Brands, attitudes, & quality tools.
At the end of the latest SawStop thread, mudman Mike asked me: “Working at a retail store with all these machines side by side, how would you compare the SS to PM66 or General. Forgetting about the brake technology I think the SS is still superior to the others in castings, machining and fit finish.”
To answer your question, Mike, I think that PM and General are pretty close in quality and features, and close in quality to the SawStop. Both have a combination of U.S. made and Taiwanese machinery, and both have good reputations. In terms of appearance, the fit and finish and big handwheels of the SawStop are very impressive, with the Powermatic close behind, followed by the plain-jane industrial appearance of the well-made General/General International lines.
A bit on my background: I’m a 64 y/o widower who has done a bit of non-precision home repair, shelf building, kit-assembly, auto and appliance repair, vacuum tube audio, etc., etc. all my life. I retired nearly 3 years ago from a career of mostly in technical sales and computer network administration, but personal and financial issues forced me to go back to work last year. I am just learning to do fine woodworking/joinery, and am primarily focussing on box-making at the moment. I am a member of the Sonoma County Woodworkers Association (http://www.sonomawoodworkers.com) and go to monthly meetings, mostly held at member’s shops, to learn from our amazing collection of crastfmen and women. I currently work one day per week selling services for a friend’s precision machine shop, and 4-1/2 days per week in a local Santa Rosa, California “tool and supply” store where we sell primarily to the woodworking trades (contractors, cabinet makers, furniture makers, etc.). We also do a fair amount of business with homeowners and hobbyists as well.
We sell everything from traditional Stanley saws & hammers to huge production woodworking machinery, typically handled by our outside salesman. For small to mid-size woodworking machinery, we are a dealer for SawStop table saws as well as the complete lines of Delta, General, Jet, Powermatic, and our budget line, ShopFox
With respect to brands, customers report more problems with U.S. made machinery such as Delta, and some issues with Powermatic than in the past. I tend to believe that Chinese/Taiwanese made stationary tool are getting better, and U.S. made goods are not what they used to be. U.S. made products still carry a high dollar premium. Both here and in the far east, business no longer take pride in quality, but worship the bottom line. The pride that U.S. workers used to take in making machine goods is disappearing as the old timers get laid off and retire. Apparently, many of the factory workers in the far east, unlike the recent past generation of Japanese, also either do not take pride in their workmanship and quality, or are not allowed to do so by the bean counters. When bad reviews or other reports of poor quality hit the forums and magazines, manufacturers react and quality goes up, at least for a while – that is the time to buy. The 18″ Jet bandsaw was upgraded recently after doing relatively poorly against the competition in a FWW review.
In addition to Delta, DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, and Milwaukee hand tools, we also sell Festool and Fein, but I don’t use hand power tools enough to justify the cost of buying one, nor do I currently need the remodeling/handyman features of the Fein MultiMaster. (I do own a Fein Turbo III vacuum, which replaced an old howling Craftsman Shop Vac. It is a superb vacuum – it’s quiet, it really sucks [pun intended] and the auto on/off triggered by hand tools is an excellent feature. For those who can use Fein and Festool every day, I highly recommend them in spite of their high price. In my first 3 months of working at the store, I have not heard even one contractor express regret about a Festool or Fein purchase – in fact high praise is uniform.
Bottom line, when someone comes into the store, I ask them if they have a “brand preference.” If so, and especially if they already have one brand and voltage of cordless tools, I tend to stay with that brand/voltage. Otherwise, I simply relate what I believe to be the advantages and features of various brands, and try to hone in on what seems to appeal to the customer. The SawStop is an impressive machine. Large table, heavy duty everything, and fit and finish are excellent.
I really like Powermatic – fit and finish are superb, but for a hobbyist with a fairly modest budget, I cannot justify the extra cost. I currently lean towards General and Jet for stationary machinery. Delta is o.k., but quality seems a little hit-or-miss lately, although I may get one of their drill presses. For hand tools I prefer Bosch or Makita, and except for drill/drivers, generally prefer corded over cordless tools because of their longevity and the fact I work in a shop, not on job sites.
