I think I know the answer to this already but since there’s such a wealth of know-how available I thought I’d ask….-
We have just bought new place that’s a candidate for a total kitchen re-do. When I did the kitchen in our current place, I bought the standard consumer mass-market cabinets-in-cardboard-boxes stuff. Available in modular sizes …. blah-blah – you know the story.
Now in this new place I think I’d like to try my hand at building the entire set of cabinets. Wouldn’t it be easier to build the entire run of cabinets (per wall) as one assembly rather than building a bunch of boxes? I understand the point of the commercial stuff in that you can pick & choose various sizes from the catalog to fill up your space. Here, I’ll be building “to fit”.
I’m cognizant of issues like can I make it around all the corners from the shop to the kitchen at such-and-such length, Do *very* accurate as-builts and provide for some tolerance,….. What else should I be paying attention to? Besides keeping my fingers out of the saw blade??
Thanks….
[email protected]
Replies
Dennis,
There is absolutely no reason for you not to use any construction technique that you want. You could do exactly what you propose and the only limiting factor to the quality of the outcome will be your ability to execute your own design.
I am in the middle of exactly the same kind of project and went through exactly the same kind of decision-making. The style of the cabinetry was "Eurostyle" from the very beginning, but I did not have to adopt those construction techniques.
However, the designers immersed in those principles have invented a lot of wheels that I don't need to. Thet've solved an awful lot of problems already, with very elegant solutions. It's true that part of their goal is to build a system that can be taken down and moved when changing homes. But I found that using their tried and true methods has resulted in a very high level of quality in my design. Adopting a modular concept (every cabinet is essentially a stand-alone entity which attaches to the next unit) has in no way interfered with the overall concept of a completely custom kitchen designed, built into and dependent on the available space for its size and configuration.
The only thing I did not adopt from Eurostyle is the use of plastic laminate anywhere!
The nice thing about your situation is that you have a blank slate and can apply solutions with any mechanically appropriate method.
Rich
> ...There is absolutely no reason for you not to use any construction technique that you want.
I realize that, Rich. I could pour them out of concrete if I wanted. But 40+ years of marriage isn't worth risking over principle (grin)
What I meant by posing the question was ... what sort of things should I look out for in approaching the construction this way. I know it's not uncommon. But as was pointed out in another response, sheer size is a consideration. Fortunately, the way I'm designing the kitchen layout, there won't be any really long runs. Most of the base cabinets will be broken up with appliances like dishwaser, refer, etc.
One thing that was pointed out was the attachment for hardware. That's the kind of ensight I was looking for since I hadn't taken that into consideration.
I do appreciate your taking the time to reply, Rich. I'm not blowing off your comments in the least.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
"There is absolutely no reason for you not to use any construction technique that you want."
Well, I didn't think to also say, "within other considerations of sanity and necessity and marital bliss"
But I was feeling those sentiments in my heart.
Sorry, I don't have specific enlightenment to offer. This actually is my first kitchen remodling effort also. You'll solve problems as they need. First you have to decide what you want, then spend a LONG time in the design phase. Make LOTS of sketches and near-final drawings. And realize that most kitchen cabinet construction is done to accomodate the contractor, not the customer. Don't be afraid to use design and construction methods more from the field of furniture than from expedient box construction. And, oh yeah - use under drawer guides, not side mounted, the best hinges, finish the undersides of drawers, leave no unsealed surfaces anywhere, don't spit into the wind, don't tug on superman's cape, never play cards with a guy named Doc.
Rich
You're a riot, Rich! -grin-
Sketching, drafting, design,... are my day to day activities. And my life mate isn't satisfied until she can comprehend what's happening in "her" space. She doesn't do the plan & elevation thing. Thank goodness for 3D modeling software (g)
Actually one of the first woodworking projects I ever undertook was building a kitchen cabinet for the first house we ever owned. I built a cooktop base cabinet penninsula and an upper cabinet which housed an exhaust fan. Had to farm out the rest since I didn't have space to build them. Come to think of it, now that I think of it, they built the sink base cabinet in one piece, about 10' long. That was a beaut to snake up the stairs.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
It sounds to me like your going to have a lot of fun designing this kitchen thing down to the very last brush stroke of finish material. With our help, I'm sure it'll be ready for your 50th wedding anniversary.....lol.
