Several months ago I read an aticle in one of the wood magazines about a “new” unit of measure called the BOB—- Named after the man who has founded and promoted the unit. The BOB concept is based on breaking the inch down into smaller units called BOBS.
One BOB consists of 12 smaller units that equals an inch. The concept is that 12 smaller units in an inch is more effective than the fractions we use today.
At first i thought the concept was a bunch of mumbo jumbo. After thinking about it, I like the idea. I was wondering if any of you fine folk have heard of it or tried it. Special BOB rulers are available. I have yet to buy one. But if the talk here is favorable, I am willing to give it a try.
Thanks — I look forward to everyone’s feedback.
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Replies
Metric, it's been around for a long time and all of the world except the US uses it. Base 10 is alot easier than base 12.
Philip
Check out http://www.bobsrule.com
Bob (Robert Dunstan) addresses why Bobs are superior to metric in the Popoular Woodworking article referred to in the top post. It can also be found on the top page of his web site in the portion of the introduction called "THE ARGUMENT."
Sam--
Thanks for the info. I read the article. I am really trying to find out if anyone here on Knots has used the BOB system. And do they like it. And how about comparing it in practice to the metric system...
Whadaya think?Thank you,
The Great Marko
Oh, I understood you read the article and were hoping for first hand experiences. I was just providing the link for those who had not seen the article and wondered about the details.
As for the system. It makes a lot of sense to me. The tape measure is cheap, so i might pick it up. The rulers, while no doubt first rate in terms of quality, are more than I want to spend to try this out.
As a general rule, I do very little fine measuring, or at least as little as possible. For the kind of stuff I do, having four pieces identical is more important, for example, than having them a bob more or less. So I use story sticks, stop blocks, and gang cuts, etc. Now sometimes, of course, you can't avoid having to cut something to size. But even then, I tend to like to seak up on an exact fit using my SCMS, plane with a shooting board, or whatever.
Sam:
Yes. I would agree transfering any type of measurement can lead to human error. Story stcks, stop blocks etc... do make logical sense to prevent errors.
I wonder why Bob has made it a small crusade to promote the BOB? I really like the concept. I just do not think is will catch on within the woodworking world let alone the masses.Thank you,
The Great Marko
Marko,
I was brought up, under the metric system and there is no comparison. Here in the US there is a lack of standardization, some things you buy (cars) have both in the same unit.
Not having to work with fractions, is a huge advantage, anyone who can count needs no furter skills.
For example:
Calculate drawer heights:
Standard heigh of a desk, is 30 inches.
Allow 3 inches for the skirt and 1 1/2 inches for the top, now devide for 5 drawers with 1/4 inch space in between each drawer. This becomes a real chore...
30 - (3 + 1 1/2) = 25 1/2. Now you have to subtract 5 x 1/4.
25 1/2 - 1 1/4 = 24 1/4
Devide 24 1/4 by 5, I now need a calculator and the answer = 4.85 inches.
Can also be stated as 4 17/20 inches. So, now I have to figure out how to measure this accurately, as we work in 1/16, or 1/32 etc. Also means I have to think hard all the time.
Metric system :
Desk height = 750mm
Allow 75 for the skirt and 35 for the top = 640mm
Allow 6 mm between drawers = 5 x 6 = 30, and 610 remains.
So, I have to devide 610 by 5 and without a calculator, this is 122mm
Further, I can read it directly off my rule.
If we had to place a bet on who will make the least mistakes and who will finish the job first, I know where I will put my money.
With the Bob system, you work with fractions of 12, what was Bob thinking?
Willie:
I agree 100 millimeters (100%) WITH YOU. The metric system is intuitive. The english system is quite cumbersome. Maybe I should attempt my next woodworking project using metric system instead of english.
Thanks-Thank you,
The Great Marko
In your example of metric you did the typical BS compairison by comviently rounding all the measurements to the nearest whole mm. But not rounding the fractions. The reality is that No rational ww'er would ever work with odd fractions. A mm is about the same as 1/32". So try the math again using the same rounding you did in the first example.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Mike,
I hear ya, but the fractions kind of happen unplanned with me. I did have seven years of college after school, perhaps this is where things went wrong. Ha ha ha.
Hey, if feet and yards and inches make you happy, go for it.
I see you can actually buy a calculator at HD, which divides and multiplies in inches and feet and fractions. Only in the US, I promise you. If you use ISO, you don't need one.
The U.S. IS moving toward the metric system..... Inch by inch. :^)
Chris
The US really does not have a system.
In the mid 90's cars had both metric and imperial in the same vehicle. Today, most vehicles made here, have metric. The colleges are starting to teach in metric, although it's still a mix.
Lumber will always be in quarters.
I work with flexible packaging and oxygen permeation here is stated as grams O2, per square inch. Go figure.......
So, in conclusion, this is what's great about America, anything goes and you can do as you wish.