It would be nice to have a SawStop table saw in my own shop, but even after I “re-retire” in a year or two (I’m 64 y/o), I plan to stick with a good non-SawStop table saw. I currently use have a 2.5 year old DeWalt hybrid saw with stamped wings and stock fence. For the cost of replacing the wings with cast iron and adding a Biesmeyer fence, I can sell the DeWalt, and buy a General International hybrid saw with cast iron wings, a Biesy-style fence, a fully-enclosed base and excellent dust collection. It has a 2HP dual-voltage motor, but 2HP is really pushing it for 120V, so I run what I my dual-voltage machinery on 230v to keep the current draw down during startup and under load.
My current favorites for my own shop are General and Jet. The upgraded 1.75 h.p., 18″ bandsaw I referred to earlier in this post will go into my shop next week – I plan to do a lot of re-sawing, including short logs from tree trimming/removing companies . For small planers, I like Jet for the short bed 6″ and General International and Powermatic for the longer bed 6″ and 8″ models, although I think PM is best for pros and deep-pocket hobbyists, and am leaning towards the General 6″.
My shop currently contains is a collection of different brands, the selection of each based on my personal prejudices at the time of purchase from reading, reviews and articles, and talking to other woodworkers. I have a P/C 890 series 1-1/4 h.p. router in an MLS table, but will probably get a P/C 7518 with a Jessem Master Lift for the table and a Bosch laminate trimmer for light-duty hand routing. I have a Performax 10-20 drum sander, but it is small and under-powered for some of the work I do, and I will probably replace it with the 16-32 version. I have a DeWalt 734 bench-top planer that works o.k., but is under-powered for wide hardwood, so I will probably upgrade to a General or Jet 3hp, 15″ unit. I decided to NOT get a combination belt/disc sander and a oscillating spindle sander, but instead plan to buy a Jet or General 6″x89″ edge sander. A Jet or General 6″ jointer is also on my wish-list. I took a spindle-turning class and have a Rikon mini-lathe and Crowne lathe chisel set which I have not yet used. Dust collection is a very quiet canister-equipped Jet 1 h.p., 650 cfm unit. I will add a Jet overhead air cleaner this winter, because my shop is a big sealed, semi-underground 2-car garage. I have one car, and most of my “stationary” tools are on mobile bases to move the out to the center of the garage when I park the car outside. The Jet 18″ bandsaw will be the first stationary tool in my to have a permanent spot.
When my shop is complete and my skills improved, I hope to make fine-woodworking boxes and other artistic pieces and enter them in juried shows. Hopefully, in a couple of years I can quit my sales jobs and provide a modest supplement to my retirement income by making and selling fine woodworking objects.
Dave van Harn
p.s. Take a look at the pictures taken in the shops of the guys who write various books on woodworking and tools here at Taunton/FWW – you’ll see a motley collection of hardware, but these guys do excellent work. It’s too easy to get caught up in brand-name arguments when nearly any good tool/machine, whether old or new, will do an excellent job when properly tuned and maintained, and with cutting edges kept sharp. Old tools aren’t as energy efficient as new ones, nor do they have as many bells and whistles, but they are often rugged and well made, and keep their tolerances for many decades.
Replies
I wonder why your message was truncated !
C.
It was truncated because it's long and comprehensive, not because of any intrinsic value or judgement. You can click on "view full message if you really want to read it. You reply to my post seems a bit snarky since it is very obvious that the truncation is strictly a programming parameter chosed by the forum designer. Other sites I participate at have posts that range from many times longer than mine to as little as a single word. Variety is good!The young generation thrives on cryptic and short messages, but I guess I'm a bit old fashioned and like to delve into details when appropriate. My post was a discussion with some personal background thrown in to help people know where I am coming from with my opinions. People here don't know me yet. Most of my future posts will be shorter - some much shorter. Dave van Harn
Sebastopol, CA
I was a little sarcastic there, I am younger than you but not by much.
Long posts ? I skim them and unless the content seems REALLY interesting I don't bother getting into it.
I am not so sure people out there are interested in your life history, I am not.
After all this is a woodworking forum.Sorry but you asked for it.C.
C,
I am with Dave concerning the content of posts - I like them to have some.
Of course, if one is brought up with Micky Mouse and Co. or other televisual fodder, one tends to have a short little attention span and cannot take in complexity or detail. On the other hand, one may become very good at quiz shows, especially those about television "characters" and their important doings.
I recommend practicing a longer attention span by reading Richard Feynman: "Six Easy Pieces" followed by "Six Not-so-Easy Pieces". Although I have concentrated very hard and followed the narrative thread, I am still a a bit puzzled; but woodworking books now seem easy to absorb, in comparison.