My biggest concern would be two fold: the distance between your kitchen cabinets to be and your tools (back and forth, back and forth)...and your ability to achieve the accuracy you desire given the circumstances. I'm thinking about the physical requirements both stamina and body flexibility wise to be able to measure twice and cut once. Also, I would assume, your measuring tools are designed for benchtop work (comfortable, well lit) and not the dark corners of the kitchen.
Lastly, given that this is quasi-retirement kitchen(for you at least, your poor wife never gets a break...lol) I would think you'll want to design in some details that will be rather unique..thereby making the built in place concept that much more complicated. Okay, I'll stop wringing my hands now...lol
Hey a quick shot regarding hardware. Put whatever you want on for handles but think twice before using the cast metal Euro Hinges. I have them on ~22 cabinet doors in my kitchen from the last cabinet project I built with my dad before he passed. The 32 mm hole, alignment ease, and brainless installation were wonderful, and "they were from Europe" so my wife liked it immediately.
Putting it together was a breeze. Downside is this. The stupid mounting bracket that screws to the face frame is cast from some pot metal that breaks regularily. Now I have 1 preteen, and 2 teenaged sons that use the current cabinet doors to air their pits as they review the cereal selection, use the handles to pull themselves up to get a glass or a plate (preteen), and a garbage bin door that is a bimonthly repair project.
Frankly I hate Euro Hinges. I am forever replacing the plate on these things. Further analysis I found the reason they broke was the adjustment screws were loose on those that broke. I go thru the house every month and retighten the screws now.
Those ugly as crud stamped & cheaply brass plated offset hinges my dad formerly used never broke with me or my 4 brothers when we grew up. I don't think those Euro's are an improvement. I am not going to disparrage the manufacturers but rest assured I've replaced them with the cheapest and the "best" and they all break. Possibly people are more refined in Europe, or their maids don't lean on the door but it ain't working here.
Go find a local brand of hinge and make sure it is stamped or machined not cast.
But then again possibly your maid could learn to replace the hinge plate.
Is it time to tell the boys any further breakage comes out of their food budget?
The 17 year old is 240 and 6'3"
You tell him!
Wire the handles with 220 V AC.
Rich
In the past I've had problems with the adjustment screws loosening, to the point of frustration. I found that a drop of loc-tite on each screw takes care of the problem, and you can still turn the screws in case an adjustment is needed. As far as kids hanging on cabinet doors, well, it really doesn't matter how big they are, if I catch em, they get a boot in the a$$. Don't forget who's boss.
> ...Go find a local brand of hinge and make sure it is stamped or machined not cast.
Thanks for passing along the info! Haven't gotten to the hardware selection yet. That's some while off.
I dislike the whole idea of swinging doors for cabinets, if you want to know the truth. Those tambour (is that what they're called) doors are pretty neat but seem like they'd take up too much space either above or on the sides for pockets to roll into.
Open shelves are sounding pretty good right now! (grin).
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
My wife & I have a dream kitchen where all of the Cabinets countertops and Shelving are made of Stainless steel. The floors slope slightly tword the center of the floor. The walls are tile, and the center of the floor holds a standard kitchen sink drain with a garbage disposer. Off to one side is fitting for a 1 inch High Pressure hose.
I suppose you'd have to make some cabinets that are NEMA 4x to keep the flour & spices dry.
It still might not be too late for you to reconsider this design.
The big drawback of what you propose, as you are aware of, is that of moving such a large(you don't say how) unit, not to mention if you have to take it back out during installation. Building smaller component boxes and applying a single face frame in place would achieve the same results, but would take a lttle more effort to mount the frame, most likely requiring more than one nail.
Another thing to pay attention to are any appliance clearances. Try to know ahead of time what units you will use, and get the spec sheets for them. Most are pretty standard, but others have a wide range of tolerance.
When laying out the cabinets, keep the side panels nearly flush to the inside of the frame opening for ease of hardware mounting. If you have an inch, or whatever, from the inside edge of the frame opening to the case side, you will need to pad out to mount draw slides and hinge plates for concealed hinges.
Hi Dave -
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Size, and especially manoeuvering the passage into the kitchen were the two initial downsides that came to mind. However I was working on the layout this evening and the base cabinets will be sufficiently broken up such that there won't be any long runs to speak of.
I will need dividers between stacks of drawers, door units and such. I hadn't even thought about the hardware mounting mentioned in another response.
Thanks again.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
I just bought a bunch of cabinets from Eagle cabinets (near the Maltby Cafe off of 522). They're the only ones I could afford. The hickory fronts and drawers are beautiful and very well made. The basic boxes are cheap MDF-melamine (which is why they were so inexpensive) but the whole kitchen only cost me $2,500! I didn't install them like standard boxes however; I did things like adding oak struts to the sides between the boxes for strength so they could support the granite top that I made. I also fabricated a set of hanging cabinets over my island which encloses a fan. I basically tossed out the MDF portion and used the hickory for the fronts and backs. The island cabinets and fan combination cost FAR less than any other method I could think of. I'm just tossing this idea into the thread to show that, if you have some carpentry skills, you can create some nice artwork with inexpensive materials.
Darrell
> ...
I just bought a bunch of cabinets from Eagle cabinets (near the Maltby Cafe off of 522)
You actually drive that route!? You're a brave soul (grin)
This new place is kinduva retirement project, if you will. The history of the house is pretty colorful - suffice it to say, the original owner/builder lost his wife during the building process, he lost interest in it and it was never finished. All the hard stuff is done like wiring, plumbing, drywall. The kitchen actually had rather nice, although dated and too dark for our taste, casework installed and the kitchen was functional. But spatially it doesn't work so they're gone.
Call it stubborn, but I'm fascinated with the idea of taking a bunch of boards, plywood, screws and hardware and turning them into a kitchen.
> ...so they could support the granite top that I made.
Are you in the stone trade? How thick was/is the granite? The project I'm working on (custom house) has 2-1/2" thick cabinets (Balthoup -sp- out of Germany) that are like 9/16" melamine boxes. We had Foss Millwork build some really fantastic figured cherry doors and drawer fronts for the boxes. Nobody seemed concerned about the weight (except me) but they seem to be holding up. We've got some *BIG* slabs sitting on that melamine faced (I guess) MDF.
> .... hickory fronts and drawers are beautiful...
I've only seen one installation of kitchen cabinets done in hickory. The impact of the contrasting grain was a little to, shall we say, un-subdued for my taste. The only personal experience I've had with hickory was in making some mallet handles. The piece I got from Crosscut was a very nice, even shade of grey brown/tan. I could live with that.
> ...you can create some nice artwork with inexpensive materials.
That's an intriguing concept for sure.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
"> .... hickory fronts and drawers are beautiful...
I've only seen one installation of kitchen cabinets done in hickory. The impact of the contrasting grain was a little to, shall we say, un-subdued for my taste. The only personal experience I've had with hickory was in making some mallet handles. The piece I got from Crosscut was a very nice, even shade of grey brown/tan. I could live with that"
Just build a kitchen outta Hickory. Birch Boxes Hickory F/F doors drawer fronts and raised side panels came out nice. used a chestnut stain and hand selected the wood ..chose the ones with the knots and worm holes, ect. I also installed a tile granite counter top w/back splash. Its definately one of kind. If you decide to use Hickory be gentle with it cuz it will split and splinter easy and it will wear your blades and router bits out fast. But.. It definately is worth it. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
> ...If you decide to use Hickory be gentle with it
My only experience with hickory to date has been some handles I've turned from it. Turns nicely and takes a nice rubbed finish.
Actually the design for our kitchen casework lies along the lines of paneled/framed doors but the infill or panels will be another material altogether different from wood.
There are so many great materials out there anymore!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Taunton Press used to have a book on building kitchen cabinets in place, which would solve the problem of moving very large pieces, at the possible cost of the kitchen being unusable for a longer time.
> ...at the possible
cost of the kitchen being unusable for a longer time.
