Sorry to piss and moan, but …
“What sort of tablesaw to buy?”,” Isn’t Norm a slob?”, “Tilt right or left?”
It has been a dead hang around here for the last month or so.
Can’t we move this board to a higher plane?
No pun intended,
Frank
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The last couple of weeks has been the first time in a long while there was much of interest for me here.
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
OK. Pick a topic.
Rich
I agree with Rich. Instead of pissing and moaning, start an interesting thread!! I doubt that the rest of us are going to sit down, ponder forum life, and change our behavior just because it bores you. It's up to the people who are bored to make it more interesting, obviously the rest of us have failed you.
There are certain topics that will always, always, always show up in this and other WWing forums. I've been sight-seeing at about 3 other forums for the past month, and the same ol' same ol' shows up, with occasional new and different threads, in each and every one of them. Might as well get used to it.
Once again, my most sage advice: ignore the stuff you don't like.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
OK, i've got one, and it's a mystery!
One of my large woodworking tools, a 1966 Dodge Power Wagon*, doesn't start anymore. It "clicks", but it doesn't turn over. I've replaced negative and positive battery cables, the starter relay, had the starter/solenoid out to two different shops for testing, replaced the battery, and checked the wire from the relay to the solenoid for continuity. It got dark before i could check the brushes on the starter, my next excursion. Any more ideas?
__________
*It hauls lumber, firewood, all the materials for the new shop, and i understand that there is optional equipment whereby i could jack up the rear axle, remove the rear wheels, and use the axle for power take-off for accessories like a chainsaw. Close enough?
Blown head gasket, cylinder full of water, valves closed on compression stroke. Take out the plugs and try again. If the engine turns over and a cylinder spews water I have given you the correct solution.
If that's the problem, it looks like it's got a bad case of Yard Art coming on!
Engine was completely overhauled a few thousand ago. Wouldn't there be water in the oil, visible on the dipstick?
Hey Splints, have you tried to roll start it? Assuming a standard tranny...Would tell you if it's the starting/charging system or engine.what the heck was I thinking?
From what you've said, all of the other causes are eliminated. There could be water in the oil if the the rings were bad or the cylinder was cracked but if neither is the case then water may be leaking into the cylinder from the top and creating a tremendous amount of pressure when you try to turn it over. Still, a good starter and battery will usually get past that but it will make a heck of groan. The next test is to disconnect the battery and the put a socket with a long breaker bar on the crankshaft pulley bolt. With the brake on and the trans in neutral, you should be able to easily turn the engine over. If not.... You might just have yourself a piece of yard art for sure.
SCAP it, or Trade up. heee, haaa.
> .....a 1966 Dodge Power Wagon...
That's a truck to die for!!!
Having tried all the electrical stuff, the suggestion of trying to turn the engine over by hand sounds like a good one to make sure the motor's not frozen for some reason. With only a few thou on the rebuild, it's not likely but who knows.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Yeah! I drove a few of those beasts, in their crew-cab incarnation, while I was in the USAF, 1963-67. I loved 'em.
If all else fails, call Click 'n Clack (Car Talk, Tom & Ray, The Chumps). After they give you their pearls of wisdom, you can do an encore by being featured on "Stump the Chumps." That would be grand!!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
More info please.
When did it run last? Any indication of trouble then?
Just one click when you turn the key - no whirring?
Six or eight cylinder? Mileage? Engine baggy or tight?
Ok Splintie, let's see if we can't sort this out for you...
There's only 1 reason an engine will "click", but not turn over - not enough torque being developed by the starter. So, let's walk through the possible reasons this could be:
Not enough torque being generated:1. Not enough juice in the battery (already tested, correct?)2. Bad Starter/Solenoid (again, already checked, correct?)3. Bad GROUND on Starter/Engine block (didn't see anything about this)
Too much torque required by engine:too many reasons to list without more info - 1. has the car been stored for a period of time, or recently driven?2. stick or auto? (doesn't affect this question, but does affect possible solutions)3. engine size? presumably V8?
I would suggest checking the ground first - unless the car has been in storage, and was stored improperly, it is unlikely there is anything wrong with the engine. However, as suggested previously, a simple turn of the engine (with the battery disconnected of course!) (might as well check compression while you're at it!) will confirm this - if you can turn it, so can the starter.
Provide more details and we'll see if we can't get her running for you :)
Doug
Broken tooth on flywheel?
I thought that, but wouldn't the starter at least spin rather then click?
The battery's new right? I'd do a load test on it anyway, if you haven't already. Maybe you got a bad one, which does happen occasionally. It's probably okay, but it's too easy to check, so you might as well. If your voltage regulator is bad, it could've fried the battery pretty quickly, too.
Froed
Wow, you guys are amaaaaziiiing....
OK, the whole story:
It has a battery about 1 1/2 years old, but it sat last winter without starting. (Me bad.) However, it started right up last Spring. I was using it during the summer occasionally, but then it got hard to start, needing a jump from the Toyota, then started harder and harder, then stopped altogether about two months ago so that not even a jump produced more than a clicking sound.
I replaced the relay (which helped not at all) and got the starter tested by two different shops. Then i replaced the negative cable on AJinNZ's advice and it zoomed to life for about a week. Then over the course of the next few starts it again got tireder and tireder. Thankfully, i got my 40+ bales of cellulose hauled to my remodel before it parked itself, backed up to the deck.
Since its latest strike, i've replaced the positive side of cables (one to relay, and one from relay to the starter). A couple days ago, a master electrician friend came and checked to see the wires from the alternator to the battery were good. He pronounced my battery dead, but i believe it was because i had left the key in the ACC position by mistake the last time i tried to turn it over, since when i had it on the charger before it showed full charge and the lights were bright, though he said the lights take much less juice that the starter.
Anyway, the starter won't even whimper in the slightest when i turn the key now, though i still get a click. Oddly, while my buddy Chuck was fiddling with its "Wires", twice the starter fluttered and then stopped. At that point, i honestly can't recall what was connected to what, but it did momentarily flutter, or whir.
Chuck insisted it was the battery, that my attempts to jump it were unsuccessful bec the connections were too tenuous. So yesterday i drove my Toyota over to it, removed the Toyota battery and attached it directly to the Dodge cables. I've cleaned every connection with a battery brush or sandpaper, inc. both ends of cable, the ground to the block, all relay, solenoid, starter, alternator, and battery terminal posts, and i used spray corrosion inhibitor on the mating parts. Just the same click, but no whir.
Stats: it's a 4WD, v-8, 318, standard 4-speed, looks mostly like this one i found in a classifieds site when looking for a repair book on Dodges:
http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/classifieds/johnsmith66th.jpg
I had no idea they were worth anything like that! I paid $600 for it about 4 years ago from someone whose back had gotten too bad to drive it anymore, but he'd had the whole thing rebulit from one end to the other: motor, front end, rear end, carb, clutch, timing gear, brakes...i've got a stack of receipts he gave me that reach to the moon.
When it runs, the thing can climb walls and haul elephants, so no trouble with power. Mileage is about 12 mpg; it burns no oil at all with no white smoke or emissions of any kind visible. One of the umpteen times i removed the starter, i looked into the flyweel to see if there were missing teeth there, but it looked fine, the starter teeth are smooth and regular, and i guess it would have at least whirred anyway.
I'm off to turn it over by hand (it's at another house); will report back. If that's not it, there's always Car Talk! All these new ideas of where to look, when all i was doing was trying to shut Frank up... <VBG>
My nickel is on your being able to spin the engine by hand, good compression, a battery that has not had a deep charge since the last time it ran and which has been subsequently drained entirely by a low current draw (ACC) so can not develop a full charge except by tricklecharging over several days. Most important, I think you have a starter that has been developing a progressively higher resistance as it deteriorates and requiring amperage to turn the engine beyond what the battery can supply.
You've been all the way around the system cleaning connections and replacing the components with the exception of the starter. With a good condition 318 operating well until this starter glitch there is not likely to be a problem on the load end of the system. I'd guess you have been able to limp along with a patch here and there because each patch improved the electrical connections sufficently that the starter could once again obtain the incremental amperage that it requires in it's current condition.
If you have an ammeter in the dash, does it show a high load while you are holding the key in START position? If so, and the engine does turn (edit: by hand), try a new starter. Because it is a 318, you may luck out and find the price is low enough you wonder why you even bothered testing the old one. Good luck!
Edited 10/9/2002 2:53:18 PM ET by Dick
I just had another go at it and bec compression was normal, for kicks i set up the cables from Toyota to Dodge again. Lo and behold, the motor j-u-s-t turned over this time, though it still wouldn't start up. I took the Dodge battery out of the loop and with just my Toyota battery-nothing doing. The Toy battery starts the little truck just fine, but it's at least five years old and with winter coming on i think two new batteries are in order.
I had previously checked on a new starter at $114--'Merican!--so i'll call my favorite "auto recyclers", as they like to be called, and see what they have before i just start throwing C-notes about. The good news is that the Dodge battery was warranted for 6 years with failure under 24 months>a free one, so i'll head to the Big City tomorrow to get a replacement.
I still have no idea why the Dodge jumped to life for a few days with the new negative cable on the battery or why it registered charged when i put the charger on it the first time, but i'm inclined to believe your theory that a patch here and there has kept it going this long...and that there was some mojo involved...
The quality of remanufactured starters and alternators has turned to s h i t recently. Case in point - It took me 4 alternators from 2 different suppliers before I got one that was good. The first trough the pulley the second day, the second siezed in a week, and the third quit charging after a week. The alternative? Go to the #### dealer and buy a new one for $450, I don't think so. I wouldn't be so sure that 'new' starter is any good.
Ps: I think you'll agree that I did an admirable job of resisting incredible temptation to mention or even allude to the source and/or country of origin of the remanufactured part in question.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Your battery should recover just fine if you put it on the trickle charger, it just can't recover fully with a 'fast' charge. Once the truck is running again and contributing to charging, I'm sure you'll have no problems with it. Wreckers is an option, but given the utility, value and stoutness of the truck and the pleasure of not dealing with the starter again in the forseeable future, I personally would go with remanufactured parts. Wreckers are good for some things, but I don't like them for mission-critical parts. I wouldn't suggest having your's rebuilt either. I've had that done often enough to know it's not a permenent fix
Your tests confirm to me that you need a starter. Batteries seem to pool all the residual energy for a short surge even at low charge when they are allowed to sit. The combined power of the two would give you sufficent juice for a very brief cranking session before the low battery drops off again. The truck liked the new ground cable, but what it liked even better was losing some of the corrosion in the connections when you did the work, Better connection equals less resistance equals lower amperage draw required to avoid voltage drop and that means the starter was temporarily back in business. It's going to love all new cables, relay, battery and starter and especially those shiny clean points of connection. As a matter of fact, you will bang your head on the roof the first time you turn it over because you will be startled by the whoosh of the starter and engine hitting speed instantly. Ask this restorer of a 1982 Wagoneer with a quarter million miles on it, a tight new engine and a brand new starter and cables and battery and relay who also sports a bump on my head how I know that.
Your oil needs a truck change?
Now this turned out to be a good thread!. Maybe we should hang up the WWing hats for a while and become backyard mechanics?
I have a toyota in the back with rotted brake lines. I can't free them up. Looks like corosion at one of the proportional valves caused by disimilar metals. All three line off this valve are rotted back 1/2". all the other lines on the truck look good. I have to have it hauled down to the local shop for repair next week. Really like this thing running for the winter as it's 4 wheel drive.
TDF
Your oil needs a truck change?
That gave me a good laugh...then a good cry...*sniff*
Well, folks, it's kind of embarrassing that my problem with the Dodge could have been this easy, but the truck looks to be running again with a new battery and i got a new one for the Toyota while i was at it; the variable of not being able to jump the Dodge with my Toyota just threw the whole thing off kilter for me. There could be some more problems down the road, but if it's the starter it may get ugly--no junkyard ones available at any of the places i called, so that leaves remanufactured/pot luck, if it comes to that. Thanks for all the suggestions of what to do if i hit Phase Deux. <humble bow>
Well! Obviously you couldn't "stump these chumps" LOL. Congrats!! I wonder if Tom and Ray realize their days are numbered??forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
This seems to be in line with what you said in another post about the tyranny of simple solutions. They only seem simple when everything else has been exhausted!
Tim
So much for simple solutions. I walked the mutts over to the other house to see how the truck would start and ... nada. It's starting to spit snow horizontally now, so i think i'll dedicate myself to woodworking until it gets a little nicer out there.
Tim, do you have another email? I tried to send something through the forum--no go. Send me at [email protected]. I have something funny for you about gender-bending that should make up for the hell i gave you. Well, some of the hell. The part about the good intentions perhaps...or at least the ice water...or...
Will do--it's [email protected] and it looks like it's right in my prefs...but who knows.
Tim
Don't worry about finding a junkyard starter. Just have the one that's on it now rebuilt, or do it yourself. Don't you just love the sound of those old Chrysler starters? dududududududududududuuuuuuuuu
Jeff
Shims on the starter? Sometimes the starter binds with the flywheel. There are factory installed shims under the mounting screws on the bell to accomidate more seasoned (older) woodworking tools. Could be the rebuilder left them out.
Consider the ground path. Follow the wiring and think like an electron. The fact it dies after running for a while sounds like an intermittent connection. There is generally a braided copper wire that is tinned. Those go to hell often, besides that, the screw it is fastened to is probably rusty as is the fender... Ferric oxide is not a great conductor. Jumper it together. Use big wire.
How about the starter switch in the dash or column? that is another 10 dollar part worth changing. Partucularily if it is outside of the column and in the dash. (it is at the end of a push rod connected to your key switch.) generally white plastic with a hat full of wires connected to it.
Edited 10/15/2002 1:45:08 PM ET by Booch
Edited 10/15/2002 1:47:16 PM ET by Booch
Reporting back to all you helpful people:
I got a new battery, left it on a trickle charge (2 amps) for a day and a half, took it over to the Dodge and connected it. I got a click, no whir.
Lee, i did your diagnostic and the lights dimmed, just slightly. Looks like the starter comes out next...
Dick, i've been reading about starters in a book i'd forgotten i had from a college auto mechanics course--a very good one, if a little dated with its emphasis on generators. I now know enough to think i'd be in over my head with shunt coils, series compound wiring, barrel drives, spring-type drives, etc. as far as rebuilding it myself. So my next move is to ask my Toyota mechanic, He-Who-Walks-On-Water, for his recommendation of a rebuilder. I recall trying three water pumps in my Toy before i got a good one, so taking pot luck from a store...even one of those nice, inexpensive Canadian ones...is my last resort.
Booch, all connections are squeaky clean. The neg cable goes to the block so no rusty fender connection. The starter switch may not be the main problem, but it wouldn't hurt to replace it regardless: the last time i took the truck on the highway, the key fell out and i almost lost it through the rusty floorboards! I love this truck..."an adventure in moving", as U-Haul says...
