What is the difference between boiled linseed oil, raw linseed oil and Danish Oil finish?
rrwood
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The raw has no metallic dryers added. You can add a teaspoon of Japan Drier per pint to help it cure. Boiled linseed oil has had driers added. Danish oil is mostly linseed oil, with some varnish added, and also driers added. Danish oil will give you a classic linseed oil finish with a reasonably predictable cure time and a little varnish thrown in for kicks. Danish oil won't give much surface build until you get into an excess of four to five applications, generally speaking, as the species of wood makes a difference.
Most "boiled" linseed oil just has heavy metal driers added to it.
There's at least one company which really does cook their linseed oil rather than adding driers - Tried and True. Christian Becksvoort gave it a great review a few years back in FWW. I gave it a try on a door I was refinishing, and it worked beautifully. I applied it warm, which I think Becksvoort recommended.
It's called "polymerized" rather than boiled - there may be yet another distinction there.
When you apply these finishes and allow to cure can you/should you apply a top coat of poly or shellac or varnish??
rrwood
NO, NO, NO ---- wax only, please.
I need to ask one more question. As you can tell I have never used the linseed or the Danish oil before. I am going to apply this on American Sycamore that I salvaged from a scrap pile at a crosstie mill. Most of the wood is flatsawn, few quartersaw, but all has a neat grain. I wanted to keep the wood natural, perhaps tinted a little.
I thought the oil would bring out the grain - linseed - but did not know much about the Danish Oil as well.
When you say wax, do you mean rub it down with like Johnsons paste wax??
rrwood
rrwood,
That's just what it means: applying a good, hard furniture wax--just like waxing a car--only different. (Hmmm.) I've never used Johnsons Wax, but I'm sure someone else has. I have used Bison, Blue Label (Is 'Blue Label' correct? Another senior moment I'm afraid) and Briwax, and they all worked just fine. But lately I've taken to mixing up my own concoction of bees wax, carnuba wax and turpentine.
Alan
When you say wax, do you mean rub it down with like Johnsons paste wax??
Wax offers no protection to an oil finish. If it is a piece likely to have any wear or things put on top of it a wipe on varnish finish would be advisable.Gretchen
Gretchen50,
This thread is drifting somewhat, but why do you say wax offers "no" protection? It certainly is not as durable as a varnish finish, and if the suface receives any wear, needs to be reapplied periodically, but it certainly offers protection. Water spilled on a wax surface, if wiped off before too long (minutes) will do no harm. Other solvents are a little more problematic. Properly applied and power buffed to a hard, thin film, wax gives quite a bit of serviceability (and beauty) for the minimal effort it requires to apply.
VL
Put a coat of wax on a board and set a sweating glass on it. "Minutes" is an operational term and perhaps applicable. You may, of course, do as you want. I want a more durable finish on my furniture. Then wax can be applied if Iwant to. Gretchen
Another test is to wax your saw tabletop then spray it with water from a spray bottle. It will bead because of the reduced surface tension. Next morning you will find a dot of rust under each bubble. Wax has little or no resistance to water penetration. If you spill water on it and wipe it up immediately, perhaps you will get no discoloration. Leave it for a minute and you will have a white spot. Spill water on bare wood, let it sit 10 minutes wipe it dry and next day, there will be little in the way of marking.
Ummm. . .
I'm beginning to realize there is quite an undercurrent on this forum. Information is not the only thing exchanged here!
Gretchen50, I did not mean to be confrontational regarding wax finishes. Just explaining my opinion. If I was wrong in reading your reply as a confrontational reply to mine, I apologize.
Howie, ditto.
OTOH, confrontation isn't a BAD thing! I'm as capable as anyone (she said running and ducking for cover).
There's another thread going on that't a REAL page turner.