IN the Nuclear power industry they measure kilowatts per foot of fuel bundle.Kilowatt (Watt) is a metric unit (erg second or something like that)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Kilowatt (Watt) is a metric unit (erg second or something like that)
not quite... Kilowatt is 1000 Watts... Kilo Joule is 1000 Watts per secondMike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
"Kilo Joule is 1000 Watts per second"It's the other way around: a Watt is 1 joule per second.Power is the rate of using or generating energy . Watts measure power; joules measure energy.
It's the other way around: a Watt is 1 joule per second.
that's not how they teach it here...
1 Watt = 1 Amp x 1 Volt...
1 Joule = 1 Amp x x Volt x 1 second...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
"1 Joule = 1 Amp x x Volt x 1 second..."I certainly agree with that. Watts TIMES seconds eauals joules. Or joules per second equals WattsAbove, you indicated that Watts PER second (that is, Watts DIVIDED by seconds) equals joules. That was the formulation I was questioning.
Don,
Glad we got THAT sorted out. Now, how do I convert furlongs per fortnight to miles per hour?
Cheers,
Ray
Ray-"Now, how do I convert furlongs per fortnight to miles per hour?"1 furlong/fortnight = 0.0005456349 ft/sec (calendar fortnight, uncorrected for leap years).I leave the conversion to miles/hour to you, since you know whether you want to use statute or nautical miles.Somehow, Bob's (as in number of shakes of a bob's tail) ought to work in there nicely.Don
Mike,
That's wrong, open any first year college text book, or a Eurpoean pre, or final year high school book. Thinking back a long time ago, I may even have been taught this in grade 10.
You are correct, in a DC circuit, or a single phase AC circuit, watt (W) = volts (V) x amps (A)
It's unusual to multiply this by time "seconds" thouh in an electrical circuit or electrical calculation.
watt (W) = J/s, or joules per second.
The unit used in the US for joules is Btu's, as a heat or energy value.
Power (watt) = kg (mass) x m/s2 (gravity) x m/s (meters per second)
Enery in joule (J) = N m = m2 kg/s2
Edited 7/3/2005 9:11 pm ET by Willie Martins
Joule's law
Joule's law (due to James Prescott Joule) expresses the amount of heat generated by an electrical resistor, and is expressed by the relation
View Image
by current I flowing through a resistor with resistance R for a time t, and Q is the heat generated
or
Q = kI2Rt
where k is the constant of proportionality, dependent on the units used to express I, R and t. If amperes, ohms, and seconds are used, and the result expressed in joules, it is simply 1.
units = J / A2Ùs
Unusual though it may seem, every electricity supplier uses this formula to calculate your electrickery bill, the amount of power you've consumed being expressed in KiloWatt hours... 1 KiloWatt hour = 3,600,000 joules...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
"...the amount of power you've consumed being expressed in KiloWatt hours..."Dang it, kilowatt hours is ENERGY, not power. Power is a RATE of using energy. Quite naturally the utility wants to charge you for the total energy (Joules) you've consumed, even though you consume it at widely varying rates (Watts) over the billing period.
Mike,
Don't want to burst your bubble and get into a quibble...
Current squared x resistance = copper losses.
This is the actual losses, due to the properties of the conductor itself.
Us Electrical Engineers use this to estimate the amount of energy loss in a conductor, with specific applications in power factor correction when it comes to electrical supply, amongst others. To try and calculate energy used from copper losses is something I would have to think about, as I don't believe anyone has ever found the need to do this and there are a number of variables here, including temperature.
It is impossible for PG&E or anyone else for that matter to calculate your power consumption with the formula you supplied, even if they had a couple of Phd's trying to write a thesis on this.
For a residential user, you get charged units, which is correct, but a much simpler method of calculation.
The calculation is simply: Power in kW x time in hours, stated as kWh
Industrial users pay both units and demand, being the two main components. Unit kW is for the supplier in terms of operating costs and kW = demand, to recover capital costs.
This is how they measure:
The mechanical types contain two coils and a mechanical counter: Coil 1 has high impedance and measures the Voltage Coil 2 has low impedance and measures the Current
The magnetic fields produced by those coils interact; they produce a force that is proportional to the (mathematical) product of the Current and the Voltage. This force (which is proportional to your real power comsumption) drives the counter mechanism.
Edited 7/4/2005 6:18 pm ET by Willie Martins
To try and calculate energy used from copper losses is something I would have to think about, as I don't believe anyone has ever found the need to do this and there are a number of variables here, including temperature
conductor length, conductor cross sectional area, thermal insulative properties of the electrical insulation, copper purity etc etc... dealing with these losses are a key part of my occupation... canna claim to do the head scratching myself.. I'm normally involved with the consequences of when the engineers dinna quite get it right...
the formula I quoted was exactly as it was tought to me in school, college and university... didn't hear it was out-dated although I've been out of the loop for a while..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,
You have some of it right.
Power = current squared x resistance.
Current is easy to measure live, all the time.
