a total bore. Each to their own.
I'd say that most of the forum members are hobbiests and woodwork for recreation. Most would have a different take on the expenditure on tools than would a professional woodworker.
What we on the forums do is offer our individual experiences and opinions. You might argue that the more experienced should carry more weight than others in this regard. I agree, but this is a difficult issue to quantify. It is not simply about experience as a woodworker. It is also about the open minded approach that this person has. In the end, the forum decided who is helpful and who is not.
I could go on, but I've already gone further than I want.
Regards from Perth
Derek
It's my understanding that you have a complete array of whestones ranging from natural and synthetic oilstones, natural and synthetic waterstones (of several different brands), Shaptons and other ceramic stones, a scary sharp setup, and a Tormek. And based on your post immediately above it sounds like you use them all.
I guess that's fine (though still not in the context of this thread). For lots of reasons I don't understand the appeal, but clearly it has some to at least a few people.
As to the ten cent sharpening system - that obviously applies to the little jig and not to the stone upon which it is being run. Ten cent jig running on Shaptons is not a low cost system. FWIW, I think a jig ought to be self-squaring and I don't think that little doo-dad you made is although I could be wrong. Yours could be used for skewed tools which I would have to do freehanded. But what's cheaper - a twelve buck jig running on a fifteen dollar synthetic oilstone or a ten cent homemade jig running on a $250 high-tech hybrid ceramic stone? I guess if the OP built your jig and ran it on a cheap stone he would save $11.90 over the cost of buying the Eclipse clone.
In my operation the Eclipse is taking the place of a grinder tool rest since I don't grind on a wheel (or very rarely do; I do use a wheel for turning tools but pretty much nothing else). Nobody who uses a wheel sharpens *totally* freehand if they're using a tool rest. A tool rest is a jig since it is used to assist with presenting the tool at a consistent angle.
Edited 9/10/2008 11:42 am ET by BossCrunk
Hi Charles
The "10 Cent Sharpening System" refers to a really, really inexpensive sharpening sytem I put together for a bunch of primary school newby woodworkers.
The story is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System.html
The system is basically a piece of 600 grit W&D (not Shapton!), a smear of green rouge, and a honing guide made from a block of wood. It should cost about 10 cents.
View Image
In reality, I use a variation of this system most of the time. It is often enough to use a 6" 600 grit diamond stone and a leather stop on some chisel blades. This can end up hair-popping sharp.
Yes, I have a Tormek. It is quite new - about 8 months old. What is fantastic about this machine is that one can grind a hollow to the edge of the blade, and then it is possible to hone a true microbevel. This means one only requires a couple of swipes to get a secondary bevel. I do have a high speed grinder as well, which I have had and used for many years, but this is not as safe to grind to the edge this way. One has to settle for a wider secondary bevel.
I do not have oilstones, ceramic stones or an array of diamond stones. I have a single natural Japanese waterstone (that Lee Valley had on special recently and had come in for praise on the Japanese forum). I do have Shaptons 1000, 5000, 8000, and 1200. I had worn out a set of Kings before switching to these, and was lucky to find two on eBay, and be given two by a friend. That is all I have. Since you correspond frequently on WoodNet as well, I think that you are mixing me up with MikeT, who does indeed have every medium under the sun.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 9/10/2008 11:56 am ET by derekcohen
I left diamond stones off my list.
No oilstones? You sure? I could have sworn I'd read posts of yours where you discuss oilstones seemingly from a user's viewpoint. Did you get rid of them? Have you ever used an oilstone? Synthetic oilstones, any of the varieties of Arkansas stones?
Edited 9/10/2008 11:57 am ET by BossCrunk
Charles
Our posts crossed. I made a note that I do not have - and never had - oilstones. Never used them. I would love to try them but they are not available in Oz.
Regards from Perth
Derek
UK suppliers don't ship down there?
Charles
If I were really interested, I would get a couple or Arkansas stones from the US, their home. However, after reading up on these, I decided that (a) the quality of new ones was unreliable, (b) I really did not know where to buy the reliable ones, and (c) it seemed like a pricey experiment (especially when one included shipping costs to Oz), one that did not interest me enough. Size for size, it seems to me that arkansas are more expensive than Shaptons. I am happy enough with the Shaptons.
