Bosch vs. Festool jigsaw: worth $100 dif
So after a few years of not-so-faithful, frustrating service, my Craftsman jigsaw gave up the ghost trying to fight its way through some 3/4″ plywood. Good riddance.
My interst in woodworking and my appreciation for decent tools came along after the Craftsman and I am determined NOT to buy another tool based on price a lone.
I was at a store this morning that just recently started stocking the Festool brand. Looks like well made stuff meant to last a lifetime. With prices that would take a lifetime to pay off!
At another store (shopping for different item) I loked at the Bosch. Both tools have a 6 amp motor, easy-change blade system, and claim to have good guide systems to keep the blade from deflecting.
So, though I want to get over my inherent cheapskate ways, is the Festool really worth $100 more than the Bosch? For that matter is the Bosch worth $50 more the DeWalt?
Your opinions based on experience are appreciated.
Ian
Replies
Probably not!
They are all good tools your best bet would be to try out each one and see which one you like the best. See if the stores will let you demo them in the store.
Edited 4/27/2005 4:58 pm ET by MPHARPER
The Bosch is signifigantly better than the Dewalt, and well worth the 50 bucks.
I've had a Bosch barrel grip jigsaw for almost 10 years. It has seen a fair bit of professional duty, with no ill effect. The newer ones have just gotten better (the new tool-less adjustments and blade release, etc).
I can't say that I know anything about the Festool, but I can be certain that the Bosch will more than surpass your expectations.
I have the Bosch & Festool. The festool is by far a better machine. I have used both older & newer Bosch saws, there really is no comparison between the Bosch & Festool. It depends on your needs.
Craig,Care to expand on your comparison. I have a Bosch and its OK except for no dust collection.Just curious how the Festool is so much better. I'm trying to put a combo together to get to the discount structure with Festool.Thanks
The festool is a cut above. Use them both & you'll understand. I think the festool has a better cut quality than the bosch, DC is a plus, chip free cuts, the blades are a bit thicker which helps making curved cuts w/o deflection, easily set back to 90 degrees, has less vibration,etc.
One issue I don't care for with the bosch & others is blade deflection when making thick cuts or curved cuts. I've experienced this with bosch, Dewalt, & others. Unless the new blade guide is exceptionally better than the old, I don't expect the new bosch to be much better than the old design.
If you take both machines & try to compare them for 15 minutes, you won't notice much difference to justify the extra cost. Use them for a day & you'll be reaching for the festool over the bosch. You won't care about the extra cost.
Blade deflection is my biggest gripe with jigsaws, I just thought it was inherent in the design. That could be worth it.I'm not about to dive in but its good to know. I'll have to see if any independent tests use blade deflection as an evaluation.Thanks,
Bosch has been the standard in jig saws for a number of years. I love the barrel grip and will always have one. I know there are a lot of Festool people out there, bot IMHO if you are not concerned about dust collection at the source, the festool stuff is probably over priced.
Bear
I agree with Bear.
I have both the Bosch and the Festool. Some people like to have the best of everything, and I think Festool is probably at the top of the sabre saw category (at the moment). But from a strictly functional point of view, I think cut quality is about the same on both, although it seems to me the Festool runs with a tiny bit less vibration.
However, the Festool does have an excellent dust collection system (true with all their tools); and if this is important to you, then yes, I think buying this tool would be worth the extra money. On the other hand, dust collection for a sabre saw is not, in my opinion, a big deal.
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Perhaps a crazy question but here it goes. I have limited space and money but would like a saw that can cut accurate curves for chair legs and some other work. I know a bandsaw is the correct tool but right now I am short of cash and space and I am not going to waste anymore cash on "starter" tools that dont do the job right. Would either of these tools be a reasonable substitute for a band saw? Ignoring of course that resawing and curves on thick peices would be impossible on any jigsaw?
