Replies

1. 
   PlaneWood | May 14, 2002 03:14pm | #1

   What part of the country are you in?  If in a high humidity area then you should have your shop environment equal to the home environment.  Also, check the Heating / AC ducts in the room where the table is to set.  No ducts should blow directly on the table.  Have no idea how to move the sucker.  Could you assemble the top in two halves and make final joining and finishing on site??

   I heard of a guy once building such a table for a church.  The AC ducts blew directly onto the table and within 6 months the top had badly split.  Make sure you allow for expansion and contraction of the top.  In 5' width, the movement could be as much as 1" across the grain for some woods.   Check your expansion tables for Teak.

   Obviously, you want the grain of the wood to be as close to quarter sawn as you can get.  In 16' it will be hard to find a board with the grain at one end running the same as at the other end.  Try alternating ends of adjacent boards if this is a problem.

   Oh yeah, good luck!

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
   PlaneWood

1. 
   user-302616 | May 14, 2002 06:17pm | #4

   Thanks for all your replies. I'l reply them in turn.....

   Planewood,

                       I live in Singapore and our climate is tropical somewhat like Florida. The dining room is almost certainly air-conditioned so I am definitely going to remember wood movement in my design. I'd rather not join it on site as I dont think I could get a nice joint and I would have to finish it on site too, with construction going on around me. the table will be made from 2 book matched pieces each about 3ft wide- I have the wood already. I bought a teak log 6 years ago and had it flat sawn....16ft long and about 3.5 ft at the base. They convert the logs into boat decking, flooring, stair treads and dimensional lumber. I made friends and told him I'd buy the biggest logs he had...he's seen so much wood, its all the same to him. Can't talk to him about the soul of the tree....

   Kim,

           I know an old carpenter who joints by hand for me and the fit is perfect so far - he did a 10.5 ft table from 2 30inch wide slabs. The slabs will be quartersawn at the edges but so the matching will be straightforward. I am worried about the flatness of the table as seen from the ends.  As I said, the flitches are pretty limber at 16ft and I think I need to support them at least at 4 or 5 points hence the truss. I fear flattening the table- looks like its going to be done with a belt sander unless I can find a great big wide belt sander. Good point about making sure the client has enough room, will ask to look at the house plans.

   Sgian,

             I am thinking very seriously about making it knockdown but the top has to be in one piece so there's not much to gain there. How did you prevent that 20ft table from sagging in the middle?  I am wary of polyurethane and I am more familiar with epoxy so will stick to that ( oops, sorry ). Will use a loose tongue or spline though. A  Warren truss is a ...( help me out guys...)  it has a top and bottom members running longitudinally and these are connected by diagonal members like this ///// .  The Firth of Forth bridge is a truss bridge but  a Warren truss is much simpler.

   Thanks again for all your help. I will keep you all posted.

   Shane

1. 
   SgianDubh | May 14, 2002 08:34pm | #7

   shaneyee, I didn't build the table. I was called in to polish it, which I did with alkyd varnish. It came out nicely actually, although I always preached doom and gloom about the proposed, and actual, structure- narrow solid hickory planks glued up in the width and in the length (sometimes incorrectly described as butcher block style) with urea resorcinal glue. About 20' long by 5' wide with a heavy moulded lip all round the edge mitred at the corners.  I reckoned there might be anything up to 7/8" of expansion or contraction from the median point which would play hell with those mitres. I haven't heard how it's fared. I haven't been called back for any polish maintenance, probably because my bill didn't get paid in full, ha, ha.  That table had a refectory style underframe with a middle leg that provided additional support. There were large beams running the length from one end leg to the other. It was certainly solid.

   I too have my doubts about polyurethane glue. It's the only one that I've used in plank table tops that I've ever been able to break cleanly right at the join line with no tearing of the surrounding fibres. My testing is not scientific, but I'm just a wee bit suspicious.

   I know the Forth Rail Bridge well. I'm from Edinburgh and I've driven past it countless times over the Forth Road Bridge. And there's a picture of it hanging behind me, along with a bunch of other scenes from the Lothians. Perhaps that's why you picked that example?

   It might be worthwhile thinking of a top that big as a floor, and treating it as such for the purposes of flattening. Just an idea. Slainte, RJ.Link to RJFurniture site.

