Building to last: many are called, but…
Many of us want to make things that will last for generations, indeed for centuries. Old pieces that are still beautiful and functional inspire us with what could be, with attractive notions of quality, stewardship, care, understanding, skill, enduring value, a worthy legacy, and so forth.
But are we actually doing it?
That’s fairly doubtful, if one is to believe recent comments from some experienced restorers and conservators. I was rocked to read that most of today’s finest work is likely to have a working life of a generation or two (if not less) because of (among other things) the use of adhesives that are difficult to repair w/out creating substantial damage to the work.
Counting on obsessive attention to wood movement, well-fitting properly-sized joinery, protective and stabilizing finishes, and attractiveness that inspires good care to carry my pieces across the generations, this was a bombshell. Those things are good, but apparently insufficient. When you add the complexities of laminated and veneered work, things become even more complicated.
So how long can we reasonably expect work to last, given reasonable but not exceptional care? What’s the service life of well-dovetailed drawer? a plywood partition? A long grain glue joint, a corner joint, a frame joint? An edge banded veneered top, or a bent laminated component (pick your core)?
How is our work likely to fail, and will those failures be reasonable to repair?
Could your pieces survive some years in a garage, attic, or basement, which is all too likely over the course of many generations?
What can we do to make this better?
Do we have solid evidence of what we assert, or are we relying on wishful thinking?
Are there resources that address this subject in a critical and thorough fashion from the perspective of makers?
What questions do YOU wonder about w/respect to building for the ages?
Replies
building for the ages?
Frankly, I don't worry about it. Building things that "look" like they will last is enough for me. But, I don't build large pieces of furniture, so my attitude may be distorted.
Cirelloman, I don't use
Cirelloman,
I don't use modern adhesives on pieces I build for posterity. I built a entertainment center 4 years ago, and used white glue on it. Since the average Twinkie will last longer than an entertainment center, the longevity of the glue wasn't an issue, but I still felt as if I were doing something wrong, by not using hide glue. Since most of my projects are joined and assembled like furniture of 200 plus years ago, I have no doubt they will survive in the same condition as those originals.
Recently, I have begun to wonder if my use of varnish and water based finishes is not a mistake. I have always used shellac for the bulk of my finishing, but I thought it unsuited for table tops. Then, a few weeks ago, I saw an early piece that I made (c.1997, if you can call that early) that was finished overall with shellac. The owners are not what I would call careful, in fact I was shocked at the dents and dings on this table. Despite that lack of care and heavy use beside an egress door where many things are laid on the table, the shellac finish looked great. If it hadn't, repairing it would have been easy, which isn't the case with varnish and water based finishes.
This may be a win-win, because shellac is so easy to brush on and rub out, and nothing looks better than a well done shellac finish.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
I can understand the general rule that if one is making a replica of a piece it is going to be wise to use the same materials and techniques. After all, who knows how much interdepedence between those things is hidden by the long years and the fact that much old making wisdom was acquired by practice and perhaps never written down. Even when an explanation is offered the assumed mechanisms may not in fact be true but their best guess, lacking anything other than the test of "it works".
It has to be admitted also, I think, that for every surviving old piece there are probably thousand and thousands that have failed to survive, for many reasons. Some of those resons may well be the relative delicacy of the materials and construction techniques. As those pieces are, by definition, gone, we can never really know what many reasons there were for their failure to survive. Perhaps the survivors are still extant only because they were mollycoddled through the decades?
Perhaps a more accurate comparison of old modes/materials to new should ask, what percentage of new fine furniture is likely to survive compared to the old stuff?
But that is just about as difficult to ansswer, since we can't know the future at all whilst we at least have small glimmers of knowledge from the past (as well as some large chimeras created by historians hostage to ideologies and wishful thinking, not to mention a vivid imagination). ALso, survival may have nothing to do with good construction and materials as perfectly good things are often discared simply because they are no longer fashionable or funtional in a changed culture.
As you mention concerning the entertainment centres, longevity is no longer a great concern of the customer. Both fashion and the technicalities of living now change so rapidly that it seems likely all of what is state-of-the art now will become both useless and unfashionable very soon.
Many of us still "build to last" in terms of wood movement, strong joints and so forth; but if an item is so severely damaged it needs repair, how many owneres will now bother? Modern folk have been conditioned to "buy new".
It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has fixed broken modern furniture about the techniques used. Does the irreversability of the glue mean that whole sections must be chopped out and replaced, with some kind of hidden new jointing technique?
The only modern things I have repaired are the sort of IKEA-quality items that folk buy, use for a year and then find delapidated. Generally it is the poor joints and glue, in which case the only real solution is epoxy; or even a hidden screw or two! But what of higher quality modern pieces that are damaged.....?
Lataxe
lataxe,
it seems that what is at issue here is "ease of disassembly" in order to repair damage. very often when someone brings me repair work it is necessary to take the thing apart if it's to be fixed. this is always made more difficult if prior "repairs" have been made through the use of dowels, screws, nails and lots of glue. much of what then needs repair are the repairs themselves. i sigh with relief when the fixes are minimal. the liberal use of vinegar on yellow wood glue makes disassembly pretty easy.
eef
Eef,
Even with a bit of IKEA tatter, I do feel naughty when "mending" with tough glue and screw. There is generally no need to disassemble the joints, though, as they have disassembled themselves! The fact is that dowel into chipboard or mdf is not inherently tough. Frankly, my default fixing recommendation for such stuff is to advise the bonfire and purchase of some real furniture. However, folk will not comply unless there is a turn of the fashion cycle - and then they buy more IKEA!
But I digress. Tell us more of this vinegar use to disassemble yellow glue. I have thought of using hide glue, despite the stink, for the reasons Rob mentions. But if vinegar is a modern glue solvent and doesn't cause other issue......! Well, I will be off to buy a bottle.
Of course, you may be doing a Tagged Fried here, a la hammered DTs. :-)
Lataxe, still quite gullible really.
lataxe,
my son salvaged an enormous roll-top desk and decided to "restore" the thing. the modesty panel between the left/right drawer banks was detached. i glued it and several other components into place. then one afternoon while sipping my beloved tecate and musing over the size of the desk, it dawned on me that it may not fit through the door and into the house. sad to say this was not the first time i had to disassemble my case work in order to make it throught an entry door.
with the use of small wood wedges and by dribbling vinegar on the various joints, everything came apart with no fight. the glue turns to a rubbery consistency and is easily cleaned up. oh, and didi i mention what vinegar does for one's dandruff?
eef
vinegar and glue
Hi eef,
Very interesting. I have heard that "original" PVAs (e.g. Elmer's white glue) can be dissolved this way and also respond to heat, while newer PVAs (that undergo more complex chemical reactions as they cure (e.g. Titebonds II and III) are quite resistant to this.
do you recall what glue you used?