Regards from Perth
Derek
IMO, the unreliability has been vastly overexaggerated as are most things on these boards.
I'm sure you've heard of this company before, and I'll post the link right below after saying that I can't imagine how much 'better' the hard black Arkansas I bought with the Norton brand on it could be. It's seems perfectly consistent across both faces from one end to the other - there are no spots that drag or feel like the grit all of a sudden becomes finer or coarser.
All this said, the Shaptons you have along with your Tormek certainly would describe a complete system in my book.
http://www.hallsproedge.com/
Edited 9/10/2008 1:32 pm ET by BossCrunk
Hi Charles
I didn't thank you for the link to the store that sells Arkansas stones. My apologies. I actually have had that link for a while and visit it occasionally but, alas, the prices do not change.
It may be interesting to compare the cost of a good oilstone (Arkansas) set up with a good waterstone (Shapton) set up. There are, no doubt, more expensive and more inexpensive systems available, but let's use these as a basis for comparison here. Note that I am not advocating that one should have 4 stones in a set up. I have tried to offer a few for comparison across the grits.
ARKANSAS
These stones are all 3" wide x 1" thick (I would be happy to find one thinner - which should cost less - but it is the width and length that is important for our comparison) x 8" long. Note: longer lengths of 9" and 10" are available at much higher prices.
Soft Arkansas (medium coarse) - $40.40
Hard Arkansas (medium fine) - $56.52
Surgical Black Arkansas (fine) - $71.24
Translucent Arkansas (extra fine) - $176.98
SHAPTONS
The Professional series are all 2 3/4" x 8 1/4" long. From memory (this data is not on the website), the stones are about 5/8" thick. Note that the Glass Stones are cheaper.
1000 grit (medium coarse) - $52.99
5000 grit (medium fine) - $81.99
8000 grit (fine) - $101.99
15000 grit (extra fine) - $128.99
These prices indicate that it is cheaper to use the lower grit Arkansas, but the highest is more expensive than the Shaptons. Both are fairly comparable in price in the lower grits.
A 2-stone Arkansas system may be made up of a Soft and a Translucent = $217
A 2-stone Shapton system may be made up of a 1000 and a 8000 = $155
This comparison does not take into account that one can find restorable Arkansas stones in the wild reasonably cheaply (although you do need to know what you are looking at, and you do need to know where to look). It is equally possible to find cheap waterstones, both new and used. Overall, however, a new system is not cheap in either category.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 9/12/2008 2:15 am ET by derekcohen
To add to this, there's a grit comparison chart on the Popular Woodworking blog that puts a hard translucent Arkansas as having a grit size somewhere between the Shapton 1000 and 2000 stones, which means that if you were to put together a truly equivalent two stone waterstone setup, you could conceivably have a 2000 grit Shapton as your finer grit stone, which is about $60-65, bringing your total cost to under $120.
I still think you're missing my point. It's not an issue of oilstones vs. everything else.
And as far as oilstones go you only need a black or a translucent. One can take care of their coarser grit needs with synthetic stones (India stones) which sell for fifteen bucks each.
If I could get inside your head I would back off the screw that controls your fascination with grit progressions, polish, and all that stuff.
I honestly think it's a real shame that you are so fascinated with tools. You need to let the artist out. He's in there and he couldn't care less about tool reviews, grits, edge holding, and all that stuff.
The next time you feel the need to write a tool review, pick up your sketch pad instead.
Edited 9/12/2008 8:26 am ET by BossCrunk
Derek - a comment about the price comparison post between the Arkansas and Waterstones: I personally use waterstones. After trying both, I found no real difference when sharpening softer irons, such as Lie-Nielsens or the irons in antique molding planes. However, the equation changed when honing really hard irons, like Hock's. My (unscientific) impression was that it took about twice as long to "finish" on one grit and move to the next in the Arkansas series. By "finish", I mean remove the scratches from the last grit.
One big downside with the waterstones, though, is the mess. There's not much argument that the oilstones are more convenient to the bench - I store them in my toolbox which is something I don't think I'd consider with a wet waterstone.