Tom
Tom,Not a "crazy" question at all.I used an older Bosch model for years for that very purpose. I still have a plate that supports the saw, which you can chuck into a vise (with the blade pointed upward), which allows you to use the saber saw just as you would a band saw. The problem with saber saws, as I think you are aware, is blade wander. Both the Festool and the new Bosch 1590 have made strides with their blade support systems -- and the wander problem is not nearly as pronounced as it was with earlier models. It does mean, however, that you would have to do more handwork (than would be the case with a bandsaw) on your legs (with rasps, sanders, etc.) to get them acceptably straight. This is not a difficult process. From what you say about your situation, I would forget the Festool and buy a Bosch 1590 -- and thus save yourself a $100. It is a very high quality tool, and I think it would earn its keep in your inventory for years to come. Also, there are a lot of very dedicated and knowledgeable hand tool aficionados here at Knots. I would suggest you post a new thread, with a title something like "Hand saws for curved cuts" -- and see what they have to say. You need to remember that most of that fabulous furniture you see from the 18-19th centuries was made with hand tools. Aside from saving a lot of money on power tools, it is not a bad thing to spend time developing your hand skills as your fund for buying tools accumulates. Good luck."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Thanks for the advice concerning jigsaw verses band saw. I am going to start saving for the Bosch. I also need to do some reading about hand tools to form nice curves.
Tom
I've had a barrel grip Bosch for more than 10 years and last year bought my father a D-grip Metabo (he doesn't like barrel grips). I've often mounted the Bosch upside down in a sub-table to have both hands free when cutting shapes.
What I have found is that the blade you use makes a big difference. The best blades I've used are made by Festool (and cost about $3 each). For critical cuts in expensive timber they're worth the expense.
Ian
You're certainly right that some blades perform better than others -- as far as the wander problem is concerned. I spoke to a Bosch rep about this sometime ago, and he recommended one of his blades for best performance in 2X material. I think it was the 101B, but I can't remember for sure ( they're in the shop). They were noticeably better than other Bosch blades. When I bought the Festool saber saw, it came with a couple of blades -- which by eye, looked exactly the same as Bosch. Do you really think they made a difference (when compared to the Bosch blades). Do you have a number for the one you might recommend for the smoothest cut in 2X material? Thanks."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Is there any good information about just how much blade deflection is still left in the new bosch design? I have had enough bad experiences with my Black and Decker jigsaw that I don't want to spend all that money for the bosch and then see I am still getting the same problem. I posted a knot about the B&D saw a while back and everyone said that the bosch is a world of difference. But if blade deflection is still a large problem I don't know if the bosch is really that much better.
Tom
I have the Bosch and the Festool. The Bosch is a great machine, but the Festool is a bit better. I bought the newest model Festool when it first came out for $195, which, I think was $25 off the reguar price. I would like to sell my Bosch for $100 plus mailing, if you are interested. It is the barrel-grip, which I personally find more controlable than the top handle. [email protected]
Hello Tom,
"I also need to do some reading about hand tools to form nice curves".
I suggest you can make a good start by referring to page 17 of Tage Frids book "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking-Joinery:tools and Techniques".
In the absence of a decent band saw there is not much better than a Bow Saw- and you can make it yourself.
I dont see how a jig saw would be able to make semidecent curves for legs without blade wander due to the thickness,hardness of the wood and if your stock is greater than 1" how would the blade discharge the chips not to mention the stress on the blade(heat buildup) and worse the machine.LOL Pete
There is no real reason to spend $100 more for the festool. It is a better tool, at least in performance I don't think it has the longevety track record of a Bosch. The cut quality is marginally better and a little more....consistant when you are guiding it. But it dosen't make a single bit of difference in the end product.......... You still have to sand. I don't know if it can take a deeper cut though.
my 2 cents,
Mike
As long as a blade is flexible and supported at one end only, deflection will result from improper technique. Uneven pressure and workpiece torque will induce drift, in bandsaws and jigsaws as well as sabre saws. I have produced many, many feet of Victorian gingerbread work in 1 1/2" stock before resawing into 3/4-, with some drift occasionally when I force a too-tight curved cut or get in a hurry .... again, this is poor technique on my part. At times, the set of a blade will be compromised by the first twist or bind, and it gets worse from that point on.
Of late, I have had fun with the Bosch 14.4v cordless jigsaw/bayonet blade combo .... cutting scrolls .... and with a couple of extra batteries, it continues indefinitely.
For blades, one can patiently await lots of 50 or 100 on Ebay for as little as 25 cents apiece .... a price that's hard to beat. The Bosch website includes a comprehensive listing of all the blades they offer with usage recommendations. You just have to get past the repeats for package sizes of 1, 3, 5, 10, 25 etc. Nearly every blade in the Bosch lineup has been offered in the last three months. Wish I knew where these guy's were getting them!
Oh yes, ....Bosch corded or cordless has my vote. Spend that extra $100 on another tool you need!
John
In terms of using a pure hand tool to cut the curves of a chair back, or a cabriole leg, a rip bow saw will do the job, and a bit quicker than you might think. It does take some practice, and a sharp saw, but it can be done, and was done for years. A rip bow saw has a pretty narrow blade (mine is about 3/8"), is filed rip of course, and has a bit of a pronounced set, which lets the kerf be wide enough to accomodate the turns. Mine is from a chair and sofa man who retired in about 1950 or so, and I bought it from his son, who did the same thing, and retired at age 70 about 3 years ago. But I thnk that some shops still carry the blade, and making such a saw is pretty easy, or maybe they are still around. When cutting the long back of a sofa, sometimes the angle of the cut changes together with the curve, and the hand saw will permit this. You should have seen this fellow remove wood with a spokeshave. Wow. It was like an electric planer at work with the chips flying. It was a two man shop (fahter and son), plus a carver, and they made furniture for catalogue houses. Nice stuff, period oriented, mostly upholstered, but to them it was a living,not an art, so speed was of mcuh importance.Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Alan,
I made a new wooden sub-frame for a 1954 MG-TF years ago using a then top of the line bosch jig saw. It was from kiln dried Vic Ash (a eucalypt) and the max thickness was 42mm. Wander was up to 5mm on curves, and hand finishing this caused a fairly serious case of tennis elbow (time pressure before moving and I am now much better at sharpening).
I have since made a bow saw for the Lee Valley blades - definate learning curve but well worth the effort - and bought a 16" band saw. My father has asked for a new sub frame for his recently acquired Stutz vertical eight 7-seater. I won't be doing that with anything but the band saw, but for tight curves, the bow saw is still much quicker than changing the blade on the band saw.
David
Thanks, guys, for all the input on the Bosch vs. Festool question. It's been a couple weeks, but here's a follow-up:I decided to heed the advice of several posters who suggested the Bosch was a perfectly good machine and the extra $100 could be better spent elswhere. In fact, I went one further and checked out the used market on eBay. I ended up getting a Bosch 1587 (5.5 amp) variable speed saw for $60 including shipping. By my calculations, that saved me $200 vs. the Festool.The saw arrived yesterday and, while obviously used, it has not been abused (I guess at the price I got it for the previous owner couldn't even be bothered with wiping off the saw dust before dumping it in a shipping box). I downloaded a .pdf owner's manual from the Bosch website. Though I haven't actually cut anything with it yet, everything seems to check out and I expect it to be a good, solid tool for many years. My ego doesn't need a spic & span new tool; I'd rather have the money for lumber.Thanks for opinions.Ian
So after having all of us think that you were serious about pondering the worth of reaching for the very top you decided to look for the bottom. Your question should have been, "Is a used, outdated Bosch worth more than a new Ryobi for the same price?" Don't delude yourself into thinking you saved $200 over buying the Festool because you came nowhere near to equal value. The 1587 is not a bad saw, I have one and like it, but you did not "go one further". You went 180 degrees the other way and basically trawled along the bottom hoping to come up a pearl. I do hope you find the saw satisfying, and you probably will, but when the next guy asks the same question you asked, you will have nothing to contribute.