VL
Venicia,
I'm on your side. I agree that shellac is the most beautiful finish (on most, not all woods) and you can't beat the combination of wax on top of shellac. The nay sayers are right, of course: varnish offers more "protection" than does shellac and wax. I wouldn't use shellac on a dining or coffee table, or anywhere it's likely to get water on it. But when getting the prettiest finish is all that matters... So if they want to, let the enlightened seal their wood in plastic.
Besides, if you're throwing a party and someone spills paint stripper on your nicely varnished coffee table...
Alan
Alan,
"Besides, if you're throwing a party and someone spills paint stripper on your nicely varnished coffee table... "
Yes. I just HATE when that happens. Such a waste of paint stripper. Less of the good stuff to sniff.
VL
Whatever does this post have to do with finishing wood with wax?
"Another test is to wax your saw tabletop then spray it with water from a spray bottle. It will bead because of the reduced surface tension. Next morning you will find a dot of rust under each bubble."
Why would you do that? Are you negating the usefulness of keeping a saw table waxed, just because doing something extreme like spraying water on it will result in visible rusting? What do you think you will find the next morning if there had not been ANY wax protection? That table will be uniformly rusted, not just a few rust spots where beads of water sat and mostly evaporated before doing a little damage. You don't wax your machines? What does this prove?
"Wax has little or no resistance to water penetration."
Certainly it does. Not a lot. No one is disputing that, but why do you take such an extreme position. Why is it necessary to so completely make a strawman out of a wax finish?
"If you spill water on it and wipe it up immediately, perhaps you will get no discoloration."
Thanks for proving my point that it offers some protection
"Leave it for a minute and you will have a white spot."
Which can quickly and easily be "repaired" by a little new wax and buffing. No harm, no foul
"Spill water on bare wood, let it sit 10 minutes wipe it dry and next day, there will be little in the way of marking."
Really? So bare wood is better protected than wood with a wax finish? Spill water on bare wood and you have raised grain and swelling that requires plaining, scraping or sanding to repair.
This is fun!
VL
you seem to have missed the point of having a table top that you can actually use in real life. I do not construct furniture--I mostly refinish. I have blanket boxes as end tables and coffee tables, tables that I use as breakfast tables and "work" tables. If they had a "wax" finish--well, what use would it be. They would be totally "ringed" because I love to "use" my furniture.
A shellac finish is absolutely GORgeous--no doubt about it. It is not a finish to be used for a table top--in my opinion. If a piece of furniture is to be of use, then the finish that is used must match its use. Not every finish is appropriate to the use of the furniture. And wax is not even in the running for useful surfaces.
And put a glass on wax, get a ring--you won't be just "putting a bit more wax on" to repair that little sucker. Especially if the ring goes to black on some woods.Gretchen
Gretchen,
Points well taken. Not every finish is appropriate for every use. That is the message.
But I am surprised by the degree of confrontational tension here. Maybe it's just me. Bygones.
BTW, I have several beautiful table tops finished in shellac that are over 20 years old. They get no special treatment, other than respect for the beautiful display tables that they are. Their french-polished surfaces are unmarred, although things have been set on them, moved around, etc. Shellac is very durable. I would not want to subject them to alcohol, but the chance of that happening is nil. Not all furniture should be used for all purposes either. The shellac film gets nicer as each year passes, and harder. And if any damage happens, I can easily repair that nice surface in just a few minutes.
A dining table in a home with growing children? Varnish that sucker. In a home with adults, respectful of fine furniture? Shellac would be my choice. OK, or lacquer.
VL
God bless you. You have broad horizons. Some on this forum have not seen the great looking antiques from **England** especially whose original finish was wax and have only been waxed for the last several hundred years. They're gorgeous and have clearly been used in the **very** real world.
There's an article by Tom Wisshack (sp?) a year or so ago in Woodwork about wax-only finishes. Indicate some interest and I'd be happy to contact you off the forum and send you a photocopy of it.
I've found my kindred spirit.
Charlie
Charlie,
Thanks (I think!).
