Hello Everyone,
I’ve been in construction (remodeling) for 25+ years and finally got around to redoing my own home. When we bought it, I told my wife it was going to be a ten year project. We bought an 85 year old farm house built by a lettuce farmer on 3 acres.
We have slowly chippd away at the peripheral things and 15 months ago started the major remodel. At the get go a friend made a suggestion which we considered and went for, raising the house 2 feet (already had a 6′ basement) and looking back would have made the same decision even though it blew the budget.
So that’s the long story getting around to my topic. All is done but the kitchen. We had planned to buy Medallion cabinets in quarter sawn oak, mission style, with as many bells and whistles as we could afford. Due to raising the house I’m faced with living with the old kitchen (it’s one of those beyond description – functional but … well … remember the lettuce farmer part 🙂 ) or building the cabinets myself.
Question is I am not certain where to start. I know there are a couple wood companies in Portland who have or can get any species needed. I am well tooled for remodeling but not cabinet making. Best but not least, have never built cabinets. Do I want to build traditional ‘boxes’ like the big boys, or maybe attempt euros? Should I forget the typical 3″ multiple and build to ‘my’ space? And what about doors and drawers … probably the scariest part of the whole idea. Wanting a mission style helps but still am undecided on door joinery.
My apologies for the long winded intro …. any pointers, thoughts, suggestions will be appreciated.
TIA
Buz
Edited 7/8/2005 9:40 am ET by buz
Replies
Hi buz ,
IMO Euro style cabinets require more fool proof joinery and a bit more specialized skills . So my advice is to make face frame cabinets , also may lend them selves better to Mission or Shaker styles . I am in So. Oregon and do business with Hardwood Industries , they have a few outlets near you as well . I highly recommend them and have relied on them to take care of my needs for the last 25 years give or take. There is at least one or two companies that make doors in your area as well. You may want to consider building the cabinets yourself but having the doors made . Keep the edge detail simple . They kind of ding you on the drawer faces and they can add up quickly . Unless the drawer faces are frame and panel to match the doors , make them your self and save a bit of cash . I would measure and design the kitchen based off of what appliances you will use and the actual size of the room , forget the 3" multiples , that is for modulars . You will not need filler strips . I use a lot of Rift sawn Red Oak , it has quite a bit of Quarter Sawn in it usually and costs a buck or so a foot less . Rift is sort of a Vertical grain Oak with character . The most important part to assure the kitchen coming out right is careful and accurate measurements and a solid plan worked out on graph paper to make sure it all lays out correctly.
I'd be happy to help in any way just ask
good luck dusty
"I'd be happy to help in any way just ask"I'm in a similar situation. I have a bit of woodworking and design experience but am a bit intimidated by drawers, etc. I'm lucky that the father of one of the kids I coach works for a company that builds furniture and he is willing to help. My concern is tooling. I am purchasing a table saw and a router which I need for a small business (nothing to do with wood-working, ironically). I really don't want to stock up on other tools I'll only use for the kitchen.So other than a belt sander and an orbital sander, what other tools do I absolutely need? We are prefer the shaker style in clear Maple or hickory.A jointer obviously would help but can I justify the expense for one project? A wood store here in town carries pre-jointed wood but that's pretty expensive. Would a jointer pay for itself within a single kitchen project?
Even if the jointer won't pay for itself with that project, you can sell it when you are done. Say you eat 25% of the cost of the machine, I bet you still come out ahead, especially if the alternative is buying s4s lumber. If you buy used, you probably won't lose as much on the resale.
You could get real crazy and buy a shaper, too....
Chris,
I built many kitchens and furniture pieces without a jointer. A jointer's primary purpose is to create a square face on warped or twisted boards. Edge jointing can be easily accomplished on the TS. Assuming that you invest is a high-quality 40T combination TS blade ($100), ripped pieces should require minimal clean-up with a plane ($35 - $300) or scrapper ($10). Even with a jointer, you need to clean-up the edge to remove the very fine planer marks. If you plan on planing rough stock ($300 - $550) then you may find that you need the jointer but if you are purchasing surface and straight-lined wood then I think you can skip the jointer.