2. 
   kcg99999 | May 14, 2002 03:39pm | #2

   Hi Shane,

   Great gig!

   I think there are a couple of challenges to building large tables – and the materials handling issues you’re going to face color them all. The first is jointing and then planing the boards. You’re going to need a big jointer with a long table to support the boards – and you might need inboard and outboard support as well. Even though you’re starting with 9/4 stock, you’ll want to look carefully at the stock to find out what finished dimension you can get out of it. As you joint the boards, they’re going to move as tensions are released. You’ll need to take the boards down to finished thickness in several passes letting the boards rest for a week between passes. As you joint the boards, you’ll also increase the pattern jump between the bookmatch as you take off stock. If the boards are quartersawn you won’t notice, but if not, you might very well loose the bookmatch. Pattern jump is a consideration even with veneer. If you’re taking off major stock to flatten the boards you might not get what you’d hoped for.

   In terms of supporting the table, you can raise the stretcher so that it’s directly under the table. If the stretcher is at all crowned, make sure the crown goes up.

   You should know going in that handling a large table is very difficult and potentially dangerous. It’s heavy and awkward. I once had to use a chain hoist to turn over a 10’er I was working on. You’ll definitely need a second person and maybe a crew of 3-4 to safely turn the top over. Don’t underestimate this issue. It’s a big one. Make sure you budget extra time for this issue as you come up with your price.

   Finally, make sure you can get the table out of your shop and into the clients house before you start. I had an inquiry the other day from someone who wanted a piece 11’ by 5’ by 4’. Even though we have an enormous freight elevator, I can’t get a piece that size out of my shop. I had to redesign the piece. Also make sure that the client really has room for the table. A 16’ table requires a minimum of a 24’ room for people to comfortably sit and circulate. And even then it would *Look cramped.

   Hope this helps.

   Kim Carleton Graves
   Carleton Woodworking

3. 
   SgianDubh | May 14, 2002 05:14pm | #3

   A trestle design suggests that you might be able to make it knock down (KD.) Small parts that can be carried in relatively easily. Just a thought. A couple of years ago I had to work on a 20 footer in hickory. That was not the easiest table to move around, so Kim's notes about additional grunt labour are perfectly true. It sounds like you are working with 16' plus long planks, is that correct? Almost a pity. If the length was running across the table you'd be able to make the top in smaller panels that are locked together on-site. This seems an interesting project with quite a few logistical problems. I'm  interested in knowing how it turns out.

   Oddly enough, polyurethane might be a good glue to consider for joining your planks. It's fairly tolerant of oily timbers, and you could use an alignment aid too, such as biscuits or a loose tongue and groove. What's a warren truss? Slainte, RJ.

   Link to RJFurniture site.
4. 
   DaveinPa | May 14, 2002 07:00pm | #5

   I do have one question for you.

   Will the floor support all that weight? If there is a lower floor or basement it may not be strong enough to support the table. Then the floor would start to sag. Correct me if I may be wrong but I think I would start the project from that point. The floor may need extra support.

   Dave in Pa.

1. 
   EBrandt | May 14, 2002 07:42pm | #6

   Dave has a really good point - I have a friend that just built a (nice) new house, and the contractor thought he was doing the owner a favor by clear-spanning the basement ceiling....you can see how this turns out: everything is fine, drywall is hung, painted, flooring put in etc. Then the granite countertops for the kitchen (above the clear span basement) show up, now he's got several cracks in his drywall various places...

   definitely worth considering, or at least letting the architect know what's going to go in the room.

   E.

2. 
   user-302616 | May 15, 2002 04:33am | #8

   Dave,

             Here in Singapore the houses are usually made of reinforced concrete frames with a brick infill. There are no longer any wooden houses built because of voracious termites and a history of disastrous fires especially around Chinese New Year what with all the fireworks going off. The fireworks have been banned too but the safety regulations still dont allow wood structures. The reinforced concrete floors are designed to take a load of 1000kg (2200lbs) per sq metre ( 10.76sq ft ) so they are plenty strong. Thanks for your input.

   Sgian,

             Well, the Firth of Forth bridge is famous and I saw it in a book about architectural structures. It came to mind as I knew you were from Scotland and would be familiar with it.

