Hello everyone, I’ve been woodworking for a day or two now (20+ years) and in all this time i’ve always tried to do the very best I can with what I have. I’ve always tried to make it a practice to upgrade to a better tool depending on the all mighty dollar or at the very least build a jigg to make many tasks a bit easier. My question to all of you is this, Do any of you ever have the same problem as above or do you have unlimited resources and have everything you need when you need it????? I hope some of you will respond to let me know either how you deal with not much cash or on the other hand take a minute to brag a bit to tell us how it is with unlimited funds and have all you need.
Thanks
Replies
When buying tools, pick out the best one you can afford; then go one grade better. That advice came from my dad many years ago. I have at times forgotten it much to my regret.
I've learned the hard way all too often... if ya buy cheap ye'll pay dear... There are a few exceptions mind... but by and large it pays to invest in quality tools...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Clark,
I am in your boat. The nice thing about woodworking is that no matter what you do, you are right. Everyone makes dovetails differently. Same with finishing, with sharpening, with mortise and tenon, etc etc etc.
Some yuppie woodworkers have to have Holtey planes (minimum $8000 apiece). Some have to have Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley planes. I have four middle aged Stanleys that are good enough for my purposes. To be sure, I am not building Chippendale reproductions with hand tools.
I have worked at NASA since 1979. An oft heard statement is "The better is the enemy of the "good enough."" What is "Good enough" when it comes to a plane?. Is it a used Stanley ($30), a used Stanley that has been finely tuned ($30), a finely tuned Lie Nielsen $150), a Marcou ($2000), or a Holtey ($8000)? Where does one stop? Will someone develop a $16,000 plane? Will it make you a better woodworker than a mere $8000 plane?
When I started making furniture, I built a bench out of scraps, and put the bench on the porch of my Bingampton, NY apartment. I bought a Sears circular saw, jig saw, and a belt sander. I got some handtools at garage sales. I made some VERY NICE FURNITURE. I learned how to do joinery with dowels. I did that for 30 years. So far, no joints have failed. (Now I do M&T)
Now, I have a Delta contractor saw, a used Craftsman jointer and drill press, a $350 bandsaw, a $300 Delta thickness planer, and a mess of hand tools which are mostly used. I sharpen with sandpaper. If I could sell all of my tools for the price I paid for them, I could not afford to buy two Marcou planes ( total about $4000). Philip makes GREAT planes, but what could I do with two planes and nothing else?
I am an avid hobbyist woodworker. My skills are not up there with those of the best on this forum. BUT, if someone in the top echelon, say Ray Pine, came into my shop, he could turn out the highest quality furniture with the tools that I have. Could he do better if I had a Unisaw? That is an interesting question. I think not. I'll bet if you saw two pieces of furniture, one having had its cuts made on a Unisaw, and the other on my Contractor's saw, no-one could tell the difference. It is true that with a 5 HP Unisaw, you can cut thicker wood. But you get my drift.
I have heard great music played on cheap guitars, but the guitarists were excellent. A mediocre guitarist cannot make himself much better with a $10,000 guitar. At the highest levels of skill, the better guitar would make a difference.
Stand tall. Be proud, not of your tools, but of your output. Any rich rich person can buy one of each of the tools that Lie Nielsen sells.
People can advise you to buy the best tools possible. If that works for them, then its fine for them.
I saw a guy turn out nice moulding last month. He was using a Stanley #55 plane. It would have been a lot easier with a shaper and a set of moulding blades for the shaper (and a lot more expensive). You should have seen the smile on this guy's face when he passed the moulding around for all to see. He got one heck of a round of applause. By the way, he bought the plane in poor shape, and put it in great shape. Smart guy. Great woodworker. Phenomenal attitude.
Have you ever seen photos of Tage Frid making dovetails? Was he using an Adria saw or a LN or other costly specialized dovetail saw? No. He was using a big honker of a handmade bowsaw. Have you ever seen the video of Klaus cutting dovetails? and on and on and on.
I believe that a good woodworker can make GREAT furniture with minimal tools. It is much easier with Norm Abrams shop and all the tools, and an assistant to set up each cut for you.
I believe that you can learn more about woodworking by buying used tools and learning how to tune them up. Later, if you get the means to buy a better tool, you will understand what makes it a better tool. If you never get the extra funds, you can still make great furniture with your well-tuned used tools.
I am passionate about doing good woodwork. I would love to own a great set of tools in a big workshop, with an assistant to sweep up. Who wouldn't?
BUT I would rather have Derek Cohen's and Philip Marcou's knowledge about planes and handtools together but own a poor set of handtools, than have poor knowledge but a great set of handtools.
Go for the knowledge and skill, not the $6000 saw. When you hit the jackpot in the lottery, you can hire Norm as your assistant.
If someone brags about their great tools, look at them, study them and learn, and tell the person that those are great tools. When it comes your turn to talk, brag about the great furniture you produced. Point out the fine features on your furniture. If he asks you about your tools, then point with pride to the tools that you used to help you make your masterpieces. If they ask more questions about your tools, point out how well tuned they are, and how sharp the blades are, and how efficient your jigs are.
The NRA says, "Guns don't kill, People kill."
In woodworking, I say, "Tools don't build fine furniture, people do."
I apologize about getting on the soapbox. Go build some masterpieces. Do the best you can do with what you have. Put photos of your work on Knots Gallery. People will applaud your work. Look at other photos on Knots Gallery. Can you tell what tools were used to make them? Probably not.
Most important of all, Have fun.
Mel
PS not long ago, there was a great thread on Knots about which set of chisels is best. The conclusion turned out to be: all the good ones are about the same, although they differ wildly in price.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I like your philosophy, though we come from different poles. I have always felt the obligation to prepare for my family and while I've always been intensely interested in woodworking that isn't what was my livelihood. Always too tired after work - actually sometimes after a twenty hour day. My family grew up and moved away without me knowing it. Now at age 73, I'm finally getting out of business and I just want to woodwork for fun. I can't count how many years I've planned to build a woodshop. I am finally getting one that I would like to report on someday. I thought I could build it for less that fifty thousand. I have over two hundred in it and am not finished yet. Oh, blush. But it will be nice.
Back to the tools. My first big tool was a Craftsman RA saw that I bought in 1962 and have pretty much worn out. Started collecting more tools about thirty six years ago - drill press, jointer, several successive table saws that didn't amount to much, even a toolcraft shaper that turned at over 20.000 rpm. I think that was before a large bit was used on a shaper. About ten years ago I started buying about $2,000 worth of tools per year in anticipation of pending more time with them. I got a PM66. A bigger drill press - I'm not sure it is better, an Omnijig with the attachments, Tormek with attachments, PM mortiser, Bridgewood spindle sander, Delta disk sander, etc., etc. This year, I picked up a PM PJ882 Jointer. Oh what a difference from the craftsman which I could never make work satisfactorily. One corner of the out table was about one eight inch low, and a MM16 band saw. To this day a lot of the tools are unused after sitting around some years. I have learned that some should never have been purchased or substituted with another model.
I am hoping to get fully retired this month. We have put the last property in a Trust deeded to our Alma Mater and are managing it until it is sold. Can't wait. Because, at 73, I don't have so much time left to build up the tools and learn to use them, I was hoping to short circuit the process by getting a little better tool, hoping the better quality would partially make up for lack of experience. Haven't noticed anyone say that would work. I have a lot of hand tools except the good planes. My hearing is shot, and now I notice that sight is giving away to cataracts. Woe is me. I have given up on the hearing but hopefully the cataracts can be compensated for. Last week my wife talked me into going to a first aid station for treatment for hives. I mentioned to the doctor that it started with a little chest pain when he said, "You have to get to the hospital and I recommend an ambulance". The doctor at the hospital emergency says, "It is important that you carry this bottle of pills with you at all times for hives. Never separate yourself from it". I didn't know that hives were dangerous. Anyway, I have made pease with my Lord and the thought of dying doesn't bother me much. Oh sorry, how did I get in all that tangent?
Hey tinkerer2,
That is a good tangent to get on. We all need to know where we stand, because at any given moment, we may not be standing anymore.
Alan - planesaw
Tinkerer2,
Thank you for writing to me. I enjoyed reading your story. I wish you good luck, good fortune and a long stint at woodworking. You deserve it. Enjoy the tools. Enjoy the process. I hope you have a long life with lots of woodworking and no more hives.
Have fun. Send another message after a while, and let me know how your workshop is coming along, and what you are working on.Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I agree ompletely . its the man behind the tool and his skills that produce fine work
This thread is a great pep talk for those among us who want to be woodworkers, as opposed to tool collectors.
Farkel,
Amazing. I just posted a LONG message that says the same thingas you did in one sentence. I wish I had said it as simply as you did. You are a person of great wisdom.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
If someone brags about their great tools, look at them, study them and learn, and tell the person that those are great tools. When it comes your turn to talk, brag about the great furniture you produced. Point out the fine features on your furniture. If he asks you about your tools, then point with pride to the tools that you used to help you make your masterpieces. If they ask more questions about your tools, point out how well tuned they are, and how sharp the blades are, and how efficient your jigs are.
From this passage in your post it’s real easy to come to the conclusion that you believe those of us who’ve invested in quality tools have done so just to collect them, or worse… to outfit a high end shop that never sees shavings or dust from one month to the next. I can assure you that amongst the posters here, the opposite is almost uniformly the case.
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My own story is fairly typical of how we’ve chosen the tools we have… I started making the switch to handraulics through necessity… Despite buying the best wood-munchers I could afford (and that my very limited shop could accommodate), they just weren’t cutting it where it mattered… tear out in fine figured boards, or simply the excessive hassle of trying to find nearly 20 ft of working space in a 7x11 shop just to machine some 9ft stock. I got tired and frustrated with having to spend most of my available shop time on tool set up rather than getting on with the job… So I ventured tentatively into hand planes..
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I started out by doing some unobtrusive homework here… mouth shut….eyes open, see what tools the guys who DO know what they’re talking about are using…. Lie-Nielsen’s name crept up again and again (as I recall, L-V had only just released their first few bevel downs at the time). Out of curiosity I had a looksee at Lie Nielsen’s web pages; having to suffer drool at one end while the other end’s clenching at the price doesn’t exactly build confidence in the move you’re contemplating… Surely there’s a way to get it done without spending quite so much?
Choices came down to either Record or Stanley (settled by what was in store at the time), new or 2nd hand… that one was tougher to answer… used tools certainly were cheaper, but how to spot a lemon when I’ve no idea what a god one should look like? I played safe, bought new (#5, #7 and LA block) and gave them a try. To say I was disappointed was an understatement… Still, if these were the tools my forefathers used, I’d best learn how to use em, right?? More studying posts here (still hadn’t worked up the bottle to post anything yet), leading to buying David Charlesworths books… Tuning and sharpening happened, but still, the results left a hollow “ever feel ya been shafted?” feeling inside.
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No matter how I fettled the planes, the only way I could get them to cut at all was to open the throat until the blade was butted against the rear of the mouth; anything other than that led to instant chatter. If I dared let them at some figured wood, they’d cut through the softer grain fairly easily, stopping dead in their tracks whenever they passed over the figured areas (I was working scots elm at the time).
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Straight outa the box, these things had been a QA disaster; (I’ve always been of the opinion that customers shouldn’t need to do fettling to fix defects in the manufacturing process… every tool should be fit for purpose when sold). With both the #5 and #7 causing tearout whenever the grain showed any character, and the block plane literally falling to bits in my hand whenever I tried to use it, I’d had enough. Over £200 outa pocket for what turned out to be glorified door stops, I bit the bullet and ordered my first Lie-Nielsen.
