I’m contemplating an HVLP system for my home shop. This will see only occasional hobby use, so I don’t want to spend more than I have to. On the other hand, it must be capable of producing a decent finish. I’ve come across several references recently to a home-built turbines using Ametek Lamb vacuum motors. I can source one of these from my local vacumm shop easily enough, but I have no idea what gun I should choose.
I would like a reasonably idiot-proof gravity-feed gun that can handle shellac and lacquer for pieces of furniture and cabinet doors. I’d also like to be able to spray interior trim and irritating things like louvre doors around the house. The ability to spray the occasional automotive panel would be useful. Is this asking too much from a piece of budget equipment that might be used only half a dozen times a year?
Your thoughts and recommendations for specific pieces of equipment will be much appreciated. Thanks,
Martyn
Replies
Do you have an air compressor? If so, there are quite a few guns that would work. Some even work for smaller projects off a fairly small compressor.
I do have a compressor, but it's only 1.5 hp with an 8 gallon tank - it's a "wheelbarrow" unit for running a couple of nail guns and produces about 5 cfm at 50 psi. This doesn't sound like enough to supply a spray gun...
Martyn, Jeff Jewett has a couple of gravity guns that will run on not-much-air. Take a look at his website and browse around. I've got a Devilbiss FL3 gun (rated at 13 CFM) which I really like but it keeps my compressor running constantly. Here's a gun that I am considering and I don't think you can beat for the price - low air consumption.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/usedguns.htm
Asturo BBS HVLP - your compressor capacity doesn't need to be quite as great as your gun unless you are spraying continuously.
Edited 9/3/2005 2:08 am ET by polarsea1
OK, time for a re-think...it looks like an Accuspray 19c or an Asturo ECO/I might work with a small conventional compressor like mine. These guns are more expensive than I was hoping for, but then the extran cost would be off-set by not having to buy or build a turbine.
Does anyone have experience of using either of these guns (or alternatives) with small compressors? Come to think of it, the siding on my house will need re-staining soon...
The Accuspray 19c is a great gun. Very different from conventional "conversion" guns, though. It doesn't seem to atomize quite as well. But, it uses very little air. I've got a pressure cupgun version of the 19c at work and the more I use it the more I appreciate it.
Accuspray makes a pressure gravity gun which I've been dying to try out. Some German company also has one out and I believe some of the better known name brands might be producing their own versions. But, I think Accuspray pioneered the concept.
My helper at work took one of his cheap gravity guns and jury-rigged the gravity cup to be pressurized. He used a picture of the Accuspray model as a rough template. It's... interesting. Not exactly flawless in operation. But, it's fun to play with. The potential of a pressurized gravity feed gun is very intriguing.
Marlyn, I just bought one of the Wagner Fine Coat HVLP units from Gleem Paint (like last week!) -- got the one that was on sale "refurbished." This particular model was reviewed in one of the mags awhile back and got my attention. Gleem Paints came by way of strong recommendation from a Knots member who's ordered several things from them.
I've used it so far to spray shellac and black lacquer and have been happy with it. Disclaimer though: I wasn't spraying big flat surfaces so it's not a test for furniture finishing!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
My sincere thanks for all your good advice. I suspect that I'm looking for more than I can reasonably expect from a budget outfit.
The spec on the Harbor Freight model 43430 seems definitely out of whack - it weighs two pounds, has a 20 oz cup, runs at 15 - 50 PSI and 9.5 to 14.8 cfm, and yet consumes only 1 - 3 cubic inches of paint per minute (a cubic inch is close to 16 cc, i.e. about a tablespoon). These numbers don't seem to match, which is also supported by Jack's experience. Since I live in western Canada, the C$ equivalent is typically about twice the US$ price by the time we've included shipping, duties, taxes, brokerage fees, and the exchange rate. US$50 is rather more than I'm willing to risk given that my compressor is rate at around 5 cfm at 50 psi. If the gun went on sale at $20 as Jack suggests it sometime does, I'd buy one in a flash. Maybe I'll give them a call anyway.
I'm also somewhat skeptical about the small Wagners - it's hard to believe that they could lay down a quality finish on something like a table-top (where the cost of the wood is probably more than the gun). I wasted a lot of time as a kid trying to spray the occasional car with an underpowered compressor and conventional gun - and I have a lot less patience these days!
There certainly aren't many guns around that are HVLP and will run off a small compressor. Conversion guns with pressure cups seem better suited to small compressors and a wider variety of viscosities, but are a pain to clean which is going to deter me from using one for small jobs.
The Asturo BBS looks very attractive at $189 from Homestead Finishing, but again my compressor is probably inadequate and that US$189 is going to turn into C$350 very quickly. Still, it's worth a telephone call.
A few of my local suppliers have an interesting boxed set of three guns (Goldilocks style) for something like C$250, but they're made in China. My experience of Chinese-made products is that the quality is pitiful unless the goods are branded, and of course there will be no spares available.
I don't really want to have to buy a larger compressor for the limited use it will get, so I think my course of action will be to make the telephone calls and then choose a gun that has a reasonable chance of working out, but where I could mitigate the risk by running it on a comparatively inexpensive vacuum motor turbine if my compressor proves inadequate. Again, thanks for all your help and feel free to throw any further inspirations my way,
Martyn
Don't sell your current compressor short too soon. Those CFM requirements are for continuous use. If you are painting an entire 4000 square foot house at one time the CFM requirement has meaning. If you are spraying a table top, you need about a minutes worth of air. I can't think of any compressor that can't handle that.