I would recommend a tenoning jig to cut the tenons for the door rails ($90) a large Lexan after-market router base to accommodate a shop-made gig to cut the mortises for the door stiles ($30), pipe clamps ($15 each - you can never have too many), and assorted router and drill bits. I would recommend a circular saw ($50) to rough-cut the sheet stock into manageable size and then cut to final dimension on the TS. A good medium machinist's square ($15 - $20) to true your TS blade and cabinet pieces should round our the basic tools to built mission or shaker style cabinetry.
It may not be the best tool configuration but it served me for many years. I now have more toys, (oops, I meant tools) but I could live without them and still produce a quality job using the tools listed above.
Doug
Edited 7/8/2005 3:58 pm ET by Doug
Hi Chris ,
Hickory , while surely a most beautiful wood is a rather challenging specie with all the grain switch and presents some difficulty machining for a shop that has all the tools , so you may want to go with the Maple . A good TS and a combo blade for ripping hardwoods as well as a finer toothed veneer cutting blade for all the plywoods that get used in a kitchen . You may want to skip the jointer and get a small planer , even a used one that works , you can sell it for no loss in most cases after you are done with it . You can rip all your hardwood a hair or two over size then run them through the planer on edge , thus largely eliminating the need for a jointer .A good belt sander and orbital finish sander and a good drill motor as well as some pipe clamps a jig saw will come in handy for cutting a few notches also. A finish nail gun will also be needed for shooting the cabinet boxes together and the drawers also .
hope this gives you a basic idea
dusty
Dusty,Thanks for the input. I had no idea I could turn boards upright through a planer.
Hey Chris ,
Are you just teasing me ? In regards to the question of jointer or planer , I will add this thought , an edge sander will remove saw marks and machine marks left from a jointer . We used to turn all of or face frame stock on edge and belt sand it after ripping on the TS . A jointer has its uses and strong suits . But an edge sander can make fast work of sanding the edges of drawer fronts , doors , shelves . and the drums on the ends often can be used for sanding an inside radius , I design my radius's around the drive drum on my edge sander when ever possible . I never design anything that I can't build ! Call me chicken , buk, buk .
dusty
I'm heading in the same direction. You might want to check out Marc Sommerfeld's DVD on making cabinets. I've seen him at woodworking shows and checked out his DVD and he sure makes it seem like a pretty straight-forward process.
Go to http://www.sommerfeldtools.com and take a peek.
Michael
Buz, I would suggest that you do a Goggle search on "kitchen cabinet construction" and review the various reference material. There are numerous excellent books on the subject that will take you step by step through the process including door and drawer options.
Euro or face-frame, the style and look is really up to you. Each has advantages and disadvantages. You can build beautiful cabinets with some basic tools and the secret ingredient: patience. There are many techniques that let you build stylish and functional drawers and doors that are easily within your reach. I would not let this aspect of the project scare you off. Don;t let the magnitude of the project overwhelm you: appraoch it in a series of tasks that you will tackle when it becomes time to do so. If you jump from building the boxes to worrying about what joinery to use for the doors, you will become needlessly frustrated.
Doug,
Apolgies for being a Dumbo, but trying to understand the lingo..
What is the difference between Euro and Face Frame?
Looking straight on, all you see of the Euro box are the edges of the sides, usually 5/8 - 3/4 inches thick. The doors are smooth slab doors that are usually overlay doors. The appearance is very seamless, sleek and modern. Euro cabinets are usually constructed from Melamine or a similar brand, which is a durable coated particle board. The edges are banding with a matching plastizcized tape that can be applied with a regular iron.
For face frames, again looking straight on, the box has pieces wider than the thickness of the sides attached to all four ends of the box forming a "frame" not unlike a picture frame. The doors can be slab, frame and panel or raised panel. This is the traditional cabinet style.
For the final nomenclature analogy, Dumbo has big ears and when viewed straight on looks not unlike Prince Charles :-)
With apologies to the Brits - couldn't resist it.