Was it worth it?? Hell yeaaaaa.. Progress happened, learning happened, completed projects happened without hours of fuming at my poor choices or wondering "is it me or the tool that’s doing something wrong". Now that my range has expanded enough to work a board fully from rough-sawn to ready-for-finish, I’ve learned to put absolute faith in the capabilities of these planes, leaving me free to focus on what’s important…
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Thesedays I’m still a country mile from finding the edges of the capability these tools have, much less finding their limits but that’s part of the reason I ended up choosing and sticking with this particular tool maker; I’ll never need worry if it’s the tool or me that’s doing something wrong…
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I doubt any of the end recipients of my projects could tell one plane from another, much less who made them, and that’s fine with me… Their reaction upon receipt of the project tells me I made the right choice.
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I want to thank you very much for telling us your feelings. I have often thought that if a person makes a replica of the Golden Gate Bridge with a million tooth picks, thats fine by me. How ever, thats not my cup of tea. My replica of the Golden Gate Bridge has pieces of wood that looks like small riveted beams. I don't mine is better. It's just what I want, and thats the way I want to spend my time. I know that expensive tools do not make me a better craftsman, of course, being rather stubborn might.
Richard the Fourth
Jim,
I have to agree with just about everything Mel wrote, certainly with his main point that knowledge and attitude are what make the woodworker, not his tools.
I have been a professional for a long time, and the problem you describe still exists for me, just on a different scale. We were seriously debating this week whether we need a new $20,000 edgebander, and how it would turn out a better product than we now can make. (No decision yet)
I have a life-long disdain for poor quality tools. So I've always preferred not to have something at all if I can't afford it, and in the meantime find a way around the challenge. It doesn't mean you always need the most expensive! Let common sense prevail. Tools that you constantly reach for, like a block plane or your measuring tape, should be excellent quality. A poor vise is so irritating it will drive you out of the shop. On the other hand, the router bit that gets used once a year can be mediocre. And you can probably live without the Festool 6" orbital sander (I can't...I have 2 of 'em).
Reflecting on it now, I believe I have never bought a tool thinking that I will upgrade later. Sometimes I did upgrade later, but when buying I always went for what seemed the best for the job.
DR
When I was a young man, fresh into the business world, I was working for a man who mentored me in all aspects of business. He took me under his wing, if you will, and made me his personal mission. He gave me opportunities at a young age that to this day still don't make sense, but I'm very, very grateful. Among the many things that he tought me, the one thing that he spoke of almost daily was the necessity to challenge yourself on a daily basis in every phase of your life. He stated that it was the only way to grow as a person, and as a business. When I bought my first house, he convinced me to spend about $50,000 more than I thought I could afford. (Alot of money back then.) With business, he stated to always take risks, as long as they were intelligent ones with a strong upside. When it came to purchases, such as tools, for the sake of this argument, he stated to buy the very best you can afford, and add a little, too.
His theory was simply that what seems expensive today, won't be next year, and all the money wasted on depreciation of a poor investment, especially 2 or 3 upgrades down the road, far exceeds the momentary financial struggle to pay for the best RIGHT NOW!
I hope this makes sense. It is how I've lived my life for the past 20 years, and I haven't looked back once.
If I had only a few bucks to spend on tools, I'd rather have a block plane and smoother from Lie Nielsen than the entire fleet of the cheap stuff. I thank Jack for not being in that situation today.
Jeff
BTW, I made about$250,000 profit on the sale of that first house in less than 7 years. I went to his gravesite the day I closed to thank him. Smart man, and I miss him.
When I first started getting WWing tools, we were going through an extremely rough financial time (lasted several years). Networking proved to be the answer to getting a table saw. I spread the word at a WWing show that I was looking for a used contractors saw, and ended up getting one for free. Naturally, it wasn't free for no reason - the motor was pretty well dead, but I was able to get a new one from Jet, via a dealer, for $175, so that was pretty darned good. Cast iron wings bought from a repair tech for $60!
The only other "really cheap" tool I bought was the bandsaw, Grizzly 1019Z on sale for...??? $325, $275? something like that. While it's fussy sometimes, it's got plenty of power and resaws great, so the savings were worth the periodic aggravation.
From there on out, it's "Watch the ads" picking up well-cared-for tools from a woodworking moving out of the country, price matching between the Big Boxes, that kind of stuff. And once or twice getting incredibly lucky at estate auctions. Split the cost of a jointer with a friend....
Problem with this approach, of course, is that it can take years to accumulate most of the stuff you need, but right now if I sold it all, I'd come close to breaking even. From here on out, no tool gets replaced with anything but the "final choice" -- the most I'd be willing to pay. Hence the wait for a Steel City bandsaw and a Saw Stop cabinet saw. ;>)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 11/24/2006 12:05 pm by forestgirl
I,m in the same boat you are, can't afford the best of everything, so you have to pick the one to spend money on. I found that if I buy the best of my primary tools, say a table saw, then my secondary can be maybe not exactly what I would like. Such as, I use a table saw all the time, but I have a small shop, so instead of a nice cabinet saw, I bought a contractors model, but a good quality one. A band saw on the other hand, I use but not as much as the table saw, so a bought a smaller, and not cutting-edge saw. A router I use all the time and so I bought a good one of those.I find that a good table saw, router, jointer, and planer do most of my work, and the rest don't have to be top of the line to be adaquate. When I have to replace a tool, I try to buy one better than the last one, and gradually upgrade my shop that way. The biggest mistake I made was not getting a jointer right off. Now that I have one, I sure use it.
I am fortunately to have a dedicated shop and can afford any tool I want, at least I could until I retired several months ago. Despite the ability to buy what I wanted, I tended to but the best for a particular task. For example, my Grizzly TS will do everything I need as a serious hobbyist but when it comes to handplanes I went with L-N and Veritas. For DC I choose Oneida because my health is more important to me than wood working. I also bought some used production pieces along the way. I still use my 30-year old Craftsman RAS. Life should be about balance and commonsense.
What I have learned along the away is that all of the tools enable to make my mistakes faster. The quality or quantity of the tools is no substitute for patience, planing, trials and testing, repetition and inspiration.
Happy holidays
well, i will keep this short, as there are many great posts on this one....get the best u can afford, although many times the most expensive is not the best..many tool reviews show that clearly. I will say this..i have never regretted the extravagances in my purchasing, only many so called bargains....besides , simple solutions are the best..after you have the basics, those tools and your ingenuity will take you far! most of us here are in the same boat as you, in one way or another, with the exceptions of some trust fund babies..haha...keep 'em sharp, that's the best investment you can make...CHEERS!
JimC
I am hobbyist not pro. I have a mix of inexpensive tools, expensive tools, and old high quality tools, bought cheap. It comes down to trading time for money - I can buy an old plane and spend a lot of time tuning it up and getting to know it ( which would be my preferece) or I can buy a brand new higher dollar plane that will only take a few minutes before I start working with it. How much is your time worth?
My best bargains have been at estate sales, which made me realize that buying tools for their heirloom qualities, wasn't a good idea in itself.
Hi Jim C ,
In the last 25 or 30 years while in the furniture and cabinet business I have slowly picked up one machine at a time , all used . The time to buy a bargain is when you find one ! Only thing is usually I've been broke when the hot deal shows up .
I run a one person shop . I'm it . I have never been known for being the biggest or the most well equipped shop in town . Over the years I have paid my dues and been enrolled in the Pacific North West school of hard knocks . I gained the base of my woodworking knowledge from my apprenticeship , and have continued to gain knowledge each day . FWW mag and other makers and books and places just like this forum .
It really has little to do with what you have , what you know is much more important and will reflect in our works .
regards dusty
Jim,
I believe Mel has summed up the answer and everything evryone else has said. Skills and techniques will take you further than your tools alone will.
When I was about 11 years old I would go to my dad's hardware store right after school, do my homework, and then go upstairs to the custom framing shop to make the picture frames that had been ordered that day. Dad would cut the mats (I am almost 60 now and still don't try to do that), I would make the frame, cut the glass and assemble all the pieces. I used a Stanley #100 picture frame miter saw.
About 10 years ago my wife started framing Americana and Country prints and traveling the big (50,000 people or more per show) craft show circuit. We started making the frames, cutting the glass, matting the prints, putting them together etc.
To make those frames we bought an industrial mitre saw and a V-nailer to join the moulding into picture frames.
On the old Stanley 100, which I still have and use on occasion, it would take about an hour to cut, glue and nail the four sides of the frame together and hide the nail with special filler (leaving some time for the glue to set).
On the big industrial mitre I can make a frame start to finish in 2 minutes or less. But, when you are making about 10,000 frames a year, that saw makes a difference.
Probably nothing here in my diatribe you don't already know. Yes, we all have budgets. Some bigger than others. Some home, some business.
I now buy either LN or LV planes, and I now know I only need a few. But I learned on a bunch of old Stanleys. I learned to completely refurbish an old Stanley and sharpen it so that you could shave with it.
Mel referred to a thread on which are the better chisels. I started one asking what is the best brand for carving chisels. I already have my opinion on flat or bench or paring chisels. Easily there are two or three "best" brands of carving chisels. Depends on your philosophy of tool steel and how the handle feels as to which you choose.
I have a set of LN bench chisels. But I also have collected a set of old Stanley 750s from garage sales, ebay, etc. And, I have an old plastic handle set of Stanleys. With what I know now, I could make a fine piece of furniture whith those old cheap Stanleys. Might have honed them a little more frequently, but they would do the job just fine.
Set your priorities. Hand or power tools. (By the way, the better you are with hand tools, the better you will be with power tools --- and you won't need the power tools as often. In fact, some times they are slower.)
Then decide on your tool list. Look for used. A used high end tool will serve you better than a cheap, poor-performing new tool. In the end, your skills might make the biggest difference.
Alan - planesaw
Edited 11/24/2006 6:29 pm ET by Planesaw
JeffHeath's tale notwithstanding, not everyone profits $250K in 7 years on his house. No matter how smart you think you are or your mentor is, there is a significant amount of luck involved in getting a return like that on any investment. That said, don't buy tools as investments; buy them to do your work or to have your pleasure, as the case may be. If you suspect that you can afford only junk this week, wait a short while, save your dough as you wait, & keep an eye out for a price reduction or sale day for the better stuff. Making the tools you have do extra duty & making your own jigs is a very smart move also.
Oddly, I seem to have more money available for tools since retirement. (I have difficulty with the price of wood!) I think that I NEVER bought the most expensive tool that I could afford. Yet I am quite satisfied that I can make anything I wish with the tools that I have. Actually, I recognized my own limitations first, then I made certain that I did not greatly exceed them with my choice of tools. I get to have MORE tools that way & they aren't so big that I can't move them around. Replacement with a more expensive unit has been done occasionally but not just for the thrill of it.
So, I have shared your fortune most of my WWing life. Be proud if you can say that your work is of good quality. LOL!!
Cadiddlehopper
Cadiddlehopper,
Every time I read one of your messages, I see more of myself. We have very similar values.Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I noticed that, too. We aren't so unique (or is that odd?) after all.Cadiddlehopper
Alls I can say is wow and a very heart felt thank you to all of you that's responded. Like I said earlier I started woodworking more out of necessity than for a hobby. It seems like every time someone would ask if I could build something my panted answer was "I guess only time will tell". after countless projects people seem to take notice that my woodworking seemed to keep getting better . (at least the comments were getting better) Like a lot of you I truly enjoy creating projects with my hands,mind and body. I keep telling myself that if I can build what I do now with what I have then just maybe some day if I ever do get good equipment I should be truly awesome LoL or just maybe I'll be so used to old worn out tools I won't be able to build a darn thing.... Again thank you all and even though I don't post that much I'll still keep checking out all of you and picking up your good tips .