Pat
hey pat,
all this took place last summer (the desk fiasco, i mean) and currently i have a jug of the "longer open time" white tite-bond. but i think it was probably tite-bond 2. worked very well.
eef
Twinkies, and modern reproductions
Hi Rob,
Wow, the pieces on your website are knockouts, really lovely! Also appreciate your comment on Twinkies and entertainment centers. A friend is conducting an experiment to determine the half-life of Hostess Snowballs, as he received 40 packages of them on his 40th birthday. So far the half life appears to be infinite, and the physics community is rethinking the laws of thermodynamics and theories of atomic particles and processes. Entertainment centers by contrast, like most electronics, are obsolete by the time they go on the market, and double stick tape on butt joints would probably work fine;-).
Do you update the construction of pieces where experience has shown they fail? A conservator colleague for instance notes that "there is probably not a single American mahogany upper case piece that doesn't have a big gaping crack in the side that you could slide an Ipod Nano through. Why? They so often nailed (and/or glued) drawer runners cross grain in a dado. Split!", and says this is just one of many less-than-outstanding practices common even in the top shops of the day. A discrete update of the design seems like it might be worth considering, but I'll admit I don't have experience in reproductions.
Very interesting about your shellac table top. Table tops have been a real dilemma for me. In the short term varnishes seem far more durable, but another conservator friend suggests the performance often declines rapidly after 10 - 15 years and of course refinishing is a major production. And like you I vastly prefer the appearance. On the other hand, someone pretty well trashed a shellac piece of mine with some sort of household cleaner, possibly one w/some ammonia--a partial strip job. Maybe Wharton Esherick's "salt and pepper and oil" really IS the answer...
Pat
I do make changes to avoid failure
Pat,
I do take steps to avoid/minimize failure, but only if those techniques won't be seen on the finished piece. For instance, your colleagues example, is addressed using an ingenious procedure, shown by Norm Vandal in his Queen Anne Furniture book; a keyhole bit forms a T shaped slot in the runner and pan head screws are driven in the case sides. The heads of the screws slip into the keyhole slot, and hold the runner in place but still allowing for movement. I have used this for return molding on large case pieces. I go one step further than Vandal, and add fake nail heads, so the look of the original is maintained.
Another technique I use is details at the link below.
http://rlmillard.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/04/index.html
The procedure I use most often is to make a core from narrow boards glued together with the growth rings arranged quartersawn. This is then covered with crossbanding and face veneer. The result is really a piece of plywood, but it is extremely stable and impossible to detect. An offshoot of this technique is to use veneer to create the look of breadboard ends used on some card table tops. Original card table tops made this way, are typically severely distorted, but by using veneer to fool the eye, you get a stable top that will last.
Other construction details can't be changed without altering the outward appearance. The one that has caused me the most concern, is the end panels on a sideboard. I've tried various strategies; oversized mortices, cambered leg post, pre-compression and elongated pin hole, but none seem foolproof. In fact at least one of the sideboards I have made has developed a crack. I don't necessary see they cracks as a problem, because they don't compromise structural strength, but it takes an informed customer to not be alarmed that their $6000 piece of furniture just cracked.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Luck is Probably More Important than Glue.
Excessive concern about making something last may be folly. Being sturdy of course helps the chances of lasting, but a heck of a lot of mission oak furniture was discarded and burned as "dark, horrible, ugly stuff." Fashion is fickle and I think there is a lot of truth in the saying that we hate what our fathers built and love what are grandfathers made. So in the end it is as much a matter of luck, as much design or craft that something endures.
I watch the process with buildings. A house I helped with, on a 75 ft x 75 ft lot, built for $300,000 was sold seven years latter for $700,000. Then the new owners of an almost new house spent $1,200,000 making it their own. Why someone would spend so much money on a house that was so wrong, rather than start fresh is a question I can't answer Out went the kitchen cabinets with doors that cost $200 per door more than the still very expensive step down. Out went a sub-zero refrigerator, granite counters, tiled floors, exterior trim details. Products and designs, made to last were tossed out as if they came from Ikea. So being built to last doesn't insure they will.
On the other hand, I smiled when I heard the story of Mrs Gamble selling their house in Pasadena. As they were following the new buyers to the door she over heard the woman say to her husband, "Don't worry dear, about all this dreadful dark woodwork..we can just paint it white. When they left Mrs Gamble turned to the realtor and said "The house is off the market." She gave the house away so that the house could be preserved. That's how we came to be able to admire the beautifully preserved woodwork of the Green brothers. It almost didn't happen. It is luck and money that the Gamble house is still there
There is a notion in a book of that title that there is a "necessity of ruins." One has to pass over, discard and let slip into ruin much of what is made in order, at a later period to discover and treasure the way it was made. I suspect many woodworkers hope to pass over this process by building things that have already stood the test of time. Still it will be a matter of luck that our new pieces find a new home and not modified and painted by the next generation to fit a new style.
Peter
The necessity of ruins...call for volunteers
Hi Peter
Nice story about the Gamble house. We are lucky Mrs. Gamble cared and had the resources to follow through.
It’s daunting to consider the many causes by which fine work can be harmed and destroyed, and downright depressing to consider how so many are, broadly, permutations of “not caring enough”, from ignorant mistakes to violence. Making stuff is an exercise in caring and awareness, and as one grows in these qualities it’s natural to want them in others.
One strand in the necessity of ruins is the greater winnowing of lesser things by time’s trials. Ruins and survivors alike offer opportunities for us to attempt improvements. The fact that lessons may be subtle or obscure assures that we will contribute to the ruins, but I think our awareness, care, and labor help sustain the process, and moreover are intrinsically worthwhile, indeed the main thing.
Another strand in this perverse necessity is that we apparently have to lose good things in order to grow in appreciation. In this sense having one’s best work be ruined may be at least as important as it surviving.
Still, one hopes other’s work will be sacrificed for the cause, and ours will have a comfortable and admired old age;-).
Pat
"So how long can we
"So how long can we reasonably expect work to last, given reasonable but not exceptional care? What's the service life of well-dovetailed drawer? a plywood partition? A long grain glue joint, a corner joint, a frame joint? An edge banded veneered top, or a bent laminated component (pick your core)?"
Perhaps about 100 years for really well made stuff. Longer still maybe if the piece becomes either a treasured and well cared for item, or is simply placed virtually unused in a seldom visited room. I guess that that's how many of the antiques, 200 years or more old, lasted so long and are still in fair shape. Ten to a hundred years of service if a piece is abused somewhat, or even very lustily by careless owners. Slainte.
Good points... On my trips to Japan and China (Even Italy) I have seen acient furniture that lasted many hundreds of years and probably through a few major wars. Not forgetting years of purging anything not thought useful by other than the current ruling class.
Would structures such as huge, very thick wooden doors and buildings count? I was amazed at some HUGE wooden doors I saw in China. I recall posting picture here long ago. My dates are only from memory so I could be off... I asked how old the doors were. I was told they do not know. "these doors have been here for about 400 years in this temple. The doors are from a much older temple that was destroyed in a local 'ruling class war'
I was allowed to closely inspect the door joints (where I could). I learned 'the hard way, that in China.. Ask first!'.. Only through tenons with 'I think' Iron? Bronze? hammered over 'pegs'?.. I was told that the doors are closed every night and re-opened every morning. I was also told that this was probably done on the original structure. I was also told that the hinges are original (with restoration for the bearing surfaces.) You could tell that the wood was very old. The doors had deep ware marks from what I would suppose from hands that pushed the doors open and shut ever day. I alone, could not move the door without much effort. I'd bet no glue used!
I saw many very old furniture with the classic Chinese foot worn off to a nub... I would assume the feet were worn off from movement (As in constant use)..
Anyway... My mother had a Singer Sewing machine. Yes it was metal, but it survived her two sons pushing on the foot treadle trying to see how fast we could make it go. We knew we were in trouble, if the round leather belt broke..... I remember a metal 'staple' held the ends together?
I for one only make my furniture/whatever to last as long as the receiver is happy with it. I would think.. We do NOT have old growth timbers to work with! Whatever you do can go up in 'splinters' in a very short time.. IF the wood decides to do it's own thing....
I am not sure if these woodworkers used glue that would last a few centuries out in the rain....
Hi Richard,
Thanks for taking a stab at estimating. Do you find major patterns in why 100 years or so seems to work out that way? Is it just that after such an accumulation of moisture cycles that the wood itself fatigues, or so many glue joints work lose that repair is daunting, that moving parts have simply worn away, or that by then some doofus will have dropped it or the basement will flood, etc.?
Do you think the scale of the work is an important variable, e.g. the big Chinese doors mentioned in another post?
btw, Curious about SgianDubh, Slainte...
Pat
Pat there was nothing scientific about my estimates. My lifespan estimates came merely from random observations. I think most people would agree that Arts and Crafts furniture was often well made; solid construction, good joinery, and frequently utilising substantial and tough timber, eg, European oak or American white oak. Some is still in good condition and some has already made it to the breaker's yard or landfill. Even the stuff in good condition generally shows signs of age, and wear and tear, eg, joint shoulder lines that no longer match up, splits in panels and table tops, finish in less than perfect condition, etc. The stuff in reasonable to excellent condition has been looked after and cared for one way or another as I mentioned in my earlier post.
As someone else in the thread mentioned, much of the really old stuff, eg, 200 years or more old, has been repaired, restored or in some other way altered in its lifetime. There is, for example, a set of genuine Chippendale chairs at Harewood House near here, along with a bunch of other stuff out of the Chippendale workshop-- not "in the style of" Chippendale, but stuff Chippendale himself billed his clients for. The feet of his chairs have been tinkered with, the table tops aren't flat anymore and the octagonal occasional tables have splits in them due to the wedge shaped pieces that make up the tops having shrunk and expanded over the years.
Some would argue that Chippendale epitomises the pinnacle of cabinetmaking-- that no-one has done it better, either before or since. Some of the furniture at Harewood House is definitely showing its age, and revealing failures due to long term wood movement, etc, and that stuff has been carefully looked after for all this time.
That being the case, I'll stick to my earlier "guesstimates" of furniture's longevity, or lack of it.
I don't think that size or mass alone is a guarantee of longevity. I guess it can help, but if the artefact is very exposed to weather or other challenging condition, deterioration will surely rapidly follow. Slainte.
Richard,
My experience, which is far less than yours, since I am only 66 :-), is that your estimate of 100 years for nicely made furniture is an understatement. When daughter got married seven years ago, I spent two years "making" her wedding present. I gave her a houseful of furniture. It was quite eclectic. The earliest piece was about 1840, which we in the Colonies, consider an "antique". Much of it was late victorian. Some Art Nouveau.
I didn't pay more than $100 for any single piece. Many were acquired for less than $50, and some were free. All were in abomnible condition. Drawers didn't work. veneer was coming up. Some were encrusted in dirt. Some were from my maternal grandparents, and those had problems of glue failure. Those were mostly oak pieces from the turn of the century.
I didn't restore them as a museum curator would. I made them so that they could and would be used daily. I fixed drawers, made new runners, made all necessary repairs. I tried to make them as strong and useful as possible.
Those pieces average about 100 years old now. She has had them for seven years now and they are USED daily. They now have two little boys. Many of these pieces were, as you said, left in garages and sheds for long periods of time. Some had gotten wet. Many had things living in them.
The pieces that were my grandparents -- all were used by my grandparents. most were used by an uncle after that. Some then went to my parents, and then to me, and now to my daughter. THese pieces are now as strong as they were when they were made.
While we can't predice the future very well, I see no reason not to expect them to last as long as they have already, which would take them to at least 200 years. AND NOW there is another reason to expect them to last longer -- they are considered to be "special", and some are considered to be family heirlooms. The chests and tables and chairs are used daily.
We shall see. In any case, to misquote the poker players, "I raise you by 100 years." Maybe I am just being hopeful.
Mel
100 year poker
Hi Mel,
What a lucky daughter--and a cool dad!
Your experience suggests a very critical point: ALL the pieces, at ninety-some years of age, were in "abominable condition" and needed serious TLC.
It would be very interesting to hear what you feel the makers could have done to slow deterioration, make repairs easier--or what they DID do that worked well and helped you. Was there a "top five" of issues, missed opportunities, and/or best practices?
We can't beat the house, but help us win a few more hands!
Pat
Pat,
Thanks for the nice words. You asked what could have been done by the makers to have kept the furniture in better shape. Very interesting question. None of these pieces are "high style" pieces. Many are late Victorian oak pieces that are fairly common. Most were mass produced. A few of the earlier ones had some handwork.
The biggest problem was abuse during storage. Some of them were left in storage for long periods of time, in garages and basements, and some got wet. The makers couldn't have done much about that. I got five or six of the pieces from the same garage where the person who owned them had them for more than thiry years. She and her husband bought antiques and he fixed them up for their house. These pieces were left in his garage because he didn't have the skills to fix them.
The pieces from my maternal grandparents were in the "best" shape of the lot. But some of them, especially the big oak dining table (opens to 4' x 10" had the glue dry out. Even some of the tops which were edge glued, had come partially apart. I took the pieces home in the back of a truck. There was no damage to the table's structure. I have a photo of my grandparents and uncles and aunts eating at that table in about 1923. I had to get the pieces apart, re-glue them, make some glue blocks, and put the whole thing back together again, and strip and refinish it. Maybe the makers could have used better glue. I don't know what caused the glue to fail.
The other pieces from my grandparents only needed to be refinished.
I had to recane a number of chairs, including one that had to be rewoven. The rest were pressed in. I learned to weave a caned seat. The caning had been damaged when the chairs were stored with the legs on top of the seats in a tall pile.