I've also heard that even a hard translucent Arkansas is the equivalent grit to about a 1000 - 2000 grit waterstone, but in practice I don't find this to be the case. It's not possible, in my experience, to achieve a high polish on my 1000 grit waterstone, but it's pretty easy to do so on the translucent arkansas. I wonder if there is simply a different friability to the grit that is in the Arkansas, so that even though the abrasive size is equivalent to 1000-2000 grit in the waterstones, it breaks down so fast that you wind up with a slurry that's equivalent to a 4000-8000 grit waterstone.
David
Hi David
The messiness issue was, ironically, one that attracted me to the Shaptons (the other reason being that they worked well on harder steels). They were reputedly able to work with very little water.
My early experience was that they glazed over quickly, or were subject to the dreaded "sticktion". Then I watched a DVD by Harrelson Stanley. In this he used a LOT of water - more than I used when I had the Kings. I tried it .. no more strickton and the steel seemed to cut faster. But this was really .. I mean really.. messy now. More recently I have managed to cut back a little on the water by adding a little liquid soap to the water. Nevertheless a fair amount of water is required, and the system remains a messy one. (Currently the workshop/garage is being rebuilt and benefits from the office addition above. My ultimate solution is to add a ... wait for it .. a kitchen sink. I was going to add a laundry trough, but the sink has a steel drainage board, and this will be perfect to work the waterstones on.. !).
This is why I was interested in oilstones. However the downside of these appeared to be their slow cutting.
The friability of oilstones is an interesting notion. Of course this is built into waterstones (indeed, it is possible to polish on a 1200). This is not something I would ever wish to do on a regular basis as the time it takes makes it an inefficient process. Which, of course, is the reason why one generally uses multiple stones.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Efficiency? Really?
Yeah, I think your observations are spot-on with regards to the mess. It's for this reason that three Norton waterstones reside on a router mat by my kitchen sink, though my workshop is downstairs in a basement. The only sharpening tool I actually have present at my bench is a leather strop mounted to a shop-made board with a handle. The strop is coated with "pink" honing abrasive (can't really remember, but I think I got the block of abrasive from Lee Valley), and that's what I use to bring a plane iron, carving gouge or paring chisel back to razor sharp.
The waterstones come into play when I've been stupid and not thoroughly wiped down the board I'm planing and manage to chip an edge on a bit of embedded grit, or stupidly drop a carving tool (I've learned the hard way not to try to catch them!).
What mess? I don't understand that one at all. I always thought any stone should have a suitable box-the very same wooden box that holds the stone and mess that is held in your vice when you hone. So the mess stays in the box and may get tipped away now and again-depends on the Threshold of Honing Factor (which seems mighty high when I read that folk have worn out various stones-and they are not full time woodworms).Apprentices can be made to make boxes if one is lucky.
Philip Marcou
Hi Philip
What mess? I don't understand that one at all. I always thought any stone should have a suitable box-the very same wooden box that holds the stone and mess that is held in your vice when you hone.
Waterstones use a lot more water than oilstones use oil. Only Shaptons and Nortons come in plastic cases. Even these are not watertight.
Here is Frank Klausz and his stone pond ..
View Image
Amd the Shapton stone ponds ...
View Image
They are designed to hold a lot of water.
when I read that folk have worn out various stones-and they are not full time woodworms).
Wearing out a 1200 and 6000 Kings over the course of 10 years is, I would think, reasonable.
Regards rom Perth
Derek
Well it's all new to me-maybe the water stones that I have are only semi-submersibles instead of fully submersibles. Seriously-never had a problem.But then again I have no experience of the more exotic items such as Shaptons etc.
I did notice that some stones absorb water seemingly unendingly-such as the Kingstone-and that was one of the reasons why I started using kerosene on it instead of water, and another reason why I like the Chinese Ten Buck one which doesn't suck up water. Have you tried conditioning yours with a diamond plate?
But who knows? T. Frid shunned oilstones in favour of waters ,saying that oil went on hands, bench and the work. Seems that brother Smalser favours oilstones but not water stones. Maybe an acolyte can enlighten us as to what Krenov favoured....
Wearing out a Kingstone in ten years? I don't get it either- to me those are for fine honing and nowt else, so on the premise that one normally hones a thin secondary bevel instead of the whole face, and strokes a few backs I think mine is good for ten life times if used on a daily basis. Admittedly I haven't used mine consistently as I normally just stop at what a fine diamond gives-but it is much the same thickness as when I got it way back.Philip Marcou
Hi Philip
I have not had a chance to re-try the Chinese waterstone. I probably won't get to it until next weekend - just too involved building cabinets, etc for the new workshop.