             I like the idea of treating the table as a floor and my friend at the lumber mill offered the use of a parquet floor sander, like a random orbit sander on steroids. It would be much easier to sand at floor level standing up than it would be trying to reach into the middle at table height.

   Thanks,

   Shane

5. 
   woodrae | May 15, 2002 07:32pm | #9

   Shane—

   Interesting that you mentioned "the soul of a tree."

   When I was a clueless, non-woodworking young man, I lucked out and landed a job at George Nakashima’s studio in New Hope, Pennsylvania. (I suppose the fact that my brother had worked there before me didn’t hurt.) George was well-known for his work with "live-edge" slabs; big, wide, burly chunks of some of the finest woods in the world, sawn through-and-through and left that way to display the tree’s immense girth. In my time there, I saw countless large slabs of wood go through the workshops, and many big tables were made. I remember one table in particular.

   It was a conference table, destined for Columbia University in New York City. The table was about 20 ft. long, and made from East Indian laurel. If you’re not familiar with this wood, think "gorgeous boat anchor." Indian laurel is heavy, dense—and with beautiful grain, color, and texture. I don’t recall the precise base design, but it was traditional Nakashima—probably his trestle-style slab, with a thick, solid panel at each end for legs, connected to upper and lower stretchers. The upper stretcher helped support the top, which was in the region of 2 1/2 – 3 1/2 inches thick. The top itself was one piece, probably 4 – 5 ft. wide.

   In the machine room, we had an open-faced (no fence; no blade guard), 36-inch jointer. Really big slabs were "finessed" across the jointer by two men, which was actually quite easy to do and a lot of fun. You sort of shimmied the work over the tables. The open design allowed us to joint slabs that were wider than the knives. The flattened timber was then sent through a big thickness planer to bring it to final dimension. Sanding was done by hand with belt sanders followed by electric orbitals.

   You might think about taking your rough teak to a large cabinet shop that has these types of machines. They can joint the edges while they’re at it, too. As for splines, they will certainly add strength to the joint, but I trust modern glues and so wouldn’t bother. I don’t think you’ll need splines for alignment purposes, either. Just use as many bar clamps as you need, start clamping in the middle and work your way to each end, and have your helper tweak the boards flush with each other by grasping the ends of the boards as you draw each clamp snug. Your idea of epoxy is fine, but I’m wary of working large areas with this stuff, as handling the adhesive and breathing the vapors can pose serious health risks. Personally, I’d go with a urea formaldehyde, also called plastic resin. The brand I prefer is Unibond 800 (ask for Daryl Keil at Vacuum Pressing Systems, Brunswick, ME 207-725-0935; inquire whether he will ship to you) because it’s a resin/powder mix (not water/powder), is strong as heck, has a long open time, and will stick to oily woods like teak. Bonus: it cleans up with water.

   I would also plan on working on three or four sawhorses for the job as opposed to a bench. This approach will give you access to both sides of the work as it progresses, reducing the amount of times you’ll have to flip it over. Turning over the work shouldn’t be a big problem, but make sure you have enough help. It usually took about six of us at George’s to tackle the really big stuff like tables.

   I’m not sure what you mean by "build the table and truss in one piece upside down" but I think a sensible plan is to construct the base separately, dress the top, then position the top upside down on your sawhorses, and secure the base to it. At this point, you can start the finishing process. All our finishes at George’s were hand-applied, which actually makes the process much easier with large work. We would dash on the first coat on the top surface first (with the table standing on the floor), so that any excess dribbles would be splashed on the raw wood on the underside. Once the top surface had its first coat, we would flip the work over onto sawhorses and apply finish to the underside without risk of wayward glops of finish blotching the top, or public face.

   I believe a good crane operator can handle your 2 1/4-inch-thick tabletop without worry; straps and webbing at key points should keep things under control and prevent bending. Of all possible snafus, my money is on improper site planning. The laurel table we made was scheduled to live on an upper floor in one of the Columbia buildings. On delivery day, the table was trucked into Manhattan and a crane lifted it up to the correct floor, only to discover that it wouldn’t fit through the existing windows of the building. They eventually had to remove a large fixed window to get the beast inside.

