I am building cabinets for several places in my home ( garage, basement laundry and pantry) I would like to avoid pocket holes in my construction. In several places, I will be able to see the sides of the cabinets so I want the to be clean and patch free. I feel I will make the garage cabinets faceless and the other faced but might use a mortise and tenon for the frames and get fancier with the doors.
I also do not own any pneumatic tools and was never a lover of Brad nails. I also always leave hammer marks when nailing by hand.
I have seen a guy build a top cabinet using dadoes and rabbets – no nails or screws, just glue and clamps.
would this be ok?
must I use a dado for the top or would a rabbet also work fine?
when it comes to floor standing cabinets, I have never seen this approach of just glueing done. I always see the stretchers installed with pocket hole screws.
can I do the same and just route short rabbets for the stretchers?
Should I use dowels on the stretchers?
can you build upper and lower cabinets with just glue or would you think that joint would eventually fail over time?
can I avoid fasteners being seen either from the outside or inside?
thank you for your help
Frank
Replies
Also, if I need to use dowels, please suggest a jig, preferably not too expensive.
Thanks
Rabbets work well, they adequately increase glue surface and aid in alignment. Cases made with rabbets (including rabbeting in the back) are square and strong, in my experience.
Biscuits also work well, many professional shops just use glued in biscuits for joinery of pre-finished components. Coupled with a rabbeted in back and face frame, that is more than strong enough.
You could use pocket holes if your sides are visible by pocket holing the bottom of the case bottom and the top of the top since those will not be visible when the counter top is installed. Rabbet the case for the back unless you are making custom end panels (which I assume you are not based on your concern) or plan on a molding to hide the back edge.
Other options are biscuits, dowels, or loose tenons like dominoes.
Cabinets were built for several centuries without use of pocket screws, so it’s a safe bet you can to. I certainly did for a few decades before buying the least expensive Kreg jig.
Honestly I use biscuits more often.
Although if YouTube is your guide you would be forgiven thinking even a making a cutting board isn’t possible without pocket screws, and probably a Domino, too.
In plywood cabinets, nails and screws are mostly taking the place of clamps while the glue dries. Rabbeted construction Without screws and nails works well and has for several hundred years. If you are attaching a back to the cabinets that will significantly add rigidity.
Face frames don’t need mortising. If you insist on it, like I did once starting out, nothing longer than a 1/4” tenon is needed.
3/4” pipe clamps work fine and will probably outlive you.
I’d encourage a trip to a bookstore and get an introductory book on cabinet construction.
Mike
Seconding @mikefm101's comments.
The load to which the joinery will be subjected is significant.
As others have said, glued dadoes and rabbets work very well whether or not they are reinforced, but you might not want to load a wall-hung cabinet with precious china if the only thing holding it in is the glue. Glue fails over time - it is best to assume that in any case - so make the joints in a way that fail safe. It's less of an issue for floor standing units.
Dowels are a great way to do this. Personally I like the look of a contrasting dowel pin so would drill from the outside - no Jig required. If you want the hidden look then buy some dowel points. Drill your holes in the base of your cabinet, then place the dowel points in the hole. Line up your side, press hard and the points mark the drill position. Really cheap and easy. Buy four sets like this as they are easy to lose: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001968774994.html
Floor standing cabinets are ideal for just glue and rabbet construction. Gravity assists in such cases. Most of the time the additional fixers you see used in You Tube videos are for speed and efficiency, not strength.
You can nail without dinging the work - get yourself a scrap of 2-3mm MDF and drill a hole in it. Pop this over the nail and bang away. When you are close to the surface, use a punch to drive the nail all the way.
Rob_SS
I don't know why you feel a dowel joint has an advantage over a rabbet in case construction. I've been building rabbeted cabinets for my shop for 40 years and have never had one fail despite heavy loads. Rabbets are in fact the preferred method of construction for most of the better made commercial kitchen cabinets on the market and assuming plywood construction they should last 40+ years holding grandmas china.
As for wall cabinets, the most important joint is always going to be the sides to the back, nothing else really matters and dowels really have no place here. I do recommend for heavily loaded wall cabinets to use a back of a minimum of 3/8" plywood but preferably 1/2" or more.
I also have never had luck with the dowel points you mention they do nothing to insure the holes are straight and in line with each other. If you drill two holes from the same starting point but they diverge at different angles, and few people can drill a straight hole freehand, you will have trouble getting a dowel joint to fit.
Better to do a tight fitting full length rabbet properly glue and clamped in my opinion.
I would reinforce a lower shelf on a wall cabinet, just in case but then I've not got anything like your experience. Glue is very strong after all.
I make only few so probably paranoia mainly though I'm not the only one - see the blog on the plate rack currently on the front page of FWW.
I've never had much trouble with dowel points, but I've only ever been using fairly short ones. As I said, I prefer a visible contrasting pin.
