Building Kitchen Cabinets, Am I Nuts?
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I’m not sure what I’m looking for here, so pardon the rambling. My wife and I just bought a new kitchen range, so of course we now need a new kitchen to go with it. In looking at cabinets in stores, there seem to be two types; mortgage your future and buy custom cabinets or settle for plastic looking ready-made cabinets.
As a fairly new woodworker with limited talents and intelligence, am I crazy thinking about building my own cabinets? I bought the Taunton book, “Building Kitchen Cabinets” by Udo Schmidt, and it seems fairly straightforward. Any help/support you can throw my way would be appreciated. I’m leaning towards face frame type cabinets. They will be painted with simple shaker-style frame and panel doors. I’m not sure what materials to use. I would like to stay away from particle board and mdf. Should I use birch ply or mdo plywood for the boxes? What would be a good paintable wood for the faces and doors?
Like I said, any help would be appreciated. If you have any negatives, send them along too, although I tend to ignore advice that I don’t like. Any good web resources, books, anecdotes, cautionary tales, personal experiences.
Thanks in advance.
Replies
As another amateur, I think you'll find that you don't come out very far ahead financially building the basic cabinet units or the basic drawers and shelves yourself. The factories that make these things use highly-efficient assembly lines and buy their raw materials cheaper than you can, so you can spend a fair amount of time building them yourself and still not save much money. You might be better off buying the basic boxes and building the fronts yourself, though you'll still be amazed at the price of good wood. I'll be interested to hear what you learn about specific prices.
Good morning,
I was in your position about 6 months ago and took the plunge. I have my shop set up in a 1 car garage so space was a bit limited. Otherwise, I have every tool I thought I would need, Cabinet saw, jointer, planer, "16 band saw, drill press, etc. I bought the same book you have and it ended up being pretty helpful. I went with face frame construction and used Birch lumber and Baltic birch plywood. I built all the face frames first, and the jointer and planer were helpful in making sure all my stock was straight and dimensioned correctly. Used my Kreg jig to do the pocket holes and it worked flawlessly. I used biscuits and brads to connect the face frames to the carcasses. I had to store most of the units in my living room after they were constructed because of the space issue. My only problem was storing all the plywood sheets correctly and then having to rough cut them down to size with a circular saw.
As long as your wife understands that a one-of-a-kind custom kitchen takes time I would encourage you to go for it.
Ryan
Jim,
Building face frames, doors, and drawer faces is fun and allows you to show your craftsmanship and get a custom look. Building and finishing the boxes that are behind the visible face is pure drudge work for even a medium sized kitchen.
There are several companies that specialize in making the boxes to your custom sizes and will ship them knocked down for you to assemble. I would definitely look into buying the boxes and putting your energy into the front faces.
John W.
Every woodworker should make kitchen cabinets from scratch just for the experience. That way, the next time they need a kitchen built, they will order them from Home Depot. LOL
I built all the cabinets, counter tops, pantry, etc for a 15' by 20' kitchen and used the european design. Birch ply for the boxes and maple ply for the doors and drawer fronts. Solid mable for the recessed drawer pulls and edge banding. No face frames. I put five coats of clear poly on the front of everything and made sure the grain pattern matched up across the fronts. It looks great.
The best part is that you get to design and build your specialty cabinets and cubby holes that fit your space and cooking style. Did you know I invented the pull out spice racks that you now see in the stores? (I wish)
In the lower cabinets, all the shelves pull out on full-extension glides, so you can get to everything easily. I even included a roll-around kitchen cart that hides behind the doors of one of the lower cabinets.
So go to it, and have fun!
You should try it. I built a ten foot run of cabinets for our remodeled kitchen. I knew that they were going to be painted, so I used poplar for the face frames and for the rails and stiles on the doors. I made arched raised panels for the lower doors out of MDF and glass front doors on the uppers. The face frame joinery was pocket screws. The boxes were 3/4" plywood with 1/2 " backs... overkill by any standard.
I used the same book you have and a few others for ideas and techniques. I had no experience with projects this large when I started and had more than a few anxious moments, but it was definately worth it. And I saved thousands compared to the cabinets my wife had picked out.