Thanks to all who've been so gracious to help me. My dad was a fine mechanic who kept his various dump trucks and excavation equipment running well, but NO ONE wanted to be within throwing range when he was working on them--nor even within earshot!--so i didn't pick up anything from hanging out with him, drat.
Now back to the shop for another round of gluing tables...i'll bet you guys are sleeping, aren't you???
Actually, Splintie, I'm up and just logged in to see what's up. How are you tonight?
I'm glad to hear you tried my little diagnostic and it was a help to you. I had to really think a bit to actually write out all the possible outcomes. It's normally something I just do without a lot of conscious thought.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Edited 10/16/2002 2:33:12 AM ET by Lee
Shims?
The starter may just be binding. Loosen up one of the bolts and shim the starter with a piece of sheetmetal so it cants to get the starter further away from the flywheel. They really used to adjust these starters like that. I think the machineing that surrounds the flywheel was not as accurate as they are today.
Shims... I figured since the starter has been running fine up until this last hiccup and has started the truck intermittently since, it probably isn't an alignment problem. Also, the starter doesn't even attempt to start now--wouldn't it draw a lot of current and dim the lights deeply if it were bound up from being misaligned?
SPLINTIE wrote: wouldn't it draw a lot of current and dim the lights deeply if it were bound up from being misaligned?
-------------------
YUP!
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
True, no dim no bind.
If the starter doesn't sputter & the lights don't dim, then I'd suspect the starter motor isn't getting juice in sufficient quantity. The solenoid contacts (not likely), a toasted starter or internal strap on the starter (had one of those on a '69 VW) that is melted/corroded or your battery terminal connection.
Have you had the starter checked or just the starter solenoid? It sounds like you have a bad spot in the starter caused by an open in one of the windings in the armature. Take the starter itself to a good shop that specializes in starters, alternators, etc. (an electric motor shop not an automotive repair or parts store) and have it checked. If it checks OK then look for a poor connection someplace.
This PTO driven chainsaw sounds interesting. Where do I get one? ;^}
The Professional Termite
Edited 10/17/2002 9:36:28 AM ET by Trialnut
Trialnut - Instead of pulling the starter and having it checked, I would suggest just rotating it (well, the timing wheel, actually) slightly - if it starts up, then there is a bad spot. If it doesn't, you can safely (although not 100%) assume that is not the issue.
Splintie - Do I understand correctly that you have already tried rotating the engine by hand and found that it has no undue resistance? If so, you might consider putting an ammeter across the terminals of the starter while having someone crank it - this will allow you to check whether the starter is even drawing the appropriate current.
Doug
To get the starter to rotate to a "non-dead" position by rotating the engine, using the flywheel or timing wheel (harmonic balancer), I believe the bendix on the starter would need to be engaged. How do you get it engaged without the starter motor turning? Doesn't it work on centrifugal force? The easiest way is to pull the starter motor out, a 10 min. job, and have the armature windings, commutator and field coils checked by a pro. Most places charge very little or nothing for this service. They hope to make their profit by selling you new parts. If the motor has ever been cranked over for a long time, more than 15-20 sec. straight, then there is a good chance it has an internal problem due to overheating it and melting the solder off the commutator connections.
I advise eliminate the guesswork and have it checked. Cheaper and less hassle in the long run.
Bottom line pretty much is if the battery is good, (new I think) and the connections are good, (new cables and cleaned) and the selonoid is good, (it is, thats the clicking thats heard) then it has to be the starter. If it was just a bad bendix you would hear the motor wind up and if it was a binding problem then you would either hear the starter gear grinding on the flywheel or the engine would turn over but the gears would not disengage after you let off on the key.
If this turns out to be something else I will be suprised. But, I have been suprised before. (That was my disclaimer)
The Professional Termite
Edited 10/17/2002 1:35:40 PM ET by Trialnut
WARNING!!!!!!!
Ammeters do NOT go accross the starter terminals. Current draw MUST be measured by placing an ammeter in series with the feed cable. Connecting it accross the starter terminals will SHORT the current from the battery through the solenoid contacts and the ammeter to ground, effectively welding them all and causing much consternation and spitten sparken.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Trialnut/Lee,
I stand corrected on both counts - rotating the engine would not help with the starter since it is not engaged except during starting (it will allow compression testing if you are so inclined, however), and you connect a _voltmeter_ across terminals (parallel), and an ammeter in series.
Sorry for the brainfart folks...
d-
Trialnut et al...
I just spoke with an electric motor rebuilder recommended by my Toyota guru...and the guy owns a '69 Dodge! "Keith" spent at least 20 mintues with me, told me about three other tests to do with a voltmeter to make sure connections are not the problem. (Black lead to barrel of starter, red to neg on battery should be <1.5V with key turned. Reverse leads and try again, should be <1.5V. Black lead to solenoid, red to pos battery should be <.5V.) He said the starter i have has come to be called a "tin-can" starter--it commonly has problems with its armature going fritz. The price for a rebuilt is still going to be high: $112 for a rebuilt starter from the rebuilders in Seattle from whom they purchase, more if he does it personally with $74 as his cost for the armature alone. I mentioned my fear of "rebuilt by Anonymous" and he concurred, but stood by his source as reputable.
So...since i've enjoyed about as much of this as i can stand, i've decided to remove the starter and take it to this fellow's shop to be tested under load, which he offered to do for me. Given its rep for armature problems, hopefully my quandry will end with him ordering a new starter for me from Seattle.
As an aside...i went out by moonlight last night and touched the pos cable to its post, to see if there was a little spark to indicate a current leak, but there wasn't. I know i could still have an open, but the starter is going to get tested by a pro before i start the laborious task of tracing wires.
I've tried to find out how the PTO-driven chainsaw might work since i saw it mentioned, but i can't find a picture. How convenient it would be: i could just drive my truck to a downed tree, jack up the rear wheels, cut up my firewood, lower the truck, load the wood, drive to the next tree, jack it up...sell my Stihl 025 to one of you guys who doesn't have a versatile Dodge like mine...
I learned a lot here--thanks to everyone for pitching in!
SPLINTIE wrote: So...since i've enjoyed about as much of this as i can stand, i've decided to remove the starter and take it to this fellow's shop to be tested under load, which he offered to do for me. Given its rep for armature problems, hopefully my quandry will end with him ordering a new starter for me from Seattle.
-----------------
Probably the best decision you've made since this starter trouble began, Splintie. Best of luck with your new (rebuilt) starter.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Thnaks, Lee, and i'll let you know how it turned out.
You know, Red, from the Lodge, built a nifty hydroponic garden out of his old granada. Used the water pump to water the plants in the former passenger area and used the rear wheel w/o the tire as a power hose reel.
You could make that for the Mrs. Just in time for Christmas.
My Dear Mr. Booch-
You know, Red, from the Lodge, built a nifty hydroponic garden out of his old granada.
My rheumy old eyes initially read your statement as meaning that your friend had made a garden out of his old grandpa.
At first, I was appalled. But as I reflect on it, you have given me an idea. Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Willis
I inititally read it as "canada" and thought immediately of composting my neighbors to the North.
Thank-you, Booch. I believe Chester would agree that was a perfectly luminous post.
Am pleased to see your getting a fix on the problem. Not much fun having a set of wheels that wont is it?
I was going to suggest giving the starter a whack with a ball pein hammer to 'unstick' it. But as you are getting professsional help, I wont. <G>
Wood Hoon
Still not fixed...the third place i took the starter to said they would do a load test on it. They couldn't figure out how to fix it down to their jury-rigged set-up and didn't have an answer for me when i asked if it mattered if the teeth on the starter were no match for the teeth on the other end of their testing device. I couldn't bear to watch...and these were the recommended guys. (shop decorated by Playboy...)
They also said the starter is fine (another no-load test)--big surprise. So i bought an ignition switch, a multimeter, and a few other things...but out of time for now to devote to running this problem to ground.
Did you get the tool bags and the tenon cutter i sent some time ago?
Sorry to hear your having so much trouble with this.
"..decorated with playboy....", err, thats a bad thing?? <G>
The bags and cutter hasnt arrived yet. I keep a pretty close eye out for it, but no luck so far. Might need to phone the postal service and find out if the carrier pigeon stopped off somewhere for a rest.
Wood Hoon
"..decorated with playboy....", err, thats a bad thing?? <G>
I just feel so inadequate...their manicures were flawless!
Manicures HMMM when ever I looked at them center folds I never noticed the manicures <G>
ToolDoc
LOL. the manicures are probably fake, unlike the rest of them. :)
Wood Hoon
Bad key?
Try the ballist resister on the firewall
If that fails like every else says yard art bury it up to the axles fill the box with dirt plant flowers :)
Edited 10/24/2002 8:19:53 PM ET by MUSTANG68428
Try the ballist resister on the firewall
OK, i googled on "ballast resistor" and it looks like i may as well pick up some points while i'm at it, if that's the problem. Then i need to find it; "a ceramic module with wires coming out of it" is the best description i found so far--any guidance for me? From what i've read, it sounds like the symptoms match pretty darn well! And i really like that price of that fix (<$10) compared to a new starter!
The ballast resistor is on the secondary ignition circuit and doesn't affect the starter circuit, neither do the points. Replace it if you are going through points every couple of hundred miles or so.
A good motor shop will have test equipment to properly test the starter coils and windings and the commutator. It doesn't actually need physical load if those tests are done. Connecting it to power to see if it runs is not diagnostic, measuring resistance is so even a simple ohmmeter will do it.
How many hours are you into this for now?
I couldn't see what it had to do with starting either, but in the link i gave, it's full of accounts of hard starting being fixed with new BR and/or points. Hey, if i manage to find it, why not? A good chance to find out if i still remember how to gap points.
Any opinions on these Mopar all-in-one distrubutor gizmos i saw called D.U.I.'s?
I figure about 35 hours or so, if i add it up in one place.
Hard starting is a step or two beyond where you're at and has to do with the cylinders not firing while the engine is spinning over. You think troubleshooting starters is fun, try hard starting!
D.U.I. probably refers to driving under the influence...................of testoserone. My BIL has spent about 25Gs restoring his Dodge Challenger 440/six-pack - scary fast. His type is the market for those sorts of gizmos although he wouldn't use it in this case because its not original equipment. I'm more the VW bus type, so I wouldn't really know about things like that.
Your hours are a worthwhile investment of time even if you're not up and running yet. I bet you'll never be stumped by starter problems again.
OK, Colleen, what's the status on your starter problem? I haven't heard from you in a few days. I hope all is well and the problem is getting resolved.
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
sorry I didn't get back to you sooner been out on the road for a while did the ballast res work for you.
Hi, Mustang and Lee.
Well, the Dodge sits, same status after all that stuff i replaced and checked, but i had to leave off tinkering with it last month to get ready for Christmas shows and getting stock to stores. When the paying gig is finished, i'll make another run at this with all that money i will make. <chortle>
Thanks to everyone who helped; i'll report when i have a successful conclusion to this business. Two greasy thumbs up for the Knots version of "Click & Clack"!
Frank,
It has been a dead hang around here for the last month or so.
....Only the last month or so? Bwaaahahahaha!!!
Dano
Jeeze, maybe Steve Schefer should come back.... Bawahhhh !!!!!!!
Don't know steve, but this is reminiscent (sp) of similar posts on other boards with much the same response.
What do you want to talk about?????
How about leaving this forum and doing some woodwork?
Hmmm! I've done my fair share today along with some mold and pattern making. What did you do? Why you on me anyway?
Don
Here we go again !
I guess I'll have to get drunk, enter the forum, read the pathetic posts and rip on morons like I used to, to get things stirring again. No one else is doing it? That's my "sage" advice. Tongue in cheek-just relax. Routers-fixed base, plunge base or D-handle? What's the very best decision? Huh Frank?
Oh, goody. A "people so mad that they metaphorically 'spittle on the screen so hard as they type that even I can see it as a bulge on my screen' type of thread." Maaagic. Oh, by the by--- my workbench still isn't flat, and that's a fact. Slainte, RJ.
Whose is, and what the heck is flat anyway.
Wow, a '66 power wagon... If you get too frustrated with it, I'd be more than happy to take it off your hands. I'm having plenty of trouble getting whole sheets of plywood home in my Mustang...
Seriously though, I was thinking about RJ's flat workbench problem. I remember a few years back I was with a company that did some machining and had a waterjet, and sent stuff out to get flattened. The process had a name that started with a "B" I think... it was with a huge spinning grinding wheel, but of course it used water for cooling, so you couldn't use it on wood...
Then there was this company that was making titanium actuator connecting links for the F-4 Phantom for me... They had these calibration/measuing tables that were 5"+ thick slabs of granite that were perfectly flat, but thousands of dollars and probably tricky to get into a basement workshop...
What's the secret? Could you just take a whole workbench top to a mill with a fat planer and have 'em make it perfect?
Ramblin', ramblin', ramblin'...
Kevin
If you're familiar with Woodsmith magazine and Shopnotes magazine, both by the same publisher, they have each had a workbench project in the last few months. Each project approached the base structure a bit differently, but they had very similar approaches to providing a VERY FLAT top surface, and it had nothing to do with laminated maple.
What they did was to glue up 3 layers of 3/4 MDF, making a heavy (as much as 180#), thick (2-1/4"), and VERY FLAT top with a durable surface. And the price was much less than laminated maple.
Horrors! Heresy! I don't think so.
In fact I plan to do just this when I build a new bench, hopefully later this month. I'll take 32" from each 4x8 for the top 2 layers and the two 16" (less kerfs, of course) pieces left will make up the third layer. I'll figure a way to align the 3 layers during glue up and edge it with Doug fir (good stuff, not 2x4 studs) and have a great benchtop for a very economical price. I'll be using good Doug fir for the base structure also, since it's plentiful and reasonably priced here in the great Pacific Northwest.
I invite comments.It's cooling off a bit here in Southwestern Oregon.
--
Lee
Lee
Sounds like a winner. I made an assembly table similar. Two sheets of MDF with a 3/4" sheet of birch plywood on top. I attached the birch with 1 1/2" sheet metal screws counter-sunk. The birch is banded with quater-sawn Doug Fir from old warehouse timbers. ( Very little movement ). The top is flat as I need for assembly. If I need, can unscrew the birch and replace with another piece or MDF.
IMO, go to it! It works for me... Have a good day. It's a very beautiful fall day here and I'm heading to the shop.
sarge..jt
I MADE THE TOP FOR MY WORK BENCH OUT OF MDF WORKED GREAT. ONE DRAW BACK. GET PLENTY OF POLYURETHANE. IT SEEMS TO SOAK UP AND ENDLESS SUPPLY ,BEFORE IT GETS TO THE POINT THAT YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A DURABLE SURFACE.
Frank -
Deal with it! (grin)
I've been a involved with graphics and CAD discussion groups for years - the same old questions and opinionated advice happens over and over. Newbies come, not-so-newbies go away, the die-hards stick it out. Have faith .... every once in a while someone comes up with something new. For the time being, anyway.
The trick I found in other groups is to scan the authors of the posts. Not so easy with this web type of discussion format. Would be nicer if this were a Usenet format. But what the hey ... wouldn't be able to keep the phone wires warmed up downloading all those nice graphics.
[email protected]
Maybe we need Higher percentage of alchohol in our carborators, will make any thread seem interesting..(at least in the short term)makinsawdust
Ed,
No, we just need to add a twist of sawdust. Figure out ways to convert Splintie's Ram Charger into something more useful: the ultimate mobile firewood machine or surface planer, harnessing exhaust gases and manifold heat to dry lumber; using drain oil as a stain; mounting a wedge on the bumper to split chair billets; ..... The possibilities are limitless.
Jeff
What a waste of a great truck that would be!
Waste of a great truck? I say not! More like accessorizing it, decking it out, adding all the bells and whistles.
Jeff
Funny you should mention rebuilding-for-amateurs: lying awake at 2 am, i was thinking that if these things can be rebuilt, why shouldn't i be able to manage it myself? I also going to see about diagnosing a short by charging up the battery fully with a trickle charger today, leaving the terminals connected and seeing if it goes flat overnight.
Does this damage the battery, i was wondering, to let it drain flat like that, if only for a short time? Temps get into high 20's at night now--any chance of freezing it if it hasn't been charged for long? When i got the batteries yesterday, i had to add a lot of distilled water to it to top them off...does this affect the charging?
Also, any books or sites anyone can recommend that would show me how to rebuild this starter? I went to a Dodge forum, but it wasn't searchable and in any case, the guys seemed mostly into discussing different kinds of trucks instead of fixing them.
Discouraged, but not stopped!
Don't think 20 degrees for a few hours will hurt. (?) If you can't find info on rebuilding that starter on line, go to the library and get a Chilton's manual.
Jeff
Your battery should be fine outside, but won't charge well at that temperature.
You can rebuild easily enough, but there are a couple of problem areas. The commutator, where you will need to ensure there is no continuity between the segments and that each segment stands proud of the mica by about .020 to .030" by undercutting the mica (fun,fun,fun) is one. The armature is another - you need to ensure no continuity between armature windings and commutator segments. The field coil is the last, where you need to ensure there is continuity between the field terminals and each field coil brush. The procedure is as well laid out in the Haynes automotive manuals, and you should have one for that truck just as an assist to troubleshooting and repair. In my experience, Haynes are the best.
The problem with rebuilding is that the nature of the problem you have will quite likely involve replacing field coils or armature, and wouldn't you know it, they are expensive and hard to find.
Just for interest, I checked the local auto parts store. They list back to '68 only (provided the engine/trans combination is the same in '64, should fit yours, confirmable with the part no. on your starter) for 102.00 Cdn for the Bosch rebuild or 115.00 for another brand. Get north of the border much?
Heres some ideas to get this place rocking,
How about a : "How flat should a work bench be" thread
or
"Norm woodworker or faker"
or
"DIYers vs Pros"
or
"What kind of pencils do you use"
or
" Where do you get your pencils from"
or
splines or biscuits
or
Is pocket hole joinery and modern power tools going to be thought of being the "traditional" woodworking of the future.
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Edited 10/12/2002 12:11:12 PM ET by Ron Teti
Thanks for the info on charging; i didn't know they charged more slowly in cold temps. I'll re-borrow the neighbor's charger when he returns and bring the battery indoors to connect it. It's been too cold and windy to play much of a mechanic the last couple days, so i'm shop-bound.
Thanks for checking on the price of a starter in Ca; i knew things are unusually expensive in MT. I'll be coming out to the coast in early November...but...aren't those rebuilt ones you're quoting, too? If i got a bad one from Canadia, i have little recourse but to eat starter. If rebuilt, i would feel more secure if i did it myself.
First, i need to do something to diagnose the problem better. I'll check the charge/discharge metere when i can try it again. I had this starter tested twice at two different shops--both said it was healthy, though i don't know if there is a rating system of relative health. I'll note the Charge/Discharge meter when i get the battery charged back up and installed. Maybe while i've got it off to get the part number---just in case i need it!--i can have it tested again and watch the performance.
Two other ideas i had: one, that just the contacts could need replacing. I recently recalled that something similar happened to my Toyota and it was a great $20 fix. I'm not sure this can be done with the Dodge since it is sold as a solenoid/starter unit. (Anyone want to discuss Japanese v. American engineering now?) Second idea was brushes. I couldn't find info on how often to do this, but it seemed reasonable that they would wear just like they do in tools. I tired to get one out while lying underneath the truck, but i couldn't budge it: either they're not meant to come apart or i need a bigger hammer.
