Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 18, 2003 07:45am | #1

   If you really want to have some great info and detailed specs on approaches to cherry, pick up Jeff Jewitt's book "Great Wood Finishes."  He provides 3 different approaches to cherry.

   In the meantime...gel stain is a great place to start, especially if you don't have a spray system.  Do a careful job of preparing (sanding) the surface, wipe down with mineral spirits to check for any over-done (shiney) or missed spots.  Reserve several pieces of stock for sample boards, and try them out.  Try just the gel stain alone, try it with a couple different grits of sandpaper, try it with a washcoat of shellac applied before the stain.  I recently went through this process with alder, which is similar with respect to blotching tendencies.  Was extremely pleased with the final result.  Just for fun, I did a sample board with Watco -- yuck!  It looked awful. 

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   rckendall | Jun 18, 2003 03:34pm | #3

   Forest Girl,

   Thanks for the help. Maybe we're getting to the heart of the matter, now that you've said over-done or shiny. I work mostly with walnut and my technique is based on the practice of burnishing with steel wool before coating with oil. The shinier the better.

   Is this wrong for cherry? I've just finished a chair in curly maple and it is fine using this method. I've started another chair with cherry and need to have my act together soon.

   Thanks again,

   Richard

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 18, 2003 08:06pm | #5

   Richard, the main problem with the cherry is that it is a blotch-prone wood.  Due to its cellular structure, it tends to absorb stain unevenly.  It finishes totally differently from maple, and shares this blotchiness characteristic with alder, birch and pine.  (And others I'm unaware of, probably)

   The gel-stain counteracts this tendency by its thickness and body -- keeps it from being absorbed too deeply into the wood.  A washcoat of shellac or mineral spirits helps in the same way.

   Sanding/scraping technique will affect the absorption of the stain, but is not the main culprit.  Most here at Knots seem to recommend sanding to 220.  My stain samples looked best at 320, gave me the color I wanted. 

   If you're starting to work with different woods and are needing different finishing techniques, again I'll recommend Jeff's book(s).  The "Great Finishes" book has helped me tremendously.  He also has an excellent website, with a forum in which he and others answer finishing questions:http://www.homesteadfinishing.com

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   rckendall | Jun 19, 2003 03:51am | #6

   Forestgirl,

   Thanks for the help. I did order Jeff's books (also one on hand finishes) so will have better insight then. Also, today I oiled a scrap from the table after a bit of scraping and sure enough the spots were quite bold. But, I also washed the table top with mineral spirits and they both showed the dark spots as GRAIN. All this time I thought I had burned the surface by burnishing it. At least I feel better about that.

   So, I can now proceed to the real thing again. After sanding the top out to whatever grit, I should do a wash coat with mineral spirits again and then the oil, right? I'll try a scrap also, but I think this is what you are saying.

   I think I'd rather be lucky than good, at times.

   Richard

1. 
   Novice | Jun 19, 2003 04:25am | #7

   Several months ago, I had new cabinets built for my kitchen in cherry and I did the refinishing myself using Bartley gel stain and varnish.   I bought Jeff Jewitt's books mentioned by Forest girl and I used Method 2 outlined by Mr Jewitt and the cabinets came out looking pretty great and I'm very happy with them.  The one mistake that I inadvertently made was that I was wearing latex gloves when I applied the stain.  (I only had a few hours in the late evening to work on the project and didn't want to go to work in the morning with brown stuff under my fingernails).  I wanted two coats of stain.  Somehow when I applied the second coat, I got blotches on the wood.  I called Bartley and was told the latex gloves somehow just lifted the stain from the wood at contact.  I stopped using latex gloves.  I used a refinshing solution to remove the stain and restained.  Everything came out just right.

2. 
   Kevin | Jun 19, 2003 08:08pm | #12

   I almost always wear gloves. But, I prefer the Nitrile gloves rather than the latex gloves. Nitrile is oil and chemical resistant whereas latex isn't.

   From your description it seems to me that the latex gloves weren't the culprit. If the first coat of gel stain wasn't set up enough to touch without removing some color... then your bare fingers would have done the exact same thing that they told you the latex gloves did.

   Regards,

   Kevin

3. 
   forestgirl | Jun 19, 2003 07:48pm | #10

   Hi Richard, glad you ordered the books.

   The washcoat is one of the options, but may not be necessary.  That's why I recommended making several practice samples with different techniques.  When I did my samples (link below), the ones with gel-stain only (no washcoat) were not blotchy, and also were much closer to the color that I wanted.  The washcoat made them come out too light.  If the gel-only boards were still blotchy, I would have had to go to the washcoat and find a way to make the stain darker.