Edited 7/8/2005 4:33 pm ET by Doug
The prince and his trophy makes an atractive pair don't they?
Where do you fellas get your Melamine, the stuff I have seen at HD, or Lowes is simply terrible?
Any good lumber supplier will have Melamine or an equivalent brand. I have seen some Home Depots that carry the product. It comes in 4 x 8 sheets and in varying thicknesses down to whatever is passing for 1/4" these days. I know it comes in white and and off-white and there may be other colors.
Euro cabs look easy to build and they are as long as you use the right fasteners and hinges and build and hang them so they are perfectly square and plumb. There are special fasteners, glue and connectors for particle board construction and if you decide to go this route you want to study up on this method of construction. One of the benefits of melamine is that there is no finishing with exception of the drawers. The down side is that particle board is nasty stuff to work around - be sure and wear a dust mask; it quickly dulls your cutters and saw blades; it is very heavy and has few desirable structural qualities. When compared to wood however, it is very inexpensive. I don't mean to come off as a wood purist but, for me, there is little joy in building with particle board.
Willie, Doug did a good job of describing the difference, however you can put any kind of door that you choose on a euro or 32 mm system.One good reason for using the 32mm system is for the reason of getting more usable space from the cabinets. In a typical drawer stack, you can usually get two more inches of width per drawer. if the drawers are 2' deep, and there are 4 in the stack this comes to 1 1/3 sq. ft. in the bottom of the drawers, and none is lost behind the rails in the height of each drawer. Once you get the hang of using the system, you can go faster building them also.I am sure there are plenty of cabinetmakers that hate the thought of using melamine for cabinets. I know I was one myself. However I always hated finishing the inside of boxes. Taking a long shower in the cloud of solvents from a spray-gun is enough to challenge even the most hardy nervous-systems.Another huge benefit of using the euro system is that I can screw the drawer slides and hinge plates on the cabinet sides while they are laying on my workbench even before I build the cabinet box. At my age, it is a real pain to have to get down and reach into the back of the cabinets to screw slides on.And to the original poster. If you did not get the kitchen floor perfectly level, you should establish the height at the dish-washer, and don't forget that if your wife wants a new tile floor with hardibacker under it, that you will need 34 1/2" to get under the counter top.
Get some books on the subject and read up on what is involved. A good one is "Building Kitchen Cabinets" by Udo Schmidt (going off memory here). As long as you are tooled up for the job you can do it.
Check out Danny Proulx's book -" Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets". His method lets you have the best of both worlds, Euro and Face Frame. In his method you rip your stiles 1" wide and let them hang to the outside of the boxes. This allows the look of face frame with the use of Euro hardware. He uses boxes that are simply screwed together through the sides. On the end of each run, he adds an end cap. Super simple system that looks good. Try to buy your doors, as the wood to make them will cost as much as the doors will cost. For hinges, spend the extra money and get 150 degree. zero potrusion hinges. Don't order doors till you have boxes made. Tools you will need include - Table saw, Drill, Small planer, Drill Press( for hinge cups), 35 milimeter hinge bit. A Kregg Pocket Hole jig would be helpful to make frames. Many people try to use an 1 3/8" forstener bit for the hinge cups, but the carbide 35 milimeter bit now costs about twenty dollars and is worth every bit of it. On your cabinets, the only thing that will be seen is the doors and frames. Remember what Marc Adams said-" Your cabinets aren't going to be put in the Smithstonian".
