I am considering buying my rough sawn wood from a wholesaler instead of retail. The hitch is that I have to buy in quantities of 500 board feet and that I am unable to select individual boards. The quantity doesn’t bother me, what does concern me is not being able to pick out individual boards. The wood is hard maple and it is $1 less then retail. But I am concerned that I may be stuck with some wood that is of such poor quality that I would not be able to use it for my furniture making. I would like to get others thoughts on whether to save the cash and buy the bundle, or spend the extra to be able to hand pick all the boards??
Thanks, David P.
Replies
I have yet to be disappointed with any wood that I have bought sight unseen over the net. However, maple at only 1.00 less than retail doesn't sound like such a good deal.
well it depends if youre buying SAB or No1 common. If The wholesaler is selling you 500 bd by grade then you shouldnt have to worry that much. If the lot is varied grades SAB, No1 and No2 then you might have some concern over price.
Im assuming you have the proper equipment to turn the rough into finished dimensions?
As for the $1 less per bdft then if its a 500bdft min thats 500 dollars in savings. My feeling is that if its SAB and No1 throughout, and you can justify getting that much wood and have proper place to store it. Go for it. But if you cant store it stickered, or away from the elements then dont bother...
Edited 4/6/2002 10:07:10 AM ET by BILL_1010
Sitting outside is the remains of the 36,000 bd. ft. that I've purchased. Well over 85% of it is mill run. If you truly get mill run (and not something where the best boards are selected out {which some mills do as a matter of course} you shouldget a tremendous deal.) Just for information the harmaple that I've purchased mill run averages 35% FAS about 30% #1 about 25% #2 and the remaining is either #3 or worse. I pay $2.00 a bd. ft. for select all white hand picked hard maple. (normal price is about $1.00 a ft. but I wanted 16 foot long wide (10" or wider flawless all white) and had to pay accordingly.
Now that's green rough at the mill. if I want it dried, the price more than doubles and if I want it surfaced and edged the price gets very close to wholesale.
You can easily cut out the defects and turn #2 into FAS just shorter then the grading rules call for. If you need 8ft. long boards that are all FAS don't do it but if you cut the boards into shorter lengths then you can really make out.
Thanks All for the great feedback! Very helpful.
Regarding the price. Actually I misspoke, the difference between the retail and wholesale in 4/4 hard maple is actually a $1.25. The Retail at this supplier is $3.75, they say they don't grade the lumber they sell, but that "it is probably(or perhaps somewhat) comparable to FAS". The conversation was over 8 months ago, so I don't remember his exact words. I've purchased all my lumber from them in the past, which amounts to about 2 medium size projects worth of soft maple and red oak. The wholesaler is charging $2.50. Jon, which of these prices doesn't sound right? I wont be able to find out the grade till they open Monday morning. I live in Western NY and I found out about this wholesaler actually by calling a few mills in the South west region near the Penn boarder. I have the name of the mill, so I'll be able to call and find out whether the best boards are pulled before hand or not. Further regarding the price, Jon you mentioned that you're getting it at $4 a bd ft s2s at a local mill. Is this retail or wholesale and what are they charging for it roughsawn. Since I also live in the great lakes area, I'm interested to see what other suppliers in the area are charging. I've also considered ordering from Hearne Hardwoods, but they are even more expensive at $4.25 for FAS.
I will be doing plenty of building and would appreciate suggestions on where or how to buy the wood. I have plenty of room for storage and I don't mind a days ride either. Do most wholesalers require you to buy in large lots. Interestingly enough, when I first contacted this wholesaler back in December, I was told that it would not be a problem buying about 100 bd ft. It wasn't till this past week when I contacted them again and was informed of the 500 bd ft minimum.
Also, what is SAP and SAB
Thanks again all for the great input,
David P.
Edited 4/6/2002 11:53:59 PM ET by dperfe
Once you are established as a serious buyer ( My sawmill asks for a thousand bd. ft. before they sell to you) they then relax the minimums a lot. I have no problem picking up a hunfred or so bd.ft. heck they evan will just hand me some particularly nice borads once in a while. In return I always bring the rolls on saturday, occasionally buy pop/beer. Samples are available if I want to show something to somebody and in general they treat me very well.
For example that 36,000 bd.ft. of lumber cost me about $18,000.00 and if I bought it at retail I priced it out at about $250,000.00 I get black walnut for 17 cents a bd.ft., white oak at 30 cents and cherry at 60 cents. Often they'll let me sit at the end of the mill and select what I want.
My most recent "find" was Black ash for 10 cents. I've admited my weakness on the old post,... Hello my name is Frenchy and it's been 8 days since I bought wood....
The point is you need to make friends with the sawmill operator, not some dealer. the closer you get to the forest the lower the price is.
Dave, I shop around and buy from several mills, but one of my favorites is L.L. Johnson in Charlotte, Michigan: (800)- 292-5937. They are a good sized mill, although they are still a family owned operation that has been in business since the late 19th century. Nice people to do business with. They process right from the log, rather than just wholesale the stock, so if you need something special, they can do it. Their best listed price is in 1000BF quantities and they seem to store their materials in 1000BF lifts, but like Frenchy says, once you are a regular, they aim to please and are flexible on mixed species orders.
