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The recent article in FWW, by Jeff Jewitt, about wiping fast dry oil varnish led me to try brushing it on a recent project (some wainscoting). I used the Sherwin Williams brand. The can I had was old (maybe as much as 2 years) but it had never been opened.
After the first coat I noticed what appeared to be very fine grains of something in the dried film. Like I had thrown some ashtray sand into the mix. Sanded down, changed brushes, strained the varnish (I used 2 strainers, one nested in the other) and applied the second coat. Same thing.
Has anyone out there had a similar experience? I’m assuming it’s ‘seedy’ varnish, but I don’t know. The strainers I used were the finest available at the store, but maybe they aren’t fine enough? Also, the finish was tinted with Trans-Tint dyes, mixed first with lacquer retarder, added sparingly. I mention this because it’s part of the equation, but I don’t think it has anything to do with the problem.
I was surprised at how easily the fast dry varnish sanded down, almost like a sanding sealer. Has anybody used this product and would care to comment on it’s durability?
Thanks all.
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Eric,
While I have not used the Sherwin Williams product I once experienced what you did in varnishing a boat years ago. This was done mid day and it was quite warm. Any who, what you experienced was the varnish drying and getting build up on the brush in the form of tiny "balls".
My solution was to complete the job in the early morning hours when the temperature was much cooler. I don't use "fast drying" varnishes and stick to marine grade varnishes like Interlux and Epifanes for exterior pieces and Minwax Helmsman for interior pieces. Still schedule my varnishing in the early morning and prefer to apply when the temperature is below 60 and above 40. FWIW.
Dano
*Thanks. I believe you're right - the fast dry stuff sets up extremely fast. I checked with the manufacturer about the sanding, and they said it will sand that way after a day's drying, after four days or so it reaches more of a full cure and will be much tougher. Be nice if that's correct.
*I think I do and do not understand what is happening--I am glad for the explanation of the tiny particles drying however. I have diluted varnish with mineral spirits and brushed it on (with a foam brush) and then wiped off the excess--a variation of the wipe on thinned varnish method. Perhaps the problem Eric is having is working the fast dry varnish too much which I sort of assume must be a thinned varnish. Anyone?
*I wouldn't consider the fast-dry a thinned varnish, at least as it comes from the can. My previous experience brushing varnish has been with Behlen's Rockhard, and the fast-dry seemed about the same viscosity. What I'm learning is I can't handle this stuff in the traditional varnish manner; tipping-off, etc.What gets me about brushing this (and any varnish) is my difficulty getting it onto the wood. I've read everything I can get my hands on about proper technique, importance of a good brush (have tried everything from contractor's grade china bristle to a very pricey badger brush ordered from Constantine's) and my results have been about the same: the finish initially flows off the brush for about the first 8 or so inches of the stroke, then begins streaking, and I have to work the brush around to get the finish to cover the wood. If I reload the brush at that point I seem to end up with way too much varnish either on the work or dripping off the brush. I know I'm doing something wrong, just haven't figured out what yet.What amazes me is referring back to that issue of FWW with the guy using a 2 inch brush to put varnish on the top of a fancy veneered round table that looks to be at least 40" in diameter, and you get the impression that he's making it across the width of the table with one loaded brush stroke. Wow - that must be some brush!Sorry - I go on sometimes.
*Eric, please forgive me if this is unutterably basic, but are you pre-"conditioning" your brush by dampening it in thinner first? If I rush and skip this step, I get a dry brush effect too.Dave
*Hi Dave - yes, I did. How do you do this? Do you let the brush draw up what it will, and go at it, or do you press out some of the thinner? My pre-conditioned brush became quite messy, even with pressing it slightly dry. Just curious.
*Eric,FWIW, I was starting to suspect "technique" as the problem (hence my e-mail to you). But, this is begining to sound as if you have a bad can of varnish. In all of my years in working with varnish, I've never had to "pre-condition" a brush. Not to sound arrogant, but I've refinshed a few Chris-Crafts and Hackers in my time, some of which were show stoppers. Always used a brush. Where are you at in this project (how many coats)? Since you mention that this is an oil based varnish, I would sand it with some 220, and get a can of Minwax Helmans varnish. While my Linzer china bristle sash brushes do very well, my 20 year old Epifanes set are, IMHO, the finest brushes made for varnish (they are still almost like new). I got mine at a chandlery in Charlavoix, Michigan, and see that you can order them through the WoodenBoat Store at: http://www.woodenboat.comDano
*Thanks, Dano. I'll check out the source for the brushes. There's but two coats on right now, and seems like I've sanded most of those off. Minwax Helmsman? I've never used it, but doesn't that have polyurethane in it? (not that there's anything wrong with that, to paraphrase Seinfeld). Does it rub up O.K., in your experience?I like the fast-dry well enough, especially the sanding part (and as the days pass, sanding is becoming increasingly more difficult). But it seems like they could have formulated it with some kind of retarder, like a brushing lacquer, to allow you to work it just a bit. Thanks again.
*Eric,Yes it does, they call it "spar urethane". Even though they say it is for indoor/outdoor use, I wouldn't use it for exterior pieces.Not too sure what you mean by "rub up". But if you are asking if it polishes well, I would say yes. FWIW, a neighbor of mine has gotten real interested in hand planes. Any who, he got his first brand new plane (a #3 Stanley [UK]) last fall and I made him an oak box with his monogram inlayed in the top using cherry for Christmas to put it in. I put 10 coats of Helmsman Clear Gloss on it, used moist cotton balls to polish it after about a week of cure time. Looks like it is sheathed in glass and you could put your hand in it up to your wrist. He likes it.Also, being somewhat old fashioned, I used to look down on polyurethane when it first started to become popular. IMHO, it is superior to varnish for certain aplications such as floors and interior trim. I use Helmsman when I want the piece to have that "varnished look".DanoP.S. Don't know how much wainscoting you are doing, but make sure that the room is dust free. You might want to close off the heat to that room or cover the register with a piece of felt.
*I've had good luck with Helmsman as well. Like Dano, I've found that Linzer brushes work fine. Both the varnish and the brushes are available from Home Depot.
*Well, I must admit I'm intrigued. I ordered one of the Epifane brushes this morning. Don't have any Home Depots around here (can you imagine?) but I've seen the Helmsman elsewhere. And, Dano, I have to ask: can you describe in a bit more detail what you mean by "moist cotton balls to polish"? That one's new to me.Excellent tip on the felt over the register. Honeywell air cleaners, duct cleaning, doesn't matter. My house is dust heaven. Thanks much.
*Eric,Good for you on the Epifanes brush, you will be astounded by how well it works. As for the cotton balls, just dip a couple in some water an squeeze the excess out by gently pinching them between the thumb and index finger, and commence to polishing changing the cotton frequently. As this is a trade secret of mine, don't tell anyone about it.;) I learned about this in the Army to "spit" shine my shoes and boots. I use this technique to apply wax finishes as well. Let us know how the project turns out.Dano
*Dano, we all love it when you sound arrogant, don't apologize. ;-)In case it becomes required, I do that by allowing the brush to become wetted by the thinner, and then pressing it out reasonably well. It doesn't drip or anything.Dano, I was Air Force, so boot shining wasn't a big priority...I don't want to say anything in public for fear of giving out your secrets, but I don't reckon anyone is looking. Are you polishing out with a wet cotton ball and nothing else? No compound or magic decomposed rottenstone, or nuthin?Dave
*Dave,Correcto mundo. With my brushes and "technique" that's all it takes, most of the time I don't even need to do that.(There is that better, no apology?) ;)As for using wet cotton balls for wax (know you zoomies didn't know what boot polish was; let alone that it is mostly wax) I apply the wax with a clean cotton rag and polish with wet cotton balls.Like your tip about wetting the brush in thinner, I can see how that would help in a hot and arid climate.Dano
*Thanks for the tip, Dano. I shall surely try that out.I can't take credit for the prewetting idea, got that from Jeff Jewitt. I do take credit for trying it out, though. ;-)Dave(what are boots? ;-))
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