Replies

1. 
   bjpearce | Sep 15, 2003 10:48am | #1

   Data,

   Not quite sure I follow. Why do you want a burr on your plane blade?

   Or should I say, you don't want a burr on you plane blade. It will just break off leaving you with a (very small) jagged edge.

   Ben.

1. 
   philpolish | Sep 15, 2003 11:46am | #2

   Hi Ben

   I do not want to keep the burr on the back. As I understand you hone the bevel until you get a burr on the back then you flatten it. What I am saying is that instead of raising a burr on the back edge  I am creating one on the bevel side .Perhaps it is because I didnt flatten the back that well before I put the bevel on I dont know.

   Kind regards

   Phil.

1. 
   SparrowHawk | Sep 15, 2003 01:13pm | #3

   Hi Phil,

   Are you sure your blade is sitting flush on the stone at 25*? If you are raising a burr on the side that is on the stone it doesn't sound like it could be sitting flush or that it was originally at the same angle. You didn't say what condition the iron was in to begin with but I've done a number of old ones that weren't beveled evenly at first and needed a LOT of stoning to bring them to a single even angle not to mention getting past nicks. This sounds a little anal but it really helps. I use a magnifier and a bright light to see if I am getting an even grind over the entire surface of the angle. Sometimes there are a number of rough angles ground into it and it takes a long time to get them all even. And you can see the progress in the surface with finer stones as you aim for a mirror. Once you do get the angle surface even, however, the burr will raise on the top (back) of the iron/blade - sort of like you are shaving it off the stone. Then it's a simple task to remove that with a strop and rouge and lastly put another 1or 2* secondary angle. Incidentally, I don't know how others do this but I flatten the back of the iron first so I have one reference side.

   Be safe,Ken

1. 
   philpolish | Sep 15, 2003 03:05pm | #5

   H all

   Thanks for your replies. The blade is new so there isnt a huge amount of angles on it, I have been at it again this morning. I have flattened the back to 1200 I have used a permanent marker and it is not convex or concave.I did the bevel to 1200 and still cant manage to get a burr on the back. The cutting edge looks a bit wavey under a magnifiying glass.

   I have tested it on a piece of softwood and it just seemed to burr the blade on the bevel side. It seems to me that the metal has been ground so thin with the honing that it just burrs up.

   I will go and have another go , getting blisters now. I am new to woodworking so I bought the honing guide and have sharpened my jointer plane and a few chisels with good success. So when I am incurring these problems I cannot understand where I am going wrong and sharpenning becomes all mystical again as before.

   Anyway I am sure it will get sorted soon.

   Kind regards thanks for your times.

   Phil.

1. 
   BG | Sep 15, 2003 03:26pm | #6

   datapip,

   I will say that I bought a new Stanley block plane a few months ago and spent a couple hours getting it in good shape.  On the bevel side I start with 100 grit and work up from there after I get a burr..and then just hone. 

2. 
   SCFrankland | Sep 15, 2003 03:37pm | #7

   You want to spend a far amount of time getting the back flat. Start with the most course grit stone you have and work your way up to your finest. You want to keep working each stone until you have a uniform scratch pattern over the bottom 1" or so of the back of the iron. When you have this uniform pattern move on the the next stone and repeat until you have reached a mirror like surface that is distortion free. Then start on the bevel with a stone that is best suited for the job at hand. If you are starting from scratch then start with a course stone if not than a medium stone should be fine. Start working the edge at the angle you want 25 to 30 is want I use. Stop and look to see if you are removing the metal from the entire bevel or the the back or front edge. You want to mostly work on the front edge but if your blade is new that you maybe working the entire surface which is the ideal way of doing it as it offers the greatest amount of support for the cutting edge. You want to keep working your way up through the stones working as you did on the back until you get a nice wire burr on the back side of the plane. I leave the burr there until the end as each stone will work it down until it is a very fine and even burr the whole way across the blade. Then use a strop with compound or a really fine stone and work both the back and the bevel until your wire burr is gone. It should only take a few passes on each side to remove the burr and once gone you should have a supper sharp edge. Be careful at this stage though as if you are not careful you could round over your cutting edge.

   Sharpening is a art the takes a little getting used to so take your time and before long you will have good edges that cut like a hot knife through butter.Scott C. Frankland

   "This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"

3. 
   philpolish | Sep 16, 2003 10:35pm | #10

   Thanks all for your comments. I tested the blade on a bit of beech end grain it actually cut ok. I think I will have to spend a bit more time on the back then go a bit finer on the honing. I have been using wet and dry on a piece of glass going up to 1200 what should I be going up to?

   Another question I have is about having a secondary bevel. Grinding say to 30 degrees then honing on the cutting edge at 25. I have been taught in the past just to have one angle over the whole blade on a chisel or plane blade. I have just started a Cab making course and the tutor wants me to put the two angles on the blade. Is there a right or wrong way, I was told it was easier with the one angle, and I understand it is quicker to hone with the just the little cutting edge rather than the whole length.

   Kind regards Phil

4. 
   BG | Sep 16, 2003 11:23pm | #11

   Datapip,

   After the 1200 grit I'd hit it with either a 4000 or 6000 waterstone and then the leather for a final polish(both sides..gets rid of any burr).  I'm not sure if the additional steps are of any value...but the leather seems to give a nice polish.

   For the microbevel you have the steps backward.  Hone to 25 and lift the blade to 27-30 degree for a few strokes on the finest grit...

   PS. the 6000 was on sale so I bought it instead of the 4000

   Edited 9/16/2003 4:24:46 PM ET by BG

5. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Sep 17, 2003 01:10am | #12

   Phil,

   I wouldn't worry too much.

   With the course you're enrolled in, they'll show you where you're wrong in a lot of detail and in the first couple of weeks, I'm guessing.

   Basically, the burr is the same - just depends which way it falls, which in turn depends upon the direction of your last sharpening stroke.

   Cheers,

   eddie

   edit: 

   Here's an excerpt from the link below, I assumed that you had the back of the blade flat, but here 'tis for what it's worth:

   If the burr does not seem to be moving from back to bevel as you hone, check the flatness of the back of the tool. A common cause when you cannot move the burr from the back to the bevel, is that the back of the tool isn't actually flat and the burr isn't being touched and abraded by the stone. In the case of waterstones also check the flatness of your stones.

   this link here summarises the way that we were taught to sharpen - The secondary bevel gives a lot quicker sharpening time, a lot easier sharpening time and a fulcrum to pivot the edge of the chisel on for delicate paring.

   I just re-read your post and saw that you started the course - I'd go with the instructor on this one, as well, he'll pick up on any subtle nuances in technique that cannot be diagnosed on-line.  The C&G course is a highly recognised trade course.  If it's good enough for trade use, ought to be good enough for most instances.  As well, probably not a good idea (since it's a 3 year course) to ignore your instructor's advice in the first three weeks.

   Don't get too hung up on the detail of grit, etc.  It's possible to get an adequately sharp edge with a red Aluminium Oxide stone, sharp enough to shave hair or pare end grain of pine, and plenty sharp enough for cabinetmakers over the last century.  I used to use a red oil stone, now (more for convenience and cleanliness) I use a 1200# diamond stone and do the finish polish with a bit of 2000# wet and dry, just plonked on top of the diamond stone.  Even at this level, the chisel/plane is not sharp enough.  Stropping is necessary, and I use either a swipe of green crayon on paper, which I lay onto the bench and strop over, or I use the palm of my hand.

   Edited 9/16/2003 6:21:18 PM ET by eddie (aust)

   Edited 9/16/2003 6:28:04 PM ET by eddie (aust)

6. 
   ian | Sep 15, 2003 04:58pm | #8

   If I read you post correctly you don't really have a problem.  If the back of the blade is FLAT and polished to 1200 grit, then it is possible to hone the bevel on 1200 grit without getting a discernable burr.  In my experience you only raise a burr with the lower grits.  I think the advice re removing the burr is a hangover from the time when many workers didn't sharpen a tool much beyond about 400 grit. 

7. 
   SparrowHawk | Sep 16, 2003 01:10pm | #9

   Hi Phil,

   Are you sure the stones are dead flat to start with? Afer a bit of use they can get grooves worn in them and uneven spots which makes sharpening impossible. To get my waterstones flat I use a diamond stone. What grits are you using? I generally will use a coarse diamond to remove metal and get things even. Then I go to my waterstones progressively from 200, 1000 and 6000 and finish by honing on leather with jeweler's rouge.

   If it still won't take an edge perhaps the iron has lost it's temper. I've never done this but as I understand it you heat the tip until it glows red and put it in water. This softens the metal. Clean and polish it to remove the coloring and return it to shiny. Then heat it again till it just begins to turn bronze and douse it in water once more then clean and sharpen.

   If it seems to be too thin perhaps the iron itself is the problem. I generally prefer irons from L/N or Hock because they are so much heavier and hold their edge longer.

   Thoughts ...Ken

2. 
   BG | Sep 15, 2003 01:20pm | #4

   datapip,

   I read this last night and again this morning and still can't really understand why this is happening. That being said here are some guesses.  First, you always flatten the back first...your blade may be concave or convex from either side to side or bottom to top..which might cause a burr because one side is digging while sharpening? Second, the only other logical way to get a burr on the bevel side is that you are lifting the back off the sharpening medium causing a slight angle.  I can't believe your doing that...so there must be some curvature on the blade back.  Third, maybe you shouldn't worry...a burr is a burr...move on with the honing..see how it performs and then decide if you have a problem or not.  Personally, I'm doing a lot more honing with 1000, 4000 and then rub on leather and back to planing.... just a couple of minutes..maybe 20 strokes on the bevel side only per blade.  I use the guide to help keep the angle but put pressure on the cutting edge with my thumb and index finger..and eventually, will not use the guide.  good luck

   PS. hit the edge of the backside of the blade with some ink form a felt tip pen...then sharpen and see if all the ink comes off... 

   
   

   ---

   Edited 9/15/2003 6:23:44 AM ET by BG