Sincerely,Jim at Clark Customs
I have read through all these comments, and you've been given the benefit of some very insightful, valid, and sometime heartfelt advice.
For my part, I would urge you to remember that many, if not most of the participants at Knots are, shall we say, well above the poverty line.
Over time, as you read through these various threads, you will detect a kind of snobism about tools and machines. There is a subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) pressure to buy tools that might stretch your meager budget.
Through my life, I have known any number of people who did astonishingly good work with the crappiest selection of tools, quantitatively as well as qualitatively. But they all had a mind set that gave them the patience and persistence to work with what they had.
I once knew a guy for instance, that was married with two children, was the sole support of his family, and thus never had much of a budget for tools.
But he bought a falling down house, and over the years, he fixed the house, built a garage, redid the kitchen with cabinets he built, and generally filled the entire house with built-ins, bookcases, and furniture that made it a real home.
For materials, I would guess that better than half were scrounged or salvaged.
He did all this in a "shop" that took up 1/4 of his 1 1/2 car garage, a table saw that he made himself with a gutted circular saw, a bench that he made from 4 2 x 10's (salvaged) with a homemade leg vise, one hand plane (with a handle that was held together with tape), one $5 corded drill from Montgmery Ward, a couple of handsaws, and a motley collection of other hand tools. He never owned a router or even a CS, and none of the other power tools many of us these days consider to be indispensible.
He did all this on nights, and the one day a week he had off from his work.
That guy was my father ....................
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikki, thanks for that post.DR
Nikkiwood,
Three cheers for your Dad. He is an all-American hero.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nikkiwood, your story reminds me of my own father. After the war (the "big one"), he settled down and spent a year's free time learning about construction and woodworking in the public library. He built our house, built-ins, a lot of the furniture, and his pride and joy, a beautiful little sailboat. The boat's first mast snapped in a storm. My father set out to make up a stronger one from laminated boards. But his shop in our second house was so tiny, he could not fit the mast inside to work it. So he just removed a pane of glass from the cellar door and ran the end out the hole. This left the neightbors scratching their heads at the sight of the mast going in and out, round and round through that little hole as he shaped it up and down its length. He shaped a beautiful, strong mast from the laminated beam using a hand plane and sandpaper belts.It still amazes me how in the world he ever built the rest of that boat with the few tools he had, no experience, and nobody to instruct him. All the tools he owned could about fit in my bedroom closet today.
Edited 11/26/2006 6:29 am ET by tom21769
I love that story about your father and his sailboat. In some ways, the interesting thing about my father and woodworking was that everything he did had a utilitarian purpose; I never saw him build anything strictly for his own pleasure -- i.e. "the joy-of-working-wood" kind of thing.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I too agree with Mel. But there is another side to this. Even in my shop of ridiculously improbable tools, I've got some real killers. When you work by hand, you really want the most efficient tool possible. Because cheap tools, let's call them bad tools because cheap and bad aren't always the same, bad tools can hold you back. I don't think you can develop skills with a bad hand saw...or a chisel or plane with bad steel. I don't think you can develop the skills you want when you must fight your tools. I don't fight with my tools because I have really good tools. My "good" and LN "good" aren't necessarily the same, but that's another discussion.
Another aspect is the cost of "upgrade". Upgrade is consumerism run amuck. We upgrade everything is this society, our software, computers, tv's, woodworking tools, even our wives. I think its a terrible waste to declare that what you have is unworkable and decide the soultion is to buy something new. Instead, I say choose your computer, tools, and wife carefully!
So those two reasons: bad tools can limit your acquisition of skills, and the cost of upgrade makes the right tool that much more expensive, are one other side of this discussion. (I don't feel that strongly about this side of the discussion, but I felt it should be included).
Adam
P.S. Woodworkers who read ww mags tend to be wealthy, older, men. Part of the fun for them is buying cool stuff. They worked hard for that money and they get to spend it as they choose. If you find you are just scraping by, saving your pennies for a craftsman biscuit eater or whatever, you may not be in the majority of Knots readers or fww readers. I have no point here except, FYI.
I don't really dispute what you say, but I do have a slightly different take on it. Remember the two blind men describing an elephant?Basically, I think there are mainly two groups of amateur woodworkers -- those with the financial means to indulge in tool acquisition, and those that don't.People in the first group often rhapsodize about the pleasures of wwing, and at least part of their pleasure comes from learning/debating about which new tool to add to their shop. It's not so much that a bigger better tool helps them do bigger, better work; rather, it's that the tool will motivate them to elevate their skill -- almost like "living up" to the tool they just bought.Often, these are affluent people who have complicated careers, and they value the very concept of wwing -- which is that you don't have to depend on anyone else for a successful outcome. Since you are the one responsible for the conceptualization, design, and execution of a piece, you can only point to yourself for its success -- or failure. For the folks in the latter group, their motivations are more prosaic and utilitarian, and we don't see many of them around Knots. They aren't swept into the deeper philosophical aspects of wwing and tool acquisition, and if anything, they are only caught up in the notion of making do with what they have, and building items that have functional value in their life.So you see, I don't disagree with what you say. Many of us are hip deep in consumerism and the "upgrade" syndrome, but many others are not. And there's a part of me that is envious of that mind set. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Adam,
I enjoyed your message. Your messages make me think. So let me ask you a question. You are an expert in the use of hand tools, and you focus on the use of excellent tools. You don't agree with the use with poorer quality tools.I am just learning about hand planes. I have four used Stanleys and a Craftsman. I haven't had a chance to use Lie Nielsens or Lee Valleys so I haven't yet seen how much better they are. Because most of my experience is with belt sanders and not planes, I may not be able to tell the difference in quality between the Stanleys and the equivalent LNs. I certainly have not had a chance to try one of the really fine planes of Marcou or Holtey. I hear that these are the best! I'll take the word of the experts on this.So what should I do? I can't afford the fine planes of Marcou and Holtey. Should I wait until I can afford them (I am 63 now), or should I start learning with my Stanleys? Should I leave the Stanleys alone and start with LN and LV planes? You can tell that my question is rhetorical, but I believe you will give me an intelligent and well reasoned answer. I am looking forward to it. I think I know what you will say, and am anxious to hear if I guessed right. Your answer to me will be central to the idea of "should one start off by buying only the best tools?" Enjoy,
MelPS - my guess is that you'll tell me to keep learning with the Stanleys, but to go to LN and/or LV when I can spare the money. You'll probably say that I shouldn't wait until I can afford a Holtey to start learning.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, what kind of work do you do that you feel your Stanley's are failing you somehow?
As I said on another thread, a vintage Stanley may be a Ford, while a Hotley is a Ferrari, but both will get you to the grocery store just the same. It may be satisfying to own the Ferrari, and the Ferrari may be more fun to drive, but the Ford does the job more than adequately.
For 99% of the stuff I've ever asked of my Stanley's I cannot imagine a more expensive plane producing a significantly different result - as in if I planed an edge, a face, a rabbet, or a groove with an old Stanley or a LN an expert could not tell me which plane I used. Now perhaps the finest smoothing operations in the most figured wood is the exception, but frankly, that's not my woodworking bread and butter. A well sharpened blade and well tuned plane are the keys to good results, not the cost of the plane.
Edited 11/26/2006 4:26 pm ET by Samson
Samson,
If you are referring to my post to Adam Cherubini, I was making the point that my Stanleys seem to do just fine for me. I am not sure that I could tell the difference if I bought Lie Nielsen. I am not complaining. Adam is a superb woodworker who makes 18th Century reproductions using hand tools. His skills are incredible. In his writing, he focuses on using the best tools and not poorer quality tools. I was challenging him to advise me on what to do:
-continue with my Stanleys, which seem fine to me (which may just be because I haven't tried the "good" stuff yet)
- dump the Stanleys and replace them with LNs or LVs, which I could afford, but haven't seen the need to upgrade to.
- don't do any hand planing until I can afford a Holtey. I plan to stick with the Stanleys until I detect a problem. I think Adam will agree, but I am not sure. I believe that you and I share a belief that "good enough" is good enough. What is best for Adam, may not be what's best for me. It's my guess that Adam's high level of skill will let him notice improvements in quality that I could not discern, and his abilities wiil let him take advantage of these improvements, whereas I wouldn't even notice the improvements. In musical terms, most people who end up using a Stradevarius don't get it as their initial violin. They work their way up to it after they demonstrate they can make use of the magnificent quality.You asked what type of woodwork that I do. For most of my 38 years in woodworking I just used power tools. No hand tools, including planes. When I needed to smooth something, I hit it with the belt sander or a hand sanding block. Now I am trying to figure out why and how to use hand tools. I am finding out that there is a great deal of skill involved. :-) I make furniture. I design a piece, which is usually a takeoff on something my wife or I have seen, and try to incorporate things that I haven't done before. I don't sell anything. Either my wife or the kids get the stuff. Luckily they like what I make (which may be because I pay attention to what they say.) I make furniture simply because I enjoy it.Have fun. Thanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I was reading your post and a large smile crossed my face as I reflected on my 40+ years as a hobby woodworker - I started young!
With all of the normal commitments we all have to deal with in daily life, it seems interesting that we still find time to go into the shop (whatever we define that to be) and tinker, build and enjoy the process of woodworking.
My mother brought me back to reality the other day when she presented me with the first woodworking project I ever completed.
Dad raised seven kids, worked hard and had precious little time for himself. He was a whitecollar wage earner; therefore, he received the ususal ties and socks each birthday and Christmas. One year dad politely asked if he could get tools - any tool would be great! How many times have we told our families that line - "I would be happy with tools".
At 9 years old, I deceided enough was enough! I set out to build dad a box to hold all of his nails and screws, which continually spilt from the cheap cardboard boxes that the retailers packaged their products in. Some seasoned old pine 1 X 8 was found and the project proceded, to build a box 8" wide by 30" long by 3" deep. Inside the box (butt joints for my first attempt) was 10 small compartments meticulously sized to meet the contents of each cardboard box, one compartment for each of dads assorted nails and screws. The dividers were almost universally not square to the sides of the box, but with enough nails holding them they were guaranteed not to move. The nails holding the box together were various sizes, some stood slightly proud and some bent over when they decided they had gone in far enough, not yet fully seated. To the box was added a lid, complete with what I can only summarize as large galvinized gate hinges strong and true. Some brown stain finished off the project, several lavish coats (measured in 1/16" of an inch not 1/1000") gave it a truely heirloom quality - the patina was just right.
Dad got that box at Christmas and he beamed with joy - it wasn't a tool, but it was the start in the family's shift away from ties and socks to more practical things. My dad used that box daily for the exact purpose I built it, to store nails and screws. When dad died, mom presented me with the box, full of nails and screws sorted carefully into the compartments, to continue the tradition of using something for the purpose it was intended.
It was and still is the ugliest box I have ever witnessed, but it still works for the purpose it was intended, 40 years after it was built. It gave pleasure to my dad, it will continue to give pleasure to me and maybe this box will give give pleasure to my son and his children and ...
My point in all of this is that the box was built with a saw, a plastic kids 6" ruler and a framing hammer - not the lightest thing for a nine year old boy to use. The wood was salvaged and the nails were experienced - some already came bent prior to installation. Are the tools critical in the final product?
When I look at that nail box now I am reminded of three important lessons in life:
Each and every project I have completed has been with the use of modern, expensive and high quality tools - translated theat means whatever I had on hand at the time.
My goal in life and woodworking has been to give what I can to others, take pride in my workmanship and to constanlty strive to improve my skills and abilities. From these 3 simple rules comes the pleasure in woodworking and whether I can grab 10 hours or 10 minutes in the shop, I always have fun.
Has my LN chisels made me anymore skilled than my old Marples? NO! Has my LN dovetail saw made me any more skilled than my old garage sale backsaw for producing handcut dovetails? I THINK SO! Has my home made brass sided Shepherd infill smoother made me any more skilled that my old Stanley #4? I HOPE SO! Has my... In the end it really doesn't matter about the hand or power tools, we all have a time in our lives to enjoy woodworking, buy tools you can afford, make projects that give you pleasure and push the limits of your skills and comfort level and give someone the pleasure of your handmade creations - they will treasure it forever.
My tool collection has increased - it has for most of us. My tools have improved in their quality - it has for most of us. What has never changed has been my joy of cutting a board, joining the pieces together and finishing the project to my high expectations of myself. Doctors practice medicine, lawyers practice law and I practice the ancient art of woodworking, which hopefully I can practice for many more years to come. The tools are only part of the equation.
Have fun while it lasts!
I've been woodworking a day or two,(literally) and really need advice. I'm taking up woodworking to keep my sanity, to keep using my hands, and because of my love for wood and tools. I've been a union electrician for 20 odd years and have been dragged into the office now. I've always loved working with my hands and have always loved all tools and did a few decent summer projects in my younger years with a favorite uncle who has since passed.
I have been looking at Delta's Workshop series. The table saw, drill press, etc. are all between 100 and 150 dollars. I could get several tools to get started, and replace each as I'm able to afford it. Or I could buy the nice table saw that I want and not afford anything else for a few months (even project materials) and just stare at it.
What kind of things do I need to get a good start? I have alot of hand tools, a circular saw, drill and sanders.
Kleen, quick knee-jerk response here: work out what you need first rather than what you want- this will narrow the parameters.Philip Marcou
i will say only this....i started about ten years ago with a delta benchtop saw....it did let me complete a number of projects, but from day one, its size , or more importantly, capacity...for example, a 11 inch rip capacity max, was VERY limiting. i wont say i regretted it, but i would advise you to look around for a used contractor saw. you may be able to find a decent used one in good shape. i constantly see old rockwell/beaver saws for 100 to 150 (canadian).for the price, the drill press, and mitre saw etc...are actually not a bad value , for the money. don't let any lack of tools dissuade you, you will find a way...my first shop was in my kitchen! let's just say i did almost all hand work! good luck!
K,
You asked what other tools you'd need to start. There is no VALID way to answer that question with a list. However, there is a good rule of thumb to follow: Only buy a tool if you need it on your next project.There are a lot of articles on "the basic set of tools", but there are mostly the biases of the author. For example, many on Knots are Neanderthals -- that is, they use hand tools. If a Neanderthal answered your question, you get a much different answer that if you asked a Norm-ite. Beware of advice. It is only worth what you pay for it. The way to think about advice given to you about woodwork is much like the advice you would get about religion. If you asked the Pope, he' say be a Catholic. If you asked most anyone in Salt Lake City, you would get ..... And so on. It is exactly the same with woodwork. When someone gives you advice, they are usually just telling you what their biases are. But in woodwork, the biases different wildly. Personally, I have focussed on motorized tools completely until the past few years. Now I am having more and more fun with hand tools. Just because something works for me, it doesn't necessarily mean it will work for you. That does not mean that advice is worthless. If someone advises you to buy a bunch of handtools, take that to be an "existence proof" that it is possible to do what they do using those tools. That is important information. Learn from lots of people. Learn what each of them does. Take the things that you like and add them to your bag of tricks. Hope that helps.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Makes sense, as does looking for used equipment. Guess it's the old want it all, gotta have it all now syndrome.
But then I entered the contest to win the 5000 dollar shop....problem solved.
Edited 11/25/2006 9:30 pm ET by kleenhippie
K.H.: In case the problem isn't actually solved:The Delta line that Lowe's now stocks, at least where I live, falls at the knee of the value curve. They are about what I gradually acquired more or less by accident. We are talking about $2K here for bandsaw, tablesaw, jointer, drill press, & planer; but you may never want to trade up. Some of the Delta hobbyist tools are better than you would think, too. My belt/disc sander is their 4"/6" model. I used their tabletop 6" jointer for over 10 years. It was faithful. Worked fine when I sold it. I am aware that Delta is not the only good brand out there, but I will vouch for the value of these items as being about as good as you can get for the money. Wait until after Christmas to buy. You might get 10% off by applying for their credit card, too. Same at Home Depot where you might like the jointer a little better. Ridgid tablesaw is pretty good, too. Personally, I think that you can start your shop for way under $5K.After solving this financial problem there is the high cost of hardwood. Please let me know if you find a solution.Cadiddlehopper
Hi Mel ,
I agree about the biased advice most give .
Even for a hobby shop wood worker the real " most important tools " may not really be dependent on quality or brand name or expense . As a guy who makes a living making sawdust I'm here to tell you a shop full of equipment is nice but the tools that count are Inspiration , Discipline , Determination ,Drive and an open mind .Without these it becomes a chore as opposed to a love ,especially when you must produce to feed your family .
When we see other makers work , and Furniture shows and read about our craft we further our desires and can become inspired , at least it works for me .
dusty
Edited 11/26/2006 12:01 am ET by oldusty
In my opinion, Mel is wrong. This isn't a simple matter of personal preference. Its not a subjective choice. There is an answer. But no one wants you to learn it. Manufactuers seek larger markets for their goods, so they'll tell you can make moldings on your table saw or some such. We need to learn from people who do, not people who sell. Next, people who make a living with wood need things you and I don't. Creating a miniature furniture factory in your home makes about as much sense as buying McDonald's fryer to make french fries. For the few times you and I make our own french fries, we could cook them in just about anything. So is it an essential tool because you need it 5 times a day or 5 times a year? And spare me the ad copy that says "but you can cook other thngs in that commercial fryer". I would start with a "Tools and Shops" back issue. Look for an article by Gary Rogokowski entitled something like "5 essential tools, and why none of them are a table saw". Then answer a few simple questions:1) Will you be making things out of plywood? If the answer is yes, then you are stuck with a table saw and jointer. If the answer is no or "not often enough to justify special tools for plywood" continue:2) Are you willing to use hand tools? Suppose I could tell you in some cases hand tools will be faster than machines. If the answer is yes to this question I would recommend beginning with a band saw with some sort of homemade outfeed table, and a chop saw. You can do a lot of work with these two tools.A router with a router table is an inelegant but effective way to make a host of joints. You'll need a nice work bench. You can clean up your band saw cuts with a long plane called a "try plane". This works about as fast as a jointer. I don't see much advantage in owning a power planer. You can usually buy wood in the thicknesses you need. When you need a lot of wood in a non-standard thickness, pay the lumber yard to plane it. They have planers vastly superior to anything you or I could ever afford, and they usually charge very little to run wood through them (I've paid 10 cents/bd foot). You can't really justify a planer financially if you don't need one every day. For smaller jobs, the sort a hobbiest might encounter, wood planes work fine.You'll need an electric drill motor and maybe a drill press. A bench grinder will be needed to sharpen your tools. Consider purchasing a lathe. A wood lathe does things no other tool can do and turning is one heck of a lot of fun. But you can skip it and not miss it.That should be the default shop. A good few hand planes will get you out of the need for sanders. Okay, so i may have forgotten some things, or I may be wrong about some of the things I included. But the point is, there are tools you need for certain things and there are tools you don't need. That second bit is almost never discussed for obvious reasons. But you can ask a few critical questions like- "If i don't buy this, how else could I accomplish what I need?" Remember; There's a reason why commercial shops all have table saws. They work a lot of plywood and mdf. Take away the plywood and mdf and the tools in commercial shops would change.Adam
Adam,
As always your post is interesting and somewhat provacative. Allow me to make a few observations from expereince:
1. The thing a table saw does best - as in most quickly, well, and conveniently - for a hobbiest is ripping boards to width, not chopping up sheet. Indeed, sheet of any significant size is more easily (and safely) cut with a circular saw and guide. And while a bandsaw will rip as well, it is hardly the ideal tool for the job given its table's size and height, short fence, and significant clean-up required of the cut faces.
2. More generally, while there are many ways to effectively skin most any woodworking cat you can name, from ripping, to sharpening, to mortising, and on and on, we typically gravitate or long for the most efficient way to arrive at the result. The make-do appraoch is laudable, and we all do it at times, but it sure is nice to have the best ool for the given operation. Taken to it's logical extreme, the make-do approach leads to one chisel. Given enough time and skill, what classic woodworking task cannot be accomplished with a chisel - cutting to length and width (check); thicknessing (check), dovetails (check), M&T (check); etc. But it would be ludicrous to aproach woodworking this way. The other end of the continuum is a specialized one-tool for every conceivable job. All of us then, somewhere on that continuum, and overtime we find what works the best for us and our work habits to get the results we seek. Often it's hard to know in advance. Like most I'd wager, I have some tools others swear by that aren't good for me, but I didn't know until I tried.
I'm probably gonna ruffle a few feathers sayin this, but what the heck...
Perspective first... I'm an amateur woodworker with a full time job trying to build cabinet sized projects in a shop with less than 90 square feet of space; my choice of tools reflect some of the compromises I've had to make.
Firstly, When I first started it was a result of watching Norm for years, thinkin, "I could build that if only I had a... (insert Mk1 drool tool here)". I got away with that for about 5 years before SWMBO bought me a router for my b/day with instructions to pull my finger out and start on a list that was about a yard long at the time... I made the mistake of rushing at it... no budget to spare, didn't bother with research, I just dove in, buying what I thought was cheap capability... Needless to say, regrets happened...
Quick note on machine tools; the one thing they all excel at is making a hellova mess, rapidly... with luck, if they're set up right and you know what you're doing they just might do something useful while making the mess. Bigger power tools excel at making more mess... and flinging it farther; unless you love spending a significant amount of what should be quality hands on time doing clean up (you'd be surprised at where this mess ends up) you need to invest in some good and capable mess control tools.
A good shop vac with a tool activated PTO can be a god-send when used in combination with a hand held router, biscuit jointer, sander or other tools of similar size; the vac will intercept most of the muck as its generated. When choosing one, try to find one that will filter down to 1 micron in particle size.
For bigger tools you need a better control.. dust extractor in this case (don't let the name kid ya cos most of em are pathetic at controlling fine dust). These things have warranted entire web sites in their own right (not all DX's are created equal) and I don't have time to go into that now; my advise is not to buy one, nor any tool that needs one without doing your research first.
One last aspect I'll touch on re power tools is accidents... like the mess they make, any accidents they're involved in are usually real fast and real messy... They're not designed to take prisoners when working and can't differentiate (by and large) between wood and flesh... amputations happen... Again, do your research, buy or make the right push stick for the job, get the correct PPE and fer gawds sake use it religiously...
Scared ya yet..?? ;)
There is another way... Thesedays I seldom use my table saw, it's been over 2 years since I used a thicknesser and I forget when I last used a power jointer; I do all my stock prep (from roughsawn slabs of tree) by hand. Granted it takes me a while and every now n then I need to stop to shovel out the shavings, but it's generally a whole lot less stressful than the woodmunching method, not to mention far safer.
For sawing, if a piece is too big for me to cut by hand I'll use a circular saw with a straight edge guide. This is accurate enough to get me in the ball park for jointing the edges with shooting boards and planes. If it's a ply based project I use the circular saw to cut the sheets down to a more manageable size before they see the table saw.
For drilling, I've a small jig that I can drop a power drill into when I need a perpendicular hole, but by and large I get by with either a cordless drill or a boring brace.
Sanding is a concept that's fading into the dim and distant past; my hand planes leave a finish that'll make a dedicated sanding fanatic cry and I really don't miss the ultra fine dust they make nor the hours wasted vacuuming the shop walls and light fittings.