I am curious about your use of kerosene in place of water - everything I have read or been advised by others has warned against the use of oil on waterstones. Will you say more about your experience here?
What did Krenov use? Well, the College of the Redwood program advocates ..
"Sharpening stones, either: Oil stones (India, soft Arkansas or Washi ta, and hard Arkansas) or Water stones: (800 & 1200 grit and 6000 or equivalent)"
The other question you ask is how I managed to wear out a couple of King stones in 10 years .. probably it was partly enthusiasm and partly poor technique.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 9/13/2008 7:13 am ET by derekcohen
Derek,
I can't understand all of this talk about waterstones being a mess. It depends on where and how you use them. You used them in the laundry room. WHen I read your comments about using a lot of water and adding some soap to the water, I built a sharpening shelf into my shower stall. Now I sharpen whenever I shower. I always have plenty of water, and the soap really helps.
I did put a rubber mat on the shower floor to prevent slipping. One can never be too safe.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Isn't there a good quote about throwing the stones that would fit in this discussion? I am imagining the "oilstoners vs the "waterstoners" in a gladiator contest. Or a sling (very neander) a la David vs Goliath.Peace!!
Joel,
" Isn't there a good quote about throwing the stones that would fit in this discussion? I am imagining the "oilstoners vs the "waterstoners" in a gladiator contest. Or a sling (very neander) a la David vs Goliath."In this discussion, everyone is a Goliath. We are all Modern Masters of Sharpening. We are all leaders in our own right (or is it 'wright'}? When I grew up, it was in a large Italian family in Connecticut. My grandmother used to have dinner for close to 70 on each of the big holidays (Christmas, St. Oronzo's Day, The Feast of the Immaculate Conception, etc). Dinner started around 1pm and lasted til 5pm. Everyone talked all the time. They each pretended to be talking to someone else, but that didn't matter. The important thing was to talk, and talk we did. Everyone ended up full and happy. What is going on here in this thread is the same, almost. We all end up happy, but not full. :-) Enjoy the process. The means justifies the means. Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
" Now I sharpen whenever I shower. "
If you had gone to boarding school you would know better than to admit that. There is a cure, you know. (;)Philip Marcou
Derek,
"I am curious about your use of kerosene in place of water - everything I have read or been advised by others has warned against the use of oil on waterstones. Will you say more about your experience here".
I use kerosene on a Kingstone which is a synthetic stone, and have not had reason to try it on natural waterstones- and would be a bit wary of doing so. I just find that the stone cuts well and prefer steel and "oil" as opposed to steel and water.I suspect those warnings have come from those who have not tried it. I see no ill effects on the stone after some years now, and will continue. In fact this is the stone I mainly use in addition to a fine diamond plate for honing.
Obviously Krenov is a well balanced fellow as far as his stones go (;)Philip Marcou
Philip - The mess I was referring to is the swarf that's created when using a waterstone. If you're just doing some light honing, it's not much and is no big deal. If you're doing some serious work to flatten the back of a chisel or plane blade, using waterstones generates a large amount of wet, black mud (the stone particles, metal/rust particles, and water). This sludge will interfere with the effectiveness of the stone if it's not flushed away (with more water), and you really don't want the sludge from one grit size stone to contaminate another, finer grit stone - the result may be large scratches on your newly-mirror-polished back.
It's for this reason that I just use mine by the sink - after using the stone for a few minutes, I just rinse the swarf off, re-flatten the stone, and continue. I suppose I could use one of the "tackle box" style water stone boxes, but to me, that just exchanges the inconvenience of doing my honing at the sink instead of the shop for the inconvenience of building up 1/4" of mud and mess on the bottom of the box that must be scraped out.
D,
I still don't get it: to me water stones connote fine grit therefore honing not mass removal of metal or flattening.If I have something in need of flattening (which is rare) I use other methods intended to do remove metal fast-most of which are readily available to normal diy folk. Very boring job: therefore I look to power. So the final work on a fine stone is merely some polishing.
