May 15–
Decided to start a new thread for the second half of the project. The old thread was getting too cumbersome.
I spent the last week adding finish to the bottom but for the most part, it was a wild week at the office, and my attentions were directed there.
The wood for the top arrived today. I don’t have any of the skirt wood, that I’ll Have to hunt down on my own. But laid out– it’s going to be a terrific top. The hardware for the twin screw is here. I’m still on the fence about the tail vise.
Getting excited about the prospect of finishing the project.
Replies
gettin' there
You're almost at the point where you need to give the top a whack with the rim of a hammer. After the first dent, the bench will seem more like a tool. ;-)
The lumberyard did a nice job cutting up the maple. I won't worry too much about getting the work perfectly straight, there's not that much bowing in the wood. The glue should take care of it.
One thing I WILL need is more clamps for this 84" glue up. 10 bar clamps and 4 trigger clamps isn't going to cut it. Rockler will be getting another visit.
Plenty of dents in the base already from the various disasters. It looks pretty darn good, but on close inspection, there are enough nicks to call it a "real bench"!
Just laying out the top today made the project feel like I'm actually making something I'm going to use. Remarkably, the bench is EXACTLY 36". Right on target. Who knew?
Only a thought..
... One thing I WILL need is more clamps for this 84" glue up.
Long clamps can get very expensive. Think about using some 1/2 to 3/4 inch threaded rod and some coupler nuts to extend the length(s). Don't forget to get a bunch of thick fender washers and nuts.
Threaded rod make wonderful clamps and easy to store away when not in use. I slip the very inexpensive (as in the cheepest you can find) water hose over the threads to protect the wood and rod threads from glue. Some hardwood cauls with holes also help. I use the rod couplers for tightening nuts. They are longer than common hex nuts and are idea for rushing a glue-up.
Have fun!
Ha-- spent a bunch of money on more pipe clamps yesterday. Didn't think about any other options. I have about 24 clamps now, that should get the job done. Pipe clamps are the way to go, as far as most clamping power for the buck, but it sounds like your threaded bars are a neat solution! I built a wall rack to hang them on, but I'm going to be out of space, now that I have a bunch more... So I'll be building another clamp rack next week.
I'm going to glue the 17 boards together first, then build the aprons and install the vises, so I have a working top in the interim. We are 4 inches thick and 84 inches long-- a MONSTER! This top is going to be awesome. When my wife kicks me out, I now have a bed.
A bed, a raft, a surf board
Reeltime.
Do you have lunch box planer? It would be smart to glue up three 12" sections, and then glue the 3 sections together. You will have a much better chance of getting straight and flat that way. With the lunchbox you can run the sections through to get those level. It will save you a ton of time.
I am wondering why the aprons on a 4 thick bench. It is easier to clamp off your work directly to the top without the aprons getting in the way. You might look at a roubo... I have aprons on mine and have cut them off...
I would also question the 36" width. If you are big guy 6' plus some you can reach across the bench. 28 or 30 might be easier? Again my bench is 36" and I walk around it alot. Next bench will be 24" so I work on drawers and such easier. I will keep my monster for sheet goods.
AZMO
Yes AZMO, I do have a 735. In fact I have a helic head awaiting my installation at my next break..
As usual, your suggestion makes sense, both from a logistical (making it flat) and a sensible (getting 17 boards glued without the first boards setting by the time I clamp them) standpoint.
the only downside I can see is snipe. The 735 needs to be fed 'just' right or it snipes at both ends. You have to feed with upward pressure as you enter, then run around to the outfeed and pull up slightly as the last foot or so goes through.
My plan is now altered; i'll do it in sections.
36" is the height, not the width. The width is 29".
The apron will provide me with dog holes on the sides, for holding long pieces, plus give clearance for the vise hardware. I suppose I could just mount an apron around the vise.. I have to think about that one.
Great suggestions (again). Learning every single day of this project!
-Michael
Aprons
After 30-odd years of woodworking and a lot of trial and error, I would suggest you not have aprons at all. I have found the best top has one thickness all the way across. That way when you want to clamp something to the top the clamp has a level surface under there to seat. It is very frustrating to have a wide apron and thiner bench behind that apron. Just something to think about.
Robert.
Hi Robert--
As you scroll down this incredibly long long thread-- I did wind up going with a skirt. It came out really really nice, complete with double dovetailed corners. The skirt extends 3/4" below the bench top. What I've decided to do is either screw in, or glue up a 3/4 inch strip of maple along the front of the bench's underside, to allow for solid clamping. Not ideal, but I was really upset about "The Great Jigsaw Disaster", and wanted to get the extra inches back on the length of the top. Currently I'm working on the front vise, and will have an update about the backer I'm rigging up for the jaw shortly. Great learning experience.
Threaded Rod
Will,
That's a great idea on the threaded rod. You can bet I'll be using it in the future.
--Jonnieboy
regarding snipe
Regarding snipe and your trick to try to limit it ... FineHomeBuilding.com had an article on constructing an infeed and outfeed table for your planer. The author's design did the same thing you mentioned - slight up pressure as you infeed and again as the tail end of board outfeeds. He claims to have eliminated virtually all of snipe. Read the article for a better explanation and drawings to see if it will work for you.
How to Build a Shopmade Planer Table
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/how-to-build-a-shopmade-planer-table.aspx
care and feeding
I think jfsksa has a good idea with the construction of temporary infeed and outfeed supports for planing the sections of the benchtop. Each of the sections will be quite heavy, and as such, difficult to control. You might also need to bolt the planer down, along with the infeed and outfeed supports, for greater stability.
Planer
Reel,
Good comments on the snipe, looks like you bought the right length and will need every inch. Another possiblity is to have it sanded, have a wood source here with a large belt sander, so you could run the whole top through the sander. Now picking up this bad boy and putting into the back of the sports car could be interesting....
May 22- The rains stopped
May 22-
The rains stopped and by Thursday I was ready to do my first section of the top's glue-up. 6 boards Thursday, 6 Friday, and 5 today.
This was one messy messy job! I'm sure I'll get better in the future, but I got as much glue on the floor as I did in the joints.
Everything went fine, though, and I've got the last of the sections in the clamps drying. I started planing away the excess glue, in prep for the planer.
I'm using a bullnose plane from Veritas to get the gobs off, then using the old Buck Brothers Jack Plane to get down to wood. Damn handle is still loose and I've got a nice blister on my palm. I don't want to chew up my Lie-Neilsen planes, and I really don't feel like mucking up the new head on my planer with a bunch of hard glue.
I installed the Shelix head from Byrd Tools on my DeWalt 735 planer Thursday night. It's a complicated procedure, but really it went together as well as can be expected. The only issue is how to hold the head in place while tightening the pulley. I opted for stuffing towels between the head and the housing. Probably not as tight as possible, but it worked. I've yet to try it out.
So I'm sort of back where I started, planing slabs of wood. At least this time I'm planing at the proper height. The plane isn't in my chest!
Looking Good!
You're making some real progress! It looks great.
Jonnieboy
Table sag?
reeltime, as a first step, I recommend that you shore up the table to prevent the sag. It sounds like this is the source of your problems. Once you have the table flat and will not sag against the weight, the process should go a lot better for you.
If you cannot prevent the sag, you might want to try a different approach. If you have a good solid level floor, move your planer to the floor. It is not as comfortable working at floor level but it will eliminate the sagging problem. I have used my garage floor when planing a single board.
Another approach would be to create a temporary work table from saw horses, lumber and plywood. Provide solid support along the entire length of infeed, planer, and outfeed.
There are other good ideas out there. It is good to see you make progress.
Steve Pippins
Snipe
Reel,
Perhaps the snipe is not an issue if you bought the boards long enough to trim the ends off with a skil saw? I read your post, and my first thought was put the planer on the floor of the garage and bolt it down if need be. Then you can make supports on either side that wont move either. Kind of a pain, but for 3 sections it is not bad. Good deadlifting/gym workout eh?
Best to ya
Morgan
Progress!
June 20--
After 2 weeks of waiting-- the wife wanted to work on the flowerbeds and front of our property, which translates to manual labor for yours truly-- I got a full day in the shop today and finally got to take a second attempt at planing the three sections.
My first pass, this time using the concrete floor for a base-- was a completes disaster. The wood got halfway through the planer, and the planer tipped forward off it's base. So, not to be deterred, I drilled 2 holes into the floor, sank anchors into my garage floor, and bolted the planer to the floor! It didn't eliminate all the snipe, but it certainly was less than before.
I ran the three sections through, removing 1/32 at a time. It took three passes to get clean surfaces, which meant moving the 100 pound sections 9 times. I got one heck of a workout.
I will have to do some hand planing to smooth out the snipe at the ends. But I'm almost ready for final glue up. I need to hand plane the edges a bit so they meet evenly. There's a slight bow on two of the seams. Easy enough, but it will have to wait for another day.
I removed the anchors from the floor after planing, and, thankfully, my wife can park in the garage again for the first time in months.
If I have enough time to hand plane this week, I should be good to go on the glue up this weekend. I just have to be mindful on the glue to not make a huge mess, because we're handplaning from here on out. Then we're on to dog holes and vises.
It's been a journey.
Journey, some great albums....
Reeltime, I have enjoyed the process. Looking good there. I will remember when I build my new bench this fall, I will rough cut the top pieces a foot longer, then cut of the snipe at the ends when they are glued up as whole.
Today being the longest day of the year, gives plenty of heat in Phoenix, so shop time is nill. Drawing time and planning is up!
Morgan
parking?
Parking a car in a woodshop? Isn't that blasphemy? ;-)
Like Morgan, I've enjoyed sharing your journey, and it's cool to see the bench so close to completion.
Bench top
Reeltime, it is good to see you back at work on the bench.
Commercial table saw / jointer combinations used to be common but I do not see them much anymore. Every so often, you will see one on Craig's list. The ones I have seen are small by today's standards. The saw was 8" and jointer4".
For trimming the ends of the bench top flush, I would recommend using a straight edge guide and circular saw or router.
Steve
I've contemplated cutting the ends in the way you described, but I'd have to do a cut on each side, because the top is 4" thick.