I'm not a real big user of wax finishes. In fact, I don't use them at all. But I do recognize their existence.
I have access to old copies of "Woodwork." I'll take a look.
There's a book I was reading at Borders the other day that, (*ahem*), "waxed" poetic on waxed finishes. Lotsa nice pictures, too. I'll go back and get the name.
VL
Sounds good...
Venicia,
You need not worry about others' confrontational attitudes on this board. You obviously can take care of yourself.
I'll join the other(s) who love shellac (I also love wax) in welcoming you. Keep up the good work!
Whoever mentioned the really old furniture that's had no finish other than wax: GREAT POINT! You really nailed it. Now, why didn't I think of that??? DOH!
Alan
I am really going to have to try shellac one of these days. I make gunstocks and getting the wood to look pretty is sometimes important. Most of what I make is reproduction military but most people always seem to want a bit "extra" in the looks department.
As for the beauty of old furniture and the finished the "old masters" use, there is a missing ingredient that can't be purchased. That is time. That wood has been rubbed for decade after decade and the surface has slowly been hammered smooth by objects set upon it. Much of the beauty comes from that, not the "finish" applied 150 years ago. What we are ogling is the patina, not the finish.
I run into that all the time, old military stocks that did not see real use have a patina that makes them beautiful and is nearly impossible to reproduce. That beauty comes not from the boiled linseed oil but from untold hands rubbing it over and over.
Anyway, we all do things a bit different. However, I know my way is the best and one day the rest of you will all come around...
Michael
"Poppie" (my grandfather) wouldn't use shellac in a pig stye... Anything meant to be used is going to get wet. For use under paint to seal knots and the like, sure, but for a bright finish??? No way. (I'm not too opinionated, am I? LOL.)
Ed,
I agree. I would NEVER use shellac in a pig stye. It just wouldn't stand up to that kind of use.
On the other hand, our friend, Clem who runs a large pig ranch and nets a cool Mil a year enjoys many items of museum-quality, shellac-finished fine furniture in his custom-designed 8000 sq ft home.
Clem has often been heard to remark, "Don't nobody put no dad-gum shellac on them pig styes." Of course, he insists they all be finished with Poly Varnish, 'cause that can stand up to getting wet.
VL
LOL, you got me on that one... He wouldn't use shellac on anything he built and finished bright. ;-)
French polishers are born, not made.
EXTREMELY well said Venicia.
A boiled linseed oil finish is the least protective finish you can apply. It has no resistance to water or watervapor and has no durability. It is best used as a colorant to "pop" the grain IMO. If you want any protection, you will need to over coat it with another clear finish like lacquer, varnish or shellac.
Oil/vanish products like Watco and others are slightly more protective. The small amount of varnish resin offers a little protection from water and water vapor but still needs to be reapplied periodically to maintain a good appearence. An oil/varnish is a better choice than a pure oil finish. Many finishers use an oil/varnish as a first coat for coloring and then over coat it with a protective film finish. But, using plain, ole BLO would work as well--and it's cheaper.
Adding wax does not improve the water or watervapor protection nor does it do much of anything for durability.
Good point on the Tried and True - it is a quality product.
Just thought I'd add to this about the Tried and True product.
I'm afraid I had very poor results with it. It just never hardened. It was like using raw linseed as far as my experience went. I bought several different cans from 2 different sources after the initial problem. I was interested in it because it's supposed to be non toxic. But truth is, any cured finish is non-toxic. Even the rags I used to apply it stayed "wet" for weeks after I used them. I've almost never seen that, except with raw linseed. I lay out application rags flat on a concrete floor to dry. They are generally stiff as a board the next day, no matter what finish is on them. Not with the tried and true. The wood was gummy for weeks. I eventually took the surface down with solvent and refinished with an oil/varnish mixture.