Thanks for the reference. There's really no problem with being 'out of service' since there are no cabinets at all in the space as I type! (hehehe). We'll not be taking up permanent occupancy of the place until some time next year. The kitchen is just the tip of the iceberg! (g)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I've done a fair amount of work in 1920s to 1960's houses and all the kitchens are built as you are planning, but rather than shop building the long runs, they were built in place by the carpenter. If you look for older books on finish carpentry you will find a wealth of detail on the methods, and they are convertible to non-face frame construction if you prefer that look.Shop building the long runs will give you no advantage. Building and fitting in place is far easier.
The advantage to modular construction is that any later change is easily accomodated without ripping out the whole kitchen (ie adding a dishwasher or a larger oven, etc). The modular is also stronger in that you get double 3/4"gables every two feet or so (at least in a well-built kitchen), sufficent strength to support a six inch concrete slab if that is what you wanted. I don't think this method is used solely for the contractors benefit, although I vastly prefer building Kitchens this way. It allows a greater degree of flexibility as well as repairability and installation involves days rather than weeks, things that benefit the owners greatly.
> ...Shop building the long runs will give you no advantage. Building and fitting in place is far easier.
As the design progresses, it's starting to incorporate some angularity. We're knocking out two walls and extending a corner out onto a porch affair to make the space work more efficiently. The outside corner will (as I see it now) have a corner sink and window so the work triangle will flow around this corner more fluidly. Everything is pointing to a build-in-place operation. Now to make sure everything's planned out well enough so there won't have to be any mods in the future!
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
>> Now to make sure everything's planned out well enough so there
>> won't have to be any mods in the future!
Snork. I'm not laughing at you, buddy, I'm laughing with you.
By 'in the future' do you mean until you discover a new cuisine that requires all new equipment? Or until someone in a wheelchair needs to use the kitchen? Or until you start canning a lot of produce from your garden? Etc. The only way I can think of to prevent future changes is to build in such a way that change would be hideously expensive.
One of the most interesting books I've read in recent years was How Buildings Learn, by Stewart Brand. He talks about how hard it is to foresee what you might need from a building in the future, and how it's probably easier to design to make change easy than to design to make change unnecessary.
Uncle,
Your absolutely correct..change is constant. The reality is a kitchen is a production center that should be designed as fluidly and open as possible. At the risk of being overly dramatic, the preperation of each meal requires a different work flow and just about everything should be movable to accomodate that set up. Cooking, clean-up and refrigeration need to be incapsulated and designed to totally accomodate the function...but between those areas it should be movable. Okay, back to reality...it's just my wife and I now and she has two votes.
It does bother me though that if you look at how the overhead cabinets are utilized the first shelf is at 100%, the second shelf about 50% and the top shelf is practically dead storage. It inconvienent, expensive and somewhat dangerous. Oh well...
True - the only thing constant is change. And never is, of course, a long time! (heh-heh). None the less, we're just the two of us and like was said, Wife gets the majority of votes but .... I'm the builder (g).
Oddly enough, when the kids were little (as in baby/toddler) we had also envisioned a kitchen that could be steam cleaned every evening. I'm still intrigued with the idea of stainless steel countertops but Mom doesn't think the would be all that easy to keep clean (looking). Water spots and all that. Soap stone is my next favorite material.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I would recommend Jim Tolpin's book Making Traditional Kitchen Cabinets which is published by Taunton Press. Tolpin is a great woodworker and writer. His book should answer any questions that you have.
You received some advice in an earlier response to pick out your appliances and use their clearance specifications to begin your design. I strongly suggest that you heed that advice.
I would make several smaller cabinets rather than just one for several reasons. It is easier to handle and install smaller units. ( Could you even fit the one long cabinet through the door and around that corner.) If you are short on shop space, (which I am) you can make some cabinets and move them to other locations while working on other units. If your wife decides on a bigger stove after you've built your cabinets, the one big cabinet is not wasted. Besides, you've got to put dividers in for drawer and shelf support anyway, so it is probably easier to keep things lined up correctly by making the smaller units.
Good Luck!
Kyle
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled