I was thinking of building a bench with Ipe since it might see some outdoor use. The latest FWW issue has an article on the subject. I was curious, due to the tight grain, are there any issues with the strength of glue joints along an edge joint that I should be aware of?
Regarding finish, I was thinking of using a spar vanish, or would it be best to just leave the wood unfinished?
Thanks,
Steve
Replies
Steve, ipe is an exceptionally dense wood and like most dense woods it doesn't allow adhesives to achieve a particularly strong mechanical bond...but it performs much better in this respect than oily woods such as teak or rosewood. The joinery in your design should accomodate this limitation. In other words, don't rely totally on adhesives for holding parts together at points that will experience high stress.
As for durability, ipe is one of the world's most decay resistant species and doesn't need a finish for any functional reason. When exposed to weather it will tend to gray over time. A finish would retard this process, but it isn't necessary in the protective sense. The only caution is, one of the wood's extractives (lapachol) is reported to interact with alkalines to produce dark pigments, so I guess I would be a little timid about using unfinished ipe furniture around swimming pools where it might be exposed to chlorine (to avoid the risk of it getting blotchy)...but not owning a pool, I can't speak from experience. If uniformly exposed to an alkaline, it might simply develop a nice dark patina over time.
Jon,
Thanks for the advise. I'll be edge joining several boards to make two seats that will be hinged. The seats can be lifted to access a storage compartment below. Therefore the seats need to be sturdy. I was planning to use biscuits to strengthen the joint, but perhaps I should create a tongue and grove for added strength.
Question, when working with Ipe, there is a fine yellow powder, I'm assuming it's the lapachol you described. If the wood is unfinished, would this irritate exposed skin that may come in contact with it?
Thanks,
Steve
Steve, I'd agree that a T&G joint would be superior to biscuits, since it would be continuous.
The yellow compound in the vessel lines contains lapachol and in fact this is an important feature to look for in identifying the wood (since trying to relying on its color as a clue is a real crapshoot.) I suppose, if an individual were extremely sensitive to lapachol, contact with even a minute amount of it could cause a reaction (contact dermatitis), but I think the more serious risk is inhaling the fine dust while working with the wood. Experiment with it a couple of times spead over a day or two (exposing yourself to very limited amounts of the dust) before you plunge into the project.
Allergic reactions don't typically show up the first time you are introduced to an allergen, but often get worse with repeated exposure. I don't mean to scare you off. There are many woods substantially more toxic than ipe (parts of the plant are actually used as a folk medicine in Latin America), but better safe than sorry.
To avoid beating around the bush, Ipe(s) ----- there are lots of them, and they are all a bitch to work with, and they're hard on tools, they're hard on cutting edges, and they're hard on everything that touches them. They all stink like a rancid dog turd, and I'll be perfectly happy never to work with the stuff again. But then I had to rough saw it, square it, cut joints, work mouldings, plane, scrape and finish it, etc.. Basically the stuff is a pig, but it is durable, and that's about the only thing that I can think of that it's got going for it, except that it's readily available., Burning ipe forests for the sole purpose of producing grassland for cattle ranches might be a good option, ha, ha. Give me a bit of a teak job for ease of workability anyday. Slainte, RJ.
http://www.RichardJonesFurniture.com
Edited 5/2/2002 10:09:24 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Edited 5/2/2002 10:14:02 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sgian, your sensitivity to the aroma of ipe strikes me as a bit puzzling...coming from a guy who's willing to eat haggis.
Given enough time Jon, and enough determination, and a clothes peg for the nose, and enough booze, one can actually eat a whole haggis in one sitting. Can't say anything similar for Ipe, which as a timber for working with, just stinks, in every sense of the word. Next time I'm asked to work in the stuff, I'll double my rates to cover my additional overhead. As a timber to work with, except for nailing or screwingit as bought from a timber merchant as is, to a pre-existing frame of some sort -------it really sooks. It's just nasty stuff. Oh, and the splinters that caused p-u-s-s-y (it was bleeped spelt as puss-y) sores for 6- 8 weeks didn't impress me either. Slainte, RJ.
http://www.RichardJonesFurniture.com
Edited 5/2/2002 10:40:36 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Edited 5/2/2002 10:42:00 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Edited 5/2/2002 10:43:37 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sgian, truth is, your critique on ipe rests on some solid facts. Because of its density, it is exceptionally hard to work with, its chemistry is potentially irritating...and you definitely don't need a Ph.D. in wood identification to tell from the scent alone that it sure isn't a rosewood...but on the other side of the balance sheet; ipe is incredibly durable, strong, decay resistant, sometimes develops attractive color and it's relatively plentiful and inexpensive.
...Now, as for spelling, I have no idea why you were getting bleeped on that "p" word. It looks right to me...but then I'm the last guy you'd want to consult when it comes to spelling.
It's certainly durable and hard wearing Jon, and therefore a valuable resource. If I recall rightly typical usages are boat moorings in both fresh and salt water, railway ties, decks, boat parts, anywhere outside, even in contact with the ground where durability is an issue. But for me planer knives, sawblades, router bits, hand tools, etc., were all blunted beyond usability in no time at all. I worked with about 35-40 bd feet of the stuff once, and after whatever machining that had to be done was complete, all those items had to go to the saw doctor, and I threw the router bits out. I think there might have been a total of 2-1/2 to 3 hours of machining time. It's definitely expensive on workshop overheads.
The bleeper is odd. It seems to let obviously bleepable words go, and bleeps innocuous usages, but that's probably because it can't discern context in use of the word. Slainte, RJ. http://www.RichardJonesFurniture.com
Sgian, welcome to the never-never land of Taunton editing. In situations like this, I just pick a different word. You probably would have gotten away with beaver.
Yeah, but 'beaver sores', while a striking image, is not what RJ was talking about. I propose instead, 'pustulent'.
Ah Ipe'! Without doubt, the most obnoxious (noxious) wood I have ever worked with. I agree with everything Sgian has said and then some. No amount of durability, decay resistance or occasional beautiful grain can overcome the yellow/green sand-like powder that falls like a layer of abrasive powder to cover every surface in your shop. EVERYTHING becomes coated with it.
As Sgian has said, do not catch a sliver of Ipe', or you will be chasing the festered pocket for a week (min.) You will need a respirator because the dust will make you sure you're catching the mother of all colds. Any and all cutting edges (carbide included) will be almost instantly dull upon contact. And just wait 'til you try to sand it! Recently, I built 5 screen doors with the dreaded Ipe'. Four 37" wide sanding belts were destroyed in my wide belt. This is not unusual, but the norm. Ipe' EATS sanding belts, and I mean right now.
There is much more to say here, but perhaps I'm sounding a little like a whiner. Too bad. All must be warned! Just say NO to Ipe'
Last year, I built 34 large gates out of, guess what. No woodworking project has ever caused me so much grief and frustration. Really. The checking is UNBELIEVABLE. Hundreds of surface checks appear after surfacing/sanding and some are structurally not useable so you cut them out, but more appear almost daily. The wood is also incredibly unstable. Almost nothing stays flat or straight. Really, again.
I found the FW article this month about Ipe' to be just more proof of the "don't believe everything you read" saying. Sorry to say , but I have sadly worked with more of this stuff than I should have.In the future, I would rather stare at the sun through binoculars.
Just had to get this off my chest. BTW the price out west in unit quantity is about $2.80/bf but they should pay you to take it off their hands.
There is one quality about Ipe' that has some benefit. Your muscles will grow because of the incredible weight of the stuff. So there is that...
I was checking out the prices of Ipe on the web and Woodworkers Source has a 1"x4"x6' for $8.00 which comes out to $1.34 a board foot. Is this right or is this wood more expensive.
Dave, you should have done your math before the bar opened. There are two board feet in a 1 X 4 X 6'...so at a total cost of $8.00, it comes out to $4.00 /BF. That's about what it should go for, depending on the quality. Stock with superior color commands a higher price and I've seen hot deals on decking for a little less.
Sorry about that, I was working with linear feet ( Home Depot prices for Red oak and Maple) earlier and it just stuck. Ipes a hardwood and in Board feet, I think I got it. Now, where did I leave that Guiness at? Hey RJ Tell us what you really think of Ipe? Now be truthful and don't pull any punches.
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a 1x4 x 6' come out to 2bdf? If so, you're looking at $4.00/ bdf for that piece.
Syd
Interestingly SBAIA, I just happened to come across this description of someones experience of making a table and benches out of Ipe. They did a very nice job with the stuff, and it might help. Slainte, RJ.
http://www.RichardJonesFurniture.com
Sgian, I sure don't know what you and WB are grousing about. The article certainly didn't bill ipe as a balsa substitute, with descriptive copy like "strong wood", "comparable to the rosewoods in weight", "stone-like density"..."potentially serious allergens," (especially for those uncoordinated enough to pick up slivers), "powerful drying stresses" (especially for those who buy cheap decking and try to turn it into fine millwork)...so, gimme a break...where did I mislead you folks?...Now read my lips: ipe is one tough puppy, but there are some high abuse, decay prone applications in which it is the all around best choice...And talk about abuse, I oughta make myself a pair of ipe ear muffs.
As Jon knows, my son is a contractor who has become an "expert" at using ipe in custom houses, mostly in Florida seashore or other harsh environments. In one very complex beach house, ipe is the exterior trim material. Where it has both interior and exterior exposure, as in window walls and sills, different finishes are used. The ipe interiors are particularly attractive (when selected for color and grain) having a deep reddish-brown tone. Anyone interested in following up on this may contact me.
Jon, You rather lost me there for a while. Your last post puzzled me a bit so I looked back through this thread, and I see that there is a reference to an article on Ipe in a recent FW, a reference that I had forgotten about. I surmise, therefore, that you probably wrote it. I'm not an FW subscriber, although I do sometimes buy/see/scan/read an issue, but I can't recall seeing an issue with an article that discusses Ipe.
I don't think I've ever read an article describing Ipe in any magazine, but my memory could be playing tricks there. Anyway, be that as it may, my comments regarding the timber came purely from my experience of using it in one project in particular--plus one or two other minor uses--- and in no way were they intended to denigrate or belittle comments that you might have made in an article that may have been written by you published in a magazine I haven't seen---- and the possible existence of which I was unaware of until a few moments back. Therefore, if I caused offence, or slighted you, it was unintended, done in ignorance of any comments you might have made elsewhere, and I apologise sincerely for that. Slainte, RJ.http://www.RichardJonesFurniture.com
Well Sgian, the article would have been easy to miss. It was only two pages long...But relax, I'm just funning you guys and not in the least bit offended. Differences in opinion here on the board are what gets all the details out in the open and that's a good thing. Like all woods, ipe's characteristics are a mixed bag, but then picking the right wood for a particular purpose is an important part of the craft.
Jon, I have some experience with Ipe'. Over the last ten years I have been involved in numerous projects with this wood, all involving exterior applications, entry doors, gates, and screen doors. The application is tropical extreme, and the quality of the Ipe' purchased was always the best I could find- price was not the issue. I have used several suppliers, the results are usually the same, an unsatisfactory wood for the type of high end product desired.
I am not intentionally trying to be offensive to you personally, but when I read the article you wrote it seemed to me that you glossed over what I consider to be more than minor drawbacks with this wood. For instance, the surface checks you speak of as being "small and numerous.. and they seldom compromise the integrity of the wood," I have found to be a serious drawback that often have indeed compromised the integrity of the wood. I feel this experience needs to be shared. The same is true regarding the wood's stability issue; it has been one of the most serious problems in my experience, and yet in your article although you mention that "stability...is not ipe's strong suit" you go on by saying ,"ipe's shrinkage statistics fall somewhere between rather ordinary and very good". I find this, based on my experience, rather misleading.
Jon, good luck with the Ipe' ear muffs!
the article in question is in the current issue:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/fw_currentissue.asp
I've made lots of plane handles out of Ipe and made all my lathe chisel handles from it. As for as I'm concerned its the wood of choice for lathe chisel handles. Heavy, hard, durable, takes a very fine finish, and has very nice color.
It is prone to hairline checks. Because of that I had probably 25% rejects for plane handles so quit using it for that purpose. Sealing it with dewaxed shellac and finishing with lacquer works well. My lathe chisel handles are just sealed with two coats of shellac.
It also wants to splinter a lot when using a router for edge rounding. You must use very sharp bits and they will dull in half the time as with most other woods. I have not noticed any objectionable smell as Sgain reports. It does sand well.
All Ipe that I'm aware of in this country is sold as decking material. It is air dried to about 18% MC. I could not find any that was kiln dried to the 8% range. Because of this, I think the hairline check problem I observed may become more pronounced with time. For decking, that would be of little concern.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
The first thing I ever made in wood was an outdoor dining table in Ipe using left over boards after we had a deck put in. To make the legs I laminated the 22mm boards using waterproof titebond. That was 4 years ago and it sits outside all the time (too bloody heavy to move) through seriously wet and wild winters on the Welsh borders and there is no sign of any ungluing. Maybe I got away with it because I didn't know better?
Your right about the dust and the tool blunting though.
I oil it once a year, simply because I like the colour, but the deck just gets a pressure hosing every spring to get the algae off it in the shadows.
Sgian Dubh,
Nice table and bench. Thanks for the link.
After reading all the messages on the subject, I think I'll choice another wood. Since the bench is likely to see only moderate outdoor use, there has to be a better substitute. I didn't want to use teak because of the cost, so the search is on.
Steve
I too was considering Ibe for some outdoor furniture, but from what I have read I think I will go elsewhere...what wood did you end up with?
Hank
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