Neither do I get why folks are virtually flattening these stones after every use: either they are abusing the stone, or they are over the top about sharpening, or they don't know when the thing is sharp-or the stone is no danged good. No wonder folk are talking of "wearing out stones"....It is supposed to be the other way round-the metal is supposed to wear... Holy smoke, if you Grind At 25 and Hone At 30 degrees there will be a very narrow secondary bevel initially which takes but a few strokes to do, which gets wider with progressive honings-until after at least 20 honeings I guess, it takes too long to hone so one merely regrinds the 25 degree bevel almost to the edge again. None of this should take more than a few minutes or involve tons of swarf and near drowning in fluids.
Here endeth my Sunday Epistle and I must now go for a rev on my biketo clear out the swarf.Philip Marcou
Edited 9/13/2008 6:30 pm by philip
Holy smoke, if you Grind At 25 and Hone At 30 degrees there will be a very narrow secondary bevel initially which takes but a few strokes to do
Hi Philip
Absolutely.
But it took me nearly a decade to sharpen this manner (not necessarily in your style). I have been a convert to Japanese chisels for a long time and, in the traditional manner, always honed the full face of the blade sans secondary bevel. I transfered this method to other blades as well - which is what made a honing guide not only helpful, but essential. It is more work if you do not register on the same part of the blade each time.
When I converted to freehand honing a few years ago, I began to hollow grind everything except the Japanese chisels. More recently I have begun hollow grinding them as well as I now have a Tormek to use.
Only BU plane blades retain a flat grind, since they receive a secondary bevel. This is what you do and, again as you do, I use a honing guide at such time.
Both these methods allow you to easily hone a blade with just a few swipes across a stone.
My stones will now likely last forwever. :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
"My stones will now likely last forwever. :)"--- be careful, I have a friend here who was as right as rain not even 3 months ago, and now he is on the point of floating away to heaven.
One item: even with a honing guide to ensure that one maintains the same angle all the time it still takes longer than if one only hones a narrow bevel.You may have noticed that the wire edge is also more pronounced when you hone on a narrow bevel: think "pressure= force over area" and that explains why it takes longer....
I am not keen on hollow grinding of either chisels or plane blades because 1)the hollow soon disappears 2) you are still honing more metal than necessary- all one wants is a wire edge as fast as possible and 3)the hollow has to be ground-which means yet another step and stuffink about with bench grinders.However it is different strokes for different peoples and hobbyists have a different ball game which has more of an inclination towarsd enjoyment as you know.
(But it now begins to dawn on me as to why folk say they have worn out plane blades and shortened chisels by several inches-yet they are not using these items on a daily basis).
Philip Marcou
He he he he he he!Lataxe, an appreciative member of the audience.
Philip,
I remember someone around here saying that chisels with a flat bevel don't handle as well as those with a hollow bevel. I may be wrong but I believe Derek said it. If I am wrong someone will correct me. I take it that you have no problems with the response of a flat beveled chisel?Am I right in assuming that you use a linisher to grind the flat bevel?MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel
Philip can still answer you, but just to clarify what I said -
I prefer not to hone chisels with a secondary bevel that is not coplanar with the primary bevel as this reduces the registration and makes the chisel more difficult to manage when used bevel down. Hence I prefer a hollow grind to reduce the area.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek
Thank you for confirming that my memory is not completely gone.You said:
"but just to clarify what I said -
I prefer not to hone chisels with a secondary bevel that is not coplanar with the primary bevel as this reduces the registration and makes the chisel more difficult to manage when used bevel down. Hence I prefer a hollow grind to reduce the area."Now, having read it a second time, I realize what you were describing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I take it that you have no problems with the response of a flat beveled chisel?"------None, but I can't think of any use of the chisel bevel down that would be critical except for carving ."Am I right in assuming that you use a linisher to grind the flat bevel?"
Yes and no. If I happen to confiscate a quality chisel from an abuser, or a paint tin opener , or a gardener, I find that there is usually a need for radical action i.e removal of mucho metal and rust and or re-shaping- so then I fire up my belt grinder /linisher and do the job quickly without too much heat. If I had many to do as in making plane blades or chisels etc that is my machine of choice for putting on the primary bevel, which would be refined with a surface grinder after heat treatment.I would set up the belt grinder with tool post at suitable angle to take any inconsistencies out of the work.