There were a number of "end tables" and "lamp tables" from Victorian times. These did not have the best joiinery. They were probably not expensive when originally purchased. Some of the shelves on the bottom were broken, and had to be taken off and glued. Some needed some new wood.
Some of the pieces just needed to be cleaned.
Some needed to be fumigated or what ever you call it, to get rid of lots of bugs living in them. I did that myself.
As you can see, most of the damage came from bad storage for long periods of time.
You asked a great question. I wish I had some clean crisp answers for you. I am not an expert, only an avid hobbyist.
I make pieces with draw bore pinned mortise and tenon, but none of these pieces were of that calibre of construction. Most were finished with lacquer. Some with varnish. I believe that most of the furniture I gave my daughter was never meant to last "forever" :-) . Three of the pieces were high end manufactured pieces. I only had to clean one of them. Two needed refinishing.
My daughter and son in law are very happy with their furniture. THey have lots of friends, and none have anything which is comparable. They use the furniture in a normal way. Their two year old has toys and balls and he has a lot of energy. None of us have ever hinted that he should "watch out for the furniture".
My wife and I visit my daughter's family often since they are only an hour and a half away. I have noticed no noticeable deterioration in the furniture over the seven years they have had it. Obviously some normal dings and scratches.
THink of this. My father is 94 and is still alive. My daughter and her husband could easily live to 90 or more. At that time, the average age of that furniture will be about 170 years old (give or take). I can easily see some of it going to their children. Of course, I may not be around then. Ha ha ha ha. (I am 66 now).
My wife and I have many "antiques" that we bought back in the early 1970s, which I worked on, which are in excellent shape now, after raising three rambunctious kids, and now having grandkis (including two in the last two weeks). All of this stuff will go to my kids. Really and truely, if this stuff is just used, and not put in a wet storage area for decades, I can't see why it wouldn't last another 200 years.
Hope I didn't bore you. That's what you get for saying nice things to me. :-) Wish I could have been more helpful.
Mel
Labor of love
Hi Mel,
Not boring in the least, thanks for the detail--would you mind sharing a little more?
Could you tell what type of glue had been used to make the pieces, and what you used on the repairs? From the sound of it the repaired joints are still all solid, is that right?
For the edge-glued materials that came apart, was there joinery of any kind - dowels, splines, dominoes;-)? Did getting the pieces apart cause any more damage to the mating surfaces, and how did you prepare the surfaces for regluing?
You mentioned non-functioning drawers in the original mail if memory serves - how had they failed, and how did you approach the repair?
I think you also mentioned veneer repairs? Lifting up at the edges, bubbles in the middle, missing chunks or what? And again how did you repair?
Any observations about relative deterioration in lacquer vs. varnish? What finishes did you choose for refinishing?
Thanks again!
Pat
Pat,
I will try to answer your questions:
"Could you tell what type of glue had been used to make the pieces, and what you used on the repairs? From the sound of it the repaired joints are still all solid, is that right?"
I never really checked the kind of glue. I cleaned the glue out and usually used while glue. It has longer open time than yellow glue.
"For the edge-glued materials that came apart, was there joinery of any kind - dowels, splines, dominoes;-)? Did getting the pieces apart cause any more damage to the mating surfaces, and how did you prepare the surfaces for regluing? "
The edge glued boards that I took apart and reglued were on tables. There were no dowels or anything else in there. I cleaned off the glue, and planed both surfaces clean and reglued them.
"You mentioned non-functioning drawers in the original mail if memory serves - how had they failed, and how did you approach the repair?"
Some just needed new runners. In some cases, I just turned the runner upside down. In some cases, I replaced them. Some of the drawers needed to be taken apart so that the sides could be squared along the bottom. This required putting some new wood on the sides. In these cases, the damage was due to extreme wear. Some of the drawers had failed glue joints (dovetails). I took them apart, cleaned them out, and reglued them.
"I think you also mentioned veneer repairs? Lifting up at the edges, bubbles in the middle, missing chunks or what? And again how did you repair? "
I ran across everything you mentioned. When the glue had failed, I made slits, put glue in, and spread it around with a long very think knife, squeezed out the excess, put a piece of wax paper over it, and clamped thick MDF over it. I did the same to edges and bubbles. I only had one missing chunk of veneer. After thinking about it, I decided not to try to replace it. I figured that discretion is the better part of valor. I checked with my wife. She agreed. I had tried to match the veneer, bu it was a crotch walnut that was bookmatched, and I couldnt find anything like it.
I really didn't check to see what was on the pieces. Most seemed to be lacquer because it hardened after putting stripper on it. A couple of applications got it off. All of the refinishing was done with polyurathane.
My goal was to make the pieces functional, strong and good looking, not to make the finish and the glue "authentic" to the piece and the period.
That is the best I can answer your questions.
Mel
Outstanding
Thanks again for the excellent detailed answers, you dealt with a veritable catalog of issues.
Thanks too for a fine idea for helping my kids furnish their homes--at the rate I work there is no way I'd be able to provide so much building from scratch, and the experience fixing old pieces would be a bonus.
P
9619 (Mel) said, "... your
9619 (Mel) said, "... your estimate of 100 years for nicely made furniture is an understatement."
Don't you mean an overestimate or generous Mel? I ask because you go on to catalogue all the damage, failings or faults you dealt with and repaired in old furniture that is even now, in most cases, not much either side of 100 years old. Slainte.
try my best
Well, I do not sell or do this for a living. I'm hopefull what I make will not require a repair. At least I built them that way. For the most part my pieces that I've done are in the hands of family members or my imediate family (wife and some day kids). All the pieces so far have been well received treated with respect but being used (as I requested) I hope they last and some day 150 or so years in the future someone looks at the inscriptions and wonders who made it. I know my kids have already expressed desires for a couple things after my wife and I go on to our great reward and that makes me feel good as well. To me it comes down to how the piece is handled after it leaves my hands that will play a lot into what happens. If the people that wind up with it abuse it, I don't care how careful you are it won't make it. I've seen some awsome pieces in antique stores that were taken and had horrific paint applied to make it "look better" only to ruin it and makes you want to cry but I've also seen some nice pieces that are old well cared for but terribly built but it made it though time! In the big scope of things I'll be dirt by then so that will be for the next group to take care of, but It's not going to keep me from using modern glues. If some guy or gal 150 years into the future cusses me because I made something that they cant get apart, I'll just look down (hopefully if all goes well) and laugh! Have a good one!
well stated,Bones... I grew up eating/sleeping/bathing/reading by antiques.. to me, they were just furniture to be used and not abused. I appreciated the styles,etc, but the drop leaf table was just a table we ate on..same for the rope beds, and pie safes, and wash basins, etc, etc... I saw a neighbors house full of antiques burn to the ground... it was sad, but a truthful comment on how fragile things really are. the furniture I slap together as best I can, isn't built for 3 generations down the road. they're built for the here and now. I'd like to think that one or two will remain intact as momentos to those who knew me, but I understand there's no promise made to that effect.
Trying our best
Hi Bones,
Doing one's best and having a hearty laugh sounds like a healthy approach. I'm curious though what you mean by building things so they won't require repair, particularly when talking hundred-plus year time spans. The sense I'm getting from restorers and conservators--the folks having the most experience w/furniture as it ages--is that everything eventually needs repair unless it goes in the trash, and "eventually" is often shorter than we might suspect.
As you note the environment and use it endures will have a profound effect on how well it lasts, and it must be very satisfying to already see a sense of legacy developing among your appreciative family members, which among other things will probably result in TLC for your pieces (at least if you teach them what is TLC for furniture).
Still, what are the elements of building in a way that will not require repair, and what gives you confidence this is so? THis is exactly the sort of information I am curious about.
Pat
It's just My opinion
As to my methods that make me think repair will not be necessary, I'll guess I'll put it in perspective. Obviously you cannot build something planniong on an accident i.e. a broken window. I made a cherry hutch with two doors that contain 6 each panels of glass. The wood strips used to hold that glass in place was glued in. So a break of one of those panels would present a repair challenge. I did make extra pieces (1/4 round cherry all custome made) from original stock and have them attached inside the cabinet in an inconspicuos place for just-in-case. In the future should a glass panel be broken the retaining wood strips could be knocked out with a chisel and the spare strips cut to fit and finished to match. The bigger challenge would be finding the seed glass to match, but that will not be my problem. Thats about all I can do to handle the accident (IMO).
As to methods used to avoid problems. I try to use sound construction techniques and I love the furniture of old and I mostly make that style, so I copy those techniques but I use modern glues. I feel that those guys from that time if they had had those would not have poo-poo'd their use. I use good materials dried properly. I allow for wood movement, but I've found that in these times most folks keep their furniture in climate controlled environments in the summer and have air-conditioning that averts some of the impacts of wide humidity swings(this is a general statement not a rule). The worst fear I ever had was a cedar chest that I made for my niece who lives on the eastern shore of MD and I built it in the mid-west in the winter and delivered in the summer(huge climate change). I was terrified it would shift wildly and cause issues. I made extra allowances for this and I'm happy to say that I just asked a month ago and she indicated that two plus years down the road it is still perfect. It does not contain metal slides in the drawers and they slide on bare wood. I instructed her how to properly care for the chest and reccomended a polish it regularly and to annually wax the drawer runners to keep it slidding flawlessly. I remember as a kid doing this for my grand mother in the summer. I've seen old pices where the runners are run down to nubs signs of not taking care of them. My grand mothers pieces all worked nicely, but they were treated with respect as having a piece of quality was a sign of status so people took care of them since they did not have much. She had a china hutch that was amazing and I would have killed to get. Pegged, custome pulls and made from wormy chesnut. Sorry happy thought moment. I use dovetails where appropriate, I'm carefull in construction where cross-grain situations will potentiall cause issue. I don't have imperical knowledge this will work, but I've learned from as many places as I can. Mostly from those who came before me. I read all I can and I closely inspect old pieces when ever I can and figure the past is a great teacher. In the end I'll say a lot of it is luck and secondly, I've found some blemishes are character enhancements and tell a story. I saw an antique shaker medicine cabinet that was nailed together go for 6 figures at an auction that had dings and dents and the corner of a bead broke off, so who knows 150 years from now what will be considered good practice. Heck people may consider pocket hole joinery a sign of craftmanship or for that matter its made of real wood make make the cut since all furniture is made from plastic. Like I said by then I'll be dirt so I'll just worry more about the here and now and have fun and make as much sawdust as the good lord gives the opportunity to make before this body wears out. Have a good one!
planning for accidents
Hi Bones,
I'd like to gently challenge the idea that we cannot plan for accidents when we build, with you as the poster-child: if you weren't worried about broken glass in your cherry hutch you could have installed the glass in grooves (like a wood panel) rather than rabbets, and you certainly wouldn't have included extra retainer strips. But you were thinking ahead, making life a bit easier for whoever fixes the glass down the road. By using tiny brass pins to fasten the strips and skipping the glue it would be easier yet, and on a karmic level further decrease the likelihood that you will have to fix one;-).
Likewise, I'd be a little surprised if you don't finish a dining or coffee table with something that will repel the occasional spill. Many small accidents are inherent to the use of objects - yanking or slamming a drawer, dragging a piece across the floor rather than lifting it, stumbling into or over a piece, and so on. You use well dried wood, well designed and fitted joinery, corner blocks, rack resistant designs, protective finishes, replaceable glass, and so forth to head off repairs from minor accidents and abuse.
Good design in most fields anticipates this kind of thing, planning for wear, deterioration, accidents, and repair, but it's always a balancing act: how far do you go, when are the preventative measures not worth it? The more we understand, the greater the possibility of lasting and lovely work.
One restorer friend says, "It's all downhill after it leaves the shop". With that in mind--just as you note with the wonderful old Shaker piece--perhaps what we can realistically aim for is a long and graceful decline.
P
brass pins
Actually I did originally think of using a pin and even bought a pinner and used it in a mock up. To be honest I just did not like the way it looked. This was a one of a kind(for me) with the seed glass and I'll never make one again like it. I ended up with as much labor in the upper doors as I did in the rest of the hutch. I did realize though that If I put that glass in the way I did a broken panel would present a challenge, hence the extra pieces. In the end if asked why, I'd have to say "because" (I just felt like it looked better). Some times you have to go with your hunches.
What about plywood?
Anyone of a wood technology/science bent know about the expected working life of plywoods and/or resources that explore this? Better yet if we have good info in fine furniture use or something analogous, w/pieced and often fancy face veneers and various edge details like bake-ins, applied edges, or moldings.
Pat
> 100 Years
I try to build furniture that will last generations. I assume the customer, or family member will pass my work down at least one generation. My furniture is unlikely to survive lightning strikes, floods, and fires. It is also not intended to be the goalpost for a soccer game in the familyroom. But I have hopes it will last for many decades when used for the purpose for which it was intended and constructed.
This thread reminds me of a statement made here on Knots a couple of years ago. I will paraphrase as I don't recall the contributor or the exact text. It went something like this... When they finally drag my work to the curb and load it into the garbage truck, and the driver starts the truck's compactor, I want my work to break that cussed compactor.
Hopes
Hi GRW,
I share your hopes, but when I heard the same prediction of short working life from three very experienced restorer/conservators that hope was seriously challenged. There are of course numerous outcomes that we cannot control or even plan for, but if different choices in design, adhesives, construction details, finish, and so forth still enable me to build things I like and want to last, then I'm interested, hence this topic. With all the care we put into stuff, seems reasonable to give our hopes every advantage.
Lightning strikes...another one I've overlooked...so far...it shouldn't be too tough to incorporate a grounding wire, esp. for commissions that will reside in fire lookouts, tree houses, or air traffic control towers;-).
Pat
in regards to oak furniture of the early part of the 19th century there seems to be the same problems reaccuring in quite a bit of it. . I have repaired quite a bit of it in the 70's and 80's and iy was the first time for most of it. It was assembled with hide glue. problems with delamination of table top joints at outer edges(moisture always leaves through the ends of the boards first). these things wre in use for 70-80 years. some of these tops were done with glue joint edges, some were just edge jointed. these were a production item for the times. when they were edge jointed, were the edges slightly concave or were they flush. we know that concaving the boards edges reduses splitting at the ends over time. another problem with tables of this period seems to be the table extenders. they all beome loose in this area. reason; there are usually 6 screw holes to each extender, 3 on either end, usually a #12 screw and they all sat in the holes in the extenders tight. there should have been 2 elongated holes on each end of these extenders. the movement of the table top pulled these screws loose, and if it didn't boards cracked. all of these old chairs became loose due to humidity changes each year and they were also the most used piece of furniture in the house, so they became loose. usually a nice clean repair job . now they come in with every type of crap glue , inc epoxies, nails staples,screws or pins through them. you spend more time repairing the repairs now. Lacquer seemed to be the std finish .. cracks on the board ens were not usually to difficult to fix. cut with a saw and insert a slip.
the furniture that really fell apart was the stuff stored in chicken coops or wherever they were stored with no heat. the hide glue seemed to crystalize and failure of most joints
on veneer problems with that vintage of stuff there was the usual lifting and splitting caused by moisture mainly flowerpots. remedy was to use hide glue deluted well with hot water and insert with a syringe and clamp with some cauls or the use of an iron. the hot water rejuvenates the old hide glue. the chicken coop stuff would need more extensive work
ron
oak furniture repairs
Hi Ron,
Thanks for posting this good nitty gritty stuff! Do you have opinions about glue joints vs. simple edge joints for table tops, either in terms of initial durability or when repair-time comes? The extra glue surface of the edge joint seems logical but the restorers I've talked to prefer the edge joint for being easier to disassemble and fix, and of course it's easier to spring.
Table extender problems could have been predicted with all tight screws. My dining table--2nd project, over 30 years ago--is going to explode someday when the humidity swings wide, it's full of screwed and plugged cross grain joints. Hopefully no one will be standing too close.
What have you found about the repairability of various glue types, and what do you use for repairs? I hear dynamite works for disassembly of epoxy...
Flowerpots, I wouldn't have thought of that but it makes sense. Were these plywood cores? You have opinions on core materials?
thx,
Pat
Hi Ron,
All well said about lifetimes, chance, and learning from mistakes.
I'd like to know more about the problems w/humidity controlled environments. My naive current assessment is that a stable environment largely eliminates repetitive wood movement and the associated failures, so that if the piece does not incur damaging stress when first adapting to the conditions of the controlled environment (though the damage itself may not show up for some time) then it has a comparatively easy life--unless as mentioned by another poster it's used as a soccer goal.
Beyond the initial adaptation, how is a consistent humidity in the 35-38% range tough on furniture?
usually that humidity is to low and I have seen it happen. here are those life experiences again, but I could be full of crap to.
I have seen both manufactured case goods , veneered and by a quality manufactures and solid construction (which in this case was tables). I did live in Pr.George,B.C. and well we haven't seen the temp extremes in the last 20 years they were more so in the late 70's and early 80's, they did see frequent 20,30 and 40 below 0 F. I did quite a bit of corporate work there and as those buildings were all environmentaly controlled there should have been no problems. one could see the veneers pulling away at the seams in quite a few instances and the table tops cracking
Another instance when I was one of the presenters at the !st Canadian contemorary furniture exh about 10 years ago. I was one of the first to get there and upon going into the art gallery told their administrator to get humidifiers in there and quick.This would have been feb and was in Brandon, Man.. there was a beautiful yellow cabinet on stand by Adrian Ferrizutti(Adrian if you see this,sorry if I got the sp wrong). It was just self destructing right there in the gallery. all the veneer was pulling apert at the seams.
I would say that all of the above stuff was built in an environment that which was not enviromentaly controlled and was more than likely built in the 55-60% relative humidty conditions. we have dropped 20% in a controlled environment and it is constant not a variable humidity. you should build for the enviroment into which it is going
ron
the relative humidity in my shop right now is 49%, what is yours?
You make some valid points, but I've found wood pretty resiliant and it will adjust to what ever the environment is. I am not as concerned about the amount of humidity but the change. If it swings from say 14% to 70% thats where problems lie. I remember living in St. Louis I had a cheap humidity monitor in the shop (garage) and it would swing pretty wildly depending on the weather. I'd watch it and if it was swinging wildly I'd sometimes back off the work for a day or two to let it get back to mid-range. It was amazing to watch it some times as weather patterns would come though. It may not be a vaiid concern, but in my mind if It made sense.
Nice to be old enough
I have a chest of drawers I made for my wife to match and antique that I grew up with. The original piece was built in the mid to late 1800s. My chest was built in 1981. The orginal is not very intact the top does not stay on, it was just screwed together, old hand made screws. My mom refinished it, stripped it, and then varnish around 1964. The finish is still solid, the drawers and such are still fine. It was built with large reveals between the drawers and the case, so it is not effected by the changes in climate.
Since this was pretty much my first piece of serious furniture, I made some mistakes. The drawer runners have caused a split at the bottom of one side, but mainly because it was flat sawn and through the pith of Walnut. Weak spot. I did a sliding dovetail to attach the top to the sides, still perfect and no issues. The drawers though bind every year when the Evap cooler is on and the humidity goes way up. They actually stick closed and it is becomes a time vault. I have it in my shop now to plane the sides down, so the back is narrower than the front. I am redoing the center drawer guides so they function correctly. The worst issue? The finish was about 10 coats of min wax tung oil finish. Just not durable on the top where my wife loves to dust and use pledge when I can't stop her. I am going to refinish in a varnish so it matches the original.
I am suspect about Plywood, in my experience it seems to delaminate, not sure how to describe this, but the glue joints don't fail, but they seem soft. Not sure that makes sense. The ends and edges will splinter from the nicks and dings of vacumm cleaners, moving etc. Most of this ply is fir ply with oak veneer.
All in all, build it the best you can. Realize that stuff happens. My pieces, built in AZ are very dry, and moving them to humid areas will certainly cause issues. Likewise a great cabinet from South Carolina, might turn into parts here real quick. At least our pieces won't cross the county in a covered wagon and be dumped to the side of the trail to safe weight.
Morgan
Hi Morgan,
When I first glanced at your post I saw "chest of drawers I made for my wife" and "mid to late 1800s"...wow, is this guy named Methuselah?
I really like sliding dovetails: so much contact that even if the glue totally fails the joint isn't going anywhere. Your time vault has some good company, there is a Krenov piece that did that for years until being fixed recently.
Interesting about the ply--do you think it's just cuz the fir is soft?
Do you humidify your shop/wood storage during dry parts of the year?
P
Humidity
Cirelloman
I do not humidify anything here. Most folks here use Heat Pumps for cooling and heating. Our relative humidity is quite low in our homes both summer and winter. It goes up some in our Monsoon season of August with huge rains and steam from the ground. Inside the homes, the systems dry the air in order to cool the air. Most of my wood is at 5 to 8% and stays that way inside as well. My home has an evap that I use in April May time frame, and they humidity goes way up.
I wonder how kiln dry material will hold up over the decades as well? All the talk about working with air dry wood cutting and planning better, lots of folk think it tobe the best. Kiln dry material has a brittleness factor, has that damaged the elasticity of the wood, will it hold up longer or fail sooner?
Morgan
Morgan,
Kiln dried vs air dried? I make bowls out of recently fallen tree trunks. I get a slice of the tree that is about 15" to 24" long, split it in two, and put one half on my big portable vice, and go at it with an angle grinder with two 4" chainsaw blades on it. When using the chainsaw, I wear a thick leather apron because the stuff that shoots off of the chainsaw is soaking wet and comes off with a vengence.
WHen the piece is about 5/8" thick, I put it in a paper bag for three four months. Talk about humidity. It is humid in that bag for a while, but the humidity is more stable than just putting the bowl on a shelf. When the bowl is light (water mostly gone) I do the final shaping, scraping, sanding and finishing.
I have tried making bowls out of kiln dried wood, but it is difficult to find boards that are thick enouugh, and they are darn hard to cut. Sopping wet wood is much easier to "carve".
Three cheers for sopping wet wood. That is what the turners use, and some of their stuff turns out beauriful. I don't like to turn because it only ends up with one shape - round. My angle grinder is more flexible.
Mel
Morgan,
Kiln dried vs air dried? I make bowls out of recently fallen tree trunks. I get a slice of the tree that is about 15" to 24" long, split it in two, and put one half on my big portable vice, and go at it with an angle grinder with two 4" chainsaw blades on it. When using the chainsaw, I wear a thick leather apron because the stuff that shoots off of the chainsaw is soaking wet and comes off with a vengence.
WHen the piece is about 5/8" thick, I put it in a paper bag for three four months. Talk about humidity. It is humid in that bag for a while, but the humidity is more stable than just putting the bowl on a shelf. When the bowl is light (water mostly gone) I do the final shaping, scraping, sanding and finishing.
I have tried making bowls out of kiln dried wood, but it is difficult to find boards that are thick enouugh, and they are darn hard to cut. Sopping wet wood is much easier to "carve".
Three cheers for sopping wet wood. That is what the turners use, and some of their stuff turns out beauriful. I don't like to turn because it only ends up with one shape - round. My angle grinder is more flexible.
Mel
Lunch
I imagine that your chainsaw tool hucks shavings everywher. Bouncing off your chest and up the face guard into you face some. The ultimate in high fiber lunch....
I have one of those, and chunk of Aspen sitting ready to go on the lathe this weekend. Think I will turn one bowl, and give your idea a try as well. I may have to double bag mine, the big dry spell is coming to AZ and my garage shop will soon be 110.
Morgan
How did you get double posts? New Taunton glich or something we need to avoid doing?
hi fiber lunch
Morgan,
The angle grinder chain saw is a lot of fun. Here I am on the driveway, where the mess can be cleaned up easily. My "Superjaws" makes it easy to reposition the log. A simple press of the foot puts a ton of pressure on the piece. The leather apron, facemask keep me from eating too much fibre, but the water goes right through the leather. Also attached is a photo of one of my bowls.
Mel
P,
So you really like sliding dovetail joints!
Here is an interesting one - sliding half dovetail joints! With these you only use one side of the dovetail, the other side of the board is flat. This way, you don't have to taper the joint. The female part of the joint is not tapered. Instead, you make the jont fit merely by planing the flat half of the board slightly until the thing slips in. I just used that in a piece I am making now. I am blown over by how strong it is, and how fast and easy it is.
I do joinery by hand, not by machine. Always looking for strong joints that don't depend on glue.
Have fun,
Mel
Joint Police are coming
Mel - half dovetail? OMG the joint police will be there soon:)
BTW, if you are wedging, don't you have to be careful with grain orientation in the joint, of seasonal movement will tighten/loosen?
being careful
Jerry,
The carcase is put together with half lap dovetails. It will never move. I put two shelves in with the sliding half dovetail joint. I believe this is drastic overkill. I just did it for practice and to try a joint that was new to me. I even put glue in the joint. I don't think this thing could be moved by two large people with sledgehammers.
I have been making stuff out of wood since 1968. I have never had a joint fail, and many of them were simple dowel joints. I am not terribly worried about this one.
Mel
Strong Joints
Mel,
I once made a 5'-6" sliding dovetail in maple. I kept test fitting it, and (this is my worst fault) decided that it was an acceptable pressure fit - too tight. Oh, it was snug alright. I got the first 4" in with hand pressure, then the next two with a 2 lb dead blow mallet. After that, it was me slamming the base down on the concrete floor and letting the inertia from the other piece seat itself fully. No glue in there, and the only way it will come apart will be if it splits or if it is cut apart. I doubt it would come apart by attaching one part to a fixed point and the other to a garbage truck.
Chris,
YOu shoulda made a video of putting that sliding dovetail joint together. It would probably get 1 Million hits on You Tube. That is a great story.
Is the ground thawed up there yet, or do you have to wait another month?
Mel
Quite a sight
Mel,
I'd imagine it would have been quite a sight to see and the neighbors were probably just wishing the banging would end. Probably sounded like a pile driver.
It's toasty warm up here - I've been in shorts since last week or earlier.
Chris,
You have a wonderful gift - the willingness to try everything, and to try it NOW. To me, that is the key for learning anything, from music to cooking to woodwork (maybe not for finding a wife - ha ha ha). I have found that the difficult parts of any skill are the ones that really can't be described. WHen the recipe says, "Knead the dough until it is the correct consistency", there is really no way for it to tell you what the correct considtency is. Same with woodworking, -- how tighly should the joint fit? especially the sliding dovetail joiint? Well, after a few trys, you get the "Feeling" for how tight is OK.
I knot too many people who continually take $700/week courses from places like Marc Adams (one guy I know is over 15 courses). Actually, all it takes is trying it out a few times yourself. One guy I know just took a "Four squaring a board" course with Chris Schwartz. I asked him what questions he asked Chris. He said that he couldn't tell when the board was square, so he kept asking Chris if it was square yet. Upon hearing that, my first thought was to tell the guy what I thought, but he is a nice guy, and it wouldn't have done any good. He would just have felt bad.
If you can't tell when something is square, why would you take a course in how to make things square? How could you possibly not tell when something is square? Just put your Starrett squre on it and hold it up to the light. This is like a person who is tone deaf, wanting to learn to sing operas.