As for the milling, most of the mills I deal with quote "Select and Better" (SAB), Kiln Dried (KD), rough, random width. The S&B grading rules differ from the First and Second (FAS) rules in that the board is graded on its best face, rather than its worst face. Generally FAS is virtually perfect, but S&B is plenty good enough for most cabinet making applications. Below these two grades the price drops sharply for most species and for personal use I prefer buying Number One Common. If you're using it in shorter lengths, it's a better deal and the stock typically has more interesting figure...but for our retail store, I have to stock top quality longer lengths for our contractor customers.
Also, when buying for the store, I typically spec S2S, R1E, meaning: surfaced on two sides, with one straight edge ripped. This makes it easier for us to rip it down to the widths a customer might want...Although in the more popular species, I sometimes buy S4S that is dimensioned to standard softwood widths and thicknesses, so we don't have to further process it for the contractors. Typically, my milling and delivery charges average out to about 20 or 30 cents a board foot when I buy in 1000BF quantities of the S2S, R1E. The S4S requires scrapping as much as 20% of the original random width tally, so buying it and pricing it is a bit of a crapshoot form shipment to shipment.
As for "sap one face", this is an additional specification we use when buying the blonde species, such as birch or maple. The contractors use it for interior trim and cabinet rails and stiles, so they usually need at least one light colored face to match up with the plywood veneers. With cherry, the objective is just the opposite, in that avoiding sapwood edges is a big part of the negotiation (and it's a battle that is mighty hard to win on cherry these days.)
...As for Frenchy, I'm not sure exactly how he handles it. I don't think he's ever seen a board he didn't like...and as for those prices, I suspect he has some compromising pictures of the mill owner on file somewhere.
Jon,
Yeh, I find wood all of the time I hate! my revenge is the fireplace At less than 50 cents a foot for all but some very select pieces I can afford that level of revenge.
Jon, my prices are a bit dated, I started buying for my home back in 1999 (feb.) so the price rise of the past two years occured after most of my purchases. I started buying when I was offered deals I couldn't pass up. The sawmill I buy from has to have turn-over, sooner or later they need to pay for the logs they buy and sooner or later an order gets canceled after the wood is sawn. (the deal on the Black walnut and ash are typical examples).
I spent this weekend putting up the Black walnut timbers. Wow! do I like working with Black walnut! It's well behaved and very polite. Where I need the sharpest blades in the Planer, saw etc. to work with white Oak or I get tearout, burning and wind up fighting with it. (plus I hate the smell of oak when it's worked.) with Black walnut OK blades are just fine with it, and don't beg to be replaced every hour.
The really cool thing is a 4"x6" x8' black walnut timber at three bucks is cheap enough so I can cut out every defect or flaw, yeh, I left a little character in a few pieces but only because I liked the looks of them.
Sure am jealous about that cheap walnut, Frenchy. The best I've ever done on walnut was 25 cents a board foot for some sapwood slabs...and that was out in Iowa almost 20 years ago. I used to cruise small mills just for the sport of it. The heartwood timbers you got for under 20 cents per BF was an incredible find.
Jon,
why don't lumberyards stock #1  WOOD? I mean if every piece you built absolutely needed FAS then fine, but I'm certain that evan a hobbiest would be able to use #1 & #2 if it was priced as it is at the mill. I've got some #3 Hard maple that has a knot every 4 or 5 ft. plus some spots are not the white sap wood that's so prized, an occasional streak of brown doesn't seem to hurt it when using it to build a woek bench or something. Since the price is soooooo much cheaper, it seems a shame to spend well over 5 times the price.
Frenchy, I'm puzzled by this also. The lower grades are clearly a better deal for hobbyists who concentrate on small projects, but retailers seldom offer #1 and #2 common hardwoods. I can only speak to why we don't stock the lower grades at our store. It's because our primary hardwood customers are the contractors and they don't want to mess with the additional labor involved when using the lower grades at the job site. A lot of them work on a cost plus basis anyway, so there's no motive for them to buy something that requires a little more thought to use. Also, most of their jobs involve interior trim work where longer lengths are needed.
I suspect the furniture factories are the biggest market for KD common grades, but even they have to counterbalance lower material costs with higher labor costs. It takes some smarts to efficiently utilize #1 common and a big part of the mass production strategy is figuring out how to make things quickly with the least skilled labor they can possibly hire.
Because we're now harvesting timber well before it reaches maturity, a greater perportion of the lumber won't meet the Select grading standards, so the supply of common grades far exceeds demand. It's barely worth processing and a lot of it goes to the pallet makers green.
Jon,
evan the pallet makers won't take #3 so that stuff frequently becomes wood chips to provide mulch or burn in a furnace. It's a pity because so many hobbiests could make so many wonderful things with it.