For restoring the primary bevel I prefer to use the disc sander pictured which runs off my lathe. Very little metal needs to come off and I usually do it free hand using the table to get the vertical aspect and estimating the 25 degree angle. For wider chisels and ye olde stanley type plane blades then I use a block of wood to take care of the vertical aspect and to get the 25 degrees right. A gentle kiss on kiss off action does it and a finger lets one know before it gets too hot. That wheel is 430mm diameter with 120 grit A.O Norton tuff back paper glued to the disc which merely bolts to the face plate, so I can interchange discs if wanted. Also useful to have the choice of speeds from the lathe-faster for metals and slower fro woods especaially those like Wenge or Blackwood, which burn easily.
So it has just occurred to me that this would be part of the under $500 sharpening system assuming the lathe pre-existed and one was confused between SHARPENING/HONING and GRINDING.(;) But then again, when turning wood with that lathe, one would use that disc sander to sharpen....Philip Marcou
Philip,
Excellent response. Very descriptive. Your approach to sharpening is one of "here's what I have. I have tried lots of things, and I have found which combinations of devices work best for me in different circumstances." Whereas many others seek to copy what others do in sharpening, you have just tried things and found what works for you, and you do it. Best I can tell, you are a leader. Others, the makers of Tormek and WorkSharp would likely say that you are screwing up the system and rocking the boat. They would feel that you are ####DANGEROUS person, because you think for yourself. If others start doing that, those companies may go out of business.TThank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Philip -
Generally, I don't bother flattening the stones that frequently when I'm just honing a secondary bevel or sharpening carving tools - absolute flatness is (in my opinion) a waste of time in that regard. Most of the effectiveness of getting an even, sharp and polished bevel on a carving tool has to do with the positioning and movement skills of the sharpener.
That said, I do require absolute flatness and so flatten the stones frequently when finishing up the grinding job that Lie-Nielsen/Lee Valley does on the backs of their blades. My reasoning here doesn't really have to do with requiring the backs of the blades to be absolutely flat - I see no real benefit to that when it comes to a plane blade (though a paring chisel is an exception). However, the way I accomplish a polished back on a plane blade or other tool is to move through a progression of 1000, 4000, and 8000 grit waterstones. If one of the stones is a different surface geometry than another, what tends to happen is that several areas of the back of the blade don't get abraded by the next stone in the series - a lot more back and forth is required. So...I just flatten all of the stones on a granite surface plate and keep them that way when polishing the back of a blade to cut down on the work.
Philip,
"If I have something in need of flattening (which is rare) I use other methods intended to do remove metal fast-most of which are readily available to normal diy folk."So what are the other methods of removing metal fast when flattening a chisel back, which normal diy folks have?I have been using diamondstones. The real work is with the extra coarse, and the other three are pretty quick. But if you can tell me of a faster easier method than the extra coarse diamond stone, I'd be appreciative.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
""So what are the other methods of removing metal fast when flattening a chisel back, which normal diy folks have?"
I would assume that diy folk normally have either a disc sander or a stationary belt sander/disc sander combination. I know some who use the outboard side of the lathe for use as a disc sander as pictured and omitted to picture in previous post. These are great,especially if one can quickly change grits to enable a fine finish-then only minimal work is required by hand on a stone , not hours of boring labour. You can do the same thing with ####stationary belt sander although the speed may not be optimal for metals so care is needed to avoid over heats. Using a portable belt sander like T. Frid likes is a poor alternative but still workable nonetheless.
Those little linishers designed for turners , knife makers etc work fine if one can set them up to grind the chisel back and not the bolster and handle.