   —Andy

1. 
   user-302616 | May 16, 2002 04:27pm | #10

   Andy,

            What a great experience! I was originally inspired by an Australian woodworker called Leon Sadubin but he doesnt seem to be well known outside Australia. When I chanced upon George Nakashima's work it was like a light went off in my head. Yes, this is what I was after. I am trying to develop my own style but its still derivative from Nakashima and Sadubin.....slowly,slowly.

            I am trying to get a big commercial shop to do the surfacing but its not easy. You really need to get to know the owner first otherwise they are not inclined to interupt their work flow. Your description of how the work was done is really useful and somewhat reassuring to know that even the giant pieces have to be finished with hand held tools. Its interesting that you advocate urea formaldehyde; I am sold on epoxy but when I made friends with a veteran woodworker he showed me this white powder in a flour sack that he used to edge join tables- it was urea formaldehyde. I thought it was primitive but he gets invisible joints with this glue and his old wooden jointer plane that was finer than I could get with epoxy. And the stuff is strong too!

            The reason I want to build it as a truss was to make it really stiff so it could take the handling from the crane. I thought of building it upside down so the surfacing would be one of the last things done and the top wouldnt get dinged.

   Thanks for your advice.

   Shane

2. 
   ETG | May 16, 2002 07:20pm | #11

   Andy:

   I thoroughly enjoyed your detailed "tour" of how you did work with George N.  Could we ask you to go just a bit further - once everything was assembled, what were your final steps?  There is always much debate/discussion about sanding vs. cabinet scrapers.  What steps did you follow?  If you used sanders, what kind - belt, random orbital, straight line, etc?  Thanks again for the great background!

1. 
   woodrae | May 16, 2002 11:24pm | #13

   Edgregg (what an unusual name)—

   As I mentioned previously, we typically used a belt sander (Porter Cable’s big, heavy locomotive-out-of-the-1920s-looking one; not sure they still make it), then used electric orbital (not random-orbit) sanders. Some stuff went through a wide-belt sanding machine when it was feasible. Sanding was done up to 220 grit or thereabouts. Scrapers were rarely seen in the table-making shop, although they were more common in the cabinet shop.

   Our finishing regimen was to sand between dried coats, usually by hand with 220-grit paper. Before the final coat, we smoothed with four-ought (0000) steel wool.

   Keep in mind that all this was done close to 30 years ago; I’m sure the techniques in the current workshops under the guidance of Mira (George’s daughter) have changed since then to keep up with modern tools and equipment.

   Having said this, it’s important to understand how George ran the workshops. There was no "right" or "wrong" way to do things. If you got your work done in a timely fashion and the craftsmanship was up his standards, George didn’t give a fig how you did it. When I worked there, there were a couple craftsmen who had been there for 30+ years. These veterans (and master woodworkers) did whatever the heck they wanted, and often disagreed with some of George’s approaches.

   I clearly remember one time, though, when George picked up an oilstone that belonged to one of the veterans in the shop, took one look at the deeply-dished hollow in its center, and bemoaned the fact that the man wasn’t working with waterstones and keeping his stones flat. Of course, George never said this directly to the craftsman in question, as this wasn’t his way with people.

   —Andy

1. 
   ETG | May 17, 2002 04:43pm | #15

   Andy:

   Many thanks - enjoy reading the background.  I tried registering with my name - Ed Gregg but it was taken so I just ran them together.  By the way, I picked up one of those old Porter Cable belt sanders at a yard sale for $3 - had the worm gear missing - for about $100 I have a great sander and yes they still make them.

   Again thanks for the info about George N's shop!

   Ed Gregg

1. 
   Elcoholic | May 17, 2002 10:48pm | #17

   How did you go from $3 to $100?  Is that a $97 worm gear?John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

2. 
   Elcoholic | May 17, 2002 10:54pm | #18

   If you can't get hooked-up with a shop with a wide belt then a belt sander would be the best bet.  I recommend one of the 4" x 24" Euro brands with electronic speed control and a sanding frame.  I have the Bosch.  The frame keeps the sander level and provides depth of cut control.  Sadly the US brands don't offer sanding frames.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking

   Life is tough.  It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne

3. 
   ETG | May 20, 2002 04:28pm | #22

   The worm gear was not cheap, but I also had the cord replaced with a 15 ft. one and new brushes and new grease/lube for the entire machine.  I have a local chap who is an authorized repair station for several major brands - he does good  work and I don't have to take my time to do the job.

6. 
   sschefer | May 16, 2002 10:58pm | #12

   Just a thought, have you considered re-sawing the Teak to venereer thicknes and attaching it to a more stable surface. I think you would solve a lot of the problems.

   Steve - in Northern California

1. 
   user-302616 | May 17, 2002 06:09am | #14

   Steve,

             The 2 teak pieces for the top are about 3 ft wide and much too big for resawing. I wouldnt even think about ripping it ....besides, where's the poetry of 2 matched pieces of wood coming together to make a beautiful yet thoroughly functional table. Anyway, I enjoy the challenge of engineering it to work.

   Over here in Singapore there are dozens of shops that make veneered MDF conference tables - garish things with burled veneers, birds eye and curly maple all enbalmed in polyurethane. No one even notices them, I know because I work in a bank with dozens of these ugly AND expensive things. Slick but hopelessly uncoordinated. And then people come over and see a single teak flitch 3ft wide and 16 ft long sanded down but unfinished and they are in awe. They look at it and touch it and they connect with the tree - a huge living thing that stood in a forest for 200 years. No, trees dont have souls, people do and a piece that they can recognise as part of a tree touches them.

   Sorry, Steve, didnt mean to go on. I do want to try veneering especially with woods I cant get in big chunks but theres few things that stir me more than a big hunk of tree.

   Shane

1. 
   sschefer | May 17, 2002 06:35pm | #16

   Understood. A while back I took a walk around to the different conference rooms in the office. I noticed that none of the large tables except one in the CEO's office were solid wood. Most certainly the solid wood table was the most appealing. Good luck with your endeavor.Steve - in Northern California

2. 
   btcinwood | May 18, 2002 06:35am | #19

   not sure if this will appear in the order that would make sense... but

   when shaneyee said that there is no soul to a tree, but it touches the soul of people, while earlier paying homage to the concept of 'soul of a tree' I think that shaneyee captured the concept so very effectively.

   I very much agree and would like to add that as stewards of the forests and the planet that if more work evoked the feelings in others that shaynee is striving for, there would be greater value placed on that type of work.

   I also understand the initial feeling of 'let's veneer it and preserve the resource', but in truth, the lasting piece will be one that evokes feelings from generations of owners.

   Where I grew up and currently live (berkeley Ca,) there is a shop whose stated philosopy is to produce peices that will last longer than it will take to re-grow the wood used in its construction is a philosopy that if executed effectively is one that reflects the way a tree influences the human soul.

   good for you shaynee for trying to touch the soul of those around you, and if your work is as you say, hopefully it will be around for as long as it takes for a tree to grow to replace it.

   yeah, I'm a nut.

   just my 2cents

1. 
   user-302616 | May 20, 2002 05:21am | #20

   Mikey,

             Thanks for your post. I was busy over the weekend so I didnt get to read it till today. Actually, I despair at trying to preserve the resources of this world. Humans are such voracious consumers! When I bought the log, I had to make a table like the ones I saw in Nakashima's book - I just had to.Maybe I was just greedy... Now, that I have made a few tables from the log the feeling is moderated. I promised myself that I wouldnt buy another log till I had finished with this. So I passed on a beautiful huge log ( 4.5 feet wide ! ) but urged the sawyer not to cut it as long as he could. To his credit, he held it for at least a year but then had to mill it ( aaargh!  flooring and yacht decking  sob..). The last few years I have only bought logs that were cut down for road widening or to clear sites for building. We have some great woods growing along the roads here - Mahogany, Honduras and African, rosewood and also Pterocarpus Indicus but few are bigger than 2.5ft diameter.

           The forests are going at an alarming rate but seems there is little that can be done about it. I planted some teak saplings in my old school but thats just the trees, the forest cant easily be replaced.The sawmill that I use is moving to Burma so some economic benefit is  going there. Let's hope they start making semiconductors before the forest is all gone.

   Shane

1. 
   WilliamTaber | May 20, 2002 02:39pm | #21

   Have been away for a few days and just caught your post. Did anyone suggest a third trestle? I would certainly consider it. Also epoxy glue would be my choice of adhesives.Float the top  in keyways for expansion and contraction and reinforce splined joint (joints) with decorative butterflies  maybe. Sounds like a fun project. Have worked with teak a lot but never in those dimensions so am unsure what future problems you may have in your climate.

   good luck

2. 
   user-302616 | May 20, 2002 05:38pm | #23

   Bill,

         I thought of a support in the middle but wanted the cleaner look. I also like the challenge of spanning the 12ft without any perceptable sag. My concept of the table is a bridge and a minor piece of engineering as well as a piece of furniture. My client trained as an engineer but never worked as one. The design would appeal to the engineer still inside him.

         Yes, I probably would have some buttterfly keys and maybe float the top on dovetailed keyways though thats a bit more involved than screws in slots. Teak is very stable and great to work with and sometimes you get drop dead gorgeous  figure....hmmm, wish the women at work were like that. Ooops I'm gonna get flamed for that one.

   Shane

3. 
   woodrae | May 23, 2002 07:56am | #24

   Shaneyee—

   There are some beautiful women where I work. But I digress.

   Why not place two relatively wide stretchers between the ends of the table frame, one under each plank but well aft of the knees of the sitter? After all, you have such wide planks for the top, which allows you to set these stretchers considerably far back from the edge of the table while still supporting each plank. Tenon the stretcher ends into whatever you have on the ends of the frame—rails or planks. This way, you’ll have your engineered "bridge-type" support without showing near nuthin’ but tree on top. The stretchers should be somewhere in the region of 5 – 8 in. wide (or else extremely thick) to maintain rigidity and support 12 ft. of heavy top.

   As for connection of tabletop to frame, I’d follow your intuition and do what I learned at George’s (and from many other shops and craftsmen): simply drill holes through each wide stretcher—perhaps tweaking the bit a bit to ovalize the holes—and drive ‘dem screws through the stretchers and into the top as tight as you can. Simple, strong, effective, and with plenty of humility to withstand the forces of wood movement.

   Regarding souls, I think this thread has emerged with an exceptionally fine set of them. It makes me proud—in a warm, giving sort of way; not the pride of ego, but the pride of heart—to be a person involved with wood. To work and touch real, living, breathing, and dying wood. It’s a bonus to come across people with the same feeling.

   I will add that, in my personal view, trees do have souls, essentially just as people do. Because of this, one way to look at the practice of making beautiful things with wood is that we are paying respect to and polishing the bones of our ancestors.

   —Andy

4. 
   sschefer | May 23, 2002 08:01am | #25

   Andy you said... "I will add that, in my personal view, trees do have souls, essentially just as people do. Because of this, one way to look at the practice of making beautiful things with wood is that we are paying respect to and polishing the bones of our ancestors".

   My only response is .... Amen.Steve - in Northern California

5. 
   user-302616 | May 23, 2002 07:35pm | #26

   Thanks Andy, those are good ideas. I will try to remember all the ideas that everybody has contributed and incorporate the appropriate ones as I design and build this table. Hopefully, it will do justice to the tree.

   Shane

6. 
   Lilshaver | May 23, 2002 11:45pm | #27

   Another possibility that hasn't been mentioned is to simply not join the two slabs at all. Let there be a gap in the center of the table. This is a bit unconventional, but so what?

7. 
   ScottInMadtown | May 24, 2002 07:47pm | #28

   Shaneyee,

   In one recent issue of FFW they built a table using torsion boxes.  This might be a way to stiffen your top.  Build a relatively thin (3 inches?) torsion box under the top.  Set it back from the edges of the table to prevent it from being seen.  I can look up the exact issue for the torsion box construction if you would like.

   Scott

1. 
   user-302616 | May 25, 2002 05:16pm | #29

   Jeff,

          Though about keeping it the leaves separate but decided I didnt want that look for this table. I have used it for another tables that was massive ( 10inches thick ) but I want this one to be joined. Thanks for the idea.

   ScottInMilw

   I think a torsion box might be difficult to engineer for  a solid wood top. There will some expansion and contraction and I dont know what the result would be. I am considering a box girder but I just like the look of a Warren truss. Its a business like no nonsense structure with a great macho look!

   Shane