I'd love to get it in one pass, if possible. So I'm thinkin' handsaw (kidding!).
Actually a Rocker guy said to consider the Festool saber saw. He said he saw and then tried himself, doing a 4+ inch cut through maple. An expensive investment, though for a single use.
I don't know of many 4" router bits. I do own a router powerful enough for the job, if I can find a bit that long-- I have a monster Milwaukee router with a 3.5 HP motor.
Any thoughts?
Build a jig
Reeltime, for 4" thick I would use a router from both sides. You will have to build a jig with edge guides that are in the same plane. This is similar to the technique used for table top breadboard ends. There was a FWW article recently on how to build the jig.
reliving the recent pass
Reeltime,
I've really enjoyed reading your adventures in the shop as it has allowed me to relive my experiences of my earlier woodworking days, especially your descriptions of painstakingly glueing things together only to find later that something has gone awry and for the life of you, you cannot figure out what happened. I laughed aloud when you described your consternation at finding your perfectly glued top wasn't so perfect. I have been there so many times...take heart in the fact that as you become more experienced these things won't happen as often. (So if you build ten more benches the last will be nearly perfect...I am still amazed that I can find new ways to mess up).
You might also minimize contact with your neighbor...he sounds like a "practical" woodworking...you know the type, can't figure out why anyone would spend X number of dollars on a handplane, chisel, hand saw, etc when you could get a perfectly good hand plane, chisel, hand saw, etc for Y$ at the local flea market, yard sale, junkyard, abandoned house, etc..and he can probably build stuff you are dreaming about with an old Craftsman hammer, nails, screwdriver, jigsaw, and his father's old Disston all propped up on two sawhorses with a couple of boards clamped on......"overkill", I love it..
Neil, still pretty much a novice but with a little more experience and a whole lot more scars
Moving Along
Reeltime,
Those rose bushes shure can mess up one's hands... hehehe, I bet the missus owes you some now!
A couple of thoughts. To keep the pieces aligned, use a wood jorgensen clamp at the ends so you can align the 3 major pieces. Seems that any time I use clamps for the endge they slip and move a bit. A couple of cauls across the width would also prevent miss alignment. A caul should have a convex side, which is placed against the bench top. Those two things will maintain alignment.
Now for cutting the sides and ends straight. Your skillsaw should work fine. You will need a panel guide, just a simple 1/4" plywood base with a very straight 1by2 screwed and glued on top. That and few passes with the plane and you have it made.
How to lift the beastie around... I have a hook in the ceiling, that I can attach a chain hoist to. Pad the top, attach a strap and you can lift it and then turn it. Did that with Chris on a very hefty piece of bubinga. Now be sure that your joist or rafter overhead can hold the load of the table, in my case I have a glue lam beam overhead, but lifting 300 lbs is not much when it comes to dead load calcs.
Now you get the upper body workout eh? Scrub plane across the with, then a jointer down the length.
Morgan
I cannot BELIEVE that I didn't think of that one, in fact any freaking clamp would have worked, when you think about it.. Ugh... It would have been so easy, too! Which I suppose is what makes it a great tip, and where were you Sunday night when I was doing all of this? Ha ha.
A skillsaw won't plunge to 4 inches, will it? I don't think mine has a blade that large. However I have an excellent straight edge guide system I picked up from Rockler when they were on sale.
For planing down the misalignment- I went straight for the L-N instead of my trusty old Buck Brothers. The L-N with a fresh edge went through most of it in about an hour. I'm getting REALLY good at sharpening. I still have more cleanup to do and I should plane the bottom of the bench top also. 100 degree heat this week in L.A. means I'm going to be getting a killer workout.
One other note-- All of the workbench books I read said to alternate grain patterns, which I did-- but planing is a lot more difficult when each board's grain in the butcher block style is in a different direction. Just Sayin'...
Thanks again everyone.
Planning Planing...
Isn't that a great play on words... Planning Planing! ha
You have your mind into roses, and the smell of manure has left you with some brain cell loss I can tell. No problem, a few days of nice wood shavings will cleanse the brain. My brain.... is in phoenix, where I am riding my bike in the pleasant 104 degree temps for 3 to 4 hours at a time. I can't even find my shop, let alone get something done.
Chris Schwarz book on benches mentions several times to allign with the grain so you can plane it in one direction only. He levels his tops by first planing a 45 degree pass across the bench, then switches sides and goes 45 degrees across the bench. All with the grain. When he gets complete shavings, he then planes lengthwise with the grain. Works well and I level my table tops that same way.
Yes, to trim the sides with a circular saw you need to flip it over. But that should be a no brainer and with a saw guide it will work nicely.This video shows it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH5dW-QcgeI&feature=fvw Still a bit of planing to smooth it out.
Now... about that tail vise... check out Schwarz first before hand. This months Pop Woodworking has an interesting article as well.
Now enjoy that heat, but I will trade you my 118 for a 100 anyday! ha Morgan
Plane, Sand and Cut
July 27--
O.K. Gang-- We had a busy few weeks trying to save the newly planted rose bushes in the yard-- which-- finally-- I've begun having some success.