How do you measure the resistance of a complex distribution and operating system, with switches closing automatically and things starting up and shutting down?
If you can answer this question, you have found a new very complicated way to measure energy consumption.
Your formula using current squared x resistance, in your application will only measure "line loss" or as earlier stated "copper loss". Copper purity will affect resistance.
Yes, mr. Joule was correct, as he measured the "heat" generated when applying a "potential difference" over a conductor of known "resistance" which in turn allows a "current" to flow. The "heat" he measured was the "line loss".
Back to the initial argument, you said:
"not quite... Kilowatt is 1000 Watts... Kilo Joule is 1000 Watts per second"
kJ = 1000 W x 1 second.
Or, Kilowatt = 1000 Joules per second.
You had this the wrong way around and if this is what someone is teaching, they are teaching wrong.
Willie
Edited 7/4/2005 7:33 pm ET by Willie Martins
If you can answer this question, you have found a new very complicated way to measure energy consumption.
Well... I canna tell ya how the power generation companies work this out, but I can tell ya how we do it on a smaller scale.. similar probs.. stepping up voltage to overcome volt drop in a long cable, stepping down to get back to a useable votltage, DC rectifaction etc...
but...
that'll have to wait... right now it's time I hit the sack... but I'll get back to ya... I'm still nae convinced I'm wrong re Mr Joule.. ;) Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
If you can answer this question, you have found a new very complicated way to measure energy consumption...
I try something and look at my Electric bill for that month!
Joules measure work, not energy; a joule is force x distance.
Watts are the rate of work, or power; joules per second.
and why, if using metric as your system, would you use funky-#### measurements? sure, 8 feet is 2438.4mm, but why convert to metric from english at all? Start with metric, and make that hutch 2.4 meters tall, and 750mm high, etc...
"Joules measure work, not energy"And what does it take to do work? Energy. The Joule is a measure of both work and energy; depends on direction.It takes work to produce energy (raising the hammer above the nail to increase its potential energy) and energy is expended in doing work (letting the hammer fall to drive the nail).
Edited 7/6/2005 4:15 pm ET by Donald C. Brown
In SI derived units, Energy = Work = Quantity of Heat.
In woodworking Energy = 5 Budweisers and work = anything that keeps you away from the woodshop.
And the energy content of beer is measured in Joules, it says right here on the can.
Work is force times distance. Power is the time rate of work. I misspoke about the joule measuring work and not energy.
"Power is the time rate of work."Why, yes it is. Power is also the rate of energy expenditure. See the previous discussion of work and energy.
The US space program tried to go metric. So did defense. US industry made it unaffordable. Don't ask why. I do remember a development program with specific direction to use all metric fasteners for the hardware. That order was rescinded when it turned out that it would take every dollar budgeted for the program just to buy the nuts and bolts. International trade may change the situation. My Dodge van appears to have many metric fasteners on it. I just hope they aren't really Whitworth but I just can't tell.RoRo
I'm with you Willie.
Brought up on imperial and pounds shillings and pence, then converted to dollars and metric, I still sometimes, all these years later, default to inches and miles, but for all real measurements its metric.
It's just so much easier!New Zealand | New Thinking0.06% of the world's people are Kiwis
Give 'em a centimeter and they will take a kilometer. S. H. Norton 1977
With all due respect, Bob's rule is BS.
Quote from Bob:
"It is perhaps not surprising that we break the day into 24 hours rather than 20, the hour into 60 minutes rather than 100 and so on. By the same token we divide the circle into 360 degrees rather than 100 or 1000."
The Babilonians used the sexagesimal system, i.e., their base was 60 rather than 10.
The Babylonians knew that the perimeter of a hexagon is exactly equal to six times the radius of the circumscribed circle, this being the the reason they chose to divide a circle into 360 degrees and we are still burdened with this figure today.
Some people use "grad", which divides a circle into 100.
The Babylonians also divided the day into the 12 signs of the Zodiac, so there were 12 hours in the day and 12 in the night.
And Bob is trying to sell his ruler by twisting the facts. Sheesh!
His grasp of history, notwithstanding, his other points ring true to me. 12 is certainly a useful number given its divisibility and the imperial system has a nice coincidence with human scale. His system is meant to eliminate fractions. It's reasonably clever. The part that I question is whether 12ths of an inch are really small enough a measure. I wouldn't call a board that was 1/16th or even 1/32nd short a good fit, and half a bob is 1/24th.
Nah, that'll never do Samson.
Everyone that understands the £sd system knows already that half a bob's a tanner. There's five tanners in a half crown, and two half crowns makes a crown or a dollar followed by two crowns making up ten bob.
There's 20 bob in a pound and twelve pennies in a bob, meaning there's 240 pennies in a pound--- of course. A guinea's a pound and a shilling which is the same as 252 pennies.
Your half Bob being 1/24" sounds about as bent or as queer as a 9 bob note, and I'm not falling for that nonsense.
I think I'll just stick to the metric lineal measuring system thanks all the same. Slainte.RJFurniture
How many bobs for a pint nowadays?
After a few pints, 10 = 12 and 1/24 = 0
Only see Heathrow and Gatwick, don't get out to often anymore.
About 47 bob for a real pint here in the south, and cheaper in the north, and I don't mean one of those girly lightweight American pints either. Slainte.RJFurniture
Ok, I propose that for wood measurment we use 16ths and our notation should be as is done in the "common" hex system - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E
one inch is "E"
One foot is CxE = A560
Ok, a test for you. What is 1/2 a foot :-)
BED, CAB,
Mark :-)
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Richard,
Maybe you can answer this one as you seem to a) be an expert in the various liquid forms of the noblest of a grains - barley and b) you have the perspective from spending time on both sides of the pond. The topic is my favorite form of low octane bottled bread - Newcastle Brown. High octane fuel would of course be any of the peaty Islay single malts. If Lagavulin was any peatier it would approach burning tires. An acquired taste to be sure. Other than for the obvious - taste, I think NewCastle may be my favorite cold barley soup due of the influence of a certain Humble Pie song during my formative years. Anyway back to my questions. Sadly I don't have one handy for reference, as I'm at work, but the volume of the large bottles are an odd number. By odd I mean it doesn't correspond to an even number of either the American (more evolved :) or Imperial ounces. Any ideas? Also it is about 40% more expensive here that other brews of similar quality and origin such as Bass Ale to name one. Is it more expense there too?
I have been drinking Newcastle for close to ten years and sadly, it is starting to catch on. To my horror they're running TV adverts now. As one who detests all things trendy I may soon be forced to find another beverage of choice. I think I just coined a new oxymoron - Beer Snob!
My favorite multinational holiday is at hand and I will do my best to tip the trade deficit towards the UK 12 ounces at a time. July 4th is to mulinational. We yanks (even those of Italian/Irish heritage) will be celebrating the kicking of Brit butt, drinking their ale, whilst lighting Chineese fireworks and eating Mexican food.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
No no no no.
That Castle is terrible. If it has to be a Castle, try an import called Castle Lager.
Samual Adams.
Even Coors, is better than New Castle.
Ditto for the 4th of July.
Lagers and Pilsners are for the weaker gender or those confused about what gender they truely are. Samuel Adams - yeah right. The last good domestic beer I had was when Henry Winehard still numbered his batches. Coors? My dogs won't drink that swill. Besides the S.P.C.A. and P.I.T.A. would be all over my #### if I tried to give them Coors again. A freind of mine who drinks Coors also works for the santitation district. The last time he pissed at work it killed all the bacteria in the digesters.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
ha ha ha, that was so funny.
See if we get a reply from Richard, but New Castle is not a true ale, nothing like an ale at your little local pub close to London.
I can only hopefully imagine. I thought I might make it there for the Cream reunion shows but finances dictated that wasn't to be.
Back to the 4th theme for a second -
I wonder that if the conditions were reversed and Britian were a present day American colony looking to start a revolution what would they throw overboard? Sadly it would probably be Cheetos.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
The great thing about STANDARDS is there are so many from which to choose.
on the fifteenth day of june in the year of our lord 1215, king john pressed his seal to the most famous document in mans quest to live in a free society...the magna carta. This great event occured in a region made famous for its light beer...Runnymede.
Lager is actually a referrence to the type of yeast and brewing method (lager vs. ale, bottom vs. top, cold vs. warm). So the misnomer that lagers are all urine-yellow, weak-a$$ swill for girls is just that. A misnomer. Your typical double bock, dark as molasses (and almost as thick) beers are lagers.
A technicallity, but the beer snob in me (snobs unite!) felt compelled to point that out.
Whatever your poison, have fun imbibing and enjoy the holidays (any frenchys, happy Bastille Day) and be safe. No power tools after consumption, it could make replying here a real bear.
Jake
<em>I have been drinking Newcastle for close to ten years and sadly, it is starting to catch on. To my horror they're running TV adverts now. As one who detests all things trendy I may soon be forced to find another beverage of choice. I think I just coined a new oxymoron - Beer Snob!</em>Beer snob. *Chuckle*Just because everyone else is catching up in their tastes doesn't mean you should abondon your favorite. It reminds me of the question my parents would ask.... only in reverse...Me: "Mom, why not. Andy's doing it."Mom: "So if Andy jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?"It looks to me like you've been jumping off a bridge for a long time now and other people are going to join you (their moms said it was ok :-)Happy Fourth (that is if your in the states now)
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
I just hate it when the marketing types screw up a good thing. There used to be Dos Equis and Tris Equis. Then they dumped Tris Equis and called it Dos Equis and called it Dos Equis Amber. WTF? Consumers can be so stupid. My brother works for the largest Anheiser Busch distributer (they have had billion barrel years in Phoenix). AB has over 400 packaged product variations and not a decent drop of beer in the lot. The only way they can be competitive with that kind of overhead is to make cheap-#### beer in refineries. I once tasted an original Cz Bud, couldn't believe the difference. Before Lowenbrau was domesticated into the Schlitz or Miller breweries 20-25 years ago it was from Germany, was great and one of my favorites. Can't stand it since. Not that I live for beer, but it is one of the simpler pleasures I do so enjoy and I don't want the megacorps to f*ck with it. According to my brother, all the botique beers (real imports and microbrews) account for only 6% of the US business. Given the cost of TV commercial time I can't help get nervous.
