I was all ready to order some flakes from shellac.net and it seems they had their phone turned off. Can you folks suggest some where else to buy them?
Thanks, Greg
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I'd check out http://www.homesteadfinishing.com. That's Jeff Jewitts site.
Spindle,
I've used shellac as a sealer for years and, more recently, have used it as the final finish as well. After comparing the cost of flakes vs ready-mixed cans at the home center, I've opted to use the pre-mixed shellac because it's cheaper. I expected the flakes to be less costly, but that's not the case.
For comparison, I used the typical price of about $20 for a pound of blonde flakes. One pound in a gallon of denatured alcohol makes a 1lb cut. A quart of pre-mixed, 3lb cut shellac costs $9. To make one quart of 3lb cut requires 12oz (3/4 lb) of flakes, so the cost would be $15 to mix it myself.
OK, so I'm cheap! I admit it! lol
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting
Mensa Member
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Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I don't see cheap anywhere; the world doesn't need more waste....
Lets do the math (which by the way I stink at so correct me if Im wrong) -
Dewaxed Super Blonde - $20/lb
Denatured Alchohol - $14/gal.
Zinsner - $9 for 3lb cut in a quart size metal can with a shelf life of 3 months
Denatured Alchohol - $14/gal multiply by 2 or 3 to reduce to one pound cut
Id say as far as prices go, its pretty close. As for suppliers, one of the few over priced places I found is called woodfinishsupply.com As an added bonus, this guy sells about every shellac you can think of and sells 1/4 and 1/2 pound bags.
Zinsser shelf life is 3 years -- read the can.
If the cost is comparable, why not buy pre-mixed if you can get it in the color you want?
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill, I've tested that 3-year claim, and it's valid! Works just fine 2 years and 11 months later, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi, Jamie.
That's good to know! None of it has lasted me that long yet -- as bad as I am about keeping things! One can I got a couple of months ago was about 9 months old -- didn't check the manufacture date on the bottom of the can -- it worked fine.
Best Regards,Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Member of Mensa and Florida West Coast Woodworkers ClubClick Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Dewaxed Super Blonde - $20/lb
Denatured Alchohol - $14/gal.
Zinsner - $9 for 3lb cut in a quart size...
Denatured Alchohol - $14/gal multiply by 2 or 3 to reduce to one pound cut
Well, you asked... I think this is more accurate.
Flakes = $34 for 1 gal of 1# cut. (20+14)
Premixed = $21.33 for 1 gal 1# cut. (9+14/2)*4/3. It takes 1Q 3# and 2Q alcohol to make 3/4 gal 1# cut. Assuming you don't throw away the extra half gal alcohol...
Economics alone says premixed, but the choices are very limited!
Edited 4/3/2006 12:20 am ET by spf
It is a bit on the trivia side to point out, but the calculations aren’t exactly right. The reason is that the calculations ignore the volume contributed by the shellac in the alcohol mix.
Converting 3 lb. cut to 1 lb. cut calls for mixing three parts alcohol to two parts liquid shellac. To end up with one gallon of liquid shellac calls for 2.4 quarts of alcohol plus 1.6 quarts of 3 lb. cut shellac. Using $9 per quart for shellac and $3.50 per quart for alcohol this is $14.40 ($9 x 1.6 quarts) for the liquid shellac, and $8.40 ($3.50 x 2.4) for the denatured alcohol. The total is $22.80 for a gallon on 1 lb. cut. This would be shellac with wax.
For dewaxed shellac you would have to start with Seal Coat, which is 2 lb. cut. To get to one lb. cut you would have to mix 3 parts liquid shellac with 2 parts alcohol. The cost of this would be $27.20 using the same prices i.e. 2.4 quarts shellac @ $9.00 plus 1.6 quarts alcohol @ $3.50. (Although SealCoat is a thinner cut, it is priced the same (or $0.50 higher) per quart.
Starting with flakes. The addition of 1 lb. of flakes to 1 gallon of alcohol will be more than a gallon of liquid shellac and roughly 8 percent of that volume (or about 11% by weight) will be attributed to the shellac solids. This implies that to mix one gallon of 1 lb. cut you would add 0.80 lbs. of dry shellac to about 0.92 gallons of denatured alcohol. Pricing for this would be $16 for the dry shellac and $12.88 for a total of $28.88. (This flakes calculation required a bit of guesstimation of the proportions so that a truly accurate calculation could differ by a modest amount.)
Mol- al verses Mol- ar. You are right of course, and this is why I didn't do very well in chemestry class. Good job.
Thanks for your reply's. I was wanting to try some different colors. Like garnet on cherry. Guess I'll stick to the home centers being basically cheap myself.