In between, I started the expensive process of leveling the top, and trimming the edges of the top, which became even more expensive. More on that in a second.
Planing wasn't working. For the butcher block glue up, I'd alternated my grains, because one of my workbench books said to do so to avoid warping. Don't try this at home! Glue your boards in the same grain direction, you'll thank me for it later.
As you might surmise, every time you push the plane, you get a clean board, and a bunch of tearout on the adjacent board. Even with a #4, I couldn't avoid the tearout. Plan B-- Sand. I two have a decent random orbital sanders, but this job needed to take a full 1/32 off the entire top to get the sections even. I'd still be sanding, if I used a normal orbital sander. So I bought the Festool Rotex and a pile of 40 grit disks.
Expensive, but it proved to be the right tool for the situation. The Festool chewed through the top in no time and I had the surface in good shape. I'd rather have planed, but that ship sailed. I switched back to the normal sanders-- yes, you can use the Rotex in ROS mode, but it's not great. Dedicated sanders do a better job at eliminating swirl patterns, and they're much quieter and easier to handle. I worked the grit system up to 400 and called it a day.
Next up-- trim the ends. My only skill saw is an underpowered Ryobi, and the motor caught on my guide rail-- that saw wasn't going to work. Plus we're talking nasty hard Maple. So I did some research-- always dangerous-- and from what I read, my Bosch jig saw might be a good answer. I'd read mixed reviews online, it has plenty of power, but figured an attempt with a 5" blade and a Rockler guide is a lot cheaper than a new circular saw. I ordered long blades, and when they came, I lined up the straight edge with a square and started a test cut. It looked good. Not especially smooth, but close enough to plane down. I lined up for the big cut. about a foot through the cut, I looked under the table and saw the blade had drifted. GREAT. It had taken off on an angle and was cutting too much into the bench.
Plan C-- Frustrated as I was, I just wanted to be done with the top-- So I ordered a Festool TS75 with a guide rail. $600 bucks (ish). I set up the guide rail, clamped it down and the tool cut like a hot knife. Then I flipped the top and, again using a square, I lined up the edge guide with the previous cut and made the matching cut from the bottom.
Nearly a perfect cut. Less than a millimeter off, a few swipes from my block plane and the edges were done. The Festool was expensive, but it had plenty of power. No burning or splintering. Done.
So now I'm back to hand planing-- trying to level the bottom as best I can. The bottom doesn't have to be finished perfect-- just even. Planing across the bottom is no problem, I just can't run the plane lengthwise.
Quite a week.
Tear Out
Reel Time,
Sounds like a tough weekend there.... Never easy when a plan goes awry.
I am not sure on your plane, I think you have Bevel Up Jack correct? If so, did you try to use a 50 degree angle on the edge. I have two blades for mine, one a normal angle and one set for 50 degree. I find if I set it up sharp and go for thin shavings it will not chip out maple going against the grain, but it is slow due the fact that I am taking thin shavings. Also using a plane with a slight radius on the blade does wonders as well. Using it on a 45 degree cross hatch gets every thing flat and usually does not cause a great deal of tear out. Follow with thin shavings and the high angle blade. Trust me there is a way.... Perhaps the bottom for test results.
Buying the TS75 will be awsome for years to come, you will come to enjoy it any time you have to cut sheet goods up. The extended guides that work to 8 ft are great in a small shop with no dedicated space for a large Sliding TS or table surrounds on a TS. Cutting 16 or 12" widths the full 8' length is easy with the Festool.
Best AZMO
Good to hear from you.
My jack is a bevel down L/N #5. I have a bevel up #7 jointer from Veritas but that plane gives me a lot of struggle, even with the steepest of iron angles. I don't know why-- maybe the low center of gravity causes me to lose feel on the thing or something, but my experience with even my cheap bevel down planes has always been better than with bevel ups.
Having just thought about it, I could level the bottom anyway with the plane- not really caring if there's tearout where you can't see it. I just can't believe I got suckered into the alternating grains in the first place-- and more importantly, I should have posted here BEFORE gluing up so you all could whip me into shape.
Milk Spilt.
I just got my bench grinder-- gift from a relative.. I'm anxious to add a curve to my irons. Any suggestions on how to get a 9 degree arc? Schwartz shows a jig he created, but doesn't explain how he made his jig.
Festool really makes good stuff, don't they? That rail system is dead accurate. My cuts were under a millimeter apart, just using a square.
NOTE-- I should mention-- the reason I tried using the Bosch jig saw in the first place was that I already owned it. In my exhausted state last night, I realize I left that fact out.
More photos to come....
Videos
Reel,
Not sure if you have the upgrade to this site. But check out these videos. https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=29711
I don't think you need a jig, really just draw a nice radius line using a compass on the blade. I have seen others who have made a wood template to trace lines with as well. Grinding is easy enough by hand, and if you have a Veritas guide and the camber roller you have it made. I have a hard time keeping the blade flat on the heel and toe, so I like the guide. I can chew gum at the same time that way. Until you put a camber on your blades, it is hard to really know about that #7.... Being able to adjust the blade out in small cuts makes a world of difference.
Now about that grinder.... If it is 3600 speed you need to be very careful. I have a 1800 speed with the white alum oxide wheels and it does not burn steel. The high speed grinders with the grey wheels are great for mucking about with grinding bolts down etc, but a slow speed is much better. Check Harbour Frt for a cheap usable version.
AZMO, enjoying the journey.
The bench grider i got as a gift does have a velocity potentiometer, but it doesn't tell me what the speed is, I'll just have to wing it and pay attention to the way the steel responds to the stone. I'll definitely start with a slower setting.
I realize I haven't posted a finished top shot-- I'll have to upload one. It's quite nice and I've impressed the neighbors passing by my garage-- er-- workshop.
irons with no fire
One of the best investments I've made for sharpening plane irons was the Veritas Mk II honing guide:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=51868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1
combined with the Camber Roller Assembly. Although some experts indicte that a camber can be introduced by alternating extra pressure on the sides of the iron while sharpening, I never got the hang of that.
As to the Festool thing, yes, they make very nice (albeit expensive) tools. I bought the smaller TS55 a few months back, and was very impressed. The only problem is that I'm now undergoing treatment to avoid coming down with a full-blown case of Festoolitis. ;-)
August 10-- Made some real
August 10--
Made some real progress in the last week. First -- some of my bench hardware arrived. Two twin screw Veritas vises, one for the end (I've opted away from anything fancier on the end-- a full length tail vise will do the job-- more on that in a second). I almost went with a quick release vise on the front-- but then I decided against it.
Flipped the bench top and planed off and on for a week. Got a few blisters, but in the end the bottom is finished.
I decided to put a skirt around the bench. Not much overhang-- the skirt is desirable for several reasons. First, it will sooth my anxiety for having to trim 2" off the bench's length from trying to cut the ends straight with the jig saw. Second, when I cut the end with the Festool, it revealed an ugly knot in the end grain that will haunt me. Third, having looked at a bunch of benches-- I miss having exposed dovetails on the corner, and then fourth-- I want the opportunity to learn how to dovetail.
Making a trip to Anawalt (they really love me there by now)... I picked up the necessary wood for the apron and vise jaws.
I jointed the wood as best I could on my router table, but my lack of a jointer is really becoming apparent. I'm going to have more sanding in my future to get the edges smooth.
Rather than jump in and try dovetailing on expensive maple, I started with a douglas fir 2x4. I cut a single dovetail to join two short lengths-- and boy am I glad I experimented! I realized, I kinda don't know what I'm doing.
I built a wedge for the top of my bandsaw to make the 10 degree bevels-- and soon realized I needed to, at long last, install the free Powermatic riser that came with the saw, in order to allow enough clearance to actually make the cuts. With the help of my wife, the riser kit was installed in about 45 minutes.
My friend and I cut a single pin compound dovetail-- a really complex joint that looks pretty and impressive, but doesn't hold very well, and is next to impossible to make a perfect right angle, or even replicate. We were pretty pleased that we figured out how to do one, until late that night I realized-- we'd really messed it up.
The next morning I woke up and figured I'd give it another try-- a double-pin standard 10 degree bevel-- I didn't finesse it at all, I just wanted to figure out the geometry of the joint. The result is the picture. Doing this on a larger scale was going to be fun! I marked and set up to cut the pins. I needed to add support to the length of the board with my roller stand if I was going to have any hope of making a good cut on the 80+ inch boards.
I laid out the dovetails in pencil, then set about cutting pins.. Unfortunately, the bandsaw riser kit came with one 3/8" 105 blade, 10TPI, inappropriate for hard maple. I need a 5/8" blade or wider with 3 tpi, hooked. But I had the time, and not the patience-- so I pretty much wasted the blade, burning it to hell as it cut. A small piece of dovetail pin corner chipped off and will have to glued before finishing. More blades are on order of the proper cutting blade.
Then I chopped out the space between the pins, old school with a chisel.
I hand cut the waste off the shoulders using my L/N crosscut tenon saw. Getting quite good at making a square end cut.
For finishing the pins, I stuck sandpaper to a thin wedge of wood using spray elmer's glue. A neat trick because it gives a very thin edge, yet enough heft at the thickest point to sand straight. The pins are looking good!
One question on vises for the panel-- from the looks of it-- I'm going to have to drill through the cross members on the base to install the long screw on the end vise. Is this normal? Some other way I should consider?
Pushing on!
Dovetails
Look very nice there Reel, the pictures are of your tails not pins though. Good thing you put the tails down the long board and the pins on the short end peices. It is hard to cut pins on a 7' long board, I never practice that skill....
Mounting the twin screw on the end. Yes you did need to have clearance for the holes and it is a critical measurements, as is square to the hole on the xy axis. Get this right. I was on vaction this week to Vermont, and had a chance to read on the flights and was thinking of you and the tail vise. Check ou the new Lie Nielsen version, complete with the wooden parts as well. I know you have wanted a tail vise and that might be an interesting option, and return one of your twin screws. Nice review of the product... http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1481 If you make your own wooden part you could use round holes for the dogs, and their in house part comes with square holds and retrofitting squares to you top would be fun.
I will post some pictures of the Wall of Planes in another post later.