If one jumps off a bridge alone he's just a nut, if a bunch of nuts jump off a bridge they're a cult. Mom told me it was sin to be in any other cults and to go light a candle, say a rosary, and get back to memorizing my catacism lessons so Sister Mary Bustmychops wouldn't have to use her yardstick.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
The Czeck Budweiser now has a different name (same beer). AB couldn't sell under the name Budweiser in Europe because the Czecks had the trademark for the past few hundred years. So after trying to market as Bud and failing AB went and bought ,for an absurd amount of millions of dollars,the trademark.
Now the Czeck beer is Budejovicky Budvar. It is still a fantastic beer and not very expensive ,I get it often.
Philip
Czeck Budweiser I'll bet they copied that old FOX Head... I use to drink!
EDIT:: Or was that FOX D' Lux????
Edited 7/4/2005 2:37 pm ET by Will George
I've no idea why the numbers are odd, John. 440 ml seems to stick in my mind as a typical volume for UK bottled beers sold in the US from when I lived in TX., but there did seem to be other measures too.
Newcastle Brown is an odd one. It's never been a real ale, and doesn't pretend to be, but it's long had a fan base outside its home terrritory in the north east of England. I enjoy a bottle or two when the mood takes me, but I'm not a particularly fussy drinker anyway. Excepted from that are British style lagers which are decidedly unpleasant to my taste.
Oddly enough, even stateside standard American weak as gnats piss swill like Bud and Coors slips down easily enough with the rider that there needs to be plenty of it to make it worth the effort, ha, ha!
Here in the UK they sell the hop-pop tasting Bud muck and other US brands but they've beefed the booze content up to 5% or more and it's all trendy and designer'ish to be seen necking a bottle of the stuff. Slainte.RJFurniture
Same with spanners,nice to able to pick 10mm 11,12 etc.
Hey Cicero,
It's long time since I have hear the word "spanners"
Along with rugby, kricket, buggers and spanners, the folks over here don't know what that means....
You Brits... you've got a different word for everything ;-)Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
No no, I'm in California.
But I have been around.
Heard about the private jet which went down on a tropical island with groups of three, each group consisting of a secretary and two bosses:
Two American bosses decided to be true gentlemen and let the secretary decide who she wants to be with.
The French decided no problem, they'l just be all three together.
The one Italian boss pulled out a gun, shot his peer and had the secretary for himself.
The two German bosses set up a rule of making turns, one having an odd number day and the other having an even number day.
The two Brit's decided to send a note to their head office, asking for advice about how to handle the secretary situation.
The two Scot's decide to shoot the Brit's and have their secretary join the party to make numbers even.
The two Irish, decided to execute all non-Irish males and have one hell of a party afterwards.
Edited 7/6/2005 5:05 pm ET by Willie Martins
Have a yank friend staying over here at the mo,he asked if we had the 4th of July in NZ,when I said no,he took great delight in asking if we jumped from the 3rd to the 5th.
Do I need to explain this?I hope not.
Oh and that is cricket old boy:-)
Folks,
This Bob thing and several other issues are not going to get resolved satisfactorily in this way ever. I mean , I for one have my own thoughts on things like Aerial 4 squares and the supply (to me) of Southern Comfort in barrel measures for example.
I suggest we arrange a date and suitable venue (Mykonos? Hong Kong?),and allow generous time to come to a democratic consensus.
People may not bring their own wives, but sisters would be permitted providing they are allowed to roam unfettered.
In the mean time , apart from the mention of the word "beer", I am entranced with the thread, and hope it can carry on to a publishable length.
I don't like the sound of that bob thing.
As a certain erudite fellow said recently-"the forum is 98% goatcrap anyway", so I think this is a good chance to confirm the view.
Edited 7/7/2005 5:19 am ET by Philip Marcou
Edited 7/7/2005 5:22 am ET by Philip Marcou
All of the arguments notwithstanding, people just don't adapt to change easily.
For a joke, I once proposed a metric time system, which (see a post above) divides the day into 10 hours, and each hour into 100 minutes and each minute into 100 seconds. The question is not whether it is more accurate (it is) or whether the calculations of ratios such as miles per hour or kilometers per hour are easier or more intuitive.
The real question is will people do it? Obviously, my 'Metri-Chron' system would not be adopted because of centuries of clock making and time recordings made in the traditional system. Getting people to think in such terms would be impossible without convincing clock and watchmakers to abandon their well recieved products.