I used it after reading an article in FWW. I followed the advice there to apply it warm and in a very thin coat. I live in a VERY warm climate, so I don't think warming the oil was all that useful. I just could not get decent results with it.
VL
Edited 10/27/2003 12:10:43 PM ET by Venicia L
Did you apply it warm, or at room temperature?
I applied thin coats warm, and had no problems at all.
Simon,
I applied it warm (maybe 105-110 degrees F).
The instructions on the can say nothing about warming it.
VL
Hmmm... that's really different from what I found. I was using a hot pot with an amazingly crappy thermostat as a double boiler, and I think the temperature reached 120 at one point, but it didn't seem that warm. The door dried for the most part in a couple of days, and seemed fine after a week. When I felt for uncured areas, there were a few, but they went away in about another week.
The rags hardened pretty quickly too, despite my putting them in a pile of snow outside.
It sounds like you tried a couple of different suppliers, so it's not just old finish. Only things I can think of were maybe I warmed it further or used a thinner coat.
(You're right that it doesn't say to warm it on the can. I haven't tried it cold, so don't really know if it makes a difference, but I've liked the results warm.)
I'll be using it again in a couple of weeks, and maybe I'll do some experiments.
It would be interesting to hear further experiences. But I just put it aside. It was much more trouble than it was worth. Oil and oil/varnish finishes are so easy and so forgiving, it's almost impossible to do anything wrong. If anything, problems occur because they start to set up too quickly, not because they harden too slowly, and the inexperienced worker gets caught with the piece needing to be rewetted and wiped down quickly. So when I had problems with the Tried and True I just gave up on it.
VL
I also used Tried and True and had no trouble. Perhaps I succeded because I didn't read the instructions (I'm a MAN; but I can change, I guess, if I have to) and sanded it in like Danish oil or boiled linseed oil.
My test was on some red oak. Sanding in two coats filled the pores, and left a great looking finish, very much like a linseed oil finish. As I recall, it dried completely in less than a week. Perhaps sanding it in warmed it a bit, or did something else that made it dry.
Alan
I like Tried and True Danish Oil and use it exclusively. I put on a heavy coat and let it sit for a few minutes and then I wipe off every smidgen of oil that I can with paper towels and dispose of them accordingly. I never have had to wipe on second coat. I then finish with paste wax. I grew tired of using finishes that I had to don gear which the CDC might use when working with Ebola viruses.
Interesting experiences.
I think the toxic property of finishing oils has been vastly overstated. All finishes are non-toxic when cured. I use gloves when applying any finish and plenty of ventilation. No big.
I like the oil/varnish combinations I've gotten used to (they contain REAL tung oil, heat polymerized). I know how they set up. I know the surface sheen they produce. So easy to do. There's just a little too much "True Believer" atmosphere surrounding the Tried and True product for my taste.
Besides, shellac is the most beautiful finish that can be applied to wood (in my very humble opinion). Lacquer is an extremely close second and I can apply that in ways to mimic the appearance of any oil finish and the end result is far better anyway. I LOVE the aroma on opening a finely crafted cabinet finished with shellac, but especially with lacquer. It says quality. I HATE the aroma from a piece finished in BLO (rancid?)
But this has taken the thread quite a bit away from its original title.
VL
I had the same problem with the stuff, I was using the varnish. Never did dry and had to redo the piece. The wood was cherry, applied thin then wiped every bit off. The rags never even stiffened. I even tried using a heat gun. POd I tried to contact the manufacturer and never could run them down. The distributor said it might be old but how would you know no exp.date or batch no. no visible clues. Havent had the same problem with their danish oil finish.
I think the manufacturer is a very small operation with poor quality control. Somehow he was able to get a cult following started with the "non-toxic" mystique. The stuff is just Linseed Oil after all. And I think we got a batch that was simply quite raw.
VL
Venicia wrote: I think the toxic property of finishing oils has been vastly overstated. All finishes are non-toxic when cured. ....
Not so! Most "Boiled Linseed Oil" is not boiled, but contains metallic driers** which do not evaporate from the finish but act as catalysts to dry the finish chemically. outside to in. These remaining metals are not a serious toxin, but they may not be used in any food contact application. Pure polymerized linseed oil can be used in food contact situations.
** "These metallic salts of cobalt and manganese are a health risk to those who manufacure them. In use they are considered a health risk only in long term exposure." --From T&T's website--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
Lee,
I applied T&T properly. I promise you. The batch(es) I had did not harden, I promise you they didn't. Did you read what I wrote? I applied it warm, I applied it as a very thin film. I rubbed it well. Let's just leave it there.
The non-toxic properties of T&T have not been touted for its use on items that come in contact with food. I doubt that any significant amount of it will be used that way. And its usefulness in that regard is not the point. If you want to use wood containers and utensils for food, or advocate certain finishes for that purpose, that's a problem I don't want to deal with.
At the risk of offending some nice people on this forum, I believe that mankind has achieved a loftier position on the evolutionary scale than to need wooden eating bowls and implements. I think they are unnecessary and quite unsanitary. And for those few meat cutting boards, bread cutting boards, salad bowls and mixing spoons that continue to be pressed into service, if their owners really feel compelled to "enhance their appearance" by any surface additive other than the salad oils which naturally come in contact with them, well, God-bless.
The FWW article praised T&T as safe to apply with bare hands. THAT was the essence of the non-toxic angle. I think that's just plain silly if not not really dumb. I use gloves to apply any finish. I'm not worried about toxicity, but I am interested in avoiding a dermatitis, which once started may not be a trivial matter for anyone working with these materials.
I don't think the toxicity issue rises to the level of anything that is realistic for anything T&T or other finishes will actually be used on. T&T admits that the driers are not a real toxicity issue but they keep on repeating the "T" word. Repetition apparently gets attention even when there's no issue. Since gloves should be used with any finish, what is the point?
Yes, heavy metals are toxic if their level in the body becomes significant. They inhibit cellular metabolism. And that could only happen if somone were exposed to extremely large amounts over a long period.
Saccharin was shown to cause tumors in mice. If a human were exposed to an equivalent amount of saccharin that was used to cause tumors in mice, (comparing body weight of the two organisms) he or she would have to consume a truckload of saccharine over the course of ten years.
Is saccharin toxic? You do the math. Are heavy metals used as finishing driers toxic? Same math.
Use T&T. Enjoy it. I tried it out of curiosity. It didn't float my boat. I don't much like Linseed Oil anyway. I'm negatively biased starting out and its failure to perform wasted my time. I'm sure you and many others will use it well. Make nice stuff. There is something for everyone in this world.
VL
I think Venicia know's what she's doing. I'm glad to have a head's up on T &T's potential for quality control issues. I'd hate to have a delivery date get funked up because I'm waiting for a finish to cure that never does.
"Is saccharin toxic? You do the math. Are heavy metals used as finishing driers toxic? Same math."
One problem there - heavy metals accumulate in the body, and are shed slowly. Three to six months is typical. Saccharin goes through fast. The math isn't really the same.
Fortunately, saccharin addiction (seen as a problem in the early 20th century) seems to have passed, and hopefully most of us aren't pouring babbitt bearings, stripping lead paint, applying finishes containing driers without gloves, and then eating from lead-containing salad bowls. (Lead was a real issue in glassware as well, actually, and it's definitely still regulated.)
My favorite aspect of working with Tried & True was the lack of solvents. I could refinish the door in my office, where it was going anyway, without worrying about poisoning myself. (When I caught my dog licking a spot I'd dropped on the floor, it wasn't a problem, either.)
Petroleum fumes give me headaches quickly (even with ventilation), so I tend to stick with water-based finishes. They're all right, but kind of dull. I'll be experimenting with shellac in the next few months - alcohol doesn't give me the same hassle. Maybe it'll have a hangover, but I doubt it.
Sorry you had a bad experience, but I still find the stuff compelling and useful.
If you are concerned with possible health issues from various finishing products, the manufacturers will be happy to send you a Material Safety Data Sheet. The MSDS will list the components that may be harmful and recommend the remedial or protective items that are required.
Just because a product is made with water, does not make it safe. The emissions from curing waterborne varnish are just as harmful as those from oil based. The only difference is you don't have the high concentration of volitale solvents. Waterboorne products still contain solvents and most manufacturers recommend respirators to deal with the fumes and emissions.
The point is that a user needs to be aware of the dangers and then take the appropriate steps for their protection. If the user decides not to take steps, then it is a personal decision and they may have to deal with later problems.
Edited 10/31/2003 11:00:11 AM ET by Howie
I'm aware that the waterborne finishes should not be consumed like milk, even if they look like it sometimes. Petroleum solvents bug me in particular, but that doesn't mean I snort the other stuff. I work in ventilated areas, etc.
I'm not that sold on the "its personal responsibility" line, however - there's lots of politics around that which I really don't trust. The mere existence of MSDS and related forms is great (though some politicians want to remove those business-impeding bits of bureaucracy), but I still would prefer to work with stuff that doesn't make me sick in the first place when possible.
They don't recommend eating Tried and True. Otherwise, it seems to be safe in ways that other finishes aren't.
>>They don't recommend eating Tried and True
I DO like the idea of the dog lapping up the T&T drips. It keeps the floor clean. But, I'm not a fan of T&T for some of the reasons stated here and a few others. Some like it and that's fine with me.
Venicia wrote: Oil and oil/varnish finishes are so easy and so forgiving, it's almost impossible to do anything wrong.
Yes, the oil/varnish finishes are easy to use, but there is still a place for pure linseed oil, polymerized preferred to "boiled".
You might like to check out this comparison of T&T Danish with Watco Natural: http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/Vs.htm
Also, T&T's instructions state: "Apply a thin coat.(This is not a flood and soak finish!). Allow the Danish Oil to penetrate for about 5 minutes. Wipe off excess. Buff dry. Recoat in 24 hours. ....
Perhaps you applied it too heavily, resulting in the slow drying problem you experienced.
There is a reason for T&T's reputation. And no, I do not own stock in the company.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
Gateway to the Oregon Caves
Linseed blackens with UV...on quick work boats I've done with tarred bottoms and linseed topsides ya can't tell where linseed stops and tar begins after a couple years.
So if blackening is a consideration, Tung oil is a better choice.
Linseed with driers is invaluable in boatbuilding...apply hot til the wood won't take any more then give it a month in the summer sun before painting....it'll never watersoak because of the linseed.
My "special sauce" recipe is 60/40 Linseed/Turps with a dab of Pine Tar and Japan Drier...and a dab of beeswax if it's not gonna be painted over....applied hot from a double boiler...as much as the wood will take.
Cheap and effective.
Great discussion...so to sum this up (keep in mind American Sycamore), any oil (boiled linseed or Waco Danish) will bring out the detail of the grain, let dry for 24-48 hours, apply shellac (1 or 2 coats), rub down with paste wax.
rrwood
Let it dry for 72 to 96 hours.
Yes, but the color and grain development will vary quite a bit depending on the wood and the amount of linseed vs tung vs the other ingredients in the recipe. And there might be some additional effect with the second application. After that not much change, just building the varnish film if there's varnish in the mixture. I have never used an oil finish on Sycamore. It's never seemed like a wood to use that finish on. Just me. No reason not to.
I think linseed gives the most color development. Tung very little. Teak can go from drab greenish brown to a lovely reddish tan. Walnut can change a bit. Red oak too. White Oak not very much at all.
VL
Edited 11/1/2003 12:10:34 PM ET by Venicia L
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