AZMO
I use a local wood supplier, otter tail lumber, who will glue up large pieces for tops (and more), sanded to 150 and perfectly flat. I have done this myself, but the small extra cost, and the fact they have the large equipment to do the job seems to be the best route for me. I glued up 370 redwood pieces for a town house project, and tried to plane and sand them to be finished but, I got smart and took them to Thompson Hardwood, now Otter Tail, and in 15 minutes, with their help feeding the timesaver, I was done. It cost 1.00 a minute to use their services.
August 17
Spent the weekend cutting the rest of the "tails" (thanks for setting me straight!) of the bench surround. Everything is in house now to finish this bench. And tonight I cut my first set of pins.
I got the way to do this from a workbench plan I read about, so I don't know if it's traditional or not. I created a ramp on a 10 degree incline using MDF, a 2x4, and some screws, then planed the 2x4 down until it read 10 degrees on my angle scale.
I cut a blade slot with the bandsaw, then reversed the incline jig onto the bandsaw table, supporting it with MDF and clamps.
I marked the pins by lining up the tails I cut and outlining them with a pencil. As long as I stay inside the line, all should be good.
I cut the slots for one side of the pins, then flipped the incline jig and cut the other pin angles.
Using the mallott and chisel, I whacked away the leftover.
I'll need to do some creative sanding to get a good fit, but I think I'm in the ballpark. I have three more sets to go, then dry fit everything in advance of another glue-up.
I reserve the right to say, "What the hell was I thinking" next week when nothing fits. From what I hear, this double dovetail design ain't easy, so I'm sure to run into a snag. Or two.
Decided to stick with the twin-screw tail vise. I can't think of a situation where I would say-- gee I wish I'd gone with the end vise. However I can think of a few instances where I'd say-- gee-- I could have used a long end-vise today-- like putting together cabinet doors or something. I'm still a little iffy on how to mount the twin screws without boring through the cross member support for the top.
Aug 20-- Quite excited by
Aug 20--
Quite excited by what happened last night-- I did a dry fit of my dovetails on the right end of the bench-- and they both fit remarkably well. Very little planing will be needed, and that's got me in a pretty good mood. I have the other end of the bench still to cut the pins on-- but I'm going to be in a good mood for a while because the joints came out so well.
Celebrate the victories.
I still think I'm going to be drilling through my cross member supports to fit the tail vise. I don't see how I can accommodate the screws any other way...
Dovetails look great!
Nice looking joints reeltime, very nice. The hard part is getting all 4 sets done, so they wrap. That last one can be tricky, so be happy now, but watch out for the hammer sneaking up on you...
In looking back over your pics of the base, I am pretty sure you will need to drill holes through them for the end vise. Better to use nice holes than a notch for strength. The front vise depends on where you mount the vise and how that navigates around the cross member, or perhaps it misses it completely. Be sure that the rods are at least 20" apart for one of the vises. If you ever work on a case side that needs dovetails or hand work, dropping the material between them works better.
Morgan
Ah, victories
Nice job on the joints. Plus, the nice thing about such victories is that they tend to become repetitive.
End Vise
Reeltime,
Some pics of my web frame bench. Holes through the webs to accomodate the vise. Missed the mark by a bit, and had to redrill. I have some PVC pipe fitted into the holes, but I did not take a pic of that. The bench is 3' wide so I have lots of room between the rods to insert drawers etc for dovetails. I find the Veritas vise to be slow moving and requires some effort to move crank it. Moving it open and closed to work with dog holes is a chore
The LN vise is interesting. All other tail vises have fixed plates to guide the vise movement. The LN uses set screws to adjust the fit, and as wear and tear comes along they can be adjusted to keep the slop out. A much simpler mechanism and set up as well IMO, Large screws to hold it in place and a hollowed out vise jaw. I like it.
Holding a screen door to the side is pretty simple with a face vise at one end but you will need a dead man on the other to clamp to. Or a stand alone deadman.
My next bench... hmmm.... Roubo front vise which is what I have used most of my life coupled with sliding dead man for support on long boards. LN tail vise for sure as well. Perhaps when the weather breaks and my garage is not 125 degrees, until then I just don't enjoy the shop much.
Morgan
Lookin Good
Reeltime,
It is coming along nicely. Your dovetails look great to me. Trust me when you sand and finish the small gaps will fill in a bit with an oil finish anyway. It is a workbench after all and not your dining room table! The last side will be the fun part, hopefully you did a dry fit and test run. It doesn't take much to make it hard to seat the side home and not have gaps etc. Let us know how it went.
Morgan
Hi Morgan,
I did do a dry fit on the skirt, then again after I glued the two ends in place-- a little extra sanding helped on the pins. Once the tails and pins started going together-- but not loose-- I glued. I'll do another dry fit on the last side and sand the pins as necessary. I just don't want to force anything and break the tails off. Then you'd see a grown man throw a tantrum-- not pretty.
It's definitely a work bench-- I've already got a few dings-- but I always say "character-- it's gotta have character!"
BTW my wife already wants me to build a butcher block countertop for the kitchen. Easy baby... easy.