"I have been using diamondstones....." Unnecessary, boring labour, to the extent of self abuse and abuse of the actual stone or diamond plate. (;)
Philip Marcou
Philip,
Years ago, I tried to use a Delta 1" belt sander to flatten the backs of some cheap chisels. As you pointed out, I couldn't control the speed, which was too fast, and I quickly found that I could not lay the back of the chisel on the moving belt without doing some damage. But no harm, no foul. I quickly stopped that, and now have some chisels that I bought for a dollar that have lacerations on their backs. I don't have a lathe. But I could use my drill press to set up a variable speed disk. I may do that, just for grins. I could rig up a table with a fence. If things work out well, I may come up with a new sharpening system for attaching to your drill press when you remove the mortising attachment. :-) Thank you. This post of yours may establish the variable speed spinning disk as the sharpener of the future. Maybe WorkSharp will come up with a variable speed system, Mark 14, if they are watching this thread, as they should be.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
It's not just a price comparison with oilstones, for some people - it's portability, longevity and least amount of messiness.I hone freehand Norton Coarse India, Norton Fine India, Norton Wash*ta, Norton Translucent - all wide stones. Diamond plate to dress the Wash*ta and Translucent as per your pal L. Williams. Honing oil. Little rubber matt thingie to make the stones be still on the bench. Rag. Boxes for the stones that I made myself. Small piece of leather. It all goes wherever I do to do hand tool work and will last the rest of my lifetime.Sometimes I don't use the Wash*ta stone in the progression. Sometimes I ONLY use the Wash*ta for a quick re-hone. You can get sharp enough to shave hair with the Wash*ta by itself. Depends on interplanetary alignment and phase of the moon, as to whether I use it. Too complicated to cover here. Most of the time the coarse India isn't needed either. Most of the time, especially for chisels, it's just Fine India, Translucent, leather, and you're done!Take care, Ed
arkansas Stones.. I have bunch of black and white ones.. Very old. My grandfathers..
They work... BUT also ALOT of WORK! I could be wrong, I usually am, but I think an edge lasts longer after all the effort using them.. OR maybe I just think so so I do not have to go do it again!
However, the white stones are NICE!
arkansas Stones.. I have bunch of black and white ones.. Very old. My grandfathers..
They work... BUT also ALOT of WORK!
Hi Will
Larry Williams posted a tip a while back on how he maintains his - using an Extra Coarse DMT diamond stone. He flattens them frequently, treating them pretty much as if they were soft as waterstones, arguing that the flattening increases the cutting strength.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I am sure you are not correct about oilstones being unavailable in Oz-or are you thinking of something else?
Norton and Carborundum Universal, amongst others make synthetic stones of Aluminium Oxide or Silicon Carbide grits-orange and dark grey in colour respectively. Some models are already oil-impregnated such as Norton Bear and "Wash*ta". I am amazed that you are not familiar with them-excellent stones. Last time I looked Carbatec had many types of oil stone, both natural and synthetic..Philip Marcou
Edited 9/11/2008 1:10 am by philip
Hi Philip
You may well be right about other stores around Australia, but I have not seen Norton oilstones at Carba-tec Perth, nor at any of the other local woodwork stores. In fact, I have not seen Norton waterstones either! (All that are available locally are Kings and Ice Bears). The cheap double-sided carborundum stones are available from places like Bunnings, but I'd rather use the sidewalk! (it would be flatter).
Regards from Perth
Derek
Talking of Bunnings:
I have seen Norton Bear combination oil stones at Bunnings here. Nothing wrong with those stones. (Actually made in US too). I never sniff at any of this type of store- if you know what you are looking for sometimes they have first class stuff at rock bottom prices.Philip Marcou
Hi Philip
The combination oil stones at Bunnings are no-name brands made in China. They are somewhat dished. Generally cost about $8 each.
Are these any good? Would you recommend them?
Regards from Perth
Derek
In theory "Made in China" wouldn't stop me - I may try an item if in a good mood. But when you say "No name, made in China , somewhat dished" I wouldn't touch it.(I know the type-the box has a lot of loose grits floating around for good measure).
Some time back I bought a large Chinese natural stone water stone from Carbatec for $10-turned out to be first class,if you want a mirror polish edge, so there you go.However, it will see little use.
To be honest I am not a member of the onemilliongritmirrorpolish honing brigade. What you get from a decent synthetic oil stone, or a quality fine diamond plate , or a 1200 Kingstone used with kerosene, gives one practical results and a long work time between re-hones...No point in extraterrestrial sharpness on any steel suitable for woodworking purposes when it will disappear on the first or second cut.
Sorry Doug, the thread has been hi-jacked-but long back , so relax.