Back in college, I used to tutor in math courses. I quickly found the answer. People who couldn't learn math were folks who were afraid of math. To get them out of their self-imposed woods, I had to get them to get over the fear. I was able to do that most of the time.
If I were teaching "four squaring a board", THE FIRST THING I would cover would be how to tell if it is square enouugh. I would give them fifty boards, and have them test them until they could tell for themselves.
The second thing I would do is to give them a board that is out of square, and a very nicely tuned smoothing plane, and tell them to square the board. A half hour later or so, I would tell them to stop. My goal in the exercist was to show them how dumb it is to try to drive from coast to coast at 2 miles per hour. The goal is to do this process efficiently, so the goal is to take off as much wood as possible as fast as possible in the goal of foursquaring. I would make the case that the world of prissy woodworkers is filled with folks who are obsessed with SMOOTHERS and taking shavings of a half a thou. That is fine when you are smoothing, but only then, and only on the proper woods (others should be scraped).
You have figured out that you really don't need instruction. You have taken control of your own learning processes. You have the confidence to figure things out, and to know that one can't get from here to there without having to make some modifications to what one tries first. You have the wonderful gift of an attitude of confidence and of controlling one's own destiny.
My confidence took a big step forward yesterrday. I finished the half blind dovetail joints on the front of three Lipped drawers, and they all worked. Of course, there are a few little gaps that will get smaller with practice. I was surprised at how few flaws there were. I did try to err on the side of tightness, and all six of the front joints had to be gently tapped together. If you havent tried to make a lipped drawer with half blind dovetails, I'd recommend it. Make the lip large, so that you don't get much depth to the saw cut. The implication is only that you have to do more chopping with your Irwins.
Well, time to go to work. Have fun. Keep on trying new stuff. Think about giving up making furniture for a living, and instead, make a beautiful woodworking school in the woods, on the shore of a lake in Canada. Talk to Rob about doing it in conjunction with Lee Valley, and only use his tools, which you would get at a very good price, because it would also be a great piece of advertising for Lee Valley. Indeed, suggest to him that he take half interest in the venture and call it the Lee Valley School of Woodworking. You would have an easy time getting excellent teachers to come up to fish and hunt and swim during a week of woodworking. The Chamber of Commerce would love the idea. I'll bet that Ray Pine would give a one week course on Carving Chippendale and The Care and Repair of Antique Motorcycles.
Have fun. I said all of this only half in jest. Marc Adams only runs his school for a number of months a year. He makes furniture as a hobby during the other months. He just makes what he wants to make and doesn't sell any of it. That sounds like a wonderful life to me.
Enjoy,
Mel
As Blue Rodeo would say: Trust yourself
Mel,
I seek experience. The only way to get experience is to try. You know the old saying: "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." I have another saying: "You'll never know where the line is until you cross it." Maybe you saw Morgan's response to the curio cabinet I built for Mother's Day. He questioned my use of a piano hinge, asking why I didn't use some fine butt or knife hinges. My response was that I wanted to see if a "utilitarian" piano hinge would work. In my opinion, it works, both aesthetically and structurally. Some may disagree, but name one thing that everyone will agree on.
In your "is it square yet" example, that is what I call deferrance (as in deferring). That's when one person trusts the other person more, so whenever they have any shred of doubt, they go up the ladder to the more experienced person, perhaps because they are afraid to make a mistake. In order to advance, you can't be afraid to make mistakes. Once you make a mistake, then you learn to fix it. I would much rather know that I can fix a mistake than have to be so careful that I never ever make one in the first place. Some might call that a sense of adventurousness.
I once made a 5'-6" sliding
I once made a 5'-6" sliding dovetail in maple.
Sir, what a challenge!
Not that I know best about anything.. I would suggest only make a 'tapered' sliding dovetail for anything that is longer than what you are sure will fit without 'issues'.
I make them all the time for various reasons. Especially for the reason that they also make a perfect 'clamp' for holding long parts together during 'glue-up'. (Now... If I could only figure out how to make curved, tapered dovetails.)
After making many tapered dovetails,of different lengths and widths, I have found that only a very slight taper is required to get a perfect fit. Depending on the project you may find the slight taper objectionable to your eye. My eyes (mind?) see anything that is not symmetrical, sometimes very objectionable. I mention this because I have found that a taper one one side will 'do the job'. Is this cheating?
My two Chinese style (My thoughts of what they should be within my skill limits and tools available) canopy beds use many one sided tapered dovetails to hold the laminated wood parts together. I used Sapele and Panga-Panga with some Lacewood for trim parts. Almost all of the main parts of the two beds are laminated in three variations of the woods for width and depth of the wooden parts. The beds are Twin sized with 96 inch, tapered two sides, bed posts.
Everything was made with my TS that has a cast iron router table extension. The router table is only 27? inches wide. Placement and level of the off-feed roller stands were critical for a good outcome while cutting on the TS AND the router table.
I 'spot glue' in sections along the length of the 'flat edge'. No glue on the tapered edge. A SPECIAL NOTE: I cut the next fitted piece a bit longer than need.. Just in case something goes wrong! Most fit as intended. Some I have to trim the ends off. The 'extra wood' is about one inch.....
I think of a very old TV for this. 1971 spot for Alka-Seltzer known as "Try it, you'll like it."
The canopy beds, and the now working on, Sitting/Dressing benches for at the foot of their beds, were made for my adopted China Girls (Grandbabies). They are Very special to me.. I'm much easier on them than I was for my four daughters.. I babysitted them from about one year old untill about five years old when they went off to school... But then again, they behave much better than my children did on a good day! One grandbaby is from Hunan (My spicy girl) and the first was born in Jiangxi (My Monkey.. She just loves to climb to anything that is taller than she is.)
My Hunan baby, I have a special attachment... She cried for about 27 hours? on the flight from China to Chicago... We stood at the very last back part of the aircraft as I tried to keep her calm. The air craft women helped me keep her quiet when they could. It was a wonder.. A woman pickes her up and she fell asleep.. I picked her up and she cried?
Anyway, she still crys at almost anything.. I feel sorry for her future husband... My oldest just has fun at everything she sees!
I think a child is like 'fitting' a dovetail. Some are easy and others are harder to do!
My not finished yet sitting/dressing benches.. The bench posts my seem a bit strange but i 'thought' that it may be more fitting to very high bed poists?
I live for challenges
But that was a little much. I now realize the full benefit of a sliding dovetail. I decided to be lazy and just make a straight dovetail. Hey - it did go together. A few spots of glue would secure the tapered dovetail without causing the wood to swell and make the fit too tight. And you make a good point about using an extra-long board which you can later trim to length.
Somehow I sent you the same message twice. I tried to delete it, but no luck. They made me put something in the comment field. Oh well.
Great Thread ! Way to Go Cirelloman !
Like I said.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled