I will be building my own boat house doors out of black walnut (a pair of them) they are going to be 36 inches wide by 8 foot tall each will be 4 inches thick..
I have big enough hinges (4 per side) and they have ball bearings to carry the weight.
My question is can I use floating tenon joinery here? I was thinking of either a 3 inch tenon or a 2 & 9/16ths tenon.. about 8 inches long..
Replies
frenchy,
" building my own boat house doors ...can I use floating tenon joinery here?"
I would not use any joinery that did not float, in a boathouse.
Leave the tenons heavy so you can take a skiff off, later.
HaHAHAHA bouy oh bouy , I just keel myself sometimes.
Ray, furl of himself, and feeling naughty-cal
RayThank you for a real belly laugh.Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
Sire, that is a classic: are you three sheets to the wind?Philip Marcou
philip,
No, I'm on a puntoon.
Ray
Aaaaah that is too good- I can think of no rejoiner that will work...Philip Marcou
philip,
Just becalm, a rejoinder will come to you. There are avast number out there.
Ray
Your good wife is right-your wit is pierless. Was this the quay to her heart?Philip Marcou
philip,
Ah, courting the wife-my first mate... I think it may have been the set of my jib boom that won her. (Woops, hope that wasn't too big a gaff.) Of course, a declaration of luff never hurts. She thought I was gallant. But I was really just a little bouy, and she, a sweet gull.
Ray
Enough of this PUNISHMENT already!BruceT
Bruce,
You're right. I'll go aweigh.
Ray
I built a front door out of walnut and used floating tenons. I used tenons that were about 5" long so each mortise was about 2.5 inches deep they were about 1/2 inch thick buy 3 inches wide. I think the main thing is to have enough of them. My door had three rails the top rail had one tenon on each side and the middle and bottom rails had two on each side. There was a middle stile that had a tenon on the top and bottom that connected the two together so I had (have the door is installed and works fine) a total of 12 tenons. On a door that is 4" thick you could do a double row (bad pun) of tenons so in each place you would have two tenons instead of one. I have a book called Building Doors and Gates by Alan and Gill Bridgewater that shows a lot of construction details. Anyway I think you would be fine with floating tenons. Post a picture when you are done.
Troy
troys,
Nice, really nice!
Thanks
I would not use any joinery that did not float, in a boathouse. .. I see Jointers NEVER gives up!
I posted some pictures of doors I saw in China. I forget but I'd guess were 20 feet high 4 to five feet wide and THICK!
Guess what they used? Multiple Through Tenons and Wedged!
As to loose tenons I'd think OK as long as you use glue (as in marine grade). Just my opinion.
I think Jointers would use zinc plated timer spikes!..
Frenchy,
You can use well fitted loose tenons for this without a problem. As someone else suggested, for a door of that thickness pairing the tenons up, side by side, would be a definite improvement.
John White
Yestermorrow School, Waitsfield Vermont
FWW Experts column contributor
JohnW W,
Conflicting advice.. when I posted it over at Fine Home Building they thought floating tenons wouldn't cut it. I should go to fixed tenons.. Would you use a pair of tenons per thickness or a pair per timber? I was thinking someing like a 3 inch by say 12 inch tenon three times in the bottom 4x12, and two times in the middle and top 4x8's
I would go about 4 inches into the vertical and 8 inches into the horizontal..
A floating tenon glued into the end of a rail will snap off before it pulls out, the limitation is the strength of the wood and that is the same whether the tenon is solid or floating.I'll have to get back to you on the tenon sizing, got to run.John W.
I agree for what that is worth. Now how to glue steel into a floating tendon?
Frenchy,For tenon construction, I'd use 3/4 inch thick tenons 2 1/2 to 3 inches wide, and 6 inches long extending three inches into both the rails and stiles. I'd do two across and three up in the wide bottom rail for a total of six tenons at each corner joint. For the intermediate and top rails I'd do two across and two high.To make an even stiffer door I'd consider making the panels in three separate layers, with three parallel grooves running in the rails and stiles. The middle groove would have a 1/2 inch thick Baltic birch panel glued in on all four sides. The two outer grooves would have conventional floating panels made out of walnut. A door built this way would be very stiff.Another way to build the door would be to run threaded rods through the rails, two in each cross member. The nuts to tighten the rods would be hidden behind plugs in the edge of the stiles. The joints would have stub tenons for alignment, but the stiffness would come from the tension on the rods holding the joints together.Having described three different methods, I would use a combination of the last two. I'd glue in birch ply panels for stiffness and run two threaded rods in the bottom and one centered rod each in the middle and top rails to pull the joints tight. I'd also consider using one large plywood panel for the entire door which would create the stiffest possible assembly, with the middle rail split into two pieces, one applied to each face, the middle rail in this case couldn't have a threaded rod through it.Obviously, I don't build using traditional methods, I build to be absolutely failure proof and still look traditional.John White
Yestermorrow School, Waitsfield , VT
FWW Experts column contributor
You can use well fitted loose tenons?? Sounds like a bit of Poor English.. Loose, well fitted tenons?I know English is a old tradres language that fit well with most other folks understandings!
WillGeorge
What I meant is they fit tight but come loose rather than be carved into the original wood..
It's easier & stronger to form the rail ends into tenons, 5/8 the depth of the stile width, lock in place with a "blind foxtail wedge" set-up & gorilla glue crosslinked with titebond 2 (this AIN'T an advertisment). If you want to be real good, then 2 pegs through each tenon. No tenons wider than 5", & haunch the bottom 2 1/2" on the bottom rails. 4" thick? Be sure to pair the tenons. Wedging is the original way before glue. I build LARGE doors for a living. Luck.
Why mix the two glue types? I had a gate that was built out of Redwood for a school garden and some sh*ts vandalized it buy kicking it down, (should of built it out of teak) but some of the tenon glue joints (Gorilla glue) actually failed instead of the wood I have not had that happen before with tite-bond 2 or 3. Anyway just interested in your experience.ThanksTroy
Edited 10/2/2007 2:52 am ET by troys
but some of the tenon glue joints (Gorilla glue) actually failed instead of the wood ..I do not use Gorilla glue very often but on occasion. I have made several laminated archery bows for my Son. Combination of Hickory and Ash strips with a 'Fancy' wood for the grip. These bows are NOT steamed but are glued up on a form using Gorilla glue. I have never had a glue failure. I had a 50 Lb pull break once but I do not think it was a glue failure. But to be truthful, I really do not remember if I looked for the real cause. Before gluing I wipe down all surfaces of the laminations with lacquer thinner first to remove any oils.Is it possible that the glue was out of date?Oh, sorry about your gate.
WillGeorge,
did you read the article this magazine did testing glues? Gorilla glue was pretty weak compared to other glues.. I've stopped using it except when I work with wet wood such as steamed wood. other glues are intended to workon dry wood Gorilla glue is the only glue were wetting it actaully increases it's strength..
The glue was fresh but maybe my joints where not tight enough. Anyway I fixed the gate so all was fine but I found the glue failure interesting. I was also thinking maybe it had something to do with the wood being redwood. Troy
"gorilla glue crosslinked with titebond 2 "
This has piqued my interest. Care to elaborate on the technique and logic?
Personally, I think Gorilla glue often fails because folks try to rely on it to compensate for sloppy joint work. Expanded GG is just foam and has no real strength. Never had a problem with it though (other than annoying ooze) in a well-made joint. Still, never had a problem with Titebond either, so I see no real advantage to GG and I've found myself using it less and less, if for no other reason that it seem to maliciously leap off the workpiece and onto my hands, clothes, . . . .
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
From the tests done by Fine Wood Working on this very subject I understand why gorilla glue is such a weak joint. it has nothing to do with sloppy fits. Gorilla glue is weak. Read the article if you doubt me.. Having said that I will continue to use Gorilla Glue where I steam things since it is designed to work on wet wood which none of the other glues are..
Mike, I like to cross the GC with T2 for a few reasons. 1st is that sometimes the mortise may be slightly wider than the tenon (3/4" thick tenon- 13/16" mortise) and I feel that the addition of the plastic resin in the T2 will partially bridge the gap. Also, the additional moisture from thr T2 helps kick in the GC, it's also nice to have the thicker material to help fill in the slight gap that occurs between the shoulder of the rail & the edge of the stile. . . Not that my joints ever have that occur. . I wish. When the RARE occasion of this occurs, a good trick is to take some of the flour from sanding the same material & rub it into the slit/gap. It seems to fill it in nice & does accept stain.