Jim,
As a remodeler I have seen about every comercially produced cabinet out there. Where ever you were looking for cabinets (HD, Lowes, outlets) I will bet $10 that you never saw a "custom cabinet" in the bunch. You saw some very nice looking cabinets, but not custom. Even the top of the line special order units at HD are veneered MDF with knock down assembly. They don't even use Ply in the sink cabinet where water damage is certian to occur. Customers always ask about my custom (truly custom) cabinets but very few are willing to spend for the difference.
If you build your own you can:
match the grain on the rails/stiles by cutting them from the same board, Use exotic veneers for the panels, make the counter height 39" or 32". make the depth on one side 20" to afford space for a Island. mount your wine cooler in the overhead cabinets, install a hidden 14" plasma screen over the custom toaster cubby. mount the dishwasher 18" off the floor for easier access and have a storage drawer under it. Make the pot drawers with 1/2" birch Ply bottoms for no sag assurance (even the best comercial units use lesser materials). Instead of hanging useless cabinets Over the refridgearator put a 8" deep storage bin UNDER the Ref. install custom stained glass panels depicting the same spring colours viewed from the windows.
WHAT EVER YOU WANT!! That is custom!! I am very upset at how the word CUSTOM is thrown around today. I am not attacking you.... it is the marketing of the industry. My friends purshased a $300,000 "custom" house, then hired me to hang the moulding, wainscotting, and built-ins they wanted because the profiles they liked were not offered by the builders supplier (I bought the trim about 5 miles from their house), plus I subbed out painting about half the house. This very reputable custom buillder allowed no more than two (2!!) colours to be chosen. BTW 300 grand is a lot in Texas.
So, by God build your cabinets and show the whole world what is possible. Start a revolution. Togather we will show the world that it is not necessary to stand on tippy-toes to reach the overhead cabinets! DO IT!
Oh yea, mamke shure that your wife wont leave you if it takes you a year to finnish them. LOL
Mike
Yes..Revolt, let's customize!!
Love your refrigerator idea...my wife hides the good stuff on the bottom shelf of the refrig...cause I can't bend over that far...
On the other hand, with the refrig 8" taller...she would have a tough time reaching on top for my wallet....
Glad you like that idea, I can't claim it though. It was in a JLC article about CUSTOM cabinets a couple of monts ago.
Mike
Jim,
No, you're not nuts.
If you have a table saw, circular saw, router, a jointer or portable planer (or hand planes if you take time to develop the skills) and room to set up a four ft. by eight foot cutting/layout table, you can build the cabinets. Oh yeah, patience and a good sense of humor will help too.
The article below will show you how to make guides that will allow you to cut the box pieces with your circular saw. With a large work table and the guides you'll be surprised how easy it is to make the boxes.
You'll also find excuses to buy a bunch of other tools that you'll enjoy forever.
Good luck and have fun!
oldfred
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00035.asp
Oh, I've got lots of tools, Fred. No worries there. I just never thought I'd have to use them.
Since you are asking: Yea, you might be nuts. The main reason you give for possibly doing this is to save the money you'd spend to get the kind of cabinets you want. If your main motivation is money, or the saving of it, then this is a question that only you and your wife can answer. How important is it to you? How would you be using your time otherwise?
Personally, I don't ask questions like this. I simply HAVE to do it myself. I don't really think that I'm crazy, but sometimes I wonder......
I built 50 odd linear feet of cabinets for our house last year. I made the face frames and raised panel doors out of curly maple. The boxes were made from birch ply. All the materials including accuride slides, knobs etc. cost me about $4K. That doesn't include the countertops which were another $5K. According to the contractor who did the dry-in of the addition, he would have bid the cabinets @$20K. So, of course, I chose to believe him and think that I saved big bucks. Most importantly, it is exactly what my wife wanted. Exact dimensions, exact features, the right wood and grain match, the right layout etc. Now, I'm an amateur woodworker so my time was my entertainment. If I figured any reasonable hourly wage, I'm sure I lost money BIG TIME. But it was fun and all guests marvel at our kitchen, so it was worth it, whatever the cost.
Mike
You are not nuts, that's what woodworking is all about. There are a few challenging aspects, but not many. All the above advice is good. Pocket screws, veneer plywood, and so forth.
A few additional comments. Overlay doors are easier to fit than full inset. For drawers, I bought them and applied the hardware and fronts. I did customize, varying the heights, and the depths, and making them so they look like they are on legs. I also wanted to try to fit everything without moulding because I like the look. Finishing can be drudgery. If you are painting, that's easier. Also, it's easier to paint the interiors before you put the back on so you don't have as many corners to collect runs. Don't skip the primer, because it will even out the sheen between glue marks and patched mistakes.
Jim Tolpin's kitchen cabinet book is good, too. Also, study how cabinets are put together in showrooms. Especially the better quality ones.
I would buy the boxes from someone like cabparts.. and make the doors myself.These are euro cabs not face frames. They are melamine covered mdf and you can't make em yourself for the cost. with the addition of spacers it will be a much better cabinet than face frames. Use accuride/ blum hardware and they are as good as anyones. I made 27 feet for 2k...Maple melamine boxes and alder frame and panel doors and panels..Doors and panels were finished in a rustic glaze w cat lacquer finish. There is an article in fhb 6 or 7 years ago about how to add spacers etc to make euro cabs look more period...If you cant find it ,post and Will look it up..
Go for it. I did it twice (so I wasn't scarred too badly by the first experience). I have also installed two kitchens in my homes with factory cabinets. Even the first do it yourself kitchen, which was my first "big" project, had better quality than the store bought cabinets, but I did use store cabinets where I didn't have time for the cabinet-building project.
Consider stained wood rather than painted cabinets - it will allow you to admire the wood and your woodwork much more than with paint. If you are going to paint, poplar and MDF aren't evil, but I would use paint-grade birch plywood where strength is required. If you are going to stain, many woods such as oak and maple aren't that much more expensive than paint-grade wood.
I built the face frames first (all of them, in the era before pocket screws). Then I built the doors, since they could be fit to the frames. Finally I cut and only dry fit the cabinets. Notice that everything can still be stored flat. The final assembly of the cabinets was done last, only shortly before the installation of the kitchen. Also, depending on your layout, you may be able to install one portion of the kitchen at a time (so fewer cabinets have to be assembled and stored at a time, and so the installation can be done on weekends without putting the kitichen out of service so long.
Good luck!
________________________
Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood
I would say if you have a "fire in your belly" about this kitchen project, by all means, you should go ahead and start climbing the mountain. Just having the courage to undertake the project is better than 50% of the challenge.
Let me run down a list of things you might want to consider.
DEVISE A SYSTEM. There are lots of ways to put boxes together (biscuits,rabbets, etc. etc.). The important thing here is to settle on a particular system that makes sense to you and seems doable, then stay with it, and don't worry whether it's the "best" system.
BOOKS / KNOWLEDGE. There are dozens of books on building kitchen cabinets, but I would find one that you like and stick with it. I don't know the Schmidt book you mention, but if its comprehensible to you, then that's as good as any other. If you buy a half dozen other books, you'll probably just end up confused and intimidated. Everyone has a different way of doing things, and from what you describe of your skill level, all these different approaches may just end up adding more confusion to the fire.
EUROPEAN STYLE vs. FACE FRAMES. Unless forced to, I never use face frames. For me, the European syle (which is just a series of boxes) is way easier; you can give the kitchen a sleek and modern look, or if you prefer, a more traditional feel.
However, my point is that you should pick whichever style seems easiest for you. If you feel more comfortable with face frames, then that's how you should go -- no matter what anyone else might tell you.
EUROPEAN HINGES. Whatever style you use,I would strongly urge you to consider using European syle hinges (the kind that require a 35 mm hole in the door). This is particularly true if you have a drill press (or access to one), but the holes can be done with a portable drill set up with a guide (Portalign is one brand).
Granted, there is a learning curve with these things, and they do look klunky when you open the door. But they just can't be beat when it comes to adjustability.
MATERIALS. Don't be too quick to dismiss MDF as a material for your boxes. Yes, it's heavy and a pain to move around, but the panels will stay flatter than veneer core plywood. And, if you try to hang doors or drawers on a box where the sides are even slightly bowed one way or another, you will truly understand the virtues of using a material than stays flat.
Plain MDF takes paint very well (see current FWW, #170), and it is inexpensive (about $22 a sheet in MN).
As for solid lumber for the doors (which will take paint), that depends in part where you are located. In this area the choices would be poplar, birch or soft maple -- all of which are priced about the same.
BASE FOR THE CABINETS. I would urge you to build a separate, independent base for each run of base cabinets. It is very easy to level up the base, attach it to the floor, and then simply set your boxes on the base. This technique is much easier than trying to level each cabinet in the run.
I build my bases 3 1/2" high -- either out of 2 x 4's, or left over scraps from the boxes. Once shimmed to level, I run a piece of 1/4" plywood along the front facade, and cut it to size.
NEGATIVES. Time is about the only downside here. Building the boxes goes pretty fast, but there is a lot of futzing around in building/fitting doors and drawers. It helps a lot if you and all the people around you understand this from the onset.
I wish you great good luck on the undertaking -- and I hope you will share your experience in these forums.
Yes, certainly try it. Unless you have a 1,000 sq ft kitchen with 80' of countertop! The kitchen will be your's in a way that it could never be otherwise. You can add special touches - see the photo I've attached.
But, first - make a cabinet style base for a benchtop woodworking machine using the same sort of construction (or some other small set of cabinets). The cabinet should have at least one panel door and some drawers. This will get the major errors out of the way and will tell you which techniques and equipment work and which need some improvement - and, if it's something you really want to do. And building such a tool base may require the purchase of a new tool to mount on it!
Picture: Pot holder out of pine between refinished 50 year old homemade cabinets. They had years of paint on them topped with canned-pea green! Note that the ceiling trim isn't painted (yet).
Jim,
Walk before you run.
Build one cabinet.
If that works out build some more.
If these work out, tear out the old cabinets.
Then get ready for part 2 - installing can be just as challenging as building the cabinets.
Good luck.
It all depends if your trying to save money then I would say buy the cabs and do the install your self. If youwant quality then build them and do the install. You wont save that much money vs time building your own. You will spend about the same amount for building your own and buying them but you will have better quality cabs doing it yourself
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
You've had a million responses. Here's a quickie. I did it. Used Tolpin's "traditional kitchen cabinets" book. Built every last part and plan to do it again in this house. I took a class at the high school just so I could use their planer/jointer. Beautiful machines. You can buy drawers and boxes, but it's easy to do yourself, too. Go for it. Anyone who says no probably hasn't ever run a table saw.
just finished building one from scratch. with two of us, it took about 2 weeks.
Custom Cabinetry and Furniture
http://www.BartlettWoodworking.com
Very nice! I'll have to show the boss. What kind of woods did you use? Are those european or face frame cabinets? What kind of finish did you use. We want painted cabinets too.
hi Jim
we used regular 3/4 melamine particle core plywood. they are Euro style, so there is no face frame. all of the trim details, crown, undervalance and doors are solid poplar. the gables, and any other sheet material that is visible is maple particle core painted to match the rest. the finish we used is called 'matador' it is a post catalyst lacquer that has to be sprayed on. the doors are poplar with a 1/4 inch maple ply panel.
Custom Cabinetry and Furniture
http://www.BartlettWoodworking.com
gecko,
a little OT, but what lighting did you use above the cabinetry pointed toward the ceiling? all the halogen "pucks" I've seen strongly discourage uplighting, but I love the look.
thanks
they came from my plywood and hardware supplier. they didn't know of any reason I could not mount the facing up, and the instructions that came with the lights said nothing either. they seem fine, and don't get any hotter than the ones below. I think maybe Hettich makes them, but I'm not positive.
Custom Cabinetry and Furniture
http://www.BartlettWoodworking.com
hey gecko.
the kitchen turned out really well, as always.
ryan.
You might save money by building them into the wall and floor the old fashioned way, without making plywood boxes.
Audel's Builders Guides Vol I in the older additions show how this is done...the guides are usually available on Ebay inexpensively. My 1923 edition and my 1961 edition show traditional cabinet construction.
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think...that a time is to come when those (heirlooms) will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of them, ‘See! This our father did for us.’ “ --John Ruskin.
It really depends on what you are interested in. In terms of construction complexity, the cabinet boxes are about as basic as you can do in woodworking, faceframes (if you choose to go with them) are a little more involved, but only in the sense of precision.
When we remodeled our kitchen I had a custom cabinet company give me an estimate, right around $22,000 (no countertops either). I built them myself using quality materials:
- maple plywood for the carcases
- hard maple for frames and doors. I built a traditional raised panel door with 4" rails and stiles, but installed the door with the inside out to give the kitchen a contemporary look. Bought all my stock rough and sized it myself, as well as bookmatched all my doors and panels.
- appleply for the drawers (it's a nice finished look).
- all the cabinets have full extension pullout shelfs
- the drawers use the blum tandem slides, not visible when the drawer is open yet full extension and self closing.
- extras like drawer storage in the toe kicks
- lacquer finish over a rubbed in clear danish oil base
my cost for materials and hardware, about $2,900 and another $1,800 for 18' for granite countertop installed. Took me a couple of months to get everything done because I was also remodeling the entire kitchen. Was it worth it, HELL YES!
The real key to a project like this is planning. Meticulous measurements and layout ensures that you can prebuild components and fit everything at once with few surprises. Be sure to take into account gas lines and electrical outlets. Use a story stick and templates to ensure that the cabinets are consistently built. I prebuilt my carcases w/fframes and finished them so that when my remodel was ready for cabinets and countertops I could install them on-the-fly.
Depending on how many lineal feet of cabinets you have, you may want to outsource the casework. If you don't want the standard white melamine, they have many colors available. The will kit them and label them and ship them knocked down ready for assembly. Most of my clients opt for maple melamine, which looks great. Then you can concentrate on building your face frames and doors/drawers, unless you outsource these as well.
I've built kitchens out of plywood, but for the casework I'd highly recommend melamine PB core. It will hold up well over the lifetime and you don't have to finish the inside of the casework.
Look for a college that has a good program. not only may they help you with the questions, but they might help with the student (Man) power. they'll aid with installation questions.
john
I had the same thoughts. I did the bathroom cabinets and the whole bathroom... that gave me a good feeling about doing the kitchen. I have the same book as you have and love it. I have build alot of other things but never a kitchen. I'm in the planning on doing it right now and I say lets do it!!!!
Bluegillman
I recently bought this book and made a couple of cabinets (mock-ups) because I am in the same place you are. I used Poplar for the face frames and birch ply wood for the boxes. I also used a simple frame and panel, and used quarter inch birch for the panel. I used half inch baltic birch for the drawers. All panels took paint well.
your best bet is to build the carcasses yourself, and order doors and drawers from a cabinet supplier.
You can find countless sources of door and drawer suppliers to make it worth your time and money. Choose the wood and profiles you want and while youre making the carcass they make the doors and you finish them out.
FHB or FWW had an article about this three-four months ago if memory serves me correctly.
dont bother, get the basic boxes from a big chain and do the finishing touches yourself
believe me, cutting, edgebanding plywood and drilling 5 million holes is deadly boring
get the basic boxes, order doors and drawer fronts then do the rest
i've been a kitchen cabinet guy for 17 years and wouldnt do it any other way
Jim, I've spent some time in the custom cabinetry business. It's not that difficult if you stick with the basics. However, nothing in the kitchen design will by your decision alone so you will end up with a few tricky cabinets.
The basic boxes for paint grade cabinets can be made from 15ply poplar. Its usually less expensive than most other plys. If you would like, you can use light weight MDF for those parts of the cabinet that no one will ever see. You might also think about using melamine for the shelve areas and cabinet bottoms since its surface is sealed already and very easy to keep clean. Obviously you would need to edge band the exposed edges.
The face frames can also be made from poplar as was previously suggested but I would buy your doors and drawer fronts. These can be purchased made to order from several door manufacturers at a fraction of what it would cost you to make them. Use drawer glides and European face frame hinges to ease your woes in those areas.
When your ready to design your kitchen start in the corner of no return. That's what I call it anyway. Its the corner of the kitchen that always leads you back to the kitchen and not into another room. Sounds kind of weird but that's what it does when you paint yourself into it.
Anyway, that is the starting point for all of your cabinets so this is the logical place to start taking your measurements. Once you have your basic measurements, take them to the nearest big box store that sells cabinets and have them design your kitchen, (yes you must take your wife with you). There will likely be a small fee if you do not make a buying decision at that time but what you'll end up with is a nice well thought out set of measured plans. From these plans, you can start designing your own cabinets.
Since this is your first set of cabinets, don't try to get into a production mode. Odds are that you'll make a mistake somewhere along the line and that mistake will get transmitted throughout the project.
Hope this helps, good luck
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