The idea that a doudecimal measuring system is easier to use than metric seems counter-intuitive to me. Juggling odd numbers such as 12ths, 16ths, 5,280 ft, 3 ft to the yard, and various and sundry oddities which gradually crept into common use is hard to deal manage.
Adding 'Bobs' to the present confusion may be acceptable to a few math-heads, but not to me.
vty
dhbI'm not the man I used to be, but then I never was!
With Out Papers---
I understand where you are coming from. The states had their opportunity to introduce the metric system back in the early 1980s. We missed our chance. If you can count to 10, you can use the metric system.
Anyway-- this BOB guy is promoting the BOB because he feels 12 is easier to manipulate than 10s. He also stated that the 1 BOB is easier to see that one millmeter. There is some validity to that statement. A millimeter is pretty tiny compared his BOB. One can argue this point till the cows come home. I am just trying to understand if anyone has used this BOB concept.
Now that I see your post, I should have also asked if anyone state side has disgarded the english units for the metric system.
More feedback would be great.Thank you,
The Great Marko
I'd much rather use metric than english measurement, but it's difficult to find metric rules in the US.
every Home depot and Lowes have tape measures in metric/imperial. On the internet you can find anyother type of measuring device easily.
Philip
I don't know where you are but metric scales, rulers and other measuring instruments are widely available all over the US. Just a matter of looking for them. Even though this is a woodworking forum, don't forget about machinist's tools and scales. As for either system, they both work well if you don't try to use them on the same project. There's absolutely no good reason to measure using both and then having to convert. Dividing(is "deviding" the same using metric spelling?) any dimension into any number of parts can be done without measuring. If you have a scale that's long enough, you can lay it diagonally and mark the places where the divisions are. ex., if you have a 33" long piece that needs to be divided into 24 equal parts, lay a scale across long enough for an even multiple of 24 units(longer than 48") on an angle and mark on every point(@ 2" incre- ments). This becomes marking at specific points instead of actually measuring.If someone uses fractions of an inch and needs to convert to decimal, it's easier to use a calculator, but having a chart is just about as handy. One reason the US doesn't use Metric is that the factory workers were so resistant to changing in the 60's and 70's that it wasn't worth the effort to force them. I started learning the Metric system in the late 60's and it's really not a big deal to me, but mixing the two on the same piece causes trouble. "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 7/2/2005 4:48 pm ET by highfigh
It's not at all hard to find metric stuff in the U.S. - tapes, folding rules, practically everything is available in metric. A simple online search will reveal many sources.
But twelve can be factored by more numbers than ten.
Tom
I worked in Imperial for the first 20 years of my life and metric for the next 25 .Try it and you will find metric is easier, after only 3 months of use you'll hate imperial.
Philip
I can tell you in one second what 10 times 346 is can you do the same for 12 times 346.
Is this, by any chance, the same guy who thought it would be helpful to simplify the way we spell things in the English language?
Proposed Improvements to the English Language
Enjoy your English while you can - The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.
As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as Euro-English.
In the first year, s will replace the soft c. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard c will be dropped in favour of k. This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome ph will be replaced with f. This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.
Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent e in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing th with z and w with v.
During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary o kan be dropd from vords kontaining ou and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.
Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza.
Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru!
-Jazzdogg-
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." Bertrand Russell
Jazz-
I saw that shift to German language some time ago. Funny and thought provoking at the same time.
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Thats hillarious. LOL.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Hi there jazzdog,
I read your English to German translation and I was much amused.
I wonder if you have ever read about George Bernard Shaw and his efforts to make a phonetic version of English spellings. One of his arguments was that using the current English sounds you could spell "fish" as GHOTI His logic was GH as in cough, O as in women, and TI as in station. I think he was on the right track (not).
Woodsy
Woodsy,
Yes - that's a good one I'm familiar with! -Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Loved it! Have you ever read Ladle Rat Rotten Hut? I obtained a copy of it during a class on the English language. It clearly proves that communication can occur even though the correct word is never used. For instance Ladle Rat Rotten Hut = Little Red Riding Hood.RoRo
Yep! That's a good one!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
A similar unit of measure, the pica, is used widely in the US printing industry.
Magazine, book and newspaper pages and layouts are traditionally measured in picas.
The pica is roughly 1/6 of an inch*. Bobs are 24 to the inch, so divide a pica in 4 and you have 4 "bobs."
But i can tell you from 30 years in the business that picas are the devil's measure.
Base 12? Impossible to do guick calculations. Impossible to use a calculator, unless you convert fractions to metric (1 pica, 3 points = 1.25 picas = 5 bobs).
You can find pica rulers in better art supply stores. But I don't know why anyone would subject themselves to their torture. I guess I'll have to investigate "bobs."