Thesedays the main power tools I use are routers, both hand held and table mounted; their speed and versatility is mind blowing once you get into them, and as I said earlier, when used in conjunction with the shop vac, their clean up isn't too much of a chore.
There's 2 other tool groups that so far nobody else has mentioned; books, and places like this. As a rookie you're facing a fairly steep learning curve if you're starting at grass roots level; Taunton have a wealth of damn good books available that are worth their weight in gold. This place is a hellova asset too (if ya ignore the grouchy auld farts)... the only dumb question is the one you don't ask... go ahead, ask opinions... somebody out there has the experience you're looking for, just filter out the stuff that you figure won't work for your particular application.Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Here's another strategy that has not been touched upon. Many moons ago, when I got started, a table saw made sense to me as a first purchase. At the time, a Craftsman was selling for $300 and a Unisaw for about $900.I wasn't looking at a lifelong devotion to wwing; we had a loft in NYC at the time, and I just wanted to outfit the space with cabinets and built-ins. So the Craftsman seemed the logical choice. But then I talked to a professional cabinetmaker friend of mine, and he counseled that I buy the Unisaw. His reasoning: 1) it was a good saw and will never let you down (inaccuracies, etc.), and 2) when you're done with it, there is a ready market for used machines of this ilk.I took his advice, one thing led to another, I became a cabinetmaker myself, and used that saw for the next 25 years. About 5 years ago, I decided I wanted a bigger, fancier TS, and I sold the old Unisaw for $1100 (with the various jigs I had made for it over the years).The moral of the story is that crappy tools become junk; quality tools
are more like an investment that will maintain significant value over time, and can always be turned back into cash easily if your interests shift.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
All right, you had to go leaving us hanging! What did you replace the unisaw with, and how do you like it?------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
PM 66 -- all tricked out. Wish I had kept the Unisaw.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
How come?------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Well, the motor (a Baldor!!) burned out just a month after the warranty period ended. Got them down to $400 for replacement with a lot of protestation. Probably could have done better if I had had the time to buck my complaint up the chain of command.Fit and finish issues -- like the mitre slot that was improperly milled. I spent hours on the slot with a bloody hand file, and finally got it to work. Should have made them replace it (which they resisted). But again, it was a time thing.Gears on the hand cranks still don't work right (too hard to turn). It's easy enough to fix, but I just don't want to spend a whole day tearing everything apart. Maybe if I spent less time around here ...I didn't realize what a sweet machine I had in the Unisaw till this thing came into my shop. No difference in performance or cut quality either.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Ouch! Sorry to hear that. One of the cabinet shops I do work for has an 18 year old 66 and another 66 that is about the same age as yours. They are noticeably different although they haven't had nearly the problems you have. I do their machine maintenance and I've noticed I've worked on the newer one a lot more than the old one, it was fairly minor gripes, loose setscrew that could not be tightend on the arbor pulley etc.
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Edited 11/26/2006 3:34 am by dgreen
nikkiwood,
the story about your dad is quite touching.
I hope you are as proud of him as you appear to be.
I would be content if my sons can someday write something similar
Stephen
All,
This is the best, most interesting thread I have ever seen in Knots. More wisdom in this thread than one could hope for. Reading it has helped me sharpen my thinking on the "Best" tools a woodworker can have.I now conclude that there are two: KNOWLEDGE and ATTITUDE.KNOWLEDGE - It comes from learning from your own experience and the experience of others. For a new woodworker, there is nothing more valuable than a knowledgeable woodworker nearby. JOIN A CLUB. Learn from Books. You don't need to buy them. Go to the library. Buy them used from Amazon. Those of you who had or have a Dad who taught you woodworking are among the luckiest. Without knowledge, even the "Best" tools are worse than useless. They are dangerous.ATTITUDE - This is much harder for me to verbalize than knowledge, but you know it when you see it. Some people think "attitude" is what you see in the NBA (grimacing, flexing and wearing tattoos). Wrong. Here is what constitutes good woodworking attitude:- A healthy respect for safety - When I learned to fly (an airplane), someone said, "The purpose of an instructor is to keep you alive while you teach yourself to fly.) I believe the same is true for woodworking. You can learn a lot about safety from a really good woodworker. - A healty dose of "self confidence". Woodworking is a lonely undertaking. Rarely do you see woodworkers who like to take on apprentices. They usually prefer to work alone. With that comes the need to learn to solve problems using your head. You become creative at solving problems, and you become proud of your independence. You have a deeper understanding of the characteristics of your tools, techniques and materials. - A feel for design. An understanding that just knowing the Golden ratio is only going to frustrate you. The best way to learn to design is to do a lot of it and ask your wife what she thinks of them. Be prepared to have your ego deflated. Design, design, design. THere have been a number of threads about the "best books to have". These are worth perusing. You can have too many tools, but you can't have too many books. Well, maybe you can. If you notice that your bookshelves are sagging and you haven't read any in a year, then you have too many. Remember "You can steal more great ideas than you can develop." A WOODWORKING AILMENTI have suffered from one of the worst ailments in woodworking, and I have seen it hit many others. It is INSECURITY about which tools to buy and which techniques to use. It hits hobbyists, not professionals. There is a tendency for hobbyist woodworkers to be financially well off. This is not 100%, but I see a lot more wealthy woodworkers than poor ones. These rich hobbyists have a tendency to become a bit "Snobbish". This is not 100% but it is very real. Just scan a bunch of posts on Knots. Just go to the local Woodcraft, and watch the people sign up to take the $1200 "course" in making a chair. I refer to this group as the "Yuppie Woodworkers". These YWs have a tendency to focus on expensive tools, which causes them to focus on talking about having "the best" tools. This causes the problem of becoming INSECURE about selecting tools and techniques. This leads to continual questions to Knots asking "What is the best shoulder plane (set of chisels, table saw, way to cut dovetails, M&T, etc etc etc). They need to have someone else, preferably someone with a big woodworking name tell them that this tool or this technique is BEST. YOU MUST LEARN NOT TO FALL INTO THE TRAP OF BEING INSECURE, and having this insecurity cause you to only spend big money on expensive tools, and on having to ask others about which technique and tool is best. Have the courage of your convictions and the self confidence to study different tools and techniques, to try them out, to see the "biases" of others, and TO MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS WITH CONFIDENCE. Never ask someone else to make a decision for you. You can ask them what they think, but it is up to you to determine how to use that info. Just because Tage Frid used a bowsaw to make dovetails, it does not mean that you have too. :-) On Knots, it does not take courage to say "Buy the Lie Nielsen chisels." It would take gumption to say " Buy the used set of Marples for $15. they cut just as well as the LNs when they are sharp, but you just have to sharpen them more often." Certainly you will be criticized by the YWs for such a statement. If you are confident, you don't worry about the possibility of being criticized. BE CONFIDENT (after doing your own research).I apologize. This message is too long. But that doesn't matter, because no one reads posts that are this long, so I am just talking to myself. That's not bad, because I like what I hear. Have fun. This thread has been great. I want to thank everyone who contributed, but these posts have caused me to think and thus to learn, and also because I have enjoyed it thoroughly.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
well said 9619....this is one of the most active and enjoyable posts in some time...as a side note..i LOVE my marples chisels...i beleive they are discontinued, although i heard they were being manufactured under a different name...ANYone know if its true? or have some to sell...best dang chisels around for the money...maybe not even for the money haha....i appreciate any help offered....thanks and enjoy the wood, eveyone, which i think is really the most important part...mike
Mike,
Thanks for the nice words.
YOu asked about Marples. They are still for sale under the name "Irwin". Woodcraft sells them, and I am sure you can get them off the web at a number of places. I often see the Marples chisels go for sale on EBay, but they are identical to the Irwin.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Long message" I just read it and learned a lot. Enjoyable too.
Tink,
I'm amazed anyone read it. I am very happy that you enjoyed it. I am finishing up two cabinets, and I wrote the long message as I was taking a break. Interacting with other woodworkers like yourself is really enjoyable. I didn't know what I was missing before I joined Knots.The two cabinets that I am making are from the same drawings. Only the woods and the finish are different. I am going to post photos in the Knots Gallery when they are finished. One is pine with milk paint finish. The other is curly maple with a aniline dye stain and an oil poly finish. I think of them as "fraternal twins." It has been an interesting exercise to work the two at the same time. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Oh, I read and enjoy them. Very helpful too. Almost all the posters are helpful. Will be looking for your pics. Can't wait till I get the shop done so I can work in it and not just on it. Yesterday the wood boiler was delivered so now I need to hook it up and get warm. When (and if) I learn to send pics I would like to illustrate and explain my setup. That could be very boring - but hey, if just one is interested it makes me feel good.
Tink,
Maybe there is a teenager in your area who could show you how to load the photos. I am sure a lot of folks will look at your setup and send you messages. I would much rather exchange photos than words, but we do what we can. My shop is small, so I keep some tools out in the garage. If you look at my profile, you'll see a photo of me next to a tenon jig whose design I found in a Glen Huey book. I used that jig to make the tenons in the two cabinets that I am finishing up now. Keep me posted on your shop.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
In defense of us Yuppie Woodworkers (YWs, as Mel calls us).
I'm not retired. I work full time, help take care of my daughter, am an active semipro musician, maintain my house, and try to keep in decent physical shape.
I have little time to spare, yet I yearn to create beautiful wooden things; furniture, boxes, toys, games. I want to gradually gain the skills and tools I need to do these things so that, as my responsibilities start to fall away, I will be able to make great use of my time to create these things of beauty. Maybe something good wil come of my early attempts too, but the skill-building is my primary goal right now.
I have used great, well-sharpened tools in others' workshops and I have used bad tools from my early mistakes in buying cheap. Having encountered the difference, not being under significant financial constraints, and not caring to waste my limited time trying to learn a fine skill with a bad tool, I have started purchasing my own great tools. There's too much to learn and I don't ever want to wonder if it's something I'm doing wrong or the tool's fault. The way I'm going, I KNOW it's gotta be technique. So I read some more, practice some more, and figure it out.
As a musician, I am well aware of the difference that a decent tool can make. I did ok with my early instruments, but I started getting calls for high-level pro gigs within a year of purchasing and starting to play pro-quality instruments. It's a fact there are pros who sound great on 'inferior' instruments, but I don't have 60 hours a week to devote to my music. Do I pay for gold-plated dingles on the instrument? No. Do I pay for a great sound, good intonation, and mechanical solidity? Absolutely.
I apply the same principal to tool purchases.
One last thing. While I know it's inevitable and am willing to tolerate it as the price of learning from these discussions, I'd like to let you all know that I (and I'm sure a bunch of other lurkers like me) do NOT appreciate the reverse-snob attitudes from several folks on this forum. I like most of what Mel has to say, but he and others sometimes cross the line from justifiable pride at what can be accomplished without wealth and get into this rich-guy bashing thing, apparently not realizing that not all rich guys are snobs, and apparently not noticing that general anti-rich-guy attitudes are just another form of snobbishness. Enough said. I won't bring it up again on this forum.
MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.
Hi Mike,
I hope we can be friends. I need all the friends I can get. I was trying to make someone feel good about their tools, when they felt their stuff was inadequate. In trying to make him feel good, I got dramatic, and I unwittingly upset you and possibly others. Let's find some common ground. Life is too short to make others unhappy. That is the last think I wanted to do. I am sure that I like good tools as much as you do.Please answer two questions. What musical instruments do you play? and What type of woodwork do you like to do? I enjoy the five string banjo but am not a great player. In woodwork, I am pretty eclectic. Mostly I do casework. I design a piece and make it. Sometimes I design as I go. It's risky but fun. I do carving, woodburning and decorative painting to make some of my furniture a bit more interesting. I am 63 and have been doing this since about 1966. I look forward to hearing from you.
Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well, I read what you said, and I agree and appreciate it very much. I started out when we decided to build a new house. We has enough money to hire out the framing and closing to the weather; roof, windows, and siding. I decided that I could finish the inside myself. I had never done any thing like that before, but I had more time than money, and figured it could be only so bad. Lots of our friends had unfinished houses. Neither of us like drywall, so we went for wood, and we wanted local wood. We found some Alaska birch, and if we bought rough, I could buy a planer and a router. I already had old Beaver with a 2 sq' table and no fence, so we bought 2000 sq' of 1/2 X 3 1/2 boards, and along with the few tools that I had collected over the years, turned the bottom floor into a shop, and the next 6 years or so was spent by me milling and nailing up all that wood. I bought a lot of books, usually after the problem arose, so that often I learned how I should have done it, later. But I learned other things as well, so that I progressed to be fairly good wood worker, and am now able to earn some money at it. The skills and enjoyment will be my retirement bonus. Anyway, the point of my rant is that you can't be intimidated by lack of skills or tools or whatever. If you want to work with wood, try it. I learned many things, the most useful and suprising to me was patients. Read the instructions.
Yep, he was a good man and a good father. But -- for most of my early years, he was flinty, and we had a strained relationship. You could always hear the sounds of two strong egos clashing.........He lived until he was 91; it wasn't until he was about 60 (when I was 30) that he stopped treating me like a child, and then the relationship morphed into a real friendship by the time he was 70, when he took on a reflective, philosophical bent that he had never revealed to me before. Only after that point was he willing to dispense with the persona of the strong parent/leader, and talk more freely and intimately about fears, pleasures, vulnerabilities, and the good/bad experiences of his life. IIRC from threads at BT, you have children that are approaching college age, so I would guess you are giving some thought to the shifting nature of your relationship with them as they move into adulthood. In my case, it wasn't until his last 20 years that we were able to rid ourselves of the strictures that are too often inherent in parent/child relationships. I am just grateful we were granted the time to make the transition. Good luck on your voyage through these sometimes treacherous waters.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood
I too fantasized about the PM 66 for eons. I had the 1988 version of the unisaw that I got used, from of all places, a customer who hired me to build cabinets for him because he thought he could do it himself, and figured out quickly that he couldn't. $250.00 discount on the job, (his number) and it came home in the truck with me. I replaced the tube fence with a Biesemeyer, and used it well for years.
I replaced it 6 years ago with a 66, because I had to have the 66. When I put the 66 together, I had to hand file the wings to get the top flat. It took about 6 hours of filing, removing, testing, filing, removing, testing.......Those cast iron wings are heavy!! But, now that it's dialed in, I have to say that it's a better saw than my Unisaw was. Also, I sold my Unisaw for $1000.00, including a delta slider attachment I paid $50.00 for at a garage sale.
Now that you're 66 is right, do you like it, or do you wish you kept your uni?
Jeff
I liked both saws, I thought the PM had a beffier looking motor and a better surface on the tables. The ones I looked at had pretty much the same Biesmeyer fence as the Delta. Both looked like they were more accurate than me! Had price been no object, I would have bought the PM but I was able to get the platinum edition 5 horse for cost and that swung the decision.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Nikki,I find your posts interesting and well-reasoned, so I'm gonna ask you a question that I've never understood: Why does a professional cabinetmaker in the USA use any table saw that is not a slider? I'm not talking about hobbyists in basement shops, and I realize that the question is irrelevant for 90% of the people on this forum. But having lived and worked outside the USA for most of my life, it always looks to me like Delta, PM, etc. have hypnotized small shopowners there into thinking that what they call a TS is normal. For around $10,000 you can get a small but decent sliding carriage saw. Don't tell me that the business can't afford it. What am I missing?best,
DR
This has always puzzled me to - that and the profusion of articles (cf the current FWW tools and shops on crosscut sleds. And those b-awful mitre fence things that fit in a slot. A sliding table needn't be expensive - I have a Robland combi (10" saw with sliding table, shaper, 10" jointer and thicknesser (planer in us?) that cost under $4000, with a dust extractor thrown in. I don't have an RAS or a chop saw and wouldn't ever dream of buting a TS without a slider. And on the combie, the slider is also good for doing really scary stuff with the shaper.
ring
I read your post to nikkiwood regarding sliders, and I thought I'd enter the conversation. 6 years ago, before I bought my new PM 66, I was looking at sliders, also. The biggest issues for me were cost justification, as well as the footprint that a slider consumes in a shop. At 5 times the cost of a 66, it was a large decision to ponder.
I would have to guess that all who say the slider is the way to go are absolutely correct, but I've never had the opportunity to work with one, so I guess I don't know what I've been missing the past 20 years. I built my crosscut sleds on the cheap for under a $100 for all 3, and I just became used to that process, and put the extra $8K into other tools in the shop.
Since purchasing the festool guide and saw for processing sheet goods last year, I feel like I've died and gone to heaven regarding processing my cabinet parts.
What factors about a slider, in your opinion, make them worth the large extra investment? I consistantly read here on the Knots that they are a no brainer purchase, but rarely does anyone explain why.
Jeff
Edited 11/26/2006 10:25 am ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,I don't think I can write a treatise on the advantages of sliders. If you ever have a chance to use one, don't miss it. In a nutshell:1) For cutting sheet goods it's just in another league. Typically for a set of kitchen cabinets we need to cut up about 10-12 sheets of veneer ply into some 60 to 80 various pieces. That takes one worker about an hour and a half, and every piece is absolutely square and perfect. The scoring blade leaves both sides of the panel clean. And when you're done, you're not tired from pushing panels through the saw. Once you've got the panel laying on the carriage, it's no effort at all.2) When ripping solid stock, you can edge-glue boards right from the saw. I haven't used a joiner on a board's edge in 10 years. If I use the clamp-down at the front of the carriage, and hold the rear end of the board as I push, the saw cut I get is so perfectly straight over 10' of travel that I challenge anyone to do better on their joiner. We regularly glue up 8/4 hardwood stock for tabletops and such, right off the saw.3) Any jig or attachment that you ever dreamed of that rides in those TS slots will work smoother and more accurately when attached to the sliding carriage.If somebody provokes me I could probably come up with more, but that should be enough. Bottom line - I have no doubt that for a professional cabinetmaker a slider pays for itself in under a year.best,
DR
Speaking of shops, how did yours turn out? Any more photos that you want to post?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Happy holiday's, Jim. I'm in the process of finishing (finally) the inside. When I get it done, I'll post some pics. I'm building a wall mounted tool box for all my hand tools, and it's taking quite a bit of time, so when I get it done and hung, I'll get the walls up, and shoot some pics. Maybe sometime before 2008?!? LOL. See ya soon.
Jeff
I just got home and thought I'd check out if anyone else has posted any responses since I checked it out yesterday. Imagine my surprise when I saw there's over 70 responses now and all are worth their weight in gold for the knowledge that all of you posses.
I'm truly grateful for all your responses,I just have a quick question though:I know that with a limited shop income I also watch very close the amount of money I spend on materials so my question is this;Do any of you do a lot of comparison shopping for materials or do you have a vendor that you buy all your materials from that you trust completely? Personally I and my son take old buildings apart and clean the materials from all old hardware. When the materials are all hand scraped and we've went over each piece with a metal detector then we surface plane,joint and size each piece depending on what the project that's being built requires. True it's a lot of work getting the materials in working condition but the look of the materials when the projects completed and the finish is on theres just no comparison to it. The best thing about using recycled lumber is knowing that I'm not using materials from new growth or should I say fresh sawn materials. Also with very little moisture in the wood theres literally no warping or movement of the wood once the projects done.
Again thank you all for your responses and I hope you all many more good years in the shop making sawdust,
Sincerely,
Jim at Clark Customs
Jim
90% of the hardwood that I use comes from logs that I mill myself. I have an old horsebarn on my property that I gutted and turned into a woodshed for all my lumber. It has large doors that I can open up to load and unload with a bobcat and forks, and it's where I airdry everything. For certain projects, where I need some 8/4 stock of some species where I don't have any dried and ready, I'll go to one of three local mills to get it. It's usually less than a one hour drive each way for me to get to one of my favorite sources.
Most of my work is cabinetry these days, and I get all my veneer grade plywood from one source near Chicago. When I go, I stock up, as it's a 1 1/2 hour drive each way for me. Owl Hardwoods is not cheap, but the quality is good, and they always have what I need in large quantities.
Jeff
Jeff,
It must be nice not having to handle each piece of material every time you need to move it once you have it stacked. I on the other hand don't have that luxury. Like I said before I use a lot of recycled materials in building my projects which consists of taking apart old buildings which I get given to me for cleaning them up completely the bad part of all this is my wife gets just a taaaaaad bit upset at me when I start filling the basement with lumber after the loft in my shops chucked full. I haul the beams from old barns to a Amish friend of mine that has a sawmill,he does all the sawing for me and for him doing so I split the wood with him 50/50. I have several species of woods snickered away everything from red and white oak to ash,cherry and even some redwood. I think about my most prised lumber is several hundred board feet of chestnut that I got from beams that I had sawn. I hope some day to have a much bigger facility but for now I have to just make do with what I have.
Sincerely,
Jim at Clark Customs
Edited 11/27/2006 8:04 am ET by ClarkCustoms
Jim
Sounds like you've got a nice collection. Btw, it's still back breaking work seperating the stickered stacks by hand. The forklift is nice to be able to lift large stacks around, but if I need to get some boards out, I've still gotta do it the old fashion way, break the back!
Jeff
Jim, in response to your question about checking the price of materials...Again, my experience running a professional cabinet shop is clear on this - comparative shopping will save lots of money. Case in point: We have 2 regular suppliers of hardware, whose sales reps stop by the shop often. I show each one his competitor's bill! You'd be amazed at how much they are willing to come down to make the next sale. I'm not talking about peanuts; we buy about $100,000 of hinges, drawer slides, pulls, etc in a year. Making the agents knock their heads against each other has saved us about 10% from what we used to pay. It's the same with everything.DR
In answer to your question about pros and sliders:First, there wasn't much talk about TS's with integrated sliders in this country until about 5-6 years ago. Second, I buy the great majority of my tools locally from one outlet, and they don't sell any of the sliders. To buy one, you have to have it shipped in, and then you are at the mercy of some CS person on the other end of the phone if you have a problem. That said, I would love to have a slider, but my main shop is only about 1600 sf, and over the years, it's layout has evolved into what I call a "boat" design --i.e. I am obsessive about organization, and everything has its place. I would have had to do a major reconfiguration to fit in a slider TS, and I just felt the benefit wasn't worth the effort. I'm sure a slider would enhance efficiency, but I don't have a production shop, so I have never been pressed to turn things out at maximum speed. I have devised any number of work-arounds to compensate for not having a slider, and too, I was the first on my block to buy a Festool CS set-up.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikki, thanks for the honest reply. Sometimes I yearn for the days when I had a one-man shop and everything stayed where I put it.
After I finished ranting to Jeff Heath about the advantages of sliders, I forgot at least 2 more:
4) Long cross-cuts. How do you accurately and repeatably cross-cut a pile of 8' boards? Just for the fun of it, at a 45 deg. bevel?
5) I believe the slider is also intrinsically safer. If the board I'm ripping is clamped down to the carriage at its front end, it's not going anywhere. Maybe the cutoff will fly, but the piece I've got my hand on isn't going to surprise me. Also - I can cut deep into a plywood panel and then back out without the slightest fear of kickback. Not to mention the overarm guards and riving knives that have been standard for years.