This has been an incredible amount feedback and quick too. Thank you all for your thoughts.I guess I'm leaning toward the traditional face frame style, doesn't seem the euro style will really convey the 'Mission' look I want. Speaking of Mission, what's the major difference between Mssion and Shaker .... they appear very similar..I have installed countless kitchens out of the box (modular) so am quite familiar with plumb level square and and where to start. I have noticed in recent years, even some of the 'highend' cabinet makers are opting for PB boxes just because PB is so true. I have an ingrained despise for PB, but if some of the pros find it beneficial I think I should consider it. Any thoughts regarding this?If I were to abandon the modular system, where would that leave me if I decided to order doors..... wouldn't they need to be custom dimension for my custom dimension boxes? And that leads to how that would affect the overall price of this undertaking.I get catalogs from outfits like 'Rockler' all the time ... is there a better place to shop for the hardware for the kitchen (drawer slides, knobs, etc).You guys are great - I'll check back in the AM to see if I win any more opinion. :-)Buz
buz ,
In kitchen type cabinets Mission and Shaker styles are usually the same look for the most part . I used to kind of think that Shaker will have center stiles with two panels in each door but , Mission and what I do mostly the Craftsman style may all have a similar look . The Shakers have furniture designs that date way back , and IMO Shaker can be much lighter and more detailed then the Mission look . Here in the Pacific N.W. we have many great examples of Craftsman style homes built in the early 1900s , I have used some local homes as inspiration for design and balance . IMHO Particle board is smooth but not always flat , it is heavier , holds fasteners worse , and is not as good around moisture as plywood . I use Maple , Birch for the cabinet interiors in most kitchens . I would rather screw drawer slides to plywood . On 10 sheets for a kitchen you are looking at maybe $200. savings , use Rift sawn instead of Quarter Sawn and save $1 - 1.50 a foot , maybe save $200. help to offset the cost of the plywood . BTW when you buy your lumber ask for any shorts or narrows they may have in stock for even more savings . Custom made doors made in factories are sold by the square foot and there are no standard sizes . Look in your local yellow pages under Cabinet Hardware there are many distributors at your fingertips , buy direct if you can , see it touch it make sure it's right .
good luck dusty
Dusty is right that the difference between the two styles is not really that great. In general, I think Mission/Craftsman uses heavier (broader) rails and stiles, oak (quarter-sawn white oak for traditional furniture) is the predominant wood and the finishes tend to be darker. Shakers used what ever was available but maple, cherry poplar and pine seemed to most reflect the shaker style and used light or natural finishes. Shakers/Amish also did some very nice work with local walnut.
I get the feeling that the prospect of making the doors is not something you feel up to. Mortise and tenoned doors are easy to make and, to me, are the more enjoyable part of the project. The router jig to cut the mortises is easy and cheap and a $80 tenoning jig for the table saw makes the job go quickly with perfect results. The style you are considering use simple flat panel inserts so you need no specials tools to raise panels, It is a great project to master an essential joinery technique used in all furniture and cabinetry construction. My $.02 worth.
Enjoy the project. The kitchen is the heart of the your home and seeing those cabinets everyday will give you an immense sense of satisfaction.
Doug,Actualy I 'DO' want to make my own doors. Somehow ordering doors for my face frames brings up thoughts of mismatching colors, grains, etc.My reluctance is in buying and using tools I have yet to use. Not to mention brands and models. I hate it when I go out and buy a new tool only to find out a week later there is a better more efficient tool for my intended purposes.I see this project 'launching' me into a long suppressed desire to reproduce antique furniture. The things I have to learn up front is regarding wood species and how to choose the correct species for the unit I want to build. Then there's the matter of identifying species.........Looks like I'll be investing in quite a library of books to begin my new adventure.Thanks again for you feedback - it's really very helpful.Buz
I made my own kitchen cabinets using spectacular wood so I could look at it every morning. I made a separate carcase for the 4 inch high kickspace and divided it into sections with hardwood runners installed on the dividers. Then after all the big drawers were done I made shallow drawers out of the scraps and covered them with scraps of the hardwood used for the big drawer faces. These shallow drawers are great for hiding things like jewelry, coins, stamps, etc. They can be pulled completely out and I have boric acid behind them to kill roaches, etc.
I also made the cabinets and countertop wider than the standard 24 inches. My countertop is 29 inches wide. This allows more room under the sink for working on plumbing, behind the dishwasher, etc. On the surface it allows the mixer and toaster, etc to be against the backsplash with plenty of workspace in front of them. I used faceframes and overlay doors and drawer fronts, and Blum european style hinges made for faceframes. Think about what goes into the drawers. We made one drawer deep enough for the bread machine. It lifts right up on the counter and there is an electric plug for it in the kick space. Think about the finishing. If you can't spray lacquer, try water- based polyurethane, applied with a sponge brush, on a horizontal surface. I can just remove drawer fronts and doors and re-sand and refinish if they get damaged. We bought the quietest dishwasher we could find. That means it has more insulation wrapped around it. Therefore I made the space it fits in wider, and you can control the front appearance with the face frame.
I tell ya bud, When I did my first kitchen. Pictureing the layout in my mind was one of the hardest things to do.
So, I went to Blowes and HD and looked at their display.. Then I had them draw it up for me.
Then I used their dimensions to figure out how I was going to do mine.
I forgot to add. I built my own doors and drawers also. It wasnt that hard but It was very time consuming.
You can get videos from most bit manufacturers. marc Sommerfeld who sells CMT has a nice set and video as well as Woodline. Once you dee how it is done then you get into a "routine" and you'll see its not that hard.
If you are planning on the frameless euro type cabinets. Look at Paul Levines book and video Even if you not and going trad American.. he has good info on carcase construction. everything and does it in a way even I understood it. :>)
Good luck hope this helps
Good luck
Caution: This message may contain "For Official Use Only" (FOUO) or other "sensitive information" is not intended for non-official disclosure. Do not disseminate this message, except to persons who require it for official Breaktime purposes, without the approval of the individual originating this message or other authorized official of the Taunton University. If you received this message in error, please delete it.
Edited 7/11/2005 10:39 am ET by Sancho Ron
Buz -Like you, we bought our 'retirement project' and I promptly built a shop in which I planned (and am doing) all the cabinet and millwork for the re-construction. Again, like you, I've been in the building industry in one way or the other and lastly, like you, I'd never built a set of cabinets in my life. But don't let that stop you.I read everything I could lay my hands on, bored this group to tears I should imagine with questions and dove in head first.For my first attempt I'm rather proud although I find there's quite a learning curve. There are three major issues to deal with: planning, planning and planning. I wouldn't go with any kind of modular restriction but lay the boxes, drawers, etc. out to fit your space. We planned many many more drawers in our kitchen than one would ordinarily find. Plus I made all the drawers slightly shallower than standard which allowed me to get one more drawer in each bank of drawers than is usual as well. For the way we use a kitchen and the kinds of stuff we have in the cabinets, more drawers is better. Your mileage might vary.I couldn't find the exact kind of grain exposure I wanted on any stock milled ash so I bought 8/4 stock and milled it myself. Next lesson: finished lumber milled from kiln dried 8/4 stock must be seasoned before use. All the carefully jointed and sanded intersections of my face frames are now no longer so carefully jointed and sanded. One of life's lessons.Story sticks are invaluable for laying out all the different banks of cabinets. Make one for the vertical breakup of the drawers as well.If I can do it, I suspect anyone can............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Hey buz
I have a small furniture shop and have done a couple of kitchens to just keep things going and help pay the bills. I had the same questions as you before my first kitchen job.
It might mean a little lay out in time and cash, but I found it paid off .
I built two cabinets, one of each style, face frame and Euro style. Complete with doors of the style the customer wanted. They were really impressed and I soon discovered the differences in construction of both.
Ker.
Edited 7/10/2005 9:01 pm ET by robert35
Hello Robert,Interestingly, I think this project, building my own kitchen is going to evolve my shop into a furniture shop - antique reproductions in particular. I know I have a lot to learn but my age and body are not holding up to the stresses involved with my remodeling business and am looking for a lateral move of some sort ... naturally, keeping the bills paid is the primary MO. :-)Buz
I don't have time now to read the previous replies so forgive me if someone already said this.
Jim Tolpin's book on building kitchen cabinets is a good resource.
For your style building "traditional" cabinets with carcasses and face frames is much more appropriate than the Euro style frameless cabinets.
Since you are building them yourself, you'll get a more attractive look by ignoring conventional dimensions, heights, widths, and depths. For example, you could make the cabinet with a sink 2" higher so it will be less of a strain on your back (unless you or your family members are less than average height). If you have a drop in cooktop that could be a different height, too. But, if you are installing an appliance under the counter, such as a dishwasher, you pretty much have to go with standard height for that cabinet.
I built my kitchen and varied the dimensions from standard. I made the front of the cabinets with legs to give the suggestion of stand alone furniture as opposed to what they call "fitted" cabinets. Along one wall I varied the height, with the cooktop being in stone at standard height, and beside it the sink in solid surfacing on cabinets 2" higher. That not only looked nice but eliminated a joint between dissimilar counter top materials which would be a dirt catcher. On the opposite wall, the counter had a dishwasher, so the main cabinet was standard height, but the wall oven cabinet beside it stuck out about 3" further, again as an artistic contrast.
Here are some pictures. Sorry some are somewhat too large.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=13808.25
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-cookstalk/messages?msg=17942.35
Hello WayneThank you for the tip regarding Jim Toplin's book. I'll have a look around (Amazon and eBay) and see what I come up with. I'll be looking for a variety of books all dealing with wood, wood joinery, finishing, etc.One of my remodeling customers has enough faith in me to have asked me to reproduce a piece she found in an antique store (It had been sold). The point is, doing my kitchen will evolve my shop to finer work than the remodeling we have been doing for 25+ years.Any other thoughts, tips, suggestions are welcome as I feel like I'm going back to school in many ways.BuzEdit: Re-reading your post and I like the idea of customizing heights (in particular) of the cabinetry, thanks for that thought.
Edited 7/10/2005 10:05 pm ET by buz
Jim Tolpin's book is by Taunton, so you can buy it right here.
Buz-
My experience with cabinets is limited compared to the other responders to your questions. But, I had a tremendous water leak in the ceiling above my kitchen (and dinning room and living room!) due to a hot water heater in the attic. Don't run any water above the ceiling if you can help it. All the cabinets in the kitchen had to come out and although the insurance paid for a lot of the work, I did the kitchen floor and reinstalled the original kitchen cabinets. There were at least 5 layers of flooring that I removed - lowering the height of the cabinets about 1-1/2". My wife said that if I had put another layer of floor on we would be standing too close to the ceiling! It was like an archeological dig back to the original linoleum put down in 1932. I found the highest point in the floor (which was surprisingly level) and ran a level line around the wall from that point. The cabinets are particle board boxes with oak face frames and doors - and oak print paper on the end. I replaced the paper covered particle board along the bottom inside the toe kick space with oak flooring boards left over from repairing some termite damaged oak floor. I held them on with brass screws. They fit perfectly without even having to rip them. If I ever have to get under the cabinets now, I can simply unscrew the toe kicks. I installed the bottom cabinets first. Then had a pro. install the laminate counter top which has a cove at the back and a splash guard that goes up the wall to under the top cabinets. The guy who installed the counter top for me said that this was the first amateur job he has seen where he didn't have to level the cabinets to make the counter top fit. He also liked the screw in toe kicks. Then I made a box that is just about 1/8" shorter than the space between the counter top and the bottom of the upper cabinets with a chamfer at the back to allow for the cove in the back splash. I put the box on the top of the lower cabinets and the upper cabinets on the box and used wedges between the bottom of the upper cabinets and the top of the box to level the upper cabinets and hold them while I screwed them in place. Long explanation for a simple task, but I as able to do the work by myself this way.
Edited 7/12/2005 12:25 pm ET by Fitandcut
You used one of my favorite wrong terms-HOT WATER HEATER. If the water is hot ,why heat it? Don't feel too bad as big boxes and Sears have regular sales of "hot water heaters". It is just a water heater.
Right you are. I have used that term all my life and never really thought about it.
Hey RJT
Actually, at my age (53) and the toll remodeling has taken on me (bodily - just had surgery on my neck for C7T1 pinched nerve and more surgeries to come - knees, shoulder, blah, blah, blah) I'm thinking retooling my shop to some degree for finer work may be a good long sighted idea for me. Slowly evolving into a cabinet/furniture shop. I have enough of a remodeling rep and clientel, I believe the transition may happen faster than I thik.
Buz
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled