Replies

1. 
   Danford_C_ | Apr 15, 2002 05:32pm | #1

   Bob,

   I think the #271 is too small; you could use a #71 with a fence.  When I run a goove by hand I use my #45 or my J.Larue plough.....FWIW.

   I'm curious, why a spline for the bread board instead of a pegged (from underneath) mortise and tenon?

   Dano

   "Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
2. 
   Alan | Apr 15, 2002 09:54pm | #2

   Bob,

   If you don't have a #71 or a plow plane you can cut these grooves very easily just using a chisel.  After you scratch your lines use a sharp knife to cut the lines a little deeper.  Then just lay a chisel about as wide as the groove is to be, between the lines, bevel side up for with the grain and bevel down for end grain, and pare down to the proper depth.  Start at the far end and work back towards yourself.  On the end grain, make a cut back towards yourself first, to avoid tear out.  With a sharp chisel this is not at all difficult to do and is just as fast--if not quite as simple--as doing it with a plow plane or router plane.  Using this method you can also stop the groove short of the ends, so that the spline does not show at all.

   I'm with the first response.  Why a spline?  Even if you don't have a rabbet plane, or other plane to cut the tongue, you make a tongue--again--with a chisel.  On a long tongue like this you would cut the shoulder line with a saw down to the proper depth, then just peel off the wood down to the bottom of the saw cut.  You can put a piece of tape on the saw at the proper depth.  To start the saw, after scribing the line, use your sharp knife again to cut the scribe-line a little deeper.  Then use a corner of a sharp chisel or your knife--if it's sharp and has a pretty hefty blade--to cut a little "V" along the line.  Be sure to use the knife or chisel on the waste side.  This will give the saw a little trench in which to start.  Then use a wide chisel (sharp!) and peel off the excess wood.

   All this is harder to explain than it is to do.  It is not nearly as difficult as it might sound.  Besides that it's fun:  the wood zips right off under the chisel, and the work goes very quickly.

   Alan

1. 
   Idiopathy | Apr 16, 2002 12:14am | #3

   Thanks to both of you for your advice.

   I apologize for my misuse of terminology - The joint is indeed a tongue-in-groove, not a spline. I'm still pretty new at this...

   I'm going to try using a small chisel for the groove like you said, Alan.

   Thanks again,

   Bob Shonk

1. 
   Danford_C_ | Apr 16, 2002 05:27am | #4

   Bob,

   Even if this is a decorative breadboard end, just a tongue and groove joint is not recommended.  It would be a pitty if something fairly heavy was placed near the egde and caused the joint to fail...

   Dano

   "Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright

   Edited 4/15/2002 10:29:20 PM ET by Danford C. Jennings

1. 
   Idiopathy | Apr 16, 2002 07:22am | #5

   Dano,

   Thanks for the heads up. Perhaps I should reconsider my design. Two more questions, if you will:

   The tongue is long enough (over 1/2 inch) that I could probably put some small pegs through the bottom of the breadboard end and into the tongue. This would hold the end piece more securely to the top, but I'm thinking it probably wouldn't reinforce the tongue itself from failing (I guess the issue is whether the glue bond on the end grain is the weakest link, or is it the strength of the wood components themselves?). What do you think?

   Also, assuming I used pegs to strengthen the joint: During assembly, should everything be glued at the same time, or could I glue the breadboard end to the top, let it dry, and then drill holes and glue in the pegs?

   Sincere thanks for helping me out. I'm probably a little over my head on this project - a walnut desk for my mother, for which I'm glad to only be charging the cost of materials (much less anxiety). I live in an apartment and thus only have hand tools. I've heard people complain about their workshops on this forum before. I have to laugh. My wife is going crazy over the condition of the 2nd bedroom/workshop. It's carpeted!

   I might be nuts, but I love it, and I'm learning a ton.

   Cheers,

   Bob Shonk

1. 
   Alan | Apr 16, 2002 07:05pm | #6

   Bob,

   A "breadboard" end--or perhaps more properly a "clamp" or "clamped" end on a top should NEVER be glued!  (The idea originally was to "clamp" the ends of the panel so it would not warp; breadboards are often wet.)   A clamped end panel is a classic cross-grain joint.  This means that the grain in the two pieces meet at right angles. 

   As you probably know, wood expands and contracts during changes in humidity, and to a lesser extent, changes in temperature.  As the wood absorbs more moisture from the air it expands, as it loses moisture it contracts.  But--and this is the all important but--it expands a great deal across the grain and practically not at all along the grain:  i.e., a board will gain width but not length.

   If you glue two pieces together with their grain at right angles, when the board glued on its end grain tries to expand or contract, it cannot move because it is held fast by the glue joint.  The power exerted by moving wood is immense; so if it cannot move as a single panel, it will tear itself apart.  Gluing a cross-grain joint almost guarantees the joint will fail and/or the panel will crack wide open.

   A clamped end should be held on with dowels.  (First, you might want to make your tongue a little wider.)  Three dowels will usually do nicely.  Only the middle dowel should be glued to the tongue; the others should float in slots cut into the tongue and be glued only to the clamp (again, the clamp is the "breadboard" end).  After you have cut the tongue and groove, put the clamp in place and drill your three holes for the dowels through both cheeks of the clamp and the tongue at the same time.  Then remove the clamp and using a file--or the drill bit, if you want to risk it--widen into ovals the two end holes in the tongue.  When you permanently attach the clamp, again, glue only the middle dowel to the tongue.  On the other two dowels, put a dab of glue on the bottom hole in the clamp and another dab on one end of the dowel.  Then put the dowel, dry side down, into the hole and knock it home.  (BTW, this is an excellent project to learn how to draw-bore!)

   FWIW, I've made lots of clamped panels on lesser material than walnut; sometimes the cheeks of the groove and the tongue have been only 1/4" of pine.  And I have never had a joint fail.  The reason, I think, is that the most likely way for such a joint to fail would be for the tongue to break (the cheeks of the groove are too well supported).  But the tongue is cut across the grain, not along it.  Wood has tremendous shear strength across the grain.

   Alan

2. 
   Danford_C_ | Apr 16, 2002 07:09pm | #7

   Bob,

   I'm not familiar with Mr. Gibson's aritcle but, I've always recommended following the plans, especially if one is new or novice to furniture making....

   Awhile back there was an an excellent discussion on breadboard ends, this was before The Move.  So, I won't put you through the agony of trying to do a search here.

   Basically, a breadboard end is a combination of mortise/tenon and tongue/groove joinery, done properly it is a fairly time consuming joint to execute with the proper tools, by hand or with electrically powered tools.  While I suppose anything can be done, this is not a joint I would attempt with a chisel.  "Traditionally", glue was not used on breadboard ends, it's main purpose was to prevent splitting of the unsupported boards on tables and to hide the endgrain, so accross the grain movement had to be allowed for.  With the adhesives available today, this is not as great a concern as it used to be.

   I'm certainly not trying to dissuade you from this project but, I am trying to dissuade you from going with a tongue and groove approach with the breadboard ends.  I do not know the dimensions of the bread board, the amount of overhang, or the dimensions of the stock used for the top....

   The April 2000 issue, #141, of Fine WoodWorking has an excellent article on bread board ends by Charles Durfee entitled "Trestle Table with Breadboard Ends."

   Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright

3. 
   Alan | Apr 16, 2002 08:24pm | #8

   Bob, and Dano,

   Sorry Dano, but I have to disagree with you--three times.

   First and foremost, modern glues do not lessen the danger in cross-grain joints.  They increase it.  Modern glues bond better than hide glue.  As a result, the glue joint is less likely to fail:  i.e., the wood in the joint will be held tight regardless of how much pressure it applies in trying to expand or contract.  That means the panel is more likely to split, not less likely.  The only two circumstances I can think of where modern materials would make such a cross-grain joint less likely to cause damage are: 1. if the material used is plywood; and 2. if the wood is entirely incapsulated by a water-impervious sealer such as epoxy.  If the wood is sealed so its moisture content cannot change it will not move with changes in the weather.

   Second disagreement:  true, many clamped ends are made with through tenons (or, I suppose, stopped tenons too) in addition to the tongue, but it is not necessary that a clamp-end panel be so constructed.  A simple tongue and groove joint will be ample.  And, to repeat myself, I've made many such panels and have never had a failure.

   Third:  again repeating myself, cutting this particular joint with a chisel is not at all difficult.  Try it.  It is a little more time consuming to make that way, and you must take a little more care in what you're doing (you cannot rely on the tool for alignment, to stop at the right depth, etc.) but that doesn't make the job particularly hard to do.  (You should, of course, practice on some cheaper wood before you try the expensive stuff.)  Like Bob, I did all my case work in an apartment for several years.  Needless to say I did not test my neighbors' patience by firing up a router or skill saw.  I used hand tools exclusively.  The very first clamped panel I ever made I made using the method I outlined--successfully.  I still have that piece of furniture.  Again (time after time redundantly repeating myself over and over...) it just isn't that hard to do--and, it's FUN.

   Alan

4. 
   Danford_C_ | Apr 16, 2002 08:49pm | #9

   Alan,

   Why apologize for disagreeing?  I don't believe I said that today's glues will eliminate cross grain movement, I said that movement on this particular joint  it will be of less concern.

   I've never seen a breadboard end with through tenons, so I have no comment in that regard.

   Again, I didn't say that using a chisel to cut a groove is impossible, just not something I would attempt.  But then, I have the "proper" hand tools to do so, as I previoulsly alluded to; my #45 or J.Larue plough....I also have a couple of Audburn T &G planes but, they are not serviceable yet.

   To each his own...

   Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright

5. 
   DaveinPa | Apr 19, 2002 05:21am | #10

   Hey guys and gals, lets sit back, get a brew and relax. Weather you cut a groove with a router, plane or chishels, in the end it doesn't matter. What matters is what the finished product looks like. Right.  I don't want to add fuel to the fire but I use a Stanley No. 66 when I do smaller grooves and a good old soft hammer & chishels for larger grooves. But, however you do it the results are what counts.

   Dave in Pa,

6. 
   djpp | Apr 19, 2002 05:28am | #11

   cheers Dave'

     You make a good point that is too often overlooked. there is more than one way to skin a cat.

          Dave