BTW
Well it is OK if the spousal unit wants something nice from you. It's when the distant cousins find out that the Trouble Starts...;>)
Now, as long she does not drive into the garage and ding both the bench and the car things will be fine. I have a reel hunch the car would not fair well tangling with 300 lbs of rock maple. The dang bench would just have a paint rub on it eh?
Did you see the new tail vise from Lee Valley. Have not found anyone who has used it but it might have possibilities. Even Chris has not test driven one at the store he works at. I will be interested to see how the twin screw works out for you. I find mine to be a bit heavy to use and slow in action. The quick release idea is a winner for sure on a tail vise. Front vise tends to be used from 3/4 stock and up and does not move in and out as much so the twin works great there. You might check it out, and I will bet you could return one of the twins, and do and exchange.
Morgan
As the saying goes-- happy wife-- happy life. :) But she's not parking in the garage yet-- she had a few weeks in there before I started the top-- but evicted since phase II started.
Talk about humbling-- did you see the 7 day workbench project on the FWW front page? Theirs is so NICE!! Haha.. Mine is 7 MONTHS to a workbench-- only if I hurry! They make it look SO easy...
I've looked at the tail vise-- other than the time it takes to unscrew-- I can't see where the small dog would be an advantage over a full tail vise with dogs across the jaws. I suppose you avoid racking-- but that's solved with a spacer-- things to ponder, I suppose. I was really really tempted by the Lie Neilsen vises-- but these are here and I hate returning stuff unless completely necessary-- also would like a 2nd handle option on the L/N.
I've bought some massive massive jaws for the vises-- 8 inch tall stock and the full width of the bench. It's gonna rock. I'm even going to do a round over on the corners with the bandsaw. Gotta get the top planed down first and get those dogs drilled.
Last night I fit the 2nd length-- ready to glue tonight, if I'm off work early enough. Good times.
September 25-
Last night I glued up the last of the skirt. Relatively uneventful-- it actually went easier than the first side. Today, off came the clamps and I began leveling the skirt with the rest of the bench. I'll get some work in tomorrow, but the temperature popped back up in L.A. and it's been in the hundreds.
Once this phase is done, I'm going to tackle the first vise. Probably do the front vise first, because that involves less work, because I don't have the support to deal with. The end vise may need to bore the hardware through the cross member on the base-- not looking forward to that...
September 27--
Yesterday I got a lot further than expected. The temperature-- a balmy 111 degrees. But it's a dry heat.
The skirts were sitting 1/16 proud of the rest of the top-- so my task was-- make it perfect. No problem, right?
Time was short-- so I pulled out the #5 Jack and started on the surrounding boards-- but my iron is at the tale end of a sharpening cycle-- so tearout was the order of the morning. I planed down 1/32nd, but dared not go further because tearout was going to cost me that last 32nd, and I didn't want the new skirt to wind up shorter than the rest of the top!
So I turned to the Festool rotex and 50 grit. What a tool! It tore the excess wood off in about a half an hour, and left me time to start a grit cycle on the random orbit sanders.. I got to 180 grit before I had to stop. (We had a play date with friends at the LA County fair- Which was not fun in the heat!)
I guess you could say the day marks the beginning of the end. A few more finer grit passes and I'll be good to go on the vises. I need to figure out the geometry of the vises with the dog holes-- so everything lines up-- and it's probably a good time to re-read the instructions on vise installation.
Here's where I'm at a disadvantage. Morgan has this awesome sub-top base to contain all of his vise hardware-- I'm goign to be building on the bottom of the bench.
Read and Reread
My hats off to you, it is terrible hot here as well. Gosh I am sick of it all! 105 in my garage is just no fun at all.
I don't care what they say about guys not needing directions.... Reread the manual several times! Those twin vises are a bit fussy. They really like the back nut to be very square to each other. Any amount that is out, will add friction and issues. Also the dimension of the front vise holes and its relation to those same nuts is critical. Had some adjustments on mine, that were not fun since it is housed inside the bench. Hopefully your skirt is long enough that the nut will fit and have the 4 bolts to hold it in place and you dont' have to make anything but a hole!
Reall you just need to get a sharpening system together. It takes me 5 minutes to redo the edge with two water stones. Lots of discussion here, but the main point is having a primary bevel, then a micro bevel that can be resharpened quickly with very very little material removed. That and a quick strop and you have it made. Probably takes less time than to get the sander out!
Now take a straight edge across the bench, is it flat? Use some winding sticks to check if is flat and level without a twist to it. Sanders are great but they really don't put a good reference to the bench. The Jack will get things very flat and true, and a few tear outs on the bench are less important that a true flat surface. This bench is so NICE, it deserves to be flat and true!
Pray for a break from the Heat and send over the hill to Phoenix will ya!
Morgan
Thanks, I'm feeling really good about the bench. The dual dovetail corners really add a great touch to the bench, and I got my three inches back in length, that I lost during the "Great Jigsaw Disaster of 2010".
Planing-- Problem with sharpening for me is water-- i have to haul the water down to the garage-- and I was pressed for time.. and a little lazy from the heat. Ha!
For my vises-- I bought wood for both the inner and outer jaws. 8 inches wide 8/4 stock-- so if I get the inner jaw attached to the bench well-- the outer jaw will match-- then I just need to add support blocks for the screws under the bench-- if I'm reading the directions correctly. Big suckers, those jaws.
I still haven't solved the cross member issue for the tail vise. I really don't want to drill through my beautiful base cross member! I will find a solution somewhere....
You should feel good about that bench!! Better every time you use it as well.
So pick up a 5 gallon jug with a spout on it and mount set in the corner. Then you will have it close by. I don't have water in the shop either, and the Spousal unit does not like me tracking through the house with stuff on the shoes! Works well for me.
You really want the inner jaw of the front vise to be flush to the apron of your bench. Think about clamping an 8' board along the bench. If it is flush you can clamp the end to hold it steady. Not going to happen without a spacer then...
The tail vise should reach clear across the end of the bench. I think that is your plan. That should work great.
Drill some nice holes with a forstner bit and don't get any tearout by using a backer and it will look very nice. Not an issue, except you need to take the top off to do it!! Oh my aching back indeed!
It's been fun reading your progress on the bench. For anybody who is reading or wondering, or maybe might care, I had my bench top custom built at Baird Brothers in Ohio. I went 92 inches long, 36 inches wide and 3.50 inches thick. Made from Hard Country Maple. Weights in at 320 pounds and cost $520.00 shipped to Nevada. I would do nothing different. It is the best, money could buy. I love it. With the base, vises, and apron, the finished project is 487 lbs. i really turned out great.
November 23-- Yeah, I
November 23--
Sorry it's been a while since updating-- yeah, I thought I'd be long finished by now, but life keeps getting in the way of quality woodworking time.
When last we left off this little saga, I was about to install a twin screw Veritas vise. So I started with sanding smooth the beautiful dual dovetail skirt with my favorite new power tool (next to the bandsaw), the Festool Rotex sander.
Wouldn't you know it? I put a low spot on the skirt-- right where the vise was to go! So after contemplating how to fix the error, I opted for old school-- my bevel up jointer plane.
Now the Veritas jointer plane has been a struggle for me since I'd acquired the thing. I couldn't get consistant shavings from it. But a few weeks back, Lie Nielsen had an AWESOME event in Los Angeles, and I got some expert advice on sharpening bevel up planes. Great folks at L/N. Turns out-- I wasn't putting a steep enough edge on the jointer iron. Using an angle finder, I was able to set the bevel at 50 degrees and get a radical edge on the jointer and ever since, it's worked like a charm.
Back to my issue of the dip in the skirt-- I can't possibly lift the top on edge at this point-- it's well over 400 pounds, so I'm having to plane sideways... not too comfortable, and very slow going. I am removing the dip a little at a time, though.
The photos with this entry are of my solve for the front twin-screw. I wanted a MASSIVE jaw. So to accomodate that wish, I've built a backer for the bottom of the vise. It will screw and glue to the front edge and bottom of the bench and give me a good solid surface to drill the twin screws through.
I can't put it all together until I get that skirt leveled out (no more sanding!). But I will get there. Boy-- finishing this thing is taking way way longer than I thought.
Better late than never
Reel time
Nice work around for your twin screw. One down the right side and one down the left should work fine. Will you have to remove the top to bore the hole through the streacher on the right side? Over time the front jaw will sag a bit, having a method of installing a wear plate behind the backer to counter this would be a good idea. A simple block with a some lexan or pvc pipe can make a difference.
REALLY nice to hear you got that LA plane working. I have two blades for mine, high and normal. Makes it easy to switch them out when I need to. A normal angle works so well on cherry and less figured woods, and that high anble on the figured stuff. Cheaper than sand paper as well!! Get the veritas sharpening guide and setup tool. Consistent results for me, and while I can hand sharpen, consistancy works for me.
later Morgan
Hi Morgan-
When I was at the L/N show, they showed a neat jig for sharpening with wooden stops for the different plane angles for easy setup in the honing guide. I'd love to make on of those. Their jig included a bench hook, a place for the sharpening stones and it looked really handy.
I'm going to hold off on the end vise for now. I have some veritas bench clamps that will suffice in dog holes should the need arise. I just don't have it in me to bore holes through the cross supports at this time. If I can finish the front vise and get the thing leveled off, add the dog holes, that should suit my needs. In looking at your plans, I could theoretically add a sub-structure at a later date to house the end vise and eliminate the need for drilling holes through the cross brace.
Oh and great news! I have a jointer on the way-- Merry Christmas to ME! It's a Powermatic 54A. My wife saw the deals on Tool King this weekend-- shook her head and said-- "Well-- if that's what you want...."
I think starting projects with square stock will save me a TON of time. Thinking back to the hours spent squaring those legs on the 45" tall bench with my crappy Buck Brothers jack plane... Boy I've come a long way!
Now if I can just get that dip out of the skirt... more shop sweat awaits today...
Check this out
Michael,
You should check out this forum. Lots of fun and most of the gang is there. http://forums.delphiforums.com/burl
It is like Knots used to be, pictures in the middle of the work. Samson doing posts on turning etc.
Morgan
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