Replies

1. 
   billballeza | Nov 25, 2004 06:42am | #1

   I've actually addressed this topic before but I will gladly do it again.

   We were having our kitchen, utility room, den and living room completely remodeled by a company that relies primarily on one master carpenter named Ed.

   Ed had an old Craftsman portable TS that has definitely seen better days. Using this machine, and an equally decrepit chop saw, Ed built cabinets in the living room and utility room, did intricate (Federalist) moldings to frame several doors and openings, and installed the entire kitchen cabinet system from Woodhaven.

   Sometimes it ain't the saw, it's the craftsman.

2. 
   301 | Nov 25, 2004 08:08am | #2

   I think the Bosch 4000 is extremely accurate.  I can make rip cuts along the fence with fantastic results and even better results after I replaced the blade with a new Freud Comination blade.  The miter gauge is a different story however, there is a lot of slop in there but I have never been fond of using the miter gauge for cut-offs anyway.  A homemade miter-sled solves this problem and is a lot safer/more accurate.  In short I think the Bosch 4000 is designed with the crafsman/funriture maker in mind, and may be the only priced/sized saw so designed.

3. 
   nikkiwood | Nov 25, 2004 08:36am | #3

   I surveyed the lot of portable table saws a few years back, and decided the Bosch was the best of the breed. I use it as a job site saw, which means mainly ripping, since I also carry a 10" SCMS.

   I like it, but perhaps the best testimonial came from a contractor friend whose Dewalt was stolen. He tried mine, and bought it, since he liked it a lot better than the Dewalt.

   With some effort, I'm sure you can build most anything with it. The problem is, you can't jig-up one of these portables the same way you can with a cabinet saw.

4. 
   pgmrdan | Nov 25, 2004 06:11pm | #4

   I'm really glad you asked this question.  I've been searching forums and asking questions about this saw for a couple of weeks now.

   I have a 15'x19' workshop in the basement and really want to save as much space and money as I possibly can.

   I don't do large work pieces.  In fact, I haven't done much at all yet but I'm getting there.  I think the Bosch is the perfect size for my workshop and the price is right.  The only question I have is about its accuracy.  Will it be accurate enough?

   I've also read the reviews about the General International 50-185 M1 contractors saw.  It's ~$200 more than the Bosch.  (Bosch for $464 to $500, GI for $700.)  It received all 3 tablesaw awards in the 2005 FWW & FHB Tools Guide issue.

   The GI weighs in at 300 lbs and  has lots of vibration dampening cast iron.  The Bosch is much lighter (<100 lbs, IIRC) and is made with some aluminum and some plastic.  The GI has a true 2hp induction motor.  The Bosch is rated at 4.4 hp (YEAH RIGHT!).  Does it have a universal motor?

   The miter slots on both are the standard size so they'll both take standard accessories.

   The saws have similar footptints.  With the extensions extended the Bosch has a fairly large work surface.  The GI has a Biesemeyer type fence - BIG PLUS from what I hear.

   If I really needed a portable tablesaw the Bosch would be it, no doubt in my mind.  But I'm thinking that maybe I should shell out the extra money and get a saw that will handle the bigger stuff if I should later begin making big stuff.

   Whenever I post questions about portable vs contractor tablesaws I keep getting the comments about all benchtop tablesaws being bad but when I read books by Ian Kirby, Jim Tolpin, and others their comments are about how good the modern benchtop tablesaws are.

   Anyway, I'm also looking forward to the responses to your question because I'm in a similar dilemna.

   ---

   Edited 11/25/2004 10:15 am ET by Dan

   
   

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   Edited 11/25/2004 10:30 am ET by Dan

1. 
   crpaulk | Nov 26, 2004 04:40am | #5

   We have the Bosch saws and have nothing but good to say. We were all Dewalt (3 of them) but we build homes and the saws get used a lot. When I had to replace the Dewalts(Note the Dewalts were in good shape, but the teeth in the fence system clogged easily and we spent too much time cleaning them) I went with Bosch. We love them and until somthing better comes......I would rather have a big cabinet saw or even a big slider, but too big and heavy.

2. 
   301 | Nov 26, 2004 05:31am | #6

   I agreed with your skepticism regarding the 4.4 HP of the Bosch unit until I actually used it.  When the unit runs it does not give the impression of a unit that would have that many HP's as it is "odd" sounding compared to most saws.  But when actually cutting wood I have never noticed it to bog down or stall, far from it in fact.  Right now I am working on a huge project that has required me to cut hundreds of feet of 5/4 African Mahogany all of it on the Bosch.  It has never complained a bit and has accepted the stock no matter how quickly I feed it.  I have also cut 8/4 poplar, 5/4 red oak, 5/4 hard maple all with no problems.

   The "constant speed feedback system" that Bosch uses in the saw is also featured in the 1617 routers and many can attest to it's effectiveness in that unit.  I do believe it is a universal motor.  The plastic and aluminum case is fine since the motor does not have any vibration that needs to be dampened, it is very smooth.  I do miss being able to use magnetic accessories on the top but I also enjoy being able to pick the thing up and put it on a shelf when I need the floor space.

   Accuracy has never been an issue.  I can dial in what I need and it is always on the mark.  I find that the splitter assembly helps keep it accurate.  I was a little frustrated when I started aligning the guard/splitter assembly but soon discovered that a rivet was crossed which caused the guard to pull to one side, Bosch fixed that no problem.  If you buy one get the zero clearence plate for small stock.

3. 
   Dustmight | Dec 03, 2004 04:38am | #19

   Hi Dan - The Bosch seems to be the favorite amongst jobsite saws, and yes, it has a universal motor.  I have no doubt it's a good universal motor, but it's 4.4hp just like my shop vac is 6.25hp! (LOL). 

   If portability is a need, then the Bosch is an excellent choice.  IMO a well equipped contractor saw like the GI you mentioned has alot of advantages over a job site saw if you don't need to drag it to work with you.  Aside from the extra mass, there's rigidity advantages, fence and miter gauge advantages, motor noise and reliability advantages, but probably most important to me is the extra 5 inches of table in front of the blade.  If the extra money isn't a major factor and you won't be storing it under a bench, then I don't see an advantage to choosing a jobsite saw for your main saw if you don't have to.  I see it as a full size vs compact pick up truck type comparison.  Different strengths and weaknesses that suit different purposes.

   BTW - The October issue of Pop WWing has a great article about the pros and cons of all the different types of saws. It was one of the better articles I've read in a long time.

   Good luck.  

    

1. 
   pgmrdan | Dec 03, 2004 04:31pm | #20

   "I see it as a full size vs compact pick up truck type comparison."

   Funny you should mention this.  I drive a compact pickup truck (Toyota Tacoma) when I'm not driving my '73 VW Super Beetle.

   The compact pickup truck gets me from point A to point B just like my Ford F-150 did back in the 80's.  It turns on a dime and is much easier to park than the F-150, plus it's much more economical on fuel.  It carries everything I need it to haul.  The F-150 was overkill.

   Yes, there are advantages to having a full-size contractors saw but there are disadvantages too.  The portable saw doesn't have some of the disadvantages.

   The ONLY disadvantage that has concerned me all along is the one you mentioned about the distance from the front of the saw table to the front of the saw blade.  The contractors saw has about a 4.5" advantage.  To me, that's not worth the aggravation, expense, and inconvenience.

5. 
   Vanman | Nov 26, 2004 06:06am | #7

   Hi there.

   New to the forum,

   I have the bosch saw and love it. I am a custom cabinet maker/ finish carpenter. I have a shop with a large cabinet saw so the use for my Bosch is mostly site work. It is quieter than most other saws in it's class. With the soft start technology you don't get that sudden torqued start and the constant response system reserves hp and when the motor senses bogging, it kicks in additional power to keep it running smooth.

   We could of purchased dewalts or makitas and had similiar results on our finished product. I am a firm believer that a skilled craftsman makes the tool not the other way around. But when you invest your money you want to do it wisely, more thought has gone into this saw than the others. I would recommend this saw both as an auxillary job site saw or as your only small shop saw. If this will be your main shop saw, compliment it by making some extension tables to stabalize cutting larger material.

6. 
   zendo | Nov 26, 2004 06:16am | #8

   Im a finish carpenter and painter, as for "exact" you are right, most guys in the field work production and the painter has a huge caulk budget.  The furniture guys bring out the ruler with the 64ths on it which I think is killer, but no one will pay for the time it takes. As for saws, the makita is a finish carpenter standard. Its inexpensive about 300 bucks, and light even with a full metal stand. I have a Hitachi 10" compound mitre that leads its class, but their table saw is horrible, and has a non universal mitre gauge bed that you cant add aftermarket jigs or fence rails among other problems. So the company makes no difference. 

   I have recently done this search and the others in its class are the Dewalt, PorterCable and the Ridgid which I havent seen any info on but the furniture on it is incredible, and it has a nice milled surface for its price. 

   There have been some good points here, but if you want more testimonials look at the tool reviews on Amazon.com for the Bosch and the other saws for that matter.  I think the Bosch leads the pack for that size tool, and all the support features right down to a cord wrap were well thought of.

1. 
   heyoka | Nov 26, 2004 04:54pm | #9

   Thanks for the responses everyone! It seems the furniture folks have the same comments the homebuilding folks do in regards to this saw. One comment which I believe in as well is that the craftsman makes the tool all it can be. It's a portable saw not a cabinet saw, and that says something. It will obviously have some limitations, mostly with sheet goods, but I rarely use those anyway. Small cabinets, tables, and chairs are mostly what I build. One of the guys I work with thinks I'm full of it when I showed him some of the pieces I've made without a table saw. I used my bandsaw and jointer and it works just fine, when that's all you have. It's not always easy, but it can be done. I remember watching the Forrest rep. showing what a good blade can do on an inexpensive saw. Didn't really think much about it at the time, but now years later it's all too clear. It seems in our woodshops we should ask ourselves if it's all really necessary. All the tools we just had to have to get a job done, which maybe never got used again. We would all grow as craftsman if instead of purchasing a dovetail jig for example,we just sat down and said, "Now how can I do this using what I already have?".  We would learn more of our tools, and more of ourselves. That's why I like the idea of the Bosch saw and I feel confident it will work for me. Thanks again everyone! 

1. 
   lizurd | Nov 30, 2004 04:25am | #10

   I beg to differ somewhat with the other posts. Is the Bosch a good saw? Yes it is - the best of breed. However, it is designed as a portable table saw. If that is what you need (portability), then I would buy it. Otherwise, I would spend the extra money on a good contractors or cabinet saw. Just because a good craftsman can produce nice work with the Bosch does not mean that it does not have significant limitations.I bought the Bosch table saw for many of the same reasons that both you and Dan stated. Recently, I sold the Bosch and plan on buying either a hybrid or cabinet saw. Of all my tool purchases to date this proved to be the one that I regret. Save up a few additional bucks and buy a different saw unless you require the portability.bc

1. 
   heyoka | Dec 01, 2004 01:47am | #12

   Yeah I know what you are saying, BUT, because I am a trim carpenter I do need the portability. Otherwise something stationary would be more suitable. Thanks for the 2 cents!

2. 
   pgmrdan | Dec 02, 2004 03:12am | #13

   bc,

   "Just because a good craftsman can produce nice work with the Bosch does not mean that it does not have significant limitations."

   Can you give me 3 or 4 examples of "significant limitations"?

   "Of all my tool purchases to date this proved to be the one that I regret."

   Why?

   Out of all the comments and reviews I've read about the Bosch in the past few weeks, you are the only one I've come across where an actual owner of a Bosch 4000 made negative comments about it.  Any other negative comments I've seen were where people were generalizing the old cliches about old bench top tablesaws and applying them to the Bosch 4000.  I've even read where Jim Tolpin and Ian Kirby had positive things to say about the power and accuracy of the current crop of good portables available.

   ALL other comments and reviews I've seen by people who own or have owned the Bosch 4000 have been very, very positive.