As a matter of interest- looking at T. Frids book I read that he "doesn't like oilstones because the oil gets on your hands, the bench and many times on the work, too". Strange, that- makes me wonder if he was given to throwing it around (the oil) as if he was a prima donna of some sort. Cde. Charles can tick that box, and bone up on his reading.
Philip Marcou
Hi Philip
You know, I have that Chinese natural waterstone from Carba-tec. Greyish-olive green? I did not include it in my inventory to Charles as it is never used - mainly because it is so ruddy hard that I find it next to impossible to see any results. Are you sure it is a waterstone? Yes I know it is, but it sure doesn't behave like my others. I can't even get a nagura to work up a froth on it.
If asked which is my favourite honing medium, I would say that it is my strop (leather glued to hardwood). I rub in a mixture of green rouge and mineral spirit (to soften the rouge) into the hard leather. This is used far more than any stone.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 9/11/2008 5:45 am ET by derekcohen
That is the one , I think. But I don't find the one I have to be too hard . By good fortune I even have a picture here of it being used to hone a D2 blade . That blade would have gone straight from the grinder at 30degrees then honed at 35 degrees first on my diamond plate then finished on that Chinese-still at 35 degrees. I usually spend under ten minutes to do the first hones on virgin blades.
Maybe the Chinese ones are of inconsistent grade and I was just lucky.
Try dressing yours with a coarse diamond plate -maybe it is glazed . (Cheap coarse plate to be had from Bunnings (:))Philip Marcou
Derek,
And some more pictures- the smaller stone (normal size) is a German one inherited from my Grandfather-that one really is hard-too hard in fact and I used it to see if it would make the blade any sharper when compared with the Chinese-no noticeable diffrence).
Then I tried some diamond paper sent as a sample. Same quantity of hair shaved (;).Philip Marcou
"If asked which is my favourite honing medium, I would say that it is my strop (leather glued to hardwood). I rub in a mixture of green rouge and mineral spirit (to soften the rouge) into the hard leather."
Yes, but I don't call that honing. The blade has to be fairly sharp before you can strop it without spending ages . Stropping to me is more of a quick touch up in between honing- I find it worthwhile when using a timber such as Makore which is very abrasive, but comparatively soft so saves time.
Philip Marcou
Teacher!
My Son-In-Law is a Dr. of something in early child education... I baby sit and put up with their nonsense.. I enjoy it.. He.. Will sent them to bed for being a child and a bit out of line.. We probably are both wrong.. No middle ground! I was a strict father but not unreasonable. I have asked and all my Children said they forgive me.. So I would guess so...
Being old now, I flow with the childs foolishness. Unless I think they may be hurt! Which is often!
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the Boss, I'll try to give you a straight answer. This is what I'd recommend to any friend or relative who asked me your question:
buy this:
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Ultimate-Woodworking-Sharpening-Kit-P86C18.aspx?UserID=1720643&SessionID=p4xsztfNntdjCWeLblh7
and these:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=54181&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1
It's still not cheap at somewhere in $300 range, but it's nearly idiot proof (no offense) and can take you from heavy reshaping to mirror in a matter of minutes with or without camber.
Doug, is it that you are wanting a power system that does it all - both rough grinds all the way to fine grit honing, or are you open to rough grinding with a machine and finishing up on whetstones?
Edited 9/8/2008 12:15 pm ET by Oilstone
I own a Tormek and love it. The reason I bought the thing is because of the versatility of sharpening chisels, blades and turning tools. I knew when I bought it that I would eventually get into turning and I also know that in order to turn well, you must have sharp chisels. Also when I buy something, I buy it for life so I don't care what it cost so long as it last me for 50 years.
I always thought that the machine along with the jigs were really expensive. I was working a Woodworking Show one year and saw the machine for sale for $400 at the show. I thought to myself "man that would be nice to own one of those babies". Later that night I went out to a strip bar by myself. Being young, single and completely alone I basically had nothing else to do. After a few beers at the bar a nice looking female approached me and asked me if I wanted to dance. "Sure what the hell". The next day I went back to work at the show, went by the Tormek booth and told myself "you dummy, you could have bought that!!!". Moral of the story, buy tools that you want, that will last and stay out of strip clubs. (That happened to be the last time I ever went back to one).
Edited 9/8/2008 11:14 am ET by mvflaim
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