I mean remember the wood-aholics post? Everyone was talking about saving little scraps of wood. Heck what's discarded to have a board meet grade would supply every hobbiest with more wood than he can use.
To me it's such a crime to cut an 8 foot board into a 6 foot board and discard the last two feet because there's a small pin knot in it and if they can grade it FAS it's marketable and if they have to downgrade it to #1 it is only worth little more than the cost of grading it and milling it.
The sawmill I buy from has several thousand bd.ft. of 6/4 black ash that they'd love to get the gradeing cost out of. (15cents) they can sell FAS but lesser grades are buyerless.
I got hooked into woodworking buying slab wood at $25.00 a pickup load. I found a lot of wood that wouldn't meet the higher grades tossed into the slab wood pile. 4,5,6 ft. pieces tossed because they were too short to ship or had a knot in the wrong place.
If I could do anything to save that wood and put it in the hand of the hobbiest I would. I hate to see waste like that. Think of the thousands of boxes, cutting boards, misc. that could be made with that. think of the drawer sides, or smaller parts that could be made where the average hobbiest uses expensive retail wood.
Yes the manufactured part of the business hires the lowest cost workers they can to maximise profit. those workers would be challenged to use lower grades and the price they pay for wood is modest in relationship to the value they add thus the cost benefit isn't there.
But the hobbiest, why can't they be used? isn't there some solution?
Frenchy, if there is a solution, I think it rests in buyer awareness. The mill owners are doing what the economics of the situation dictate.
For example, how many wood workers out there are aware that black ash is a great cabinet wood; softer and easier to work than white ash, with a beautiful gray-brown color and typically a more intricate "slow grown" figure. It's probably the nicest of our native ashes and a good substitute for chestnut in terms of appearance. There should be a stampede to get it, rather it's being shunned like this. The same is true for many species that end up at the pallet factory simply because they aren't the traditional high volume cabinet woods...the locusts, catalpa, boxelder, sassafras, Kentucky coffeetree, the fruitwoods, etc...there are dozens of species in this catagory and I've spent a lifetime experimenting with them and writing about them. It sure is a shame that our curiousity seems to extend to tropical exotics rather than the unusual woods in our own back yard.
Do you think that Taunton press needs to educate or is it simply a matter of conveniance? I mean it would take an extra step or two to save the lower grades and you're right, the mill operators are just doing what economics dictate.
I wonder if there was a big push on to educate the buying public about the value of lower grades, if there would be any interest in them.
(sermon warning!)
If informed and educated, Americans do change habits. witness the fur buying habits, the recycle centers, etc.
(OK, warning over)
On the other hand, the hobbiest who spends his weekends/ evenings isn't worried about saving money, really. I mean he spends thousands of dollars for tools and equipment to save a few hundred building an entertainment center? So is it a case of just grumbleing to hear themselves grumble or is it more serious than that?
I know what you mean about North American exotics like Boxelder, locust, etc. I found a wood that I think is beautiful, Tamarck! Mildly decay resistant and yet usually pushed into a pile and burned. The wood is stunning, alive with character and color. while classified a soft wood it's got to be one of the most dense softwoods there is. the orange/brown color of a growth ring is accented by the interesting patterns developed when flat sawn.
As much wood as i shove thru the planner, I'm usually struck in awe with the tamarck that comes out. It's too nice to be burned, or land filled.
Tamarack's western relative, larch, is sometimes marketed along with douglas-fir in heavy timbers. It's actually denser than doug-fir and a bit more decay resistant...and yes, it is pretty stuff. The one drawback is its exceptionally high resin content has a tendency to bleed through finishes. Great to work with though, given its strong piney scent.
...By the way Frenchy, that's the shortest sermon you've ever delivered.
I'm delighted with this discussion of Americas "minor" species. Every time I make a new carvig tool or gouge I try to use a different native wood to handle it. One of my favorite cabinet woods is black locust. It doesn't even need a finish. Just rub it down with # 600 grit or finer. Shad bush has a beautiful grain. Just chainsaw out the crotch flame from a piece of oak fire wood and age it 8 or 10 years. Beautiful stuff for small projects.
Many of these woods are found in small quantities and the users are small users. Mayby a hobby band miller with internet sales savy could put it all together and make it pay.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
BeeJay,
You know you could be on to something there, If the saw mill operator could find a buyer for lower grades, less well known species by selling direct perhaps there is a market. Something like cheap wood .com or good wood, cheap.com. there wouldn't be much labor, just shrink wrap it, strap it and slap a label on it. let UPS handle it. You could afford to sell green/rough/ dry or anything.
Dave, a-buck-a-board-foot spead between wholesale and retail doesn't sound right. You've either been getting a great deal from your retail source or you are about to get had at the wholesale level. Here in the upper Great Lakes region where maple is plentiful, the retail on top quality FAS (sap one face, but not special figure, i.e., fiddleback or bird's eye) hard maple ranges around $6.00 /BF and I've been buying it from a local mill for under $4.00 /000 KD S2S.
Dave, the good thing about not being able to pick out your boards, is that no one else picked through them before you got there.
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