I'm afraid when I retire I'll have to set up a shop with more modest machines, but for now at least, I'll enjoy the slider.
regards,
DR
"4) Long cross-cuts. How do you accurately and repeatably cross-cut a pile of 8' boards? Just for the fun of it, at a 45 deg. bevel?"
Radial arm saw? Circular saw and crosscut square/guide? With either the board stays put and the saw moves.
Do you cantilever an 8' board off the side of your slider, or do you use some sort of support? How long is the fence on the slider so that the 8' board doesn't want to pivot?
"Radial arm saw? Circular saw and crosscut square/guide? With either the board stays put and the saw moves."You're just making my point that the common TS is unsuited to making these cuts at all. Of course one can use another tool. And if cutting to a pencil line is what you mean, it's not good enough for us. BTW, the crosscut fence on my SCM saw is 8' long with a telescopic extension to about 12'. You can place the fence anywhere you want in relation to the carriage, so that for instance, you can crooscut with the board in front of the fence or in back of it. The pivoting you mention is never really an issue.DR
Edited 11/27/2006 12:17 am by ring
Hi DR ,
As another one man shop , cost and the dedication of the space is a factor . I know shops that have sliders and can clearly see the many advantages , but can't justify the expenditure . I also realize the cut can be superior to a PM or Uni saw .
I suppose the slider is to the Uni as a CNC is to the slider , do you have a CNC yet ? A guy I apprenticed with uses a CNC for sheet goods he says it's the cats meow .He also has a half a dozen employees and many large machines for many large high end jobs , imo for you and him the volume and type of work you produce does justify these and other production equipment expenditures .
Imo in a small shop even if I cut all my box parts for an average kitchen of 10 - 12 sheets or so in an hour and a half my assembly time and procedure would remain constant . As far as quality in the end product suffering by doing it the old fashioned way , I can't see that as a factor .
The larger shops in my area send me work , even though they realize I am not as well equipped as the big boy's , they know when we put our products side by side little conversation of lack of equipment will take place .
It takes me longer than you but in reality my cost per foot is most likely less , because of lower overhead costs . I do not believe quality is sacrificed by spending more time on my products , perhaps the opposite is true .
Lastly in a large shop let's face it not all the workers are truly skilled cabinet makers I think you would agree , some cut some assemble some finish ,how many of them can do it all ?. High tech machines may actually make up for lack of skills and basically do more of the job for the user .
Happy Holiday's to you dusty
Hi Dusty, and happy holidays to you as well...I'm curious about one thing - how do you get a clean cut on both sides of veneered ply, or laminates? If we're cutting oak or wenge veneer, even the best blade will cause some tearout on the underside if we didn't use the scorer. I take your point about your overhead as a one-man shop. But I suspect that a slider would save you a lot more time than you imagine.Regarding who does what in the shop, you're right - not everyone uses the saw. We normally have 2 kitchens being built in parallel, each by a separate team. The team does everything except the finishing. But only 4 out of 8 workers in our shop use the TS. No, we don't have a CNC, and I can't even see one on the horizon. I've subcontracted things in the past to someone nearby who has a CNC, and I can see the advantages in a real production situation. But we're too much of a custom shop to make it worthwhile. If you don't have a constant flow of work for the machine it's better to sub out what you need.regards,
DR
DR ,
One day a salesmen came into the shop and asked me to try this blade on Melamine . Melamine had always been a challenge to get a clean cut on both sides in the past . To my surprise I couldn't tell which side was down .
By now most probably use similar blades , it's a 10" 80 tooth with a negative rake , I use the same on the RAS for crosscutting lumber and narrow plywoods 16" and under .This particular blade is Canadian made , I try and keep them sharp and although in some veneers there is some tear out on the underside for the most part the cuts are beautiful right off the saw .
It seems more shops here use panel saws rather than sliders . I must admit one larger shop had a nice Altendorf slider that I'd drool over each time I saw it . BTW that larger shop has since gone out of business .
I've never had a client question my equipment or methods for that matter . I cut my teeth on laminate work but have migrated away from it , now most of my work uses Maple interiors with full overlay doors Euro hinges and all full extension ball bearing slides .I try and put out a quality product that will last the test of time .
dusty
Niki,
I couldn't agree with more on your assessment of buying quality, resale should be an important consideration. If we could only figure out a way to convince the furniture buying public to follow the same philosophy. I can't seem to give my, solid wood, furniture away! I don't think my work is that bad, (search Knots Gallery for salamfam) yet no one will pay for it. I have even offered it for the cost of materials only, no sale. The big box, plastic coated, processed wood flour products are all the average person knows. Anyway, did not mean to hijack the discussion, but there is a correlation.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
salanfam
Edited 11/26/2006 2:36 pm ET by salamfam
For a one/two man shop, making a go of it in cabinetmaking is extremely difficult. I read a review in Woodwork a couple of years ago where Chris Becksvoort admitted to making just over $30M/yr in his cabinet making business. That's especially sobering, since he is one of the best and most visible guys on the national scene these days. To make it, you of course need the requisite skill, but I think you also need to be a near marketing genius. I would put Sam Maloof in this category. There are lots of other people who can make a chair the equal of his, but there are few, as far as I know, that can command his prices. And I attribute that to his superior marketing ability.I learned a long time ago that there is more money in renovation than there is in cabinetmaking. And as a consequence, most of my cabinetmaking flows (in one way or another) from my renovation activities. For instance, right now, I am building a set of French combination storm doors for a GC I know; before that, we renovated a sun room with a new bump-out window, and then I did the window seat and a wall of built-in bookcases. I never do kitchens, which I regard as production work (and I'm not set up for that), but I will do the odd cabinet they can't buy off the shelf. In the end, I can't offer much advice. Except maybe to gather together a portfolio of pics, and go talk to contractors in your area, especially those doing remodeling. It is also probably worth your time to seek out any architects and interior designers and see if you can get your name on their Rolodex. Good luck.........................********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I suspect you meant $30,000/year, not $30,000,000/year by Chris Becksvoort.
I know of several boatbuilders who work by themselves or with one or two others, and none seem to make a reasonable living solely by building boats. Most have a spouse or significant other who have a job with a steady income and some level of benefits. Sometimes there may be some other financial means, either inherited or the result of a previous career in a more lucrative field. There are also the folks who build boats as a sideline to other work, in some cases maintaining and repairing boats. Those who seem to be relying on building boats as their primary source of income typically doesn't last too long. There are exceptions but usually a minimal cash flow lifestyle is needed to stay independent.
I suspect the same is true for many cabinent makers.
Did I get my shorthand wrong? I thought M stood for 000's and MM stood for millions. I am sure CB would be right happy if it were millions. <G>I think your analogy abut boatbuilders holds true for cabinetmakers. I have met many who either 1) sit on a trust fund, 2) had big careers in the corporate world (and saved their money), or 3) have wives with successful professional careers.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I don't think the abreviations are universal. Where I work in the US K is used for thousands and M for millions. This is similar to the SI system except the K should be a lower case k.
WIBAMU.......HHIS......thanks. I'm still trying to get used to these and the other internet abbreviations. :-DBTA, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks (:-).TTYL........EOM********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If you want acronym overload, go into IT networking. It's ridiculous- they use acronyms for everything and some have already been used so it adds to the confusion.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I agree. The abbreviations are not universal. In some professions, M is thousands and MM is millions.
Alan - planesaw
Wow, this has gotten to be quite an interesting thread. I knew that I had run across something special when I found this web-site. Having to unexpectedly put all new tires on the wife's grocery-getter today put the kibosh on getting started until after New Years, although I can continue (as my new friends have pointed out.) to use this new tool and continue to research my first project.
I had been using somewhat different tools for over 20 years until back surgery forced me into an office job. I have always bought the best available tools for electricians. That doesn't mean that they were the most expensive, but generally they were made "just right" for my hands and more importantly for getting the job done. (It's been odd opening my tool bag and oiling them every month or so, I had never had to do that before.)
As an union electrician I've always thought of myself as a Craftsman, I know that most people wouldn't but we do. If you ever looked at the way the rigid feeder conduits are run on a big industrial job or in a big powerhouse...Or the way cables are bent this way and that at their termination you would see why. I guess beauty is in the eye of beholders in these cases, not everyone would appreciate it as much as a fine piece of furniture.
I've learned to work with steel mere inches from 480 volts, sometimes wrenching on live lugs. Our saws and drills cut and drill concrete and steel, but still are fairly unforgiving on the flesh. I'm sure I could be pretty safe in a wood shop.
I've decided I want to start working with wood. There really is nothing I could do inside my trade as a hobby that really excites me. Not like what I've seen in the galleries here, and in books I've been checking out. I have a Gibson Les Paul Custom, it has a very nice quilted maple top. I really do not play that well, but I had to have it because it's so beautiful, and the feel and tone of the wood.... Well I'm sure a lot of you understand.
Thank You all for the advice, you have all made me realize that I don't need a fully outfitted shop right away. But it is nice to want things....
Kevin*************************
"Yes Dear, I'll be up in just a minute....."
I have always for some reason aimed for the best of everything, aimed high, worked very long hours and have a great shop with every possible tool in it.
Dont get caught in this trap!
Once you get caught in this trap of nothing but the best you will be working to support your habit.
I have never used some of my tools and most not very much.
I never stop working to enjoy my tools.
The tools you can afford will allow you the time to use them, and the practice with your tools will build better projects than the tools you have no time to use.
Jim,
When I got my first job woodworking (1971), the boss told me to show up on monday with a ten ounce clawhammer and a block plane. The other tools I'd need I could get as I got some experience. The hammer I bought was a pretty chrome plated job that cost me about $2.50 from the bargain bin at the hardware store. It was impossible to drive a nail with that thing without bending it. Soon, I was loking to "upgrade". Spent what seemed like an inordinate amount of cash for a 13 oz Plumb brand, I'd guess about $12-$15. I still have that hammer, and use it daily.
That was when I understood what my dad meant when he used to say, "I'm too poor to buy cheap tools."
No desire to get into the discussion about what tools you need, or even which brands you need, but when you find that you need a tool, get good quality.
A mentor of mine used to put it like this: "The bitterness of low quality lasts long after the sweetness of low price is gone."
Regards,
Ray Pine
Ray,
Great message. But I believe the example that you gave about the hammer makes it clear that "Best" is hard to determine until you know what you are doing. When you were a newbie, you focussed on the bright chrome hammer. After you tried to use it, you found the problem, and then you learned what constituted a good hammer. When you are new to woodworking, it is impossible to appreciate the difference between a Unisaw and a contractors saw. After you have used them, it becomes obvious.IT is impossible for a newbie to tell what "Quality" is. He can see what is expensive. Someone wrote in saying that they traded in their Unisaw for a "Better saw", and now wish they had the Unisaw back. That was an experienced woodworker. We all see greener pastures, and the magazines insure that we see even greener pastures. I wouldn't recommend a newbie buy a set of LN chisels and then learn how to sharpen them. I'd recommend an old set of Marples, and a grinder. After a year of using the Marples, and having learned how to grind and sharpen and hone, then, if you can see the difference between the Marples and the LN, and you make sufficient use of them, then buy them. You can sell the Marples for what you paid for them, and get the LN or AI or anything else. Or better still, keep the Marples and use them when it is appropriate.Of course, when I saw my wife for the first time, I knew she was quality, and that I wasn't going to trade up later. So it is possible to recognize quality when you are new at some things. :-)Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
While it is true that I didn't know what made that Plumb hammer a good one, I surely did know at the time that the first one I got was a cheap one. Could have saved myself some grief, and money, had I gone for quality instead if price. It isn't necessary to understand the ins and outs of heat treatment, for instance, to buy good quality cutting tools.