* One pica = 12 points. But one inch = 72.27 points. In computer design programs, the default measure of an inch is 72 points, or 6 picas. But in some programs, QuarkXpress for example, you can change the default setting to 72.27 if you want your layouts to line up to an inch ruler.
PS - When I was putting together my General table saw, i found that about half of the hardware was metric and the rest was imperial!! Not to mention the instructions were for a right-tilt and mine is a left-tilt! A test of spatial skills that kept me busy for an afternoon. (Even so, I love the saw)
[Avoid schadenfreude]
Edited 6/30/2005 12:49 pm ET by Trappist
Your missing 3/4 of the fun
The word processor that most people use is written in the US, so it uses picas as the basic measurement (and I think the same is true for WordPerfect) which is fine if you're using US paper, BUT if your country's gone metric then you shoehorn the output onto metric paper that is 8.27 in wide and 11.69 in high - I'll leave it to you to work out how many fractions of a pica are left over.
There have been advocates for a duodecimal system for many years, based on the ease of dividing by 2, 3, 4, and 6. It has never caught on/
.Tom
You may be able to save a few bucks if you have a framing square. On the side with the 100ths scale, the inches are marked in 12ths on the outside edge of both the blade and tongue.
We've been threatened with the metric system many times over the years. I think the proponents were making progress back in the 60's when we could buy our beer in a GIQ, Giant Imperial Quart. Now it's liters, or parts of a liter, or liters converted to fluid ounces, or parts of a quart. I'm looking at two bottles right now, they look identical but one is clear and one is green. The green one is 2 liter, 67.6 FL. OZ., 2 Qts 3.6 FL. OZ. The clear one is 2 liter, 2.1 Qt. Of course my measuring cup is marked in cups and CCs. I'm a little confused because the serving size is 240ML.
I work on vintage British motorcycles. My tool box needs sockets and wrenches in Standard, Metric and that other great system, Wittworth. The American version of Whittworth is a set of vice grips. Taps and dies along with nuts and bolts are real gems for consistency. Cycle Engineers Institute, Unified, Acme, Metric ISO, some can be real close but you don't want to make a mistake in an alloy casting.
I think Bob's fame will be short lived. Maybe it will make it's way into the working vernacular. " take a good bob off her, it's a bit tight", " Man, you could squeeze a pair of bobs in that crack". I wonder how many bobs are in a Bobbit?
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer,
Get you an Indian, instead of the Brit bikes. The bolts are all 'steenths (but some of the threads are still a little unusual-24 tpi??).
"If I had a Beeza, I'd leave it for a thief,
and with the insurance money, I'd buy an Indian Chief."
(If I had an Ariel square 4, or a Vincent Black Lightning, I'd keep 'em)
Cheers,
Ray
The American version of Whittworth is a set of vice grips.
***************Not so. I had a Kodak Viscount processor that featured Whitworth bolts, screws, nuts.We used the great American Crescent wrench set. $35.00 at the local supplier. Eastman wanted $400 for a set of Whitworths. Fat chance.An Imperial pint of Guiness ran $2.50 at the local Irish bar here. Bass was $2.00.:)Leon Jester
The BOB concept is based on breaking the inch down into smaller units called BOBS.
Europe has something like that...
They have Metric and breaks 10 down to smaller units of 10..
It never caught on here in the USA...
I'm another who converted to metric and find it much easier (although you need a bit of practise it's quicker to pick up than the imperial system). I'm not suggesting human error will be avoided, yesterday I read 1711mm, it was supposed to be 1706mm. Luckily I went long this time.
From what I remember the States dropped the conversion to metric partly due to the cost of retooling. I remember there was a lot of confusion, seeing things like 152 1/4 cm, or 152cm and 6mm.
pk
If you don't build projects from canned (U.S.) plans the metric system is best. Design your piece with the metric system, or buy canned plans from the U.K. or Europe.
If you build exact reproductions of historic pieces then converting to metric can result in a less-than-accurate reproduction. Might as well deal with Imperial on these projects.
The 'Bob' is a bunch of silly bullsheet.
Cstan:
Thanks for the advice. I started this thread just about a week ago and I can not beleive the response that was generated. Over 60 people posted threads regarding BOBs and measurement in general.
I learned alot reading these posts and determined that I should at least build my next project using the metric system. It also appears many folks think the BOB is a bunch of baloney. I do not think I will even mess around with BOBs. Seems like the metric will be the way to go.
Thanks-
Marko
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Well marko, Bob's are essentially horse manure.
The Americans have a functioning system knowns as feet, inches and fractions. When fractions get inconvenient they switch over to a decimal system of thousands of an inch.
That's good enough for most people.
I'm not a big user of Imperial measure, i.e., feet and inches, but in many ways I like the system.
Mostly I use metric measurement, i.e., metres and millimetres, but there are times when I prefer feet. For example, an 8' X 4' board divides conveniently into 32 square feet, whereas a board 2440 X 1220 mm doesn't divide into any convenient smaller unit except things like 0.5 or 0.25 of a board.