Greg
Spindle,
Zinsser shellac is made only in Amber and Clear. I've been using Clear because I don't want a lot of color from the shellac in some applications. An advantage of using shellac is being able to tint it with dyes such as TransTint to achieve the desired color for specific applications.
Now, to a pet peeve of mine. To quote a famous Forum contributor: "Putting stain [dye or whatever] on cherry is like putting a burlap bag over Shania Twain".
Cherry has it's own natural patina that develops in time and will give it a richer appearance than anything we humans can do to it. Living in Florida gives me the opportunity to put cherry pieces in the Sun for several hours to 'kick-start' the finish process. In Northern realms, it may require additional days in the Sun or near a window in Winter to achieve a similar appearance. Remember, patience is a virtue!
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Bill,I agree about Shania Twain and dying cherry. lol. Still new at this and wanted to expirement a little and see about getting the grain to pop. I've used BLO and orange shellac on some smaller stuff on the lathe and been happy with the results.Thanks,
Greg
Spindle,
I use BLO/Naphtha in a 1/1 mix to pop the grain. Thinning BLO helps it soak deep into the wood and using naphtha makes it dry a little quicker. I usually apply the mix in my driveway to get the benefit of the Sun warming the wood and the oil mixture. Depending on what I see on a particular project, I might do a second application of BLO/Naphtha after a half hour to even out the distribution. Then, I wipe every few minutes until the oil stops seeping out of the wood. I let the pieces sit for a few days before applying topcoat.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Edited 3/3/2006 6:32 am ET by BArnold
But both Clear and Amber have wax in them. And, the Clear has been bleached. a process that shortens the shelf life of the mixed shellac. Only the SealCoat shellac is dewaxed.
For that matter I am always sceptical of free lunches. Zinsser has a virtual monopoly on pre-mixed shellac, I find it hard to believe it isn't cheaper because it uses lower grade shellac.
Steve,
I don't disagree about the free lunch. Zinsser has been around seemingly forever and has a reputation for good products. Their purchase of a boatload of shellac at a time yields economy well beyond the hobbyist buying a pound at a time.
Zinsser quotes the shelf life of both Sealcoat and the Amber/Clear Shellac as three years.
Regards,
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Homestead finishing now offers a premix shellac in concentrate form. You still need to reduce it, but no more waiting for shellac to disolve
Thats true, and it looks like a good product. The only problem is that the esterfication clock is running, so that if you don't use it all fairly quickly, you may have problems. With flakes you have a better chance of mixing just what you need in the near term.
Bill;
There is a vast difference between dying/staining a piece of cherry dark and putting garnet shellac over it.
Jim
Whatever!
Bill Arnold - Custom WoodcraftingMensa Member Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
Just a question of aesthetics - If dying or staining is wrong (i presume because it adds artifical color) why is coating with 6 coats of garnet shellac ok? ;)
I've only used blonde shellac, so I have no opinion about "6 coats of garnet shellac".
My opinion about dying and/or staining cherry and many other woods is shared by many woodworkers. If you want to use something to cover the natural beauty of wood, then go for it!
Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
I once told my instructor that I liked the color of natural wood the best and you know what he told me? He said (and this is not a comment on your skills or knowledge) "Chris, most people who say that dont know too much about finishing". Wasnt sure whether I should be insulted or not. Now, I think if you can effectively mimic the color of 200 year old cherry walnut maple whatever without going to crazy then why not?
In any case, heres what I found about the shelf life of shellac. Not sure how much is true and I wonder how Bulls Eye has managed to prolong the life of something with a natural shelf life of 18 mths. I was always under the impression that the shellac had chemical reaction with metal of can which drastically shorten shelf life. Also told that leaving shellac in aluminum spray can for more than a few hours at a time can ruin shellac. Wonder if they use the same kind of preservatives found in twinkies?
"Freshly made shellac dries very quickly to a hard, durable and water-resistant finish. However, because it is a natural material, shellac is also perishable and after six months an ordinary solution of shellac and alcohol begins to undergo a chemical change: it gradually takes longer to dry; the dried film is softer and more prone to scratches and water damage. This change is even more pronounced for bleached shellac. After 18 months it may take hours to dry or not even dry at all and is considered to have expired. Exposure to heat also accelerates the expiration process.
Zinsser research chemists have succeeded in prolonging the shelf life of shellac in two ways: the first involves a specially formulated solution; the second involves a patented process (U.S. Patent No. 6,348,217 issued 19 February 2002) for the production of the resin itself.
Bulls Eye Shellac is the only pre-mixed shellac in the world guaranteed to dry quickly to a hard, durable, finish for 3 years after the date of manufacture. However, since storage conditions can greatly affect the shelf life of our shellac always check the manufacturing date to find the freshest Bulls Eye Shellac and apply some of the product to a test surface to check the dry time and film hardness.