A common mistake a lot of people make with the GC is to wet the wood & not allow it to penatrate the wood. The wetter the wood the faster the GC goes off. When it goes fast no strength is imbued in rhe joint. Also, for M & T joinery, the joinery is more important than relying soley on the adhesive.
Overall, T2 is my desert island choice. I just obtained 5 gals of T2 extend, I'm giving it a month to rpove itself. Sure hope it doesn't fail, these doors are gonna be 9'/0" x 8'/0" (2 slabs each) and some entry units.
I also like the GC for laminated bends, it only springs back 5 to 8% which is easy to figure.
Sorry I was so wordy, I still am a fan of the GC & have seen guys misuse it far too often & wasted too much money on RE-Do's.
Luck
Bob Shilki
Thanks! I'll give it a try sometime.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I forgot technique; For wide stuff, I use plastic knives, 4" to 6" for GG, 2" brush for T2, good amount of clamping pressure. 4-5 hours & it's ready to start remove foam. Try some denatured alcohol & wipe the project with a blotting style to remove the foam out (if you have time, it's a 1/2 hour) Any other questions I'll try to answer for you 4 question limit if I don't have a beer or a nice, single malt scotch.
Good night
Shilki1
I assume since fine wood working came out with their test of glues you've revised your thinking on Glue? Considering how poorly gorilla glue did, I only use Gorilla glue now when I work with wet wood (as in steamed wood)
"4 inches thick"
are you trying to stop a cannonball?? I'm sure they'll look good BUT that's a waste of a precious resource in my opinion.
Expert since 10 am.
jackplane,
well, you and I differ. While I love the look of blackwalnut I choose it because it was cheap and it was decay resistant..
Cheap as in 17 cents a bd.ft. Yep! I paid 6 bucks for a 4"x6" x9' blackwalnut heartwood.. There's a story here so bare with me. I bought most of my black walnut back in 1999 at the time the market for dark woods like black walnut and even cherry was virtually non-existant.. light colored woods were all the rage and birch, maple and white oak were at a real premium.. When the woodlot they bought from included blackwalnut they just set the trees aside hoping the market for them would come back.. eventually too much of their yard was stacked up with blackwalnut and they sold it off to pallet mills who at the time were only paying 17 cents a bd.ft. (that's still around the price they pay for hardwood to make pallets out of)..
Today since the Chineese are in the market in a big way the price is over $2.65 a bd.ft. for mill run.. That's rough and green at the mill. you need to buy a bunker (about 1000 bd.ft.) at a time minimum to get prices like this.
If you look at the pictures I've posted of my place you'll see a lot of really large black walnut beams, 12x12x24' etc.. the outside is timberframed with black walnut and all the exterior trim is black walnut as well. Inside the flooring is mostly black walnut and the master bedroom has beams of black walnut floor of black walnut and ceiling of black walnut plus some raised panels made of black walnut..
Now shall we discuss white oak, maple, and cherry? Heck this whole place is built with hardwoods..
Sounds unusual...I'd like to see the pics!Expert since 10 am.
Jackplane,
37758.1 should get some of them also 34543.3 should have some more. Go over to the left side of intro page and go to advanced search and enter those numbers in down towards the bottom.
Frenchy,
I can't see any reason not to use "loose tenons" if you want.
Regarding tenon thickness: as far as I know the general rule is that these should be about 1/3rd of the rail thickness,but 11/2 inches would be fine. Why do you want to make them so thick? what means do you have for morticing?
Four inches thick??? The last time I saw doors that thick was in Geneva-these were about 20feet high, the walls were about 2 feet thick solid stone blocks.....Is your building to match? (;)Can we see pics of the Ship?
philip,
Basically yes! My foundation is 22 inches thick poured concrete (Plus a vaneer of about 4 inch stones) the walls are 16 to 18 inches thick, The door frame is made of 18 inch wide 6 inch thick white oak timbers. Some of the timbers in this place are 24"x24" x24' long.
pictures are at 37758.1 and 34543.3
It's a double timberframe. the timbers on the outside are all black walnut and the timbers on the inside are all white oak..
I believe that floating tenons will do the job well and hold up over time as long as you keep the door finish in good shape. Either of your plans should be successful.
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