Everybody tell me me my absolute bottom of the line Porter Cable pancake compressor can't handle a framing nail gun. Well, mine does! I can't think of the last time I shot more than five nails, bam, bam, bam. Then it is put the gun down, go cut some wood, fit it up, plumb it, and bam bam again. Working alone as a DIY'er my compressor runs about 30% of the time and show no sign of overheating.
I think you might find the same thing if you are spraying furniture sized objects by the ones or twos.
Chris
I own four "conversion" HVLP gravity guns and use them regularly. If you're dead set on going with a turbine HVLP set-up then disregard this post because I have zero experience with the turbine type.
Two of my gravity guns are... um... economical models. I bought them as a boxed pair. I think I paid $70 for the pair. My other two gravity guns are higher quality, more expensive guns. One I bought in a pawn shop for $72 (I still have the receipt!) while it was retailing new for around $450 several years ago. The other, my most recent acquisition, I paid $230 for as part of an over-stock liquidation from a salesman/painter buddy of mine. It normally retails for about $100 more than that. All four are used for both clear furniture finishes and for automotive primers, paints and clears, along with the occasional latex or enamel.
I've yet to find a more versatile spray gun than an gravity gun.
There's simply no comparison between the cheap guns and the quality ones. You definitely get what you pay for and it's across the board. From ease of use (weight being a big factor) to how well they atomize.
I have relegated my two cheap gravity guns to strictly primer/sealer use. If I want a nice consistent finish then I use one of the more expensive "brand name" guns.
My $.02 on the subject...
Edited 9/2/2005 2:23 pm ET by Kevin
Aloha,
Check out this site http://www.gleempaint.com/wagfinhvrec.html for a very inexpensive HVLP turbine sprayer. I purchased one of these about 6 months ago and have been very satisfied with it. Wagner does have a newer model of this unit for a bit more $, http://gleempaint.com/fine-spray-hvlp-2400.html. Like you, I don't have a production shop and only use it for my somewhat small projects. Before this I had a neighbor who loaned me a professional quality Graco HVLP that I used for about two years, I find that I get less overspray with this unit.
Edited 9/2/2005 4:19 pm ET by Dan
At the risk of incurring scorn from the elitists, I use a $69 gun (on sale frequently for $20 or so less) from Harbor Freight with great results. I don't finish every day. I generally build 4 or 5 pieces a year of reasonably nice furniture - oak, cherry, etc., on a par with Ethan Allen type stuff. I spray a sanding sealer and 3 coats of poly, sanding between coats, and get a very nice finish with the gun. An acquaintance builds custom cars ($50k & up) and recommended it. He said it works better than his $500+ equipment. I was somewhat skepical but decided to try it. Glad I did.
Which model is it, Jack, and what size compressor do you have?
I don't know the model # off the top of my head but I'll check tomorrow and let you know. I think they only have one gravity flow HVLP, though.The compressor is a Craftsman, jokingly rated at 5HP but closer to 3 based on the amp rating - 15A @ 230V. In fact, I called GE, the motor manufacturer, and they told me it is actually a 3 HP but the phony rating system the industry uses for compressors lets them call it a 5. The gun uses very little air - I run it at about 5 PSI, so a smaller compressor should be fine.
The box says it is item #43430. It also says 15 - 50 PSI and airflow is 9.5 to 14.8 cfm. Don't believe either of those ranges. My friend runs his at 5 psi and so do I. I tried it at 20 once and it atomized the finish so badly I had to sand it off and reshoot it. As far as cfm goes, my compressor won't support an air tool rated at 4.5 cfm, and it runs infrequently with the gun. BTW, I had very little experience spraying before I got the gun and I got great finishes the first time I used it. Took a little while to get the hang of adjusting for an adequate material flow but it wasn't a problem.
Just a quick note on cheap gravity guns.
The vast majority of them, regardless of brand name, are virtually identical copies of an older SATA (expensive German brand) model. A quick look thru EBAY yielded a variety of examples:
http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/5e/ea/7c_1_b.JPG
http://images.prosperpoint.com/images/771/39574-9836.jpg
http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/40000106/Images/TAIA0514.jpg
http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/60000133/Images/zh1208-2h.jpg
http://www.gforcetools.com/imagesinv/i565.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/nk/nko30/hlvp6.jpg
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43430
Note that each of them has the sideport fan control and the same distinctive shape to the handle.
Now here's a pic of a real SATA: http://images.andale.com/f2/118/116/11675253/1053729912617_1053729912598_i_1.JPG
I've owned two different "brands" of cheap gravity guns like those above. My helper at work owns another (Ingersol-Rand). We've found that the parts are 100% interchangable. That obviously means that they were probably made at the same factory in Tiawan and simply packaged differently for different clients.
SATA is widely regarded as the best of the best when it comes to gravity guns. Whomever is making the cheap copies couldn't have picked a better gun to copy. And they spray decently too. The fit and finish is problematic in that they seem to be manufactored to relatively loose tolerances. That means that some of them perform flawlessly and others not so great. The other thing that I don't like about them is that they are heavier than the more expensive brands.
Having owned and used both the cheap copies and a couple different of the expensive brands (one is a SATA) I much prefer the more expensive ones because I like how they perform. But, the cheap ones do a competent job of spraying. And I'd take a cheap Tiawanese copy of a SATA gravity gun over any cupgun regardless of brand or cost. I personally loath cupguns. They are a monumental pain in the backside, in my opinion. Give me a cheap gravity gun over one of those any day of the week!
Just wanted to put my views on the different gravity gun offerings into context... I'm not an elitist. If I was then I'd throw away my two cheap gravity guns and just keep the two expensive ones. I'm driven by performance and my experience is that the more expensive ones perform better. Since I make my living using gravity guns 90% of the time that I spray something, performance matters a great deal to me.
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