But this post is already too long for some.
Lataxe the brief
Lataxe, old boy, give me a break, I am in the middle of Proust's à la recherche du temps perdu !C.
<"...I am in the middle of Proust's à la recherche du temps perdu !">Munching on a madeleine, no doubt...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Actually on a batch of "pet de nonne" !C.
Edited 9/13/2006 9:03 am ET by citrouille
Glaucon,
I saw you talking about Proust. I thought to myself. Yea, I remember --Juliette Proust -- a great-looking red-headed dancer from a few years back. So I Googled her. No answer. Then I tried "Juliette Prowse". Yup. There she is. Just as I remember her. Gorgeous. Great dancer.So who's this Proust person?
:-)
Mel
PS - Aha!! Marcel. Forget it. I liked Juliette better. Je ne parle pas francais.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
<"So who's this Proust person?... Aha!! Marcel. Forget it. I liked Juliette better.">I dunno. Sometimes I think I could spend 20 years in bed...Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure. Parfois, à peine ma bougie éteinte, mes yeux se fermaient si vite que je n’avais pas le temps de me dire...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
C,
When she was younger and more keen, I bought daughter No. 1 a large collection of Proust. (She has a Masters in Literature and reads the most obscure stuff). Of course, I had a glance at Marcel but found myself unable to get to the end of the first sentence (page 53).
These days the daughter is herself a parent and already Marcel is gathering dust on a shelf.
I fear my attention span is insufficient for Troo Intelektooal stuff. I managed to read Dave's post, though (just - I hereby nominate him for "The Knots Proustian Post Award").
Dave, I like history and rambling thoughts, so look forward to more of yours, in due course. Mind, you may have to reciprocate and read mine. Did I ever tell you about how I spent a large proportion of my retirement lump sum on [truncated to preserve the Knots server hard disk space - Taunton Verbiage Police].
Lataxe, not good with novels but never reads comix.
Lataxe old man,
Richard Feynman! Surely you're joking?
;-)
Ray
Please dont say you are sorry, you said it then live with it.
I thought the personal information Dave provided was relevant.
It gave context to his opinions. This is important, because there is rarely a single answer to the question "what is the best?" For a retired hobbyist it is one thing, for a high-end production cabinet maker it's another.In addition to being relevant, Dave's answer provided human-interest. How many people
on this forum are intent solely on a rapid-fire answer to a factual question?
If you are, you can always choose to ignore the extra details. I don't come here for feature-length biographies but it is interesting to hear what influences a person's approach.
Are we going on for ever on this issue ?
Yes I was a little sarcastic when I wondered why the message was truncated, ...big deal !
Lighten up will you, life is short.C.
Great post. It may be long but so is life and it gives a lot of creditability to your opinion. Keep them coming.
Brian
Are you guys realizing that we are not discussing the contents of the original post but the length of it ?C.
You wrote this:
Seems to me that you put your finger on the root of a lot of problems in this and other online forums. I would add one small point: it's not only rapid-fire answers, but rapid-fire judgements that cause a lot of problems here.
Edited 9/24/2006 10:48 am ET by MatthewSchenker
dvanham,
Thanks for your extensive post!
By the way, would you consider joining the Festool Owners Group, over on Yahoo? I mention this because your insights could be very helpful to members over there who are considering these tools. The group has people at all skill levels, from those who are just curious about the tools to those who are professionals using the tools every day.
And we have no qualms about long, intelligent posts!
Here's a link to join:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FestoolOwnersGroup/
Thanks Matthew,We have the Festool display right in front of the long sales counter in our old store. Yesterday, one customer, a remodeller/finish carpenter who looked to be well into his 70's, came in to buy an $80 right angle adapter for his $480 12v D-handle Festool drill/driver. He is not independently wealthy, but believes in efficiency and high quality tools that save time and last as long as possible. A second customer came in and the older contractor began telling him how great the Festool products were. Turned out the second guy also had one or two Festool power tools, and was equally enthusiastic. I find it remarkable how universally popular Festool products are with their owners. I will check out the Festool owners group and see if I can join. Since I have live in an apartment and have a simple garage shop for making small rectangular and turned boxes and other generally smaller projects, I don't have any Festool products yet. However, I may buy one of their incredible jigsaws later this year.Dave
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