I’m looking for advice on how to proceed with installing inset doors in a builtin whose opening is not square. The built-in is a display cabinet in a 1910 house which has mortises for doors (that were ripped out at some time in the past), and I’m installing new glass panel doors with brass butt hinges.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
John
Replies
Seems like only 2 choices: either square up the opening or build the doors un-square to fit.
Since it's a built-in, It would be easier for me to trim the doors in this case. With a single inset door I can visualize the process. However, these are double doors with the center stiles rabbeted.
I'm just not sure where to start so that I end up with the center rabbets aligned. Making a cardboard template seems like a logical starting point.
Thanks,
John
net opening
I have made many door fit an out of square / plumb opening be it cabinet doors or house doors.
There are several ways to proceed and the easiest one would be to make a card board pattern using a product from Home Depot or any good building materials supplier. It's call in plan simple terms in the trade as Dry wall shims, They come in bundles of 50 or so and is 1 1/2" wide and about 4 feet long.
Get your self a hot melt glue gun w/ glue sticks and then cut the card board to length, to fit the opening. Once cut to size use the hot melt glue to tack the corners and mark the outside and the top or up side of the pattern, once you have the pattern made lay it over the completed doors and scribe the door or doors using the pattern.
Then mark what is noted as the top of the doors as on the pattern, as well as the left and right door so you don't install them upside down or on the wrong side. Rough cut the doors to the pattern size and then trim a little bit at a time. Remember to put a slight bevel on the hinge side for clearance, for the butt hinged so they don’t spring on you. Also you may need to bevel the strike side or pull side as well. The margin around the doors should be about the thickness of a dime all around and no more, for the doors clearance needs.
Good luck
Tony
Opening is racked
The opening is racked -- the top and bottom is parallel, but there's a 3/8" gap at the lower left and upper right. I'm concerned that even if I use a template to cut the doors to fit, they will bind on opening and closing. Am I visualizing this correctly?
Binding might occur - I haven't had to deal with this situation before. The suggestion to square the opening sounds better and better. Second, overalay doors with surface mounted hinges. Third, an astragal (sp?) between the doors to hide a wider gap between the doors to avoid the binding.
Square the opening
Yes, I'd really like to square the opening. However since it's a built-in, I'm not sure how to go about it. I could glue a long thin triangle piece to square it up, I suppose.
hand plane
This is the reason I always build doors & drawers last. Although, I've never had one that off, but a 1/32-1/16 is not uncommon in a case. You don't say if its painted or natural wood finish. If It were painted I cut the center out and redo the opening. Otherwise made the doors oversize and use a hand plan and cut to fit. I custom fit all my doors. If its out no one will notcie because the lines (offset) are parallel. It fools the eye. But if you have a noticable gap that's not parallel the eye will pick it up. If it looks right it is right!
I should have done this earlier, but I justI uploaded photos to show the problem I'm faced with. The builtin is painted, and I'm not sure how I can square the opening. In the picture you can see the size of the gap, and there's a corresponding gap on the right door side on the bottom. The opening is racked, the top and bottom are OK. The two doors mate in the center with a rabbeted edge.
Split the difference?
Those are nice looking doors. Did you make them?
If the gap were say - - - 3/16", I wouldn't sweat it, I'd just trim the doors to fit. With that in mind, I think I'd be inclined to try to get the opening a little closer to square and trim the doors a little bit out of square to make up the difference. Between the two, that might prevent them from binding. Making the opening square (or closer to square) will require some skill with hand tools; planes and chisels. If you made those doors, you clearly have some skills. Once they fit with a consistent gap around the perimeter, you can close them on one another to determine where the rabbet needs to be where they overlap. I strive for a gap around the perimeter the thickness of a popsicle stick (about 1/10" or 3/32 or 2.5mm). To me it's a reasonably tight fit while still allowing for some seasonal expansion. I use the popsicle sticks for most of the door fitting operation. I use it as a gauge to draw lines around the perimeter. I use them to prop up the door while I mark and fit the top edge.
this one's easy
Man it's painted this will be easy. Shim that sucker. Use filler and paint to match then mount your doars. If I under stand your top and bottom faces are at least parallel. Just like when you go to mount a cabinet to a wall and the wall is not plumb then you put a square piece down scribe a line on it with the square edge in the opening. That line will be your shim. cut it off glue it to the edge. Smoothe with filler bondo works great as it sets fast and paints well and won't shrink. Now you have three faces squared and you can repeat for the other side. Once you have smoothed it all out sanded you should be able to mount your doors with no issue. If it were stained that would have been a whole other issue. If I was not clear (which can be the case some times) if you go to youtube and search for scribing a line for a cabinet you will get the idea. Works like a charm. I've done it tons of times and the cut will be perfect. The key is to put a square board in the opening next to the edge not plumb and that line you draw will give you that perfect wedge just make sure it's at 90 degrees to the top edge of your opening. If it still don't make sense shoot me an email and I'll do a sketcup example to show you what I mean. Looks tough but its not.
New Face Frame
It's hard to tell from the photos but would you be able to replace or adjust the existing face frame to square it up? Alternately is there enough depth beside the mantel to add a new square face frame over the old one?
Trim or shim the opening?
Thanks to you and everyone who responded. Of the solutions posted, I'm going to either trim or shim the opening to be square so that the doors will hang and open properly.
On the trimming option, I'm not sure what method to use--router and straight-edge? On the other hand, shimming is straightforward, albeit with a lot of prep and fininshing.
As a side note, trimming and hanging the doors on the other side of the fireplace has been progressing nicely. I sharpened my plane iron using the "scary sharp" method on the FWW site, and I ended up with a carpet of shavings on the garage floor and a nice fit on the doors--what fun!
Tappered shim
Tappered shims are a good solution in your case and fairly easy to make out of poplar, no need for D.F. especially on a painted frame like you have, It looks like 3/8" + - to 0", plain or scrape off the paint on the inside edges and glue on the shim you have cut to each side. This should solve your issue of it being out of sq. eather use a table saw to make the shims or scrib a line on the wood and hand plane the material to size.
To clamp the shims use masking tape and place glue on both meeting surfaces and place the tape on the front of the face frame face and wrap it around over the shim you have made all of the way to the inside (pulling the tape like you would stretch electrical tape) of the face frame and let it set over night. Fill in any imperfections and sand out.
Good luck if you decide to take on this challenge.
What part of the world do you live in. Just wondering as you info is not listed.
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