butcher block surfacing machine????
jackstraw9 | Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
A friend in the knife sharpening business has asked me if I could locate a machine (planer or sander possibly) that could surface butcher blocks 24″ high by 24″ wide. Right now they use a router setup within a jig but it is very time consuming. Money is not much of a concern for the right machine since production would rise. Any ideas?
Replies
The Butcher Block Tops are 24 in. thick? are you sure they are 24in. thick????? not 24 in.long 24in. wide???????? that would be kind of heavy duty
A Timesaver Sander " Big Wide Belt" in a cabinet shop would sand I think up to 4 in. maybe 6 in. thick
If it is an old style butcher block top than it were well good be 24" thick. The best method I have seen is a low angle jack plane. The old Stanley #64 were used for just this reason.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"This all could have been prevented if their parents had just used birth control"
a stroke sander..long belt on over head pulleys...sliding table below..hand held platen with a graphite cloth platen..belts goes left to rt...table slides in an out, press down with platen on work piece..you remove table put block on dolly, move it undr the belt and sand away...get 6" belts from Klingspor..
googled it..woodweb.com
Edited 12/5/2003 8:59:35 PM ET by SPHERE
A hand held 3x24 belt sander with 24 or 36 grit belts for a start might be a good idea. Nothing to set up, you don't have to move the block, and you can hog off a lot of material with it. Folow up with 80 and 120, and you will probably end up with a decent finish.
A heavy belt sander like a porter-cable 503 or 504 (16 lbs) will hog off a lot of material in a hurry, and will last forever. It is also controllable enough for finish sanding, with a little practice. In one of my first jobs as a woodworker, I spent most of my time finish sanding soft pine furniture with just such a machine, so I know it can be done. (This was before RO sanders, and who ever heard of a wide-belt.)
Michael R.
There is a hand held circular saw, Makita 16" saw. Weighs about 30 lbs and will cut 6 3/16". The perimeter could be cut against a straight edge and the rest finished with the router setup.He would only have to rout 12x12" instead of the entire butcher block.
mike
There's a tool company out of Germany (Mafell) that manufactures a 12 5/8" hand power planer. (3-phase or single phase).
And it's yours for the low price of $5,021.00. :)
2 passes at an extremely low setting and your done.
(of course they also get $515 bucks for a biscuit joiner and $910.00 for a shop vac!!!!)
Edited 12/6/2003 6:00:45 PM ET by petmonkey
Wow! For only five grand, I can have a hand held planer that is almost as big as my "portable".
Wonder how easily it is held by hand? And operated? With a cutting path that is 12" wide, and going after the end grain of a butcher block, I'll bet it'll take your arms and shoulders for a ride.
Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
jack
Try this link http://www.woodwizz.com
Whilst they are made here in Australia they are widely distributed in the US
Don
Tom Lie-nielson makes a low angle jack plane, recent review in a not as good as Fine Woodworking Mag! Same as the old Stanley 62.
Guess what the wife bought me for Xmas! Love her or What!!
I have only once seen such a machine about 25 years ago in the Netherlands. It comprised an adjustable frame which clamped around the butcher block to all four corners. From one corner was suspended a heavy duty pivoted arm to which was attached an Elu (now DW) router head, only a small 1HP head, I seem tpo recall. This router ran a small circular saw in its collet.
In use the guy ran the router side to side on the block undercutting the surface. He then thwacked the overhang with a mallet and cleared the offcuts before making the next cut. Main advantages seemed to be that the whole thing was portable and that using a saw blade it seemed to generate relatively little fine dust - more chips.
I've used similar cutters for plastics on CNC routers, they are made by Onsrud and called the 70-200 or 70-300 series, and although these only go up to 2in in diameter I have no doubt that someone out there is making bigger dished-centre saws or flush mount arbors. Should be the sort of thing an engineer could make...<G>
Scrit
Edited 12/7/2003 1:28:22 PM ET by Scrit
Jack
Make a jig, to guide a router, that is a frame that clamps onto the perimeter of the cutting block. The frame must be square and the surface that's flush with the top of the cutting block must have flush miter joints. The frame could clamp to the block with 2 setscrews on each face to accomodate the block's being out of square.
There should be a space (reveal) between the perimeter of the cutting block and the inner edge of the frame, at least the width of the largest straight cutting bit the router will drive.
Mount the router on a board whose length is slightly more than twice one of the dimensions of the cutting block plus the distances to the outer edge of the frame. Place the router mounted on the board over that dimension onto the frame. The router can be moved to mill every part of the cutting block surface and will mill the block to the plane defined by the frame and the depth of the cutter.
VL
Jack
"downunder" Don has it pegged the woodwiz.
Your friend is looking for a method that is faster than a router and jig. Cutting (router or saw) will be faster than rubbing (sanding) any day.
Also, the capacity of a woodwiz, if set-up properly, is almost unlimited. If your friend's company is looking to make a lot they could change their production method — instead of laminating individual 2ft square blocks, they could make a 2ft x 10ft butcher block slab that after surfacing would be sliced into 4 blocks that only required edge finishing.
Ian
Actually they resurface butcher blocks that are scored too much...... Health dept. makes all butchers and restaurants do it sooner or later. The first 1/4 inch or so is nasty, wood chips soaked in blood and tissue.......smells real bad. 100 to 150 blocks a year, since they sharpen the knives and machines they offer this service too. Thanks for the input.
Jack -- Here's what I would do (and have done). Try the low-angle jack plane first. Since they'll be working across grain, it may be tricky for a non-woodworker to do this, but a very well-honed blade and a small mouth should work well. If that isn't feasible for some reason, rent a 4-inch belt sander with a 60 or 80 grit belt and go for it. If the top layer of the table is really grossed up, they should get a few extra belts. Once the top is worked down to a flat surface, it will likely be pretty rough. The belt should then be switched to a finer grit for the last few passes across the top -- and maybe around the edges. If the health department will allow it, a coat or two of mineral oil from the drug store will make the next flattening effort easier, or the top can just be left without a finish. Good luck.
Jack Straw,
If they know they'll be removing more than 1/4" why not score a line around all four sides to mark the desired depth of cut and hog out the waste, to the line, with an angle grinder?
It'd be comparable to the quick & dirty work done by a scrub plane - only mechanized and less labor-intensive. It would be relatively easy to tell when they'd eliminated the contaminated tissue.
The time saved could be reinvested in precision work using hand planes, router jigs, etc., to achieve a desirable surface after all the grossest parts have been removed quickly.
Just an idea,Paul
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
If I were doing only one, I would use a good belt sander and be done before anyone could set up any other way.
For the volume you are talking about, I would set up a station for reconditioning tops. I would make an articulated arm (elbow) that would swing the router in a horizontal plane over a large enough area to cover a top. The arm would have to be adjustable for height, preferably attached to a wall or column, but would not have to be more than 30" long, extended. You could rough the tops down with a big straight bit or maybe better, a 3/4" or 1 1/8" bowl and tray cutter like Amana makes, then finish off with a belt sander, plane, or ROS, whichever worked best.
What I have in mind could be built in a day out of wood, and with a 3 1/2 HP router should be able to mill a top down 1/4" and be ready to go out in less than an hour. Is that too slow?
The square jigs suggested above would work just fine, but would be slower to set up, and maybe a little more awkward to use. With a router on an arm, you'd just have to set it for height and swing it back and forth.
FWIW
Michael R
If money isn't a real big concern try to find a horizontal mill for steel. You should be able to find a used machine fairly cheap nowadays because the whole industry is down. Modify the machine pulleys to get more speed out of the spindle and use large diameter cutters. With power feed to surface the whole area you should be able to do a whole block of that size in about 5 minutes. Using a good sharp cutter the surface will be good enough to finish right off the machine. I've used metal equipment for wood alot and they work real nice. Even a worn out machine will work excellent for wood where it is useless for holding the tolerance required for steel.
Tony
Jack,
I am in agreement with Tony. If they are in business to re-surface butcher block tops, time will be a critical factor. A second hand milling machine will give a nice consistant finish in a short period of time. Also because the material is wood it will not be taxing the mill at all. So the machine will virtually last forever. The cutters themselves should also last a long time.
Count me in on this method. I have 17 years of metal machining experience and this is totally the way to go. Go find an old milling machine big enough to handle the capacity (probably not more than $2500 or so) and a large diameter insert cutter head (even though these guys are sharpeners, they would rather be cutting on the butcher block than sharpening a funky end mill or what ever). Literally chuck the block up onto the table (heck, the thing is probably so heavy that your don't even neek to bolt it..... well better safe than sorry), and cut like mad. I can see myself doing the whole operation is 15 minutes or so. Hey can someone give me a hand getting this chunk of wood up on the mill?????
Rob Kress
I CAN SEE USING A HAND PLANE ON YOUR MOTHERS OLD BUTCHER BLOCK TABLE EVERY 3-4 YEARS, BUT IF YOU ARE IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY, CHUCK THAT BENCH PLANE IN THE DRAWER, LOCK IT, THEN GO ON EBAY AND LOOK UP USED MILLING MACHINES.
BEST REGARDS,
TOM
I too am a machinist and the rigidity of the worn out metal machines for wood are incredible. Working around the outside to the inside climb cutting you can eliminate any chipping of the wood. However the carbide inserted cutters probably won't work as well as the cobalt shell mills.
The carbide is dull by design to make the cutters last longer working metal. Sharp edges on the inserts chip quickly. The cobalt, once sharpened will probably do a hundred before needing resharpening. I use the cobalt for wood turning and made my brother a custom set of tools about 5 years ago and he has never sharpened them yet. They still cut like a finely tuned plane and he uses them quite often.
TonyWe already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
or...
call up your local Wood Mizer guy and have him take a 1/4 off the top.
:)
Time is money - all the hand solutions are big bucks - hours of work for 150 butcher blocks a year. If the blocks are are truly glued - no metal to worry about, go with an electric chain saw - a couple of hundred for a good one - a half inch can be trimmed quickly with a simple jig. Then wither a good portable planeand/or heavy belt sander to finish the job (PC 503 or 504). You would have about an hour into the job which is not bad.
Used milling machines are a great idea as are cnc wood milling machines but the cost and set-up are still high.
Try callling michigan maple,their located in sault st marie. All they make is maple counter tops,cutting boards,and yes butcher blocks.They also resurface them.They might be able to help you out.
This was for the original poster.
A good bandsaw. Horizontal is perhaps best. Or a woodmizer as someone else suggested.
But in reality if you don't have a tool to do the work now and cannot figure out how to do it for yourself, walk away from the job. You can buy new butcherblocks cheaper than you buy the tools to reprocess them.
Edited 12/11/2003 11:52:06 AM ET by GeorgeR
I think we are looking at this problem from the wrong angle. Instead of thinking what can be done to smooth down a rough top after it's glued up, I would suggest looking at the way you glue them up so that the tops will need minimal sanding after words.
Here's what I would do. Cut all the individual peices to the same exact length, then make a jig for the drill press to drill some holes for alignment. Once you have your holes drilled, use a couple long dowels through the stack to keep them lined up while they're glued together. Then flatten and plane both faces, drill some more holes and glue these stacks together to make the final butcher block. All that's needed now is some slight cleanup with a beltsander, or better yet, a stroke sander, and you're finshed in a few minutes.
There are many other different approaches to this as well, but i think the most important thing to remember is that a little extra effort up front can save you a lot of time in the end.
Hope this helps
Andrew
I think ya missed the boat..it is for blocks that have been used already. Great plan for new work but this aint new.
what about the radial router thing from 10 fingers?
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