Greg
I beg to differ that I would have nothing to contribute. I would say that I did go at least one further, probably several in fact, over my $30 Black & Decker that died. My question was about the extra expense of the Festool over the Bosch. The answer I got form the contributors here was that, while clearly a beautiful tool, the Festool was probably NOT worth the extra $100. I would have happily considered a used Festool except there are none. I am fairly certain the Bosch will accomplish what I want it to and that money will actually go into making things.There is an analogy here between woodworking and photography (both of which I practice). In the world of photography there are camera collectors and people who actually make photographs. There are many people who are simply fascinated with the tools (toys) of the craft and have put together impressive collections of Leicas or Hasselblads, but those cameras just sit on the display shelf. It's a fine hobby, I suppose, but I'm more interested in what can actually be done with those tools. Same with woodworking tools.So, if you will excuse me, I have to go make something.Ian
<< I would have happily considered a used Festool except there are none.>>
And why do you suppose this is?
<<There are many people who are simply fascinated with the tools (toys) of the craft and have put together impressive collections of Leicas or Hasselblads, but those cameras just sit on the display shelf.>>
I should infer from this statement that Festool jigsaw owners are merely vain tool collectors? Any issue of Shutterbug is loaded with ads from folks who market these collectables. As you pointed out, there is no such market for used Festool jigsaws, or any of their other tools for that matter. That is because they are valued by their owners for their utility.
You asked the question and you got a range of opinions. No big surprise. To come back with the conclusion that Festool owners are mere collectors is ludicrous. You don't even value Bosch enough to buy their best offering, which is a significant improvement over the saw you bought. You postured yourself as someone who was looking for the best value/price-point combination, but clearly at the higher end of the value spectrum. You went from $260 down to $160 down to $60. By this logic path you should have bought a used coping saw at a flea market. I stand by my statement that you still have nothing to contribute to your own thread. For the record, I have a Bosch 1587, very used, and a Bosch 1590, a much better tool. They are fine tools but had I known about Festool that would be what I have now.
Greg
Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with the path this guy (Ian) traveled. He posed the question about B vs.F, and then obviously decided his best course was to buy an older, used Bosch. What's wrong with that? You seem somehow offended that he did not end up buying one or the other -- either the Festool or the new Bosch."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
<<Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong with the path this guy (Ian) traveled.>>
Just to clarify a little, I am not offended by his choice. I even stated that his choice provided him with a very serviceable saw, one which I also own. The choice did, however make his original question irrelevant, relative to the choice he made.
The newest Bosch and the Festools have two significant features that differentiate them. Both of them originated with Festool. One is the extra support just above the worksurface which stiffens the blade signifcantly, cutting down on the tendency for out of square cuts that can ruin the piece or necessitate extra work cleaning up the surface.This is probably the single most common complaint with jigsaws. Folks who use these tools for a living should value that improvement for savings in time and materials. The second nice feature is the quick release of the blade which is also a timesaver. After that, it becomes a question of vibration, longevity, power, etc. I find it interesting that neither of these features are present on the saw that Ian chose. Again, that is okay, but it makes his choice incongruent to his original question and this thread. If he had decided to 'save the $100' and had chosen the 1590 Bosch, because he felt the Festool wasn't worth the difference, it would have followed the concept he laid out of looking for the best value/price-point. Instead, he has basically said, 'You know what, I don't think either are worth it.' I am not offended. I just question his commitment to his original question.
Greg
Greg,You and I are getting down to the nitpicking/differing interpretations thing. I went back and read Ian's original question, and it was my take that he was just kind of idly throwing out a question as he was pondering how to replace his dead Craftsman. He'd heard about the Festool and the Bosch 1590, so he floated a question soliciting opinions/experience with the two. I said my piece, and you said yours. And a lot of others offered their input. Ian took it all in, and obviously decided he didn't need to spend the money for either. He checked Ebay and found a used Bosch for 60 bucks that is a quantum leap better than his dead saber saw, so I assume he is as happy as a pig in the mud.......Now, here's why I am making this a bigger deal than it should be. There is a strange dynamic at work in some quarters around here. You’re not one of them, but I think there are too many people at Knots who think their way is the only way. It’s as though disagreeing with their advice is somehow invalidating their decisions (on machines, for instance) or their experience. You got my hackles up when you (post 22) told Ian “you will have nothing to contribute” (when the question about sabre saws comes up again). Ian is a newcomer (April 18), and I feel (strongly) that Knots is a better and more interesting place if everyone is allowed to make their own decisions without recriminations from some one of us – because they didn’t follow our advice. I hope you take this in the spirit I have intended it. I value your contributions here, and the last thing I want to do is anger you so that you will shut off your spigot. And of course, if you disagree with anything I’ve said, I hope you will express it.********************************************************
"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Greg,
Us Festool owners could be considered collectors....of other brands of tools that have been replaced by higher quality tools....
Now...where to put that display case full of PC, Bosch, and Dewalt equpment just collecting cobwebs in the shop....
<<If having sharp tools is important to you, money should not be an obstacle. Buy the most expensive that you can afford. Think long term.>> Metod
Words to live by.
Ian,
I was just now skimming through this long thread and picking up bits hear and there and thought I would add. When I was a wee lad I would help my father load his OLD Delta 6" jointer in the back of our OLD POS station wagon along with his old Craftsman router,router bits wraped in T.P. his skill saw and misc. hand tools, off he would go to set up in a customer's garage to build a kitchen.We had little money and no shop. His work was second to none and his reputation was tops in our area. His tools were not choice but the best he could come up with concidering the times. What my Father taught me was that you can do a lot with a little. So if you found a Bosch Jig saw for 60.00 good for you. IMO a used Bosch is just as good as a new Bosch with the exception of the blade change and will do every thing you want. So you hang in there and keep looking for those deals and when you cant find one buy the best your money can buy and keep posting here with your questions and we will keep helping you. Have a great Sunday. Rick
Fair enough Metod, I felt quoting you was a simpler response. You were right about fettling a flea market plane to achieve great things. I do not, however feel it is possible to fettle a Ryobi to behave like a Bosch.
To everyone, especially Ian, I want to say I came across a little harsh and the observations from the rest of you about that are taken in good humor. I perhaps misinterpreted Ian's question. My take was that there were two innovations that set the Bosch and Festool apart from vitually every other tool, the extra guide and the quick blade release. It was my feeling that Ian had maybe recognized these as nice features that he would like in his next saw and wanted only to know if there was anything else about the Festool to spend the extra for. When he chose a different path I felt his describing it as 'going a step further' was erroeous. That was the though process behind my remarks. For the record, I had bought a Bosch SCMS a while back when they had their promo; free 1587 jigsaw, free miter blade or some other free thing I can't remember. Even though I already had the 1587, which has a Collins coping foot on it, and a 1590, I got the jigsaw. I gave it to a good friend who had some ancient saw of unknown pedigree. The 1587 was, to me, far more desirable than the other offerings, and it gave me pleasure to make a gift of it.
Ian, enjoy your Bosch, you did get a good tool.
Greg
Greg,I have been following this thread, at times amused, at times aggravated. But, in the end, I appreciate the learned input of people with more experience than me.I can see how you would think I went the way other way. The best analogy I can think of is if I had posted a query about buying a Rolls Royce or Bentley and then buying a used Mercedes in the end. But keep in mind the Mercedes was to replace a dead Ford Taurus.For the time being, the 1587 is a quantum leap over my DOA jigsaw. I may have jumped a bit prematurely at the price, not stopping to think about what developments the 1590 or the Festool offered. A bit of time with the 1587 may reveal that I really do want those features and I may opt for one of those in the future; if that's the case, the $60 spent on 1587 is a small investment in better tools. In the meantime, I respect the Bosch name and reputation (don't try to get the Bosch dishwasher out of my kitchen without a serious fight!) and look forward to using the 1587 as a perfectably servicable tool.I take to heart your insights and advice.Ian
(don't try to get the Bosch dishwasher out of my kitchen without a serious fight!)okay, have you looked at Fisher&Paykel? You cant even hear it run, sanitizes by steam cleaning, and you NEVER have to change blades....... Aloha, Mike
"okay, have you looked at Fisher and Paykel?"
Indeed I have- in the May 2005 issue of Consumer- not very encouraging comments....
Sorry , since the thread got mutilated early om I could not resist this comment.
Apologies to American friends.
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