Hi,
I’ve read various reviews on the old style brett guard. Most of the reviews were positive. Only problem being… mounting the guard was difficult. It says it works well with contractor style saws. Price isn’t too bad either. few hundred less than the newer Brett guard.
Someone suggested that the Cantilever style Brett guard is much better. User friendly and easier to adjust. It doesn’t get in the way.
First time I ever heard of the Brett Guard was after reading a book on the table saw by Kelly Mehler.
Right now I have no guard on my table saw. The one that came with my 10″ king contractor saw was a useless piece of junk. More dangerous in my opinion. So I threw it away.
Isn’t the splitter more functional than the anti kickback fingers that come with many guard systems. TAfter all the anti kickback fingers only grip the wood once the kickback begins. Isn’t it better to prevent it in the first place .. which is what the splitter does? So couldn’t I just attach/clamp a “half fence” to my table saw fence.. positioning it just in front of the blade which prevents the wood from pinching between the fence and the blade as it passes over the back of the blade, eliminating kickback. Therefore not having to spend a fortune on a guard sytem?
Wanda
Replies
"So couldn't I just attach/clamp a "half fence" to my table saw fence.. positioning it just in front of the blade which prevents the wood from pinching between the fence and the blade as it passes over the back of the blade, eliminating kickback. "
Pinching between the fence and the blade is only one cause of kickback. Another notable one, that is not mediated by your half-fence idea: case-hardened or otherwise tensioned wood that springs together at the kerf when cut. I've had a piece of oak do this, and thank heavens I was using a 1.5 HP motor, not some big honkin' 5HP cabinet saw motor. Stalled the motor. Otherwise, my west wall would be decorated with an oak spear.
I'll caution against ever thinking that, by some mechanical arrangement, you've eliminated kickback. A dangerous lulling of the brain, that is.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Right now I have no guard on my table saw. The one that came with my 10" king contractor saw was a useless piece of junk. More dangerous in my opinion. So I threw it away."
"Isn't the splitter more functional..."
I think that the splitter is the key to safe operation of a table saw, and until this week, the only safety related "accessory" I've used on my saw*. Prior to ripping a piece of wood, the only thing you can't visually verify as a possible problem is the board closing or spreading along the kerf after it's beyond the blade. A good splitter prevents a board that wants to close from pinching the blade, and a board that wants to spread from coming off the fence. Anti-kickback pawls on the splitter are an added safety measure, but if the splitter is doing its job, they're probably overkill.
So with kickback solved, running your fingers into the blade is the issue to consider. I've yet to see a blade guard (included with a saw or after-market) that doesn't get in the way of a smooth, efficient push past the blade, and in my mind, that is much more dangerous than working without a net. I know that anything can happen, but I believe that if you practice proper technique and keep your mind into the cut, you can work safely without a blade guard.
*So on the asterisk above: After reading another post and subsequent threads from a week or so ago, I decided that maybe I should give this blade guard thing a chance. I installed a home-made guard and am planning to give it a two-month audition. I can say that so far, I REALLY hate it and still think working thoughtfully without one is the way to go. But I guess the best advice is, if you think you need to use a guard, use one. I'm going to give it a shot, but I don't think you should feel like Evil Knievel for sawing a cappella.
Mike -- how 'bout showing us the guard and filling us in on what is you hate about it? Fodder for a good discussion.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Mike -- how 'bout showing us the guard and filling us in on what is you hate about it? Fodder for a good discussion."OK, here it is. What I don't like about is that it's in my way and thus a hindrance, which I think makes the process more dangerous. But, like I said, I'm going to give it a shot to see if I can get used to it.
"gets in the way".....hmmmm.....well, I guess they all do, but maybe to varying extents?? I have the Penn State unit, same basic design as the Excaliber, and while there are times when it does bug me, it's mostly when working with narrow stock, or when I crosscut with the miter gauge and forget to set it high enough for the miter-gauge fence to clear.
I do think that a scissors-type suspension is more convenient than the rigid style your's has, because the hood can simply be nudged up with the stock you're cutting once the knob is loosened.
If the thread you referred to is the huge one about blade guards, you probably saw this link for a home-made Excaliber-style guard, and this one on the Penn State version, but I'll throw 'em in here for other readers.
Hmmmm, ah, here's that thread:http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=24191.1
Hoping you get comfortable with your guard.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forestgirl,
Guess I am deserving of a good tongue thrashing. I have been tempting fate by not using a decent guard system on my table saw.
Thanks for the link. I read every post. The pic of the mangled thumb made me squeezy!
I went into my local tool store today to check out aftermarket fences and guard system. Found out they do sell the Excaliber overhead guard system. Comes with a hefty price tag though. $460 Canadian (taxes in) But Hey that beats losing a few "digits". However they didn't have one in stock. Would have been nice had they had one in stock I could actually look at.
Now I'm just wondering if that type of guard system would attach easily to my King 10"contractor style saw. The Penn State attaches to an ext. table attached to the saw. So I was wondering if that's how the Excaliber attaches.
I must find out more about the Excaliber system. I'm assuming it comes with a splitter and maybe anti kickback fingers. Forgot to ask the salesman.
Are you familiar with the old style Brett guard system(pictured in Kelly Mehlor's book, The Table Saw?) Some of the reviews I've read about that system say it's tricky to attach. Apparently it attaches to the left hand side of the saw and can be moved out of the way quite easily when not in use.
I'm only asking because I can buy the old style Brett guard system for $219 Canadian on E-Bay.
I definitely have to invest in a good guard system. Shouldn't be operating the saw without one.
Wanda
Yes, the Excalibur attaches to an extension of the table saw, as seen in the picture here. Same as the Penn State, which will also attach to the ceiling. Not sure about the Ex in that respect. Adding an extension table to your saw is a piece of cake, and has other useful attributes.
Here's the Excalibur web site. I doubt that the guard has a splitter included. Click the "Merlin Splitter" to see their splitters. Your King saw should be pretty generic with respect to handling a guard, but the splitter may be a different story, as it has to attach inside the workings, and clear the moving parts when the blade is raised and lowered. I adapted a Merlin to an old Jet saw that it wasn't really designed for. Expensive experiment though, if it doesn't work. If all else fails, you can at least build a splitter pin or wedge into your throat insert. No anti-kickback fingers in that arrangement though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi,
I just checked out the Excaliber website. Don't think I want to pay out that much money for just a plastic guard. Unfortunately, it doesn't come with a splitter or anti kickback fingers.
I came across an interesting webpage during my search.. Biesemeyer splitters for selcected table saws... An anti kickback spreader/splitter designed to reduce dangerous kickbacks. The spreader snaps in instantly and removes easily on saws from several manufacturers. each spreader has a unique mounting bracket designed to easily mount to the saw using the exisiting mounting holes for the saws factory guard/spreader unit. The splitter blae is quickly removed by taking out the table isert, pulling on the spring loaded pin and pulling the blade out.
However, the splitters are not intended to be used with a thin kerf blade. Min saw blade thickness is 1/8"
Apparently it fits the General 350 says it must be used with a zero clearance insert on the General saw.. hmmmm
"If all else fails, you can at least build a splitter pin or wedge into your throat insert." Guess that's better than nothing.
Doesn't Lee Valley sell accessories for throat plates/inserts? I think they have a little kit that comes with a pin/or somekind of splitter that you attach to your throat plate. I must check their website.
One thing is for sure I will not be purchasing the Excaliber. That is way to much to spend on a just a plastic guard that isn't even a "certified guard" according to their website.
I am seriously thinking of purchasing the old style Brett Guard.
All saws should come with riving knives like on the European saws.
Wanda
Hi,
Just checked out the LeeValley website... Table accessories
The kit I was describing is called the MicroJig splitter $18.95 (Canadian funds). Have a look at that and tell me what you think.
Is it as good as a steel splitter?
Wanda
It's about as good, if you only process thin stock and sheet goods (it's got a fixed height), and if you never tilt your saw blade. It's a bit better in one regard: you can use it on non-through cuts, as long as you're cutting to its height or higher.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Wanda, it might be the heat wave that's got me grumpy, but this kind of thinking is setting my teeth on edge: "That is way to much to spend on a just a plastic guard that isn't even a "certified guard" according to their website."
First of all, the $$ isn't just for the plastic guard! It's for an engineered system that makes the guard easy to use and friendly enough that you actually will use it and not dump it in the trash the way you did the stock guard. Never minding the fact that you can buy a different brand (maybe, I know you're in Canada), or make your own, for less money, your fingers and hands are worth it! Now, there are definitely some old timers and others here who will swear they'll never use a guard, and still have 10 fingers. If you want to join their club, fine, but I'm on the other side of the fence from them, now and forever.
Lastly, the "not a certified guard" thing is undoubtedly for the sole purpose of avoiding law suits. The Penn State guard is now called a "dust guard" and expressly denied to be a blade guard in writing, right in the owner's manual -- even though the part # is TSGUARD. Go figure. There can only be on explanation!
I suspect if you want a "certified guard" -- if there is such a thing -- it'll cost you a whale of alot more than $400.
The way you've been writing about this whole issue lends the impression (to me, at least) that you just don't want to believe that a guard is worth it, or affordable enough, or easy enough, to deal with.
There are plans on the internet for both an overhead guard and shop-made splitters. These do not have to be manufactured by a big company and cost hundreds of dollars. If you don't have around $300 (U.S.) to spend for the two items, then do some research. There are plenty of people here to help once you figure out which way you want to go. (Excludes sending flowers in case of amputation. OOooooo, I am feeling mean!).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hello Forestgirl,
OUCH! It's not that I am against using guard systems or splitters.. I value my 10 fingers. I have seen kickback in action and definitely wouldn't want to be in the way of a piece of wood flying through the air at over 100miles an hour.
The Excaliber guard will fit my saw with minor modification. I would also have to purchase the Merlin splitter.
In the meantime the guy at the local tool shop will check to see if the Delta Uniguard can be fitted on my 10" contractor table saw( King Inustrial KC-10 GC) which is a clone of the General International 50-175 table saw). From what I've read it's an excellent guard system and also comes with a quality splitter. Plus it's not quite as expensive as the Excaliber. So if that one fits my table saw that's the one I'm going to purchase. Otherwise I'll have to go with the Excalibur.
I realize I have been operating the table saw without proper protection for far too long. Time for me to wise up.
Wanda
"I realize I have been operating the table saw without proper protection for far too long. Time for me to wise up."Well I'm going stir this whole thing up again. You say you've been using your saw without proper protection for too long, and I'll assume from previous posts, without incident. I think that's probably because you're performing cutting operations correctly, and therefore safely. I really think that if you know the correct technique for all the various cuts you make, and keep your mind focused at all times, you can work safely with only a splitter. As I said in an earlier thread, the only possible problem you can't see before you cut (assuming you're not cutting a reclaimed board that may have a nail or some other object buried in it) is the tension in a board releasing after the cut and causing it to spread or pinch -- a good, well adjusted splitter, solves that. If you do everything right, your hand should never be in position to move into the blade -- ever. The one time in the almost 20 years I've used a table saw that I came close to being hurt was during a moment of extreme inattention. It scared me, but reminded me that anything less than total focus on the task at hand is unacceptable, period.I'm not trying to minimize safety -- I don't want to see anyone loose a finger, but I really think you can be confident and work safely if you do things correctly. I worked in a cabinet for a short time a couple of years ago where there were no guards, no splitters, no nothin' on the saws, and never felt the slightest bit nervous -- air quality/dust collection was another issue -- I was coughing up finished bird houses by the time I got home every night, and never had an incident. If you feel safer with a guard, and don't mind the hassle (see my thread further back in the post), then you should use one. I completely agree with you on the cost of these aftermarket products -- way, way overpriced. If I thought I needed that level of protection to work comfortably, I'd skip all the aftermarket stuff and just get a SawStop saw which is in my opinion, the greatest innovation in table saws in probably forever. Anyway, do what works best for you and stay safe either way.
Hi Mike,
Just wait till Forest Girl sees your post? She'll be on a rampage... Just kidding Forest Girl.
Good technique goes a long way but A splitter is an obsolute necessity....As for the guard.. doesn't hurt to have added protection. You just never know when your hand might slip towards the blade.
Yup, sure would be nice to own one of those "dream machines". (SawStop)
Wanda
Nope, no rampage here. I knew that eventually someone would come along who doesn't and never will use a guard, and the discussion wouldn't be complete without him/her. One of my best WWing cyber-buddies holds the same opinion, and I wouldn't even think of trying to change his mind about it.
I'll draw the rabies comparison, LOL! While rabies, when contracted, is 99.9999999% fatal, no one really knows what the percentage of infection is when bit by a rabid animal. I used to work for a professor who spent hundreds of hours in bat caves doing research, with no protection against rabies. He survived with no ill consequences, but none of his younger minnions would go anywhere near that kind of environment without the protective series of shots that became available later. Why take the chance?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Why take the chance?"Ah, but think about how many more things have to go exactly right (or that can go wrong) for a 747 to safely take off and land than for a piece of oak to get ripped on a table saw. People still fly, and I'll bet some of them probably run with scissors too.And, hey, remember I'm the guy that's giving a blade guard a shot (it's not going to last).
Edited 6/29/2006 12:55 pm ET by Mike_B
Oh, this is going to be fun. Sorry, Mike, but very weak analogy. When a plane is getting ready to take off or land, there's a bazzilion pieces of data flying around letting the pilots and navigator know exactly what's happening, and there's (relatively speaking) plenty of time to realize there is a problem and take action to keep the consequences to a minimum. Even before computers were flying the planes, the pilot him/herself had their own cerebral computer to process data, it was just being collected in a different way (via perception). Unless you're flying a helicopter, you've got at least a little gliding power to buy you precious seconds of air time.
With a table saw, we get only the crudest perceptual data to let us know something is amiss. Those of us who are extra cautious, use good feed and safety habits and only work when our brain is sharp, will be pretty safe most of the time. But things go wrong, and the operator is human. Problem with a table saw is, when things go wrong, they only take a millisecond or so to be completely out of hand, and at that point the operator may indeed be "out of a hand" or at least a digit or two. Or have been hit so hard by a piece of kicked-back wood that they've broken a bone or two or three.
"it's not going to last" Try a different style?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Actually, even a helicopter can glide down. As soon as you lose power, you pitch forward, so as you fall the air blows up through the main rotor. This "wind" will keep the main rotor spinning, sort of like a child's spinner toy or a maple seed falling to the ground.
Then, when you're near the ground, you increase the pitch on the main rotor so, using its inertia, you generate enough lift to land gently.
The main challenge once you're heading down is to keep the rotor speed within a narrow range; too slow and you lose control, too fast and you get blue blades.
The whole process is called auto-rotation. I had to perform it (without warning, instructor forced the engine to idle speed) a number of times before I was allowed to solo.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
"I had to perform it (without warning, instructor forced the engine to idle speed) a number of times before I was allowed to solo." This is a good thing!
We've had 2 Medivac 'copters go down between us and Seattle in the last few years, both into the water, IIRC. Made me very nervous about helicopters!! Last time they lost one, they grounded the whole fleet. Never did hear what the conclusion was, probably should Google it and find out.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Helicopter = collection of loose parts flying in formation, all of said parts being critical to remaining airborne. In the Navy we called the nut that held the rotorhead on the Jesus nut because if it came off.........
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
I've got about 4000 hours flying helicopters, John. As an exchange pilot with the RAN we did zero-airspeed autos in the Sea King from 6000 feet. If you had a good headwind, you could actually move backwards over the ground on the way down and get yerself pretty well set up for the runway or whatever was below you. Passing through about 2000 feet you dumped the nose over, regained your airspeed and finished the rest of it like a regular auto,...they wouldn't let us do that in the USN,.....
As an instructor in several types of helicopters, I initiated many simulated power failures for the poor, unsuspecting students. My favorite was in the middle of a sentence while telling a joke, near the punch line. With a real squirrely helo like the H-1 Huey, you had to be damn sure ready to fly it yourself, so you couldn't get too creative with fooling the student,...
I've got a theory about the tablesaw stuff -
I think the anti-kickback pawls don't prevent kickback so much as remind you not to pull the piece backwards once you start the cut (its interesting how many accidents start with the operator pulling the piece backward - some have even been written about here on knots).
Just like the blade guard doesn't really keep you from running your hand into the blade, it just reminds you where the blade is.
I use all my stuff on my saw - the splitter, blade guard, anti-kickback pawls,...I got no problem with it. I will take it off if I'm cutting the lide off of a box - something like that - but otherwise it stays on there.
Take care, Ed
I was just surprised nobody asked about blue blades. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
"Sorry, Mike, but very weak analogy."I think you misunderstood my reply - sorry if I was unclear. My point is that while the complex process of taking off and landing a plane may seem completely unrelated to the simpler process of operating a table saw, they're the same in that, with proper procedure followed, one has a very reasonable expectation of safety. I'm not talking about "plenty of time to take action to keep consequences to a minimum", I'm talking about using proven technique to prevent putting yourself in harm's way. If you're ripping a piece of oak, don't let your left hand ride the board into the blade. If you're flying for American, don't deviate from the plan -- "Hey Lenny, what say we do the Chicago to Salt Lake run upside down for a change, turn the seat belt light on, will ya?" Safety in the workshop is all about training and proper procedure. If you feel as you say, that you only get the crudest perceptual data while you're performing a cut on the saw, you're doing something wrong. Your saw and the piece you're cutting are talking to you the whole time, and you need to be listening. That's what I've been referring to in previous threads when I mention "focus". If you stay focused, practice the proper technique and don't try to make a tool do something it's not intended to do or incapable of, you have a very reasonable expectation of working safely.I'm not saying don't use a blade guard. If you feel the need, for whatever reason, by all means use one. But if you're going to base that decision on all the things that could POSSIBLY go wrong -- "well doc, what happened was some guy I cut off in traffic on the way home broke in late last night and forced me, at gunpoint, to turn my saw on and sit on it -- sure wish I had a guard on that sucker" -- you're probably in the glass-half-empty, the-sky-is-falling camp, and lose so much sleep worrying that you'll be too tired to fire up your saw.Anyway, we're not going to agree on this one, and we should both move on. Here's hoping you stay safe (and don't develop some weird rash from overexposure the plastic in your blade guard).
Why else but "what could go wrong" would one use any safety device? Weird.
It's not like I worry about every little thing every second I'm in the shop, any more than I worry about every possible mistep another driver (or myself) might make to bring my seat-belt into action. I just buckle the darned thing and drive reasonably carefully (my record ain't too good the last few years, LOL). Using a seat-belt doesn't make me a pansy (I rode a motorcycle for 2 years in college, and not always sober, so stupid maybe, but not a pansy). Neither does using a blade-guard make me a worry-wart. In my book I'm just sensible. ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hello,
Any ideas on how to make a "homemade splitter"? I should have saved the plastic shield from the guard that came with my saw. Could have used that as a splitter I suppose.
Would I have a problem with the Merlin splitter interfering with the outfeed table on my saw? Looks like one very hefty durable splitter. I've been checking out the Delta disappearing splitters and Biesemeyer T-Square, Anti-Kickback,Snap-in Spreaders which I know don't interfere with outfeed tables. However I'm not 100% sure they will fit my 10" contractor saw. If they can fit on a General 10" contractor saw chances are they should fit on mine. Not sure yet but I might consider buying the Merlin Splitter for my saw.
Is it user friendly? It's not too troublesome to take off or on is it? I want a splitter that's a breeze to remove when I need to cut dadoes.
Wanda
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