Did I mention that I think the BOB unit of measurement is crap? I rather hope it fails as the 1/12 thingy is not a very memorable measure of anything that I can think of.
No wonder we Brits eventually ditched the 12 based £'s, shillings and pence. That was crap too, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
You are hilarious. I can understand that you feel the BOB is a bull crap. It is a little unorthodox. Sounds like you and many other support the metric stystem. I am going to give it a try on my next project. Thanks for the feedback ....I am still laughing at your position on BOB--- "horse manure" You slay me.
Take across the pond,
Marko
Thank you,
The Great Marko
Is England still in Imperial units, or have they converted fully?
Considering that ISO is basically organised out of France, I'm sure you will be drinking pints forever and the old timers will weigh in pounds, while measuring in inches for a long time ahead.
Does a Scott have six inches, or 150mm under the kilt?
Edited 7/5/2005 7:09 pm ET by Willie Martins
we tend t keep offcuts in the scrap box, nae under the kilt..
;P~~~~Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
It's a bit of a mixture, Willie. Officially almost everything's metric, but we still also officially buy pints of beer, and drive our cars at MPH. Fuel consumption is often calculated as number of litres required to cover 100 miles, although I prefer miles per gallon for that measure.
Almost no-one is thrown if you describe a piece of MDF as an 8' X 4' X 18 mm. I buy timber in cubic feet, although I could buy it in cubic meters if I want, but cubic meters are an awkward number for relatively small buyers like me with there being approximately 35.35 cubic feet in a cubic metre, or for the Americans that's ~424 BF, ha, ha! Slainte.RJFurniture
Actually I find it very convinent to buy by the cubic meter. Since this is the standard measure, it is easy to compare prices with only the factor of grade coming in (select,first ,second ,third). All is rough sawn so the only variant is squared sides.
When I buy by the lot I get one price, if I want to sort through the stack it's another. But it is always clear what I'm going to pay. (These are big commercial lumber yards).
Now here in Italy the Scotts, the Genovese and the Jewish have a reputation for being ,shall we say ,"good business men" (stingy just doesn't sound as good) but they also say that any cross breed of the three makes a Brianzolo (that's us, area north of Milano). So at the lumber yard you have to convince them to measure the rough sawn lumber your way and not their's..... this takes some doing, but if you want to get a better price it's the only way.
Philip
How do they designate the thickness over there in Italy?
Is it the real board thickness, say 22mm, 45mm, or also the rough sawn dimensions as over here in the US.
What are the standard dimensions?
By actual thickness dried rough sawn starting at30 mm to 32 mm usually. common measures go by the centemeter but ofter on the 50mm thickness the add 2mm (52mm) so that you can get a clean 45mm out of it which is a standard door and window thickness.
Anyway a cubic meter is a measured real cubic meter, not a "it was a cubic meter when we started".
Philip
I learn't woodworking from my old man, in Germany, long time ago and left home when 21. I did not do woodwork again until about 1 1/2 years ago, here in California.
I have quite a few pieces in my home, which the old man made. When I compare my work to his, his boards are always thicker by at least 1/8".
The way we measure here is rather unique, but I think we are getting ripped off in the process.
Marko, When I first set foot in Ireland, I stepped off the train and was confronted by an old fashioned scale. Having a bit of change with me, I weighed myself (14 Stones) ???
I was a strapping 20 year old 'Yank' then. Now I'm much heavier, but can't find any scales in Connecticut to convert to Masonry.??
Kilos? Steinmetz.
196 lbs
If you want your weight in masonary units, just divide by 14.
But if you want a real challenge work it out in cwts.
Ian
2 stones = 1 quarter4 quarters = 1 hundredweight = 112 lbs
There are an infinite number of numbering systems. If God would have made us with 15 fingers, we'd probably be using the hexidecimal system instead of the base 10 system. In the early days of computers, analyst's could count in hexidecimal, octal, binary, or base 10. The only requirement in a measuring system is that the system be consistent. Didn't the Egyptians use the Cubit to build the pyramids?
I wonder which Bob, and what part of that Bob, would be used to establish the BOB standard??? :)
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
If we had converted to the metric system when it was proposed---we wouldnt be in the fix we are in.
WHY DID WE ACCEPT OUR MONEY WITH A BASE TEN & IGNORE IT WITH OUR STUPID WEIGHTS/MEASURES/ETC. ---THAT WE USE ????
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Quick joke-----I tought adult --woodworking / refrigeration / scientific calculator---at our county voc. school.
Many local companys used this school for their employes.
A very intelegant man (almost a certified elect. engineer) & his wife were in the calc. class & he stated he hated the metric system.
During a discusion he stated he wouldn't know how fast he was driving if we were to change.
I asked--are you driving a 1946 chevy?
His wife replyed---no--he is juat a bullheaded idiot.
woody/LUTHER
This is what I use.It just makes everything so much simpler.Max
Texas Sharpologist
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