I have the Haynes manual for my Toyota--very clear illustrations and directions, 'though the photos are muddy. Nothing on rebuiding a starter in it. I used it to remove my differential one time, but it turned out it was the new tires making it wobble. The tire shop apparently didn't balance them properly, then tried to sell me a new differential for $600. I thought, "Heck, i can do that!" I didn't have jacks or anything, so i dropped the thing on my chest, wiggled out from under the truck and looked it over. I confirmed with a mechanic friend that it looked fine. By the end of it, i had tire-saleman fur in my teeth!
Hi Splintie,
If you haven't already tried it, a quick diagnostic that I haven't seen anybody mention yet is as follows:
1. Turn on your headlights directing them to shine on a surface you can see from the driver's seat. Of course, if the headlights do not come on, you have either a dead battery, a blown headlight fuse, or a wiring problem - check accordingly.
2. Attempt to start the engine with the headlights on.
3. If the lights dim not at all, you likely have an open and are not getting juice to either the solenoid or the starter - check the wiring from battery through ignition switch to solenoid.
4. If the lights dim only slightly, current is getting to the solenoid, but not the starter - check the solenoid contacts and the starter continuity.
5. If the lights dim somewhat but stays at that brightness, current is going to the starter. If the engine is not turning over, something is preventing it (release the key immediatelyto prevent possible damage in the engine/starter) - check the engine.
6. If the lights dim somewhat, then slowly die out, the battery is weak - check the battery.
7. If the lights die out suddenly, the battery terminals or cables are corroded or otherwise not making good contact - clean the terminals and clean or replace the cables.
The effects on the headlights are quite subjective and vary a bit according to the particular vehicle, but with a little experience, a lot can be deduced from the electrical system behavior. This is, of course, a quickie elimination type check, not a definitive diagnostic. Still, it's a useful trick to know.--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Folks,
I've been moving and away from this board. Interesting how this thread turned out.
Frank
The shop testing the starter likely just put juice to it to see if it would spin, but didn't test under physical load. What you paid to have it done is a good indication of how extensively it was tested. If they disassembled it and threw the armature in the "Growler" (a testing apparatus), as well as testing the field coils, I'd take their diagnosis more seriously.
Test your battery with a battery hydrometer (~$5) or a voltmeter (12.5V, the .5 part being important). If your dash Guage is an ammeter (calibrated about +/- 60) rather than a voltmeter (+/- 12) it is more useful in diagnosing, reading close to 60 while holding START indicates starter is pulling a full load of juice with no effect......almost certainly bad starter.
Brushes are certainly worth checking, those and bearings and cleaning solenoid contacts are really the only practical form of rebuilding you can do yourself. Armature, commutator and field coils are replaceable, not repairable, but try to find a source. Haynes manual for wifes RX7 has rebuild instructions, my Jeep manual doesn't - I'll get a copy to you if you want.
Pricing is an American phenomena. Bought a rebuilt rotary for the RX7......$1850 Cdn including taxes, shipping engine from Calgary and shipping core back. Best US supplier wanted $2500 US, no shipping or taxes included, and they wanted $1000 core deposit, maybe or maybe not refundable depending on core condition.
Splintie,
To answer your question about batteries, a battery will slowly discharge on its own if not in use (not charged by the vehicle), this takes several months. A discharged battery can freeze, depends on temperature. A discharged battery will oxidize if allowed to stay in a discharged state. Lead oxide forms on the lead plates. An oxidized battery will probably not be capable of being recharged. Sometimes a trickle charger will succeed, but the battery will never be 100%. The above is based on a number of years experience as a motorcycle mechanic.
Bill, In the Qzarks
Oh , I get it..........turn it into a Prince George sports car!
You want to stir things up, here's some thoughts from the heart -
I use lots of tropical hardwoods in the things I build and really don't care if the countries they come from cut down every friggin tree they own - as long as I get to buy it at a good price - OK by me. They have a choice to make on their own about their national resources and I can't help them make that choice. Also wish the Forest Service would start doing more selective logging in our National Forests.
Obviously you don't care if your grandchildren (or that generation, if you don't have kids) ever, ever are able to build anything out of those same woods. Minor issue, that, in comparison with all the others your approach raises. Sheesh, I thought this was the 21st century.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Jamie,
Popping in from CT again. Welcome to the future--few seem to care what comes after them. This country is full of selfish folks. I am a cynic.
> ...., here's some thoughts from the heart -
Pretty heartless, guy. Are you aware of the precentage of the world's oxygen that comes from the rain forests of the world. Try breathing without it.
Trees do more than provide shade and raw material for woodworking machines.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Hi Frank,
Let's see.... Delta, Left tilt, and Norm IS a slob!
I don't know.... I've seen a lot more than this here on this forum. In fact this is got to be the one of the best forums going, don't you think so? No?
Paul
Paul,
Maybe I've been here to long. Same things discussed over and over.
Frank
The starter buisiness has been fun though.
Frank-
What a lovely creation is the Internet.
You start off complaining that nothing interesting is being discussed, and then you learn all about ballast resistors, helical gears, and stuff you'd never imagined existed. It's not woodworking, of course, but it's where people's deepest interests lie.
Do you think Floyd Patterson could have taken Joe Lewis? Did either own a left-tilt tablesaw?
Donald, you crack me up!
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