Replies

1. 
   Segil | Aug 29, 2005 10:10pm | #1

   I'm glad you've posed this question woodguy.  I have a maple kitchen coming up in december production, and they want a honey colored maple (final shade not yet determined).  I"ve used bartley's gel stain in the past on individual furniture pieces,but the sanding job has to be exquisite for it to turn out.  Hand sanding an entire big kitchen to that degree is not an attractive option.  I remember once using a spray stain provided by a kitchen manufacturer on an island we built to match existing cabinets which worked great.  Perfect match, no blotches.  All I remember was the stain seemed to have tiny little shiny particles floating in it which would sink the instant you stopped stirring it.  You had to swish the gun almost constantly to get even results.  But I sure would like to have results like that with this upcoming job.  I'll atay tuned.

2. 
   Kevin | Aug 30, 2005 12:42am | #2

   The dye probably caused blotching for the same reason that a pigmented stain would cause blotching on Maple, particularly if you wiped or brushed it on.

   Blotching/splotching is usually caused by different densities in the wood or by an irregular grain pattern. Those allow the stain to soak in more in some areas than in other areas... causing the areas where it's soaked in more to be darker than the other areas where less stain soaked in. It's very similar to how and why endgrain stains darker than flatgrain.

   The standard fix for this is to find some way to prevent the stain from soaking in. There are many different ways of attempting this. Gel stains are one way. Putting down some sort of thin barrier (called "washcoating" or "glue sizing", depending on what's used) before staining is another. Flooding the surface with a compatible solvent (or water if the stain is water based) is another. Using a spray-only stain (not wiped) or toner is another. And tinting the finish is another. With each approach the point is to prevent the stain from penetrating deep enough into the wood to cause blotching.

   Depending on what color and shade of light brown you're trying to achieve, you might try putting down a very thin coat of Shellac and then after that's dry put on a diluted dye and top it off with more Shellac. Shellac can be found in a variety of colors which are an inherent part of Shellac. In fact, the lightest colors like blond shellac have been processed to remove the natural color. So... if you were to use one of the non-processed Shellacs... it'd be comparable to the method I mentioned above of adding color to the finish, except that the color is already in it.

   That's probably going to be the easiest approach for you if you don't have spray equipment. I would strongly encourage you to work out whatever you plan to do on scrap first. Adding more coats of Shellac, using different grades of Shellac, and varying the color and strength of the dye are all ways of moderating or otherwise finetuning the color process until you've got a repeatable recipe which you can confidently expect will be replicated on the actual piece.

   You might want to invest a few bucks and buy a book on finishing. There are several good ones out there which aren't overly technical. Jeff Jewitt's old "Great Wood Finishes" is a good one. It has an overview of both the causes of blotching and various ways of working around it... repleat with pictures and drawings showing exactly what's going on and why.

3. 
   MiKro | Aug 30, 2005 06:01am | #3

   Hello All,
   My first step with maple is a #2cut shellac light coat. start with blonde. If not enough amber color then sand and try orange. Sometimes Garnet #2cut if more color required. once color is correct then apply one more light coat of shellac. wet sand lightly with 360 or 400 and clean. One more light coat of #1cut shellac. Then apply lacquer, varnish or what ever finish.
   Just my .02cents worth
   MK

1. 
   JMadson | Aug 30, 2005 06:38am | #4

   I too was about to ask a similar question...

   I have been requested to match some finished softwood trim that was completed with a Sedona Red stain (Minwax) with what apears to be a satin poly finish. I have used a few pieces of poplar as a tester and so far, I've been getting some blotching - not horrible, but not great either.

   Can the Minwax stain be mixed with something to make it more of a gel stain? I've tried the shellac layer first and the stain won't adhere after the shellac.  I've also tried wood conditioner and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

   thanks,Joe

1. 
   KeithNewton | Aug 30, 2005 06:52am | #5

   J and woodguy, You need to learn to do a wash-coat. It is a thinned sealer coat for any stain or dye with a compatible sealer.

1. 
   JMadson | Aug 30, 2005 07:07am | #6

   What wash-coat would you use for a Minwax Stain?

    

2. 
   MiKro | Aug 30, 2005 04:07pm | #7

   Joe,

   What cut is the shellac you tried? I would cut it to a #1 and use as a light wash/sealcoat. Then try the minwax stain.

   MK 

4. 
   Pondfish | Aug 30, 2005 05:46pm | #8

   Is the piece you are matching stained, or is it finished using a dyed lacquer?   Many production pieces are finished with lacquer, which won't blotch and can be dyed/toned to any color.  Trying to match a lacquer finish with a Minwax stain is going to be tough.

   Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
1. 
   woodguy | Aug 31, 2005 12:09am | #9

   Pond Fish, You say that some factory finishes are tinted laquer? Does that mean that they do it in one application? Thank you all for your input. I do believe that a wash coat of shellac put down before the dye stain might be the answer.Can anyone shed light on exactly the proceedure? Do I have to sand betwween coats? I have sprayed on finish coats before but never any stain coats. Do I wipe them down? What about verticle serfaces? I have heard of alternating coats of stain and finish. After all this alcohol based product is applied and dried can I put a water based laquer(my current practice) on as a finish coat. How about explosion hazzards with the alcohol based products, I work out of my basement and if I blow up the house the wife is gonna be pissed. Woodguy

1. 
   MiKro | Aug 31, 2005 04:39am | #10

   Wood,
   You can use the shellac as a washcoat, try a #1 cut. very thin!!!
   Then use the dye. It should not penetrate far but get the grain. Then finish with whatever you choose. Lac, oil, poly whatever. Try this on scrap and see what it will do. I use shellac on maple always as my base and go from there. Usually a #1 or #2 cut blonde and then finish. Depending on if I need color ( reds , blues , greens whatever) I then apply aniline dye and sand to get the grain to pop and shellac #1cut again and finish. If I'm looking for natural I use amber or garnet shellacs to add tone if i'm looking for deeper natural maple.
   MK

2. 
   Pondfish | Aug 31, 2005 03:28pm | #12

   Yes, many commercial finishes are catalyzed lacquer that is tinted.  For darker or richer colors, a toner coat is sprayed before the final lacquer finish.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005

2. 
   Indigo | Sep 01, 2005 11:20am | #14

   Pondfish

   Minwax and ML Campbel http://www.mlcampbell are now "partners"..... one of them purchased the other and so it is now possible to get all minwax colours in ml c's line of products.  So in this case you could order sedona red as a dye or stain, use an untinted stain base first to prevent blotching and then spray with mlc's lacquer products. 

    

   Alison

    

1. 
   Pondfish | Sep 01, 2005 04:27pm | #16

   I wasn't aware of the partnership between ML Campbell and Minwax, but it wouldn't really matter--most Campbell distributors I've met will match a Campbell lacquer to any color you bring in, Minwax or not.  The partnership might mean that Campbell products come premixed to match minwax shades.

   Whenever trying to match colors, however, it isn't as easy as buying a can of matching lacquer and spraying away.    Too much or too little lacquer and toner can still give you bad results.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005

2. 
   Kevin | Sep 02, 2005 01:56am | #18

   Interesting!

   M.L. Campbell is owned by Sherwin Williams. So, I doubt that MinWax bought them unless SW was looking to dump that division. A former coworker is an senior inside sales rep for M.L. Campbell's regional distributor. All he does is handle their M.L. Campbell line. I can ask him for the details if anyone wants.

5. 
   cbsn | Aug 31, 2005 06:07am | #11

   if you have spray eqpt. you can try misting light coats of dye. I've done this on birch and maple and seems to work well- you can sneak up on the color you want. When I've tried brushing or wiping the same dye I end up with blotches-

   I think Paul Snyder has posted some replies on this earlier- check for maple + blotching

   The other suggestions of wash coats of shellac are also great for controling blotching.

   Good luck!

6. 
   ring | Sep 01, 2005 02:51am | #13

   woodguy,
   If the piece you are trying to match is really Ethan Allen, it was almost certainly done with tinted pre-cat lacquer, and not stained at all. All that was suggested regarding wash coats and shellac is perfectly valid, and a good way for the individual maker to go, but that honey-colored maple that Ethan Allen does is geared to industrial production requirements. Two, maybe three coats of pre-cat lacquer with the appropriate dye added, sprayed, dried and ready to go out the door the same day.
   But if you don't have spray equipment, just try to match it as best you can using any means that get you there.

   DR

1. 
   woodguy | Sep 01, 2005 03:03pm | #15

   Ring, Thanks for the info. I have been experimenting with wash coats and dye stain and it seems that I have eliminated the blotching. Thanks to all who gave suggestions on this subject.I will be finishing the cabinet this week-end, keep me in your prayers. Woodguy

7. 
   Denman | Sep 02, 2005 12:46am | #17

   I work with maple very often and do  not have this problem. The maple I use is eastern rock maple. The western maple does not finish very well.

   I always prepare the wood and vacuum very carefully. Follow with a tack cloth and seal the wood with the Lee Valley tung oil sealer. Works very well and ensures an even, blotch-free finish. Try it first on a scrap piece and make sure that your preparation is to 320 grit (I finish up with a very fine scraper) then vacuum and finally pass the tack cloth.

   Works for me.

   Good luck  

1. 
   woodguy | Sep 02, 2005 02:25am | #19

   DEN, I live in central Pa. so I would assume that the stock I get locally is eastern maple. I see you do pre-seal with a tung oil prior to staining. I guess that there is no way around it, you must pre-seal maple prior to staining.Woodguy