   Here's the link.  I think there may be a cherry web-page out there somewhere, I'll check:My stain samplesA good intro to cherry finishing

   Take your time!  Once you choose your basic approach, make at least one practice board that takes you from beginning to end exactly the way you plan to finish your piece.  However long it takes, it won't be as long or frustrating as having to completely re-do (again) your piece if it doesn't turn out right.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   rckendall | Jun 20, 2003 03:23am | #14

   Forestgirl,

   Thanks for following me through this. Yes, I guess I kinda made my mind up before starting but I've only told you half of the story. The table is the simple part. I also do Hal Taylor (Sam Maloof style) rockers and I also have a rocker that looks the same. I am in the process of building another from cherry and I was hoping to sort all this out by the time I complete this chair.

   What I've learned so far is that I did not burn the wood by burnishing with steel wool and the dark spots are in the grain. The odd part is that figured wood usually looks so good we marvel at how God (or nature) made this happen. But in this case, the patterns looks hap hazard and busy. But, if it's in the wood, I don't see how to tone it down.

   Also, I guess the reason I want to stay away from stains is the chair and table are meant to match and I can't see myself trying to stain one of these chairs. They are just too detailed.

   I did a sample piece today all the way through and it turned out just like the original. Maybe I'll try to get a digital of it and post for further criticism.

   Thanks again to all of you,

   Richard

5. 
   forestgirl | Jun 20, 2003 07:54pm | #15

   Ahhhhh, I must have missed the fact that you're not using stain -- sorry, I was making it way to complicated!  So, I'd imagine wash coat is the way to go.  Sounds like you're on your way to success!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

6. 
   forestgirl | Jun 19, 2003 07:57pm | #11

   Richard, I re-read your post again.  It seems you are giving the practice boards "afterthought" status.  This is very important:  make your sample boards first.  Don't even start sanding yet!  (Pardon the strident tone, I'm getting wound up here.)

   Sit down and make a plan.  You seem to want to stick with oil.  OK, pick one or two that you think are close to what you're shooting for.  Then, go to the store and pick up a couple of small gel stain cans that are approximate matches for your oils.  Also, pick up some Zinnser SealCoat (dewaxed shellac).  Consider two different sanding grits, I suggest 220 and 320

   Now, think of the different combinations you might use. 

   sanded to 220; to 320

   coated with oil stain

   coated with gel stain

   not coated with oil

   not coated with gel

   which color works the best?

   The gel stain is the shortest route to non-blotching, but with some experimentation and practice you can probably get the oil to work.  Be sure you've got the approach nailed down before you touch your furniture.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   bill_1010 | Jun 18, 2003 03:26pm | #2

   If youre thinking the heat caused the blotchyness then youre a offbase.   the wood itself is known to cause problems.    generally using a card scrapper or even plane scrapper reduces blotching in some circumstances,  THis is because youre shearing the wood fibres as opposed to abrading the fibres with sandpaper.  Abrading the fibres sometimes opens the grain allowing some parts of the wood to absorb more finish then others.

   The book mentioned above is a good reference.

   BTW  all scrappers get hot like that. 

1. 
   rckendall | Jun 18, 2003 03:47pm | #4

   WmP,

   Thanks for your reply. I was responding to Forrest Girl when your post came so I'm a little behind.

   From what I've read here in the past, my understanding is that heat turns the sugar dark which causes the blothy finish. But now that I've sanded through the finish somewhat, I am looking for the spots to go away. Are these spots just in the wood? It was pointed out that the was figured when I bought them but this figure is not what I'm accustom to seeing in other woods.

   I will get the book that was recommended. It is always good to read what the experts have to say. That is why I spend so much time in knots.

   Thanks again,

   Richard

3. 
   DaveinPa | Jun 19, 2003 06:17am | #8

   FG is right on the money with the shellac and mineral spirits but I use a pre-stain conditioner from Min-wax b4 I stain cherry, pine or poplar.  Wipe it on, let it sit for 10-15 minutes then wipe off. Then stain as usual and it comes out fine. I gave up on the gloves theroy and would rather have stained hands for a few days. I have been meaning to give Bartleys a try but haven't gotten around to getting any. I have been using a lot of shellac lately as a pre-stain sealer prior to painting some fixtures for a daycare. My only problem is I have been using all the household ammonia to clean my brushes. My better half is mad about using it all up.

   Dave in Pa.

1. 
   rckendall | Jun 19, 2003 04:08pm | #9

   Dave,

   Thanks for the input. I want to use Deft Danish OIl for finish, which I use on my other chairs and tables. My plan for now, and I will try test pieces, is wash with mineral spirits and then to the oil. I have used MinWax products in the past and liked them and they are available nearby so will keep this in the back of my mind.

   Thanks again,

   Richard

4. 
   desertrat | Jun 20, 2003 02:57am | #13

   The washcoat is the way to go.  I've used it on alder, cherry, pine and even maple.  If the first coat of stain doesn't get you dark enough, put on another one and then the finish after allowing plenty of dry time.  Don't rush it, more beautiful work is ruined by rushing the finish.

   Dick