   I'm looking forward to seeing your reasons for your statements.

   Thanks, Dan

   Edited 12/1/2004 7:25 pm ET by Dan

1. 
   lizurd | Dec 02, 2004 04:37am | #14

   Dan,Some of the Bosch's limitations:- The aluminum table was not at all flat (no I didn't check the exact amount that it was off).- The table is small in general- Slop in the miter slots. Also, they are not t-slots.- Fence is too short to keep anything longer than about 3 feet (maybe less) straight.- The blade will not stay at the height you set it at - it drops a bit when the motor starts.- In general it is difficult to get the saw to tight tolerances and some, such as flattening the table, are impossible to do.- Yes it has a universal motor. And yes 4.4 hp is a joke; the most that you can get from 15 amps @ 110 is ~2 hp (1.5 is probably more accurate).- No, it does not slice through everything like butter. 4/4 material is not a problem, but it is quite easy to bog the saw down with 8/4 material.I could go on, but I think that you will get the point. Please note that this is not meant as a critique of the Bosch, but is instead a list of some of the limitations that I ran into. The Bosch is a very nice saw for a portable. But if you do not need a portable then don't buy one! In hindsight I realize that I basically talked myself into buying the Bosch for the wrong reasons and now after gaining some experience I have sold it and am correcting my mistake. Buy the right tool for the job. I can tell you from my experience that you will definitely end up building bigger stuff than you think and the Bosch will not be able to handle it as easily as a larger saw - larger table, longer fence, more precision, tighter tolerances.If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask.bc

2. 
   pgmrdan | Dec 02, 2004 05:36am | #15

   bc,

   Here's what I found on the Bosch 4000 I bought Monday night  using a nearly new Woodcraft 24" precision straight edge and a set of feeler blades.

    

   "The aluminum table was not at all flat (no I didn't check the exact amount that it was off)."

   In two small areas I could get a .008" blade under the edge.  There were a couple more places I could get a .006" blade under the edge.  There were several areas where I couldn't get a .002" blade under the edge for nearly the full length/width/diagonal of the table.  .008" was the largest amount I found.

   "The table is small in general"

   Yes, but it's the biggest in its class.  It also has a right extension as standard which lets you use the fence to rip 25" to the right of the blade.  Optionally you can get a left extension and an outfeed extension (I have both).  I'm not saying I would want to do it but I have seen a 4'x8' sheet of plywood ripped on the saw by 1 person.

   "Slop in the miter slots. Also, they are not t-slots."

   Yes, they're not T-slots.  The slop (?) between the miter gauge bar and the miter slots is between .014" and .018".  I have tried many miter gauges on contractors saws that seemed (I didn't measure) to have much more slop.  I think that's why there's such a big market for better miter gauges.  If you want accuracy a miter gauge isn't the way to get it anyhow.  A crosscut sled or other arrangement is the way to get accuracy.  A miter gauge is simply a convenience where accuracy isn't of the utmost importance.

   "Fence is too short to keep anything longer than about 3 feet (maybe less) straight."

   At a length of 23 3/4" I think the fence can handle something significantly longer than 36".  Like I said, I've seen a sheet of plywood ripped on it.  Also, when I shake the ends of the fence it doesn't budge at all.

   "The blade will not stay at the height you set it at - it drops a bit when the motor starts."

   I haven't seen this to be the case.  I do know that on the cuts I've made the saw blade gullets have stayed above the surface of the wood.  If what you say is true then I'm sure I'll notice it when I use a dado set.

   "In general it is difficult to get the saw to tight tolerances and some, such as flattening the table, are impossible to do."

   I think the table flatness is already at very tight tolerances especially for woodworking.  Everything else I've seen is adjustable so I think it's just a matter of how much time I'm willing to tweak the saw to get it right, just like on a larger saw.

   "Yes it has a universal motor. And yes 4.4 hp is a joke; the most that you can get from 15 amps @ 110 is ~2 hp (1.5 is probably more accurate)."

   True.  And it's a quieter, smoother universal motor with soft-start.  It's almost vibrationless.

   "No, it does not slice through everything like butter. 4/4 material is not a problem, but it is quite easy to bog the saw down with 8/4 material."

   It does slice through 4/4 like butter.  Personally, I can't see myself using 8/4 oak or maple but I have read that it will cut these woods.  I can bog down a contractors saw with these woods too.

   I'm not saying this saw is for everyone and maybe after owning it a couple of weeks I'll take it back for a refund and get a contractors saw but for now I'm going to give it a shot.  It has too many advantages not to give it a try - smaller, lighter, less expensive, very precise, etc.  So far, it's my kind of saw.

   Dan

   Edited 12/1/2004 9:49 pm ET by Dan

   Edited 12/1/2004 9:55 pm ET by Dan

3. 
   301 | Dec 02, 2004 09:04am | #16

   I will agree with most of your observations and will back up your findings.

   I do not see the need for a perfectly flat top on a table saw either.  In fact I have found big old cabinet saws develop a "dip" in the center (where the most wear is?) but have never seen where it was enough to cause a problem.  I have never even bothered to measure the flatness of my 4000's top.

   Small table tops don't bother me either, in fact I find them liberating.

   I do think there is a lot of slop in the miter slot but as with big cabinet saws I find they develop slop over time, a homemade miter sled is the answer here.  I have never liked making cut-offs with a table saw anyway.  I use my miter-gauge with my router table most of the time and almost never use it on the table saw.

   With the splitter/guard in place I can make parallel cuts 8 and 10 feet long.  Every time I try it.

   My 4000 blade has never dropped down (coming up on 2 years of heavy service). 

   I don't care how many HP it really has, it is more then enough for furniture construction.  Mine has never bogged down even once.  I have cut 8/4 poplar and 6/4 red oak, no problem.  I even experimented with using it to resaw and it was fine with that too.

   I just don't see any of these problems anyway.  I found getting rid of my Delta "boat anchor" to be a truely liberating experience.  When I need the floor space I can pick it up and set it out of the way.  With a precision miter saw I just have so little need for my table saw anymore, I think I was relying on it too much.  So I retooled and  rethought my need for power tools.

4. 
   pgmrdan | Dec 05, 2004 09:12pm | #25

   Just an update.

   I used the saw some more yesterday.  With the stock blade it cuts through 6/4 maple like it's butter.  It doesn't miss a beat.

   With the adjustability I'm able to get it to cut beautifully.

   This week I'll begin making a crosscut sled.

   The more I use it the more I like it.

2. 
   pgmrdan | Dec 02, 2004 05:31pm | #17

   heyoka said,

   "I remember watching the Forrest rep. showing what a good blade can do on an inexpensive saw. Didn't really think much about it at the time, but now years later it's all too clear. It seems in our woodshops we should ask ourselves if it's all really necessary. All the tools we just had to have to get a job done, which maybe never got used again. We would all grow as craftsman if instead of purchasing a dovetail jig for example,we just sat down and said, "Now how can I do this using what I already have?".  We would learn more of our tools, and more of ourselves. That's why I like the idea of the Bosch saw and I feel confident it will work for me."

   I like your way of thinking.

7. 
   jazzdogg | Nov 30, 2004 05:45am | #11

   I use the Bosch with a factory-modified Forrest woodworker II, an ATB with the tips of the carbide ground flat to produce a flat-bottomed kerf, and I have been very satisfied with the results I am able to achieve.

   -Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

8. 
   jc21 | Dec 02, 2004 06:33pm | #18

   I think the Bosch 4000 will work fine for you. A similar situation for me .......... moved, no place for a permanent shop (yet) and a full size cabinet or contractor's saw. I looked at the Bosch 4000, DeWalt DW 744S, and the Porter Cable 3812S and wound up with the PC. Been pleased so far. As noted in previous posts any of these saws has their limitations and even then you can usually work around them and I think any of them has the precision you require. The biggest annoyance for me has been crosscutting wide stock. These saws generally have only about 6"  from the blade to the front of the table vs 12" of a full size saw. The PC does use a t-slot for the miter gauge which helps and besides, it gives me an excuse to go and buy a new Makita LS1013 ;). If you have a SCMS or a radial arm saw it's a non issue. If portability is really important, Bosch has a new wheeled stand for the 4000 than looks really slick. I wouldn't overlook the PC either. Fwiw here's a link to JLC review of these saws. http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/41af236700189a3127177f000001059d/Product/View/0308saws 

9. 
   SRToolguy | Dec 04, 2004 08:20am | #21

   Give me a spinning blade and a garbage can lid I will cut exactly and precisely everytime once I know what to expect and what I need to do to achieve the cut. Using it once a week might not be enough to remember exactly what its going to do in every situation but use it everyday and eventually I could learn how to produce some very very fine work. Some of the finest examples of woodworking were produced with far less. When was the portable table saw invented?

   So, the answer to your question is yes, the Bosch 4000 can be used to produce fine furniture. The learning curve will be much steeper than that of a full blown cabinet saw but you can do it.

   Sincerely;

   The Tool Guy

   
   

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   Edited 12/4/2004 12:28 am ET by Tool Guy

1. 
   OverKnight | Dec 05, 2004 01:38am | #22

   I have the Bosch 4000, and I agree with most of the points made here.  One point that hasn't been made is dust collection; this is the messiest power tool I've ever used.  Admittedly, I've done nothing yet about building a dust collection system I haven't even hooked up a vacuum to it yet), but this thing spews sawdust 360 degrees.  I bought the Bosch so that I could move it outside if I had a lot of cutting to do, but even a few small cuts makes a big mess.  Don't waste your money on the sawdust bag.   I repeat, don't waste your money on the sawdust bag.<?xml:namespace /><o:p />

   Besides the mess, the only other points I'm not happy with are the table space in front of the blade and the slop in the miter gauge slot.  Depending upon how high the blade is, my old Craftsman had about 6" more room than the Bosch.  That, plus the slop in the miter gauge, makes the Bosch less than accurate for squaring-up pieces longer than 12 - 14".<o:p />

   This being said, I think it’s a good saw.  El papa is right; build a miter sled to accurately rip and square larger pieces.  I have not noticed the blade lowering during use, and if this saw bogs down, you’re either using a dull blade or you’re pushing the work into the blade to quickly.  Previously, el papa has recommended replacing the blade that comes with the saw.  I thought the stock blade was pretty good, but he may be right; it seems to dull quickly.  I’ve just picked up a Freud combination blade.<o:p />

   I do agree with Lizurd on one point, though; you may be happier with a larger stationary saw if you don’t need the portability of a saw like the Bosch.  However, heyoka specs a portable, so I think he’d be happy with the Bosch, realizing the limitations the smaller table presents.<o:p />

   I’m not a hacker, but I’m also not a professional carpenter.  I wish my skills were good enough that any unevenness in the table were a problem.  I found the rip fence to be quite good.  Out of the box, it took maybe five minutes to make it perfect.  The motor is very smooth and has been powerful enough for everything I’ve thrown at it.  The built-in outfeed and extension tables are great.  The newest Bosch stand has wheels, removing any advantage its chief competition, Ridgid, has.<o:p />

   It’s not a Powermatic or Unisaw, but I don’t think the work I produce would be any better on them than the Bosch.  Bill’s right; “sometimes it ain't the saw, it's the craftsman.”  Vanman put it well also: “I am a firm believer that a skilled craftsman makes the tool not the other way around.”

    

1. 
   301 | Dec 05, 2004 08:33am | #23

   I think you are right about the dust issue when using the dust bag but if you attach it to a dust collector it catches most of the dust.  But even with a DC some still manages to trickle out of the front and land on the floor near your feet. 

2. 
   nikkiwood | Dec 05, 2004 09:42am | #24

   Re: dust collection and the Bosch. I use the Bosch for job site work, and routinely use the accessory bag. I don't know what you are expecting, but I have always been impressed with the amount of dust the bag alone collects. However, if dust is an issue on a particular site, I hook it up to a standard shop vac, and I would say the collection is about as good as it gets for power tools.