I do agree, though, that some amount of experience, or access to someone who has experience, can save time and money. After all, as an old scoutmaster once said. "We get good judgement by living through the experience of poor judgement."
I'm not at all convinced that it is necessary to have "the best" tools to do good work. But this is all subjective, isn't it? Seeing the surface quality of the hand planed wood on Adam's website, shows me that his definition of good enough and mine are different. Not bragging here, just stating that different folks doing different work will have different standards. David Pye's book on workmanship discusses this very point; that the level of precision required in building a china press is verydifferent from what you'd expect to see in a rustic garden gate. The rougher, looser workmanship in the garden gate is appropriate for its use and environment, while building it to the level of craftsmanship expected for interior cabinetwork would be overkill, not working to exemplary standards.
So that the Holtey plane may be more tool than you (or I, or Adam) need, for the work that we do. Your example of upgrading from the Marples to L-N chisels, I'm not sure I'd agree with. Likely either would be sufficient for any of us, who are more interested in using them, rather than having bench candy. Leastways, the older Marples tools I've used were as good as any other brand I've had in hand. Maybe the newer ones are not? If not, why bother in the first place?
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
Thank you. You make sense. That scares me.
Mel Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
mel,
Scares me, too. I didn't mean to do it...
Ray
Okay. This thread just had to break the 100 post mark. I've really enjoyed what you've all had to say, especially the personal stories about your dads and kids.
Thanks,
Matthew
Well said. Bench Candy, what a nice way to discribe it.
Jack
If you're a hobbyist, like me, you buy what you need, when you need it, and at a price you can afford. As a hobbyist your concern is getting a job done as well as you can and time is not a great factor.
But if you’re in business you have other concerns. You need to buy what you need, when you need it, at a price that is based on what it will pay you back in either improved performance or time savings.
Perhaps a cheap plane will do the same job as a high end plane, but you might save 10 hours a year in sharpening and tune up time. In a case like that the good plane pays for it’s self over and over again during it‘s life and the cheap plane costs you over and over in time. It‘s a little simplistic but I think it makes my point.
Jack
Frugal , thrifty ,but not cheap. That's me. I find a tool that suits the jobs that I expect it to do.I try to stay away from bells and whistles.The feature have to benefit me or there will be no sale.
When I bought power tools for my shop I looked at the fact of what I was expecting them to do ( type of work and the amount of time I was going to use them) and bought accordingly. I am not a full time wood worker so most of my power tools were selected to get the job done. I don't see where a $2000 jointer, for most of us , is going to do all that much more then a $400 one. Same is true for Table saws. I use mine mostly for ripping as I assume most of us do. Would a Powermatic do any better then a Craftsman with a good motor and a good blade? Probably not if you have a good fence set up. One tool Id go upscale on is my band saw for resawing and such but again.its a blade and a motor. My Bargain basement saw works fine but there are many times I look at it and think "Laguna". Drill Press..... another piece that doesn't need to be the best on the market, just drill a straight hole and , in my case be able to do a half way good job as a mortising machine. My chop saw station could use an upgrade to a sliding compound mitre saw...easier than doing the job on the table saw I think. The area that I concentrated on to go upscale when purchasing was hand tools, especially hand planes. Just seems like good ones do save a lot of energy. The one tool over looked by so many that you really have to have a good one to do good work is a work bench. Buy or Build a good one and youll never regret it. You can outfit yourself with a complete shop that does the job nicely for less than the $5000 that was outlined in the recent Tools and Shops edition from FWW...assuming you don't buy a Lie- Nelisen work bench of course
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Jim,
I started with out with my Grandfather's toolset. He has 1940's Craftsman 8" TS, 36" lathe, and a 6" jointer.. Good (small)cast iron tools set on old handmade bases which were falling apart. All the cutting tools, knives and blades were fairly low budget and quite dull. He also had a few old mixed planes, bit braces, and a hand full of files and such. My Grandfather died 2 years before I was born, so I had no chance to talk to him about these tools. My father isn't a woorworker, and didn't have much information to offer me on the tools or the trade.
With this tooset my Grandfather built a camp, (wood paneling, doors, all furniture, windows, about every inch of the camp is wood) and dozens, maybe hundreds of other pieces. He built this work at night. During the day he was a Superintendant for a furniture factory which later became an Ethan Allen shop. There he was Managment not a hands on employee.
He made many peices with these tools. They were pine, pine or pine. The stains were maple, maple or maple. The finishes were wax, wax or wax. There were always a few scrathes left after sanding. Hand made wood putty was used to fill screw and nail holes.
As a woodworker in my 20's (many years ago) I had already worked part time in a custom shop for 3 years, taken countless wood and design classes, and was about to graduate with teaching certifacation in Industrial Arts. I thought I knew what I was doing, and though I loved my Grandfathers work, I thought I could do better, cleaner work. After all, I had his tools, had added more, had access to industial tools, and had learned so much.
It was at that time (Spring break of my senior year) that I took a roofing job at my Aunt's house. Her house was 8 hrs away, and I hadn't been there in 10+ years. While at the house I saw the most beautifull cherry desk I had ever seen. Wonderfull gain, nice fit and finish, stained a nice deep redish brown, a work of art in my eyes. As I studied it, my Aunt told me it was made by my Grandfather. A light wind would have knocked me over. It had changed my view of Grandfather's work. He was capable of making high end furiture. He had the skills, and the tools to do it.
He worked with a limited tools set. Bought what he needed to do the work he liked to do, not what he was capable of. He loved the craft.
GRW,
P.S.
Mel, nice last post. Thanks.
Thanks to all of you I feel pretty darn good about what I have. Like a lot of you my granddad was a carpenter also. I got the majority of his tools when he past away but instead of working them I guess you could say I retired them by hanging them on my shops walls.I'ts truly a real pain to keep the dust off of them but it's a real joy to have them where I can see them everyday. I can't tell you how many times I've been working on a project and happened to look up at one of his old braces or hand chisels and wondered back then if he'd do what I am in the same manner. I'd love to be able to work with him again also I'd like to know what he'd think about the projects that I take on and build. Sometimes I wonder what he'd think of my shop all the tools that I've put in my collection over the years. But then again he did the majority of his work outside in his backyard and the place he kept his tools was in the back of an old ford pickup truck that he put a topper on the back of. when I work wood I go in my '16 x 24' shop and stand on concrete all day. When he worked wood he'd be in the biggest shop of all,the great outdoors, he'd definitely build some beautiful stuff for no more than he had at the time. I ask you who actually was luckiest me with my little shop or him with his humunguss shop that he shared with all gods critters???? I'll let all of you be the judge
SincerelyJim at Clark Customs
Just about every honest answer should acknowledge that we all struggle with the budget issue. The pros can sink in the money because it is a livelihood and investment and a long term view requires it. As an amature with a limited budget I always struggle with the money issue.
What do I do about it? For the stuff where I can get away with being cheap (disposables , bar clamps, and whatnot) I go cheap. On tools where I need precision I get quality without frills and I wait a long time between purchases. Then on Saturdays I go to estate sales and hunt for antique hand tools and other usable items that I get for a bargain. Kind of enjoy the hunt and restoring the tools too, as an added bonus. I spend a lot of time in Woodcraft staring at the cool items, and very little time in the check out line (they've figure me out now).
That's what I do.
Jim,
I think the advice that others give along the lines of "buy the best you can afford" is good for these reasons:
* In the long run you get better monetary value (eg measured in hours-used/dollar)
* Good tools tend to work better (eg less vibration & wear; more accurate and adjustable).
* You can concentrate on the furniture making as good tools tend to become "transparent" in use - they always work well, in the same way; and you "become one" with them.
* Well engineered tools are a pleasure to handle, look at and own - on top of their superior functional abilities.
On the other hand, I know people who produce very high class stuff with hardly any tools, the ones they have being crude, old and worn. Such folk are common in green woodworking, for instance. They have increased their skill and art to such a degree that the knife or chisel is more like a harder finger or sharper fingernail than what we think of as a tool today.
I confess that I am in the former camp; and my "secret" motive is, off course, to play with nice toys. :-)
Lataxe
"secret" motive is, off course, to play with nice toys. :-)
shhhhhhhhhhhhh.... weesht man.. if SWMBO reads that she's gonna demand sooooooo much more "toys" for her own vice...
<mutterin...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,
As your ladywife is of the caste Must Be Obeyed, I presume "her own vices" may be those exciting ones I once read about involving black clothes of various arcane configurations.
If you cannot list the related toys that she may puchase instead of your new plane, I think you should post the pictures. I will try not to be shocked.
Lataxe the Curious
trust me... if it was merely arcane I could roll with it.. it's far far worse than that....
you really donno from suffering till youve endured the hardship of having to edit and print dozens of designs... backgrounds too... (along with all the acompanying "aaaaaawwwwwww.....cuteeeee..") that she demands to satisfy her fetish for making cards.... I've lost count of the printer cartriges that've met their end while trying to satisfy her craving....
If word of this ever gets out, my friends will disown me..... I'll never be able to show my face in public again...
gawdddddd the shameeee.....
ummmm... dressed in black..??
somethin you wanna clue me in on here..??? What am I missing...????Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hi all,first-time poster here, just want to add my $.02. I've been making dust for 12 years now and thus far I've used a pretty wide range of tools of both the power and hand varieties.
One of my first purchases was a boxwood handled set of Marples chisels at a whopping $75 CAD. A few years later, I got a job with a local boatyard as an interior finish carpenter/installer/cabinetmaker and decided these prized chisels would get wrecked in that environment (boatyards like to eat tools. Ever had to use a fish finder to try to spot a circular saw?). So I picked up a set of Marples Blue-Chip chisels as my "beater set" for $40 CAD, reserving my boxwood handled set for my "best work". In the intervening 6 years or so, I've used my boxwood set but 3 or 4 times. The point? the boxwood ones lured me in with their old-world looks and, as a novice, more expensive means better, right? The Blue-chip set was $35 less with several years of inflation tacked on and here's a secret; have the exact same blades as the boxwood set. On to handplanes, I have a modest collection of bench planes (a Record #5, a cheap stanley #3 a Record #778, etc) A fellow I work with just bought a spanking set of LN planes (#4, #5 1/2, #8) and has let me test-drive them all. There's no denying it, the LN tools came well tuned righ out of the box and plane beautifully in even the toughest grain. They are also a joy to behold. On the other hand, The set (plus a dovetail saw) cost him $1000 CAD. The jewel of my collecton is a vintage Stanley #4C (C for corrugated) which, after a paltry 2 hours of tuning and a new Veritas iron, leaves a surface on curly maple which is indistinguishable from that left by the LN #4. The kicker? The Stanley was given to me by the owner of the set of LN planes. The point I'm trying to make (Long winded though it may be), is that with a bit of knowledge you can get good results with modest tools. Knowledge is everywhere. FWW is a great resource and I've learned so much about tool maintenance and woodwork in general from it's pages. There are lots of people out there (and on here, it would seem) who have the knowledge and experience to help with virtually any question you might have. As a bit of an afterthought, the opposite seems to apply to small, portable power tools. My consideration now, when buying these items is; "Does the better tool cost that much more than two of the cheap ones?"
I've seen guys with $50 "hardware store special" cordless drills go back for 2 or even 3 replacements because they're, simply put, crap. I spent $160 CAD on a set of two Makita cordless drills and they're still going strong - 6 years later. Sure, it cost me more initially, but in this modern world of "time is money" the added expense of replacements and for those of us who are self-employed the time-loss involved in running out for a new one, I think I've saved money. Time to step down from my soapbox. Just wanted to get my $.02 in (or $.04 as it happens). Thanks, Nat
Well said..................Welcome aboard.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
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