To ensure the long life of Bulls Eye Shellac keep the container tightly closed and store in a cool, dry place where the temperature does not exceed 75o F. Extreme heat can ruin shellac in less than a week. There is no need to worry about cold weather: since shellac is alcohol-based it is unaffected by freezing temperatures."
http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/author/zinsser/shellac.shtm
"I once told my instructor that I liked the color of natural wood the best and you know what he told me? He said (and this is not a comment on your skills or knowledge) "Chris, most people who say that dont know too much about finishing". Wasnt sure whether I should be insulted or not. Now, I think if you can effectively mimic the color of 200 year old cherry walnut maple whatever without going to crazy then why not?"
You're comparing apples and oranges! Finishing a new piece that is not intended to mimic a 200 year old piece is one thing, whereas building a period piece and then making it look 200 years old is entirely different. There are those who design beautiful pieces made from cherry and then put such a dark stain on them they may as well be poplar -- that's ludicrous!
I use stain when I feel it's appropriate. For instance, on mahogany. While mahogany will, in time, develop a natural patina it seems to need a bit more help up front.
My opinion is just that -- my opinion -- and it's shared by many people more knowledgeable than myself.
Regards,Bill Arnold - Custom Woodcrafting Click Here if you're interested in a good, inexpensive website host.
Food for Thought: The Ark was built by amateurs; the Titanic by professionals.
we just used some older shellac [prepared in a "tin" can] and on some oak it and the tannic acid in the oak produced a grey/black tint to the oak. this also happened to some butternut some years ago. the shellac hardened okay, but the wood turned black/gray especially in the veins. sorry about grey or gray.
Homestead is a great place to get different shades of shellac. Di you look at their shellac page?? The "H" panel shows "Dewaxed Dark Garnet" on various woods. What's not to like? ;-)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm in the same boat, shellac.net was my supplier.
I'm going to switch to homesteadfinishing.com ; his prices are a little higher, but he also has an economical option of buying pre-mixed dark or pale shellac.
Zinsser shellac is fine, but the stuff in cans is waxed and, in my experience, doesn't pad on as well as the stuff I make up myself. I use the Zinsser stuff as stock stuff, but use my own mix for anything that's "quality." Plus, as others have pointed out, you get blond or amber from Zinsser. I like having Garnet, lemon and other hues, though you could always add dye to clear shellac to get the same effect.
I have done French polishing for years and have used both the self mixed from flakes, and the Zinsser clear shellac. I let the can sit for a few weeks and carefully open it, to allow the wax, which settles to the bottom to stay there. I use a cup to ladle out the clear shellac on top (supernatant) which is effectively de-waxed. If you agitate it the wax mixes in and the soloution becomes yellowish and opaque (although it still dries clear.) I think it pads better if dewaxed. I thin the 3 lb cut from the can to about 2 lb for spraying, using Home Depot grade denatured alcohol. I can't tell any difference in the results compared to the flakes I mix myself. (And can't tell any difference between the cheap alcohol and the expensive Behkhol sold by woodworker's supply and others.)
Good luck.
Jay
I've considered decanting off the top to dewax the Zinsser stuff, but never tried it. I have a can or two open, so maybe I'll try it.
Curious -- what # cut do you pad with? I use a 2# cut and it works very well, though it takes 6 coats or more for a strong finish.Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I use about a 2 lb cut and do traditional French polishing, with pumice dust. I had been lubricating the pad with mineral oil, but found upon advice from someone in this forum that extra virgin olive oil from the kitchen works much better and doesn' fog the finish. If you are not familiar with this method, there are many sources on the technique, and it's worth learning.
Good luck.
Jay
I have had several friends order it online from them.
When decanting the dewaxed shellac off the top, is the cut now any less than it was? I guess what I am asking is - Will flakes dissolved in alcohol settle out of solution like the wax?
I have mixed a few different cuts for my projects from the Zinsser stuff in the cans, and have skimmed off the top a few times. Often the skimmed stuff winds up all together at the end of a project and goes into a jar I use as sanding sealer. What to do with all the heavily waxed shellac that is left over? I have thought of going into the candy business, but don't have time to add another hobby to my day.
Andy
"It seemed like a good idea at the time"
Edited 3/7/2006 6:09 pm ET by AndyE
The flakes, once dissolved and in solution should be permanently dissolved at a given temperature. The "cut" should not be affected. The heavily waxed liquid at the bottom is garbage, unless you want to try to use it as endgrain sealer on green wood, eg, for bowl turning. I havn't actually tried that but it was just a thought.
Jay
Another use for the gunk on the bottom when you mix the shellac is a finish forwood shop jigs. Makes them slide easily over tool surfaces.
Not my idea I think I saw it in FW some time ago.Troy
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