Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 18, 2009 04:26am | #1

   You might find better answers over at Breaktime at the Fine Homebuilding site.  To go their look at the line of locations just above the messages.  It's next to the last in the line. 

2. 
   roqqytop | Feb 18, 2009 05:27am | #2

   B & B is generally for barns and sheds.
   There is no set detail on soffits or around doors - its just how the carpenters decide to do it. When you get to that portion of the job, just do it. It will look fine regardless of the detailing as long as its NOT fancy.

3. 
   YesMaam27577 | Feb 18, 2009 12:45pm | #3

   Roggytop is right -- there's no real standard for trimming board and batten siding.

   One factor that is more important than the look and the trim, is the water-shedding ability of your finished installation. Every aspect, every detail, must be though out so that it sheds water, and does not let it in.

   Then each aspect and detail must be thought through one more time, to be sure that it lets water out.

   The roof must extend out beyond the siding -- there must be a soffit of some type, even if its just metal flashing, so that rain can't get to the end-grain on the top of each board.

   If a board is not long enough, use a scarf-joint that is sloped so that water goes out, not in.

   Don't nail the boards at their outer edges -- that prevents natural movement, and causes cracks. Instead, nail them in the center. And be sure to leave a little bit of room between boards for that movement.

   Battens should be nailed so that the nails go into/through the space between boards -- so that batten nails don't restrict board movement.

   And be sure that the bottom of your boards and battens aren't anywhere near dirt. If necessary, add a treated "baseboard" (with 'Z' flashing above) to fill that space.

   If you choose to use trim:

   As for trimming windows -- you'll need a sloped exterior sill that will cover the end grain of the boards beneath. That sill needs to extend out far enough to cover the end grain of both the boards and the battens. Exposed end grain on the top edge is not good.

   Other than the sill, there is no need for other trim. Depending on the size of the window, it may make it look very 'busy'. But if you want trim, use an appropriate size of flat stock, and nail it on after the boards, before the battens.

   If you use trim, the sills need to have ears for the vertical trim to 'sit' on.

   When you are ripping stock for the trim, its a good idea to slope the top edge of any horizontal piece just a few degrees (so that water won't sit) -- 5 degrees is plenty. You'll then need to cut the matching angle in the ends of the vertical pieces.

   Good luck, and post a picture when you're finished.

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
1. 
   Brucemc | Feb 18, 2009 04:54pm | #4

   Amazing!  You can search the Internet for days and still not get the answer you provided in an instant.  I hear what you all are saying about just getting down to it. Strangely enough I tend to approach woodworking in the same manner at times.  I guess I got a little worried when much of what I read about B & B suggested that achieving balance and proportion was visually important.  Your suggestions on shedding water are very important.  On vertical board joints is a scarf joint the best option?  I have read that some people use vertical battens instead of horizontal ones to promote air movement along the length of the boards.  Any thoughts on that?

   Just want you all to know that your suggestions are much appreciated.   From Ontario:  Take care.  Bruce

    

1. 
   DustyGeorge | Feb 18, 2009 08:14pm | #7

   "some people use vertical battens instead of horizontal ones"

   Bruce,

   Everything should be vertical on board and batten siding.  Anything horizontal will tend to be a rain catcher.

   Good luck, GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old.  You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->

   <!----><!---->

1. 
   Brucemc | Feb 18, 2009 08:22pm | #8

   I just realized how silly my statement is.  What I meant to say is the nailing stips under the siding!  Cheers

1. 
   DustyGeorge | Feb 18, 2009 08:53pm | #10

   Hey, I constantly say things sillier, dumber, etc.-er.  GeorgeYou don't stop laughing because you grow old.  You grow old because you stop laughing. - Michael Pritchard<!----><!----><!---->

   <!----><!---->

2. 
   YesMaam27577 | Feb 18, 2009 11:49pm | #13

   >>"On vertical board joints is a scarf joint the best option? "When I talked about scarf joints in verticals, I was talking about a joint between two vertical boards, which joined them end-to-end, so that together they make a longer board.That joint should be a scarf joint, not a butt joint. And the scarf must be placed so that any water that somehow gets into the joint, will be directed down and out away from the house.Prime the joint ends before you nail them in place. As for air movement..... The need to accomodate air movement will depend on the species and quality of boards. I see you're in Ontario, so it's possible you'll be using pine (SPF = spruce/pine/fir). If that is the case, then you probably need to do something about air movement. (And you should back-prime everything.)Horizontal nailers, attached to the sheathing, will be a help with that. Or, there are products available that look like thick netting. These are used primarily when using shingles for siding, but will be a big help for your application.If you will be using cedar -- good quality cedar -- then all you should need to do is leave enough space (1/4" ?) between the boards (and have battens wide enough to cover the gap, even when the weather is very dry).Now, as to that comment about achieving balance and proportion.... forget the designers. Use what boards you have or can get. If they end up being varying widths, just mix them up in a random fashion.And don't spend more than two minutes on the "randomization", or it won't be random.Oh -- and if the boards are random width, the battens can be too.

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

1. 
   Brucemc | Feb 19, 2009 02:42am | #14

   Hi YesMaam,  your expertise is very much evident.  Thanks for all your help.  I got all the pine from a local mill, 4/4 and 8'' wide rough sawn.  We have lots of white cedar around here but hard to find anything in great quantity that is 8'' wide.  The garage was built in 1985 I believe and has true 2x4 rough sawn studs with a 1/2'' of insulating board with another 1/2'' of chip board overtop of that.  When I arrived they had just painted the chip board with a yellow paint that made the whole thing look like my uncle when he had jaundice!  Anyway, my wife wanted a solution quickly so I opted for cheap vinyl siding.  I will put 2'' strapping around the building and then side it.  With rough pine some say leave the backs unstained and some say stain it all before you put it up.  My woodworker instinct tells me to do with all sides what you will with one.  It will take allot more time but it will last longer in the end.  What do you think? 

1. 
   DavidxDoud | Feb 19, 2009 03:06am | #15

   start by standing a board either side of each window and door, then fill in the space between, adjusting the width of boards/space between boards so to come out 'even' - the batten can then trim the space between the siding and the door/window frames -

   unless your doors/windows are tucked tight enough under the eves, use no horizontal trim elements above the doors and windows - bend an 'L' flashing, secure to your nailers above the window, stop the boards an inch or so above the bend in the flashing, apply the battens to stop just above the metal -

   cut the boards and battens to length with a 45 degree angle at the bottom, which will form a drip edge and reduce deterioration at the bottoms -

   one nail in the center of the board to secure it (at each nailer), one nail in the center of the batten, missing the boards to either side - so the boards can expand and contract seasonally without splitting - only place to do otherwise is at corners - there secure the board with one nail at the corner so the corner will stay tight - the board can expand and contract under the batten -

   View Image"there's enough for everyone"

   
2. 
   Brucemc | Feb 19, 2009 04:02am | #16

   The puzzle becomes much clearer with every posting.  Thank you DavidxDoud.  Where do you stand on the debate over staining both sides of the boards?  I am using air dried rough cut 8" pine that I hope to finish the wood with a semitransparent stain it seems logical to finish both sides.  The weathered look of the building in the picture looks nice. Is it pine?  I was wondering about spacing and how you work around doors and windows.  Thanks for the insight.  Cheers

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 19, 2009 06:18am | #17

   Finishing both sides is very definately the way to go.  It requires more time now, but will likely extend the interval between refinishing, and in particular should extend the life of the siding. 

4. 
   DavidxDoud | Feb 19, 2009 04:43pm | #19

   I used to take Ken Kern's advice (there's a blast from the past...) and do nothing - wood does weather to a very attractive color - 25 years later, I've come to the conclusion, at least in my midwest climate, sealing, particularly at the bottom of the boards, is important - a dry climate, maybe not so much - I don't think you'll gain much but peace of mind staining (sealing?) the back - but peace of mind is very important - depending on your climate and exposure your issues my differ from mine - there's is a lot of daily/seasonal expansion and contraction across the grain - always let your nailing allow for that - otherwise boards will split - direct sunlight on the siding imparts a lot of energy to the system - the tendency is for the boards to cup - I put the heart side of the boards out as a good start - the battens have to control the cupping - make sure your nailers are robust, use galvanized spiral nails, or better yet, screws for the battens - no good to watch the nails pop and the batten flap - - 4/4 is harder to work with than 3/4 - is your project a shack or a work of art? (or both?)in the picture the older siding on the gable is pine I resawed from salvaged beams - it's behaving pretty well - done about '92 or so - 12" boards, I thought I would use two nails 1-2" either side of the center of the boards - that was a mistake - around the window is walnut - I detailed it as well as I know how - it's 2 years old now and behaving very well - I'll take and post a couple more pictures of the pine tomorrow if you are interested - regards -
   D"there's enough for everyone"

5. 
   Brucemc | Feb 19, 2009 06:01pm | #20

   Work of art is all relative!  It is a 24 x 28 workshop/garage.  (I tried to take over the whole building but my wife insisted on a place to park the car)  We live in a century brick home that I have done over.  As you can imagine the vinyl siding on the garage and summer kitchen do not do much for the character of the place.  I will post a picture of the garage after I do some shoveling this morning.  I have included a picture of the house.  If I master the garage project I hope to do the kitchen extension the following year. My personal preference is to let the boards go natural on all sides.  My experience with finishes tell me that once you start sealing wood you have to continue.  Once the wood is up you will only be able to refinish one side which in the end will cause the imbalance you wanted to avoid in the first place.  More pictures of window trim and other tricky spots would be welcomed.  I have copied all of the advice from this forum and will begin to make a plan once March break (life of a high school teacher) begins.  We are located in zone 4/5 so the temperature swing is extreme.  I had decided to use screws on all parts of the constuction.  What shoud I use with pine boards?  When I have asked to many questions just say so.

   
6. 
   YesMaam27577 | Feb 19, 2009 01:28pm | #18

   >>"My woodworker instinct tells me to do with all sides what you will with one."Your instincts are quite good.

   Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

4. 
   JeffHeath | Feb 18, 2009 07:09pm | #5

   Does it look like this!?  This was my sons idea of shooting practice when he was 10.  Now he's 19.

   Jeff

   
1. 
   Brucemc | Feb 18, 2009 07:30pm | #6

   That is awesome.  No, not that bad but bad enough.  All the side and back material are in good shape.  Our local community has a recycling location that will take all the vinyl and use it on other projects.  Makes me feel better about doing the project.  Thanks for the picture.  I will post a completed photo of the garage.  Cheers

2. 
   peter28 | Feb 18, 2009 08:24pm | #9

   Jeff,

   I hope he can "pick the corners" a little better now. That was a good one. You must be very tolerant for something like this. 

1. 
   JeffHeath | Feb 18, 2009 09:34pm | #11

   I had to replace that garage door, as he was finally 'shooting' large pieces out of the door.  It started to look like swiss cheese.  The hockey net is no longer allowed anywhere near the new door!! lol

   And yes, he's much better at sniping the corners now.  He's in college now, and still playing.

   Jeff

1. 
   MWF | Feb 18, 2009 11:32pm | #12

   You must also remember that your nailers for installing the board & batten siding need to be horizontal.  This is ideal if your building is a pole barn but if it is a stick built structure you will have to add nailers between studs or use a horizontal siding.