Yes, the back is very important - half an inch though seems a lot - have you had failure with 1/4 inch? I've never had an issue, but of course don't build enough...
For heavily loaded wall cabinets I would not use less than 3/8"plywood. 1/2" may be overkill but I always prefer to over build rather that suffer the consequences if I underestimated the load.
This is what I am thinking for all the cabinets:
All cabinets, floor or wall, will have a 1/4" ply back.
Sides, bottoms and all shelves will be 3/4" ply.
Sides will have dados for the bottom panel and a rabbet for the top.
behind the back board will be at least two stretchers made from 3/4" ply(rabbeted in).
For the wall cabinets, I am thinking of making french cleats with a piece of 3/4" ply or hardwood depending on whether I want to spend the extra or if research warrants it. The 1/4" ply will be inset into a dado leaving room for the cleat behind it.
I may skip the French cleat if it means I can mount the cabinet closer to the ceiling. I live in a split and so the basement and garage only have 7' ceilings so space is precious.
These guys are my inspiration:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REQId5gVwDo&list=PLc8gG-eMmmhoZnpOyn7gklhiiuTaIPBXb&index=2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcvXnruOJ1w&list=PLc8gG-eMmmhoZnpOyn7gklhiiuTaIPBXb&index=24
yeah, I know, one of them uses pocket screws for at least the stretchers.
Frank, I've built cabinets using rabbets and dados with no additional hardware and they have survived daily use for decades. If you are really concerned you can countersink a flathead screw on the outside of the dado and cover with a plug. I did that on the centre, and bottom shelf for a 6 ft. tall, narrow display cabinet and two shelving units I built for a retail setting, (I don't recall if I did it for the top rabbet). Tops and backs are rabbeted. With the exception of the centre shelf, all shelves are adjustable. Cubby shelves are adjustable and no screws were used in carcass construction.
Obviously dados, rabbets, and glue as everyone has suggested. You can use pocket screws in such a way they will never be seen. Using pockets screws on shop and utility cabinets is done by many skilled craftsmen.
If you are making as many cabinets as you mentioned you will appreciate hidden pocket screws and glue joints in the right location.
Just to piggy back on #9 (and others) if you do go with pocket screws in exposed areas. A finished panel of 1/4" material or can cover the cabinet side or bottom. Bonus you can scribe it to the wall if there's gaps.
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but really everything depends on whether they are painted or not.
On painted cabs I screw and fill.
On natural wood utility cabs, I use trim head screws and filler to match the ply. Works perfectly fine.
IMO rabbets and dados are a total waste of time and add negligible strength the only advantage may be ease of assembly.
If your adamantly opposed to screws, you'll multiply the hassle of building cab boxes X3. I would use biscuits if there was simply no way to use screws.
No way in heck I would rely on glue only!
You can dado glue and nail the sides on or screw them together. Back in the day, dado glue and nails was pretty standard construction and worked well, however I would not recommend without fasteners .
Then apply veneer to the sides that will be exposed before attaching the face frames. Keep it simple.
The Kraft backed veneers work well for this. PVA glue and a hot iron make an easy and permanent bond.
Here is some info and a source for the veneer.
https://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips.html
I am not going to paint the cabinets. I prefer the look of a stain and urethane or some form of sealant to paint. With one set of cabinets in the garage which is unheated and the others all in the basement which goes through humidity swings, what would you suggest?
If I am going to use a French cleat(3/4" ply), is it still necessary to use something thicker than 1/4" ply for the back? The back is mostly for appearance since the top cleat and the bottom spacer will really be doing most of the work. I figure I will have the 1/4" flush with the back and the cleat attached behind that. There, I can screw through the cleat into the sides. I do not believe there is much benefit screwing through the 1/4" into the cleat. I could also inset it but I am afraid it would just complicate hanging. Most, if not all, French cleat cabinets I have seen are with the cleat attached to the back of the carcass and a spacer on the bottom. Is there any other way?
Not sure If I will bother making side panels for the garage due to the environment they are in and aesthetics are not the biggest concern. In the basement and laundry, I like the idea of 1/4" panels for the sides. If I make face frames, would the outer walls just be the width of the 1/4" side panel and the 3/4" ply wall? These cabinet will have exposed sides on both ends. I just assume the frames would be flush to the ends. Would the frame extend to also cover the side style or would the style on the side butt against the flush frame?
As for dadoes, based on the comments about grandma's china, wouldn't they make for a very safe cabinet bottom? The sides would have to spread apart for a dado bottom to fall out. In my thinking, the face frame and back cleat/ spacer and back ply would all have to come undone for the bottom that is dadoed in place to fall out.
Really appreciate everyone's feedback. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
I tongue and groove all my face frames to my cabinet sides
that looks cool. Do you only tongue and groove just the styles or the rails or both?
Do you precut everything or do you make the carcass first with tongues, measure and then make the face frame?
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