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I am sitting here day dreaming about making my own kitchen cabs and this great idea pop into my head.
I might be getting a Keller dovetail jig pretty soon and I was wondering if anybody has constructed cabinet cases and joined them with dovetails. Besides the extra time involved any cons with doing it this way. I will be banding the exposed edge to hide the plywood.
Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Replies
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Eug,
I was with you all the way until the part about edge banding the ply wood to cover the exposed edge. Please elaborate.
Dano
*Well, let me see if I can explain properly. I am a new woodworker and learning as I go along. So let me apologize in advance for any and many future 'wood grammar' blunders.What I was trying to say, is that to cover the exposed edge of the tails, was to glue a band or trim piece of solid wood and then do my dovetailing. This will only be done on the cabinets that have an exposed side face, for example the ones at end.Basically, I am trying to hide the laminations of the plywood and make it look like solid wood.Just an idea I am exploring. I do realize that it might be an overkill.
*Dovetails are a traditional method of carcase construction (the carcase is the "body" of a cabinet, dresser, what have you). However, in my experience, dovetailing plywood is a bummer (especially by router, but even by hand I don't think it would be much fun). By router, the crossing bands have a habit of blowing out something fierce.I'm not certain I'm answering the question you're asking...this is one of the interesting things about only being able to use words in a description. ;-)Dave
*Eug,That's okay, you didn't make any "wood grammar blunders". The dove tail joint,basically, is used to joint solid stock on the end grain. Right off hand I could list about 15 to 20 variations of a dovetail joint, each one designed for pretty specific applicationsI don't know of any one who has used this method in cabinet work nor have I ever seen anything constructed in this manner.Off hand I would say the biggest argument against this method would be lack of strength in the joint if you are using regular plywood or what is actually called veneer-core. Without going into great detail about grading, construction, and etc., veneer core ply is basically thin veneers of wood glued together with the grains running at 90* to each successive layer, this is called cross banding. Any who you would get quite a bit of chip out and even the top grades of plywood today will have some voids, this will affect the glue bond.It has been years since I have seen lumber-core plywood in stock. Lumber-core is exactly as the name implies with cross banded veneers sandwiched over thicker strips of solid wood. Because of the solid core, the strength of the joint would be better than the veneer core, I suspect. Solid core is also more expensive then veneer core.Don't know where your interests are, but would recommend a trip or two to the library or some book store and get a couple of books on basic Woodworking.If it means anything, I am one of the lucky ones who actually gets paid for my passion and have never used this method that you are thinking about. I am not saying you are right or wrong, a lot of the "fun" in working with wood stems from experimentation, IMO.Dano
*Well, bar the fact that you are thinking of doing these dovetails with a jig and a router, I think your proposed technique has some historical precedence, although perhaps a little at variance to those historical examples. It was quite common to make carcases in solid pine and the like with through dovetails and then veneer over the lot. The Victorians did this a great deal, and of course the failures in the technique are plain for all to see some 100- 150 years down the line. But they- the Victorians, had a lot of cheap labour that they kept busy, and didn't have plywood,....well, not until very late in the period. In your case I'd suggest that plywood kitchen cabinets assembled with anything more complex than a biscuit or a housing joint is tending towards overkill. Assembled in one of these ways, or others, there's no joinery to hide. Sliante.
*Sgian,Excellent! I have gotten so used to thinking of "ply wood" strictly in terms of what is available today. Technically, one would not be to far off in saying the the Victorians "invented" the lumber core plywood. All be it usually only 2 ply, which could be one of the causes of the eventual failures that you pointed out.That is one of the reasons I enjoy reading your posts so much; you generally address the historical aspects instead of just the technical side. In my view, when we start losing sight of the historical side of our various trades it is a sign of it's decline and eventual death. FWIW.Dano
*That's generous of you Dano. You raise an interesting point though. No dimunition to new woodworkers intended here, but I tend to think that there is really nothing outstandingly new in woodworking techniques; just adaptations of very ancient techniques to suit modern working practices. It still takes years to get a real grasp on all the nuances of premium quality furniture making to the point where you can regard yourself as skilled and knowledgeable. It must be hard to come into a trade with no formal training; just books, videos, and making mistakes on your own with no gnarled old craftsman to teach you by example, hence passing on centuries of accumulated wisdom. I see people trying to re-invent the wheel quite often. I recall biscuit joints being all the rage about 15+ years ago as the 'new' wonder joint; it just looked like, and works like, the time honoured and venerable loose, or slip, tenon to me,.......with a wrinkle or two of its own. Sliante
*Thanks for your input! I did not know that plywood is not a suitable 'routing' material.Sliante, forgive me, I am not sure if I understand the reason of the failure with the Victorians. Is the failure due to the pine boards expanding and contracting severely? If this is the case, how can somebody similar failures in large dovetailed trunks? Maybe I am totally off base...More questions, so even if somebody is able to cut clean dovetails in plywood panels, assuming there are no voids, apply glue and clamp properly, it would not be a strong joint? Thanks for bearing with my novice questions. Sliante is correct about my situation and I am sure it is the same for others. A lot of us do not have an old craftsman to go to. Woodworking, home renovations, DIY, etc has never been big in my family. One of the reasons is that my parents were never able to own their own place till their late fifties and even then, my father has no clue on anything mechanical, craft wise or anything remotely similar.Most of my 'knowledge' of woodworking is from reading magazines, books, TV shows. So I am guessing that I am an 'armchair' woodworker... :-)At any rate, thanks again for your answers.
*Eug, I don't think they're saying plywood is not a suitable material for dovetails, just that it's kind of an overkill joint for that application and not as strong in plywood as in solid wood. A lot of commercial cabinet drawers are baltic birch (lots of thin plys and no voids) and have dovetailed corners. That is an application where it makes sense, strengthwise. The kind of plywood often used for kitchen cabinets, 3/4" 7-ply, has too few plies to take dovetails really well. If you used more expensive plywood with more plys you'd get cleaner dovetails. If your intention is just to practice with the new toy to make plywood boxes for your kitchen, I for one think you should go for it, just understand that there are other applications where it's a more suitable joint. Mike
*Eug, They- Victorians, often made the basic carcase of pine with through dovetails. Through dovetails are the cheapest hand dovetail to make requiring the least skill, time, and cost to the consumer. (Much modern furniture is also made with a cost cutting zeal too, as I'm sure you're aware.) The problem I was referring to relates to the shrinkage of the timber so that the end grain of both the tails and pins either protrude, or sink below the surface of the panels long grain depending upon final situation, and seasonal changes in ambient humidity, etc., etc.. Any veneer applied over the top of these joints tends to be distorted, eventually splitting and breaking off. it distorts because the ground over which it is laid is always moving. Through dovetailed chests in solid timber (i.e., without veneer over) are an entirely different matter. Timber movement still occurs of course, and it has to be acceptable aesthetically because you can't stop timber moving, and importantly the movement doesn't damage overlaid veneer. Through tenons show similar characteristics in that the end grain of the tenon can be above, below, or flush with face of the morticed member, again depending on the season, and age of the piece. This is why some workers leave the tenon extra long and put decorative chamfers on it; even if timber in the morticed part shrinks, the tenon will still be proud. Evidently you have information to hand. Look up 'breadboards' in your books. There is a search button here at the top of the page. Click on that and again type in breadboard(s).Nothing wrong with being a novice. We all started there, and it's only by asking and practising that illumination and skill are developed. Hell, I'm crap on computers, and that's probably what you do for a living! I just know what I know about computers through trial and error, and reading a book or two. Sliante is a greeting. It translates roughly to Cheers. Sliante.
*Sgian, I agree totally. My reference to the "technical side" was used in the sense that most only suggest which tool that they use to cut the joint with little or no explanation as to the properties of the joint and why it should or shouldn't be used. Joinery based from a purely aesthetic perspective does not, IMHO, that the piece is a "good design". Structural performance and functionality enters into the equation as well, wouldn't you agree?Eug, no one said that plywood is a bad routing material. Many will use routers for milling out dados, grooves, and rabbets. While trying to stay focused and answer your question(s), they do stimulate further discussion that benefits all. We are pointing out some of the pitfalls in doing what you originally asked. Some times we also are not clear in the use of our nomenclature. What Mike refers to pertaining to the drawers by some manufacturers while some may refer to it as "ply wood" which is okay, technically the material is laminated birch as the grains of the plys run in the same direction and different adhesives are used this is why it is a good drawer material. It is still "ply wood".As a rule, I try not to answer a question directed to some one else but, I can't resist here. Sgian's comments regarding the Victorian's stimulated you to think a little about this and you came up with a correct assumption. Now there could have been other reasons that contributed such as the adhesive technology that was available at the time. I'll let Sgian answer the rest.As Mike did point out, if you are able to rout out perfectly clean dove tail joints, you would have an extremely strong joint. Far exceeding what would be necessary. One other aspect of plywood that has not been mentioned yet is that it is harder on cutting edges than alot of hardwood because of the adhesives and cross banding.One other point I would like to make, Eug, this is a public forum for people at all different skill levels so that knowledge can be exchanged for the benefit of all. Many very talented folks participate here and you should never feel the need to apologize for asking a question or that you are intruding. Folks who respond to your questions do so by their own choice in order to help. I know of no one that was born "professional" we all were novices at one time and we all continue the learning process, hopefully. I would highly recommend that you obtain a copy of "The Encyclopedia of Furniture Making" by Ernest Joyce, ISBN O-87749-068-6. I believe that it is still in print. It's an excellent reference.Dano
*Eug, Sgian,Obviously I was writing as Sgian was posting, sorry for the "out of sync" post. (Been that way all day):)Dano
*I read Eug's posts to indicate that he's thinking of using machine cut dovetails, and edge banding the exposed front edges of the cabinets. The dovetailing is somewhat unusual for this type of construction, industry standards, and end use, but the edge banding of the front edges b is quite normal. I'll not go into the merits or demerits of edge banding here, except to say that I think most kitchen cabinetry has a life expectancy of about 10 years before it's ripped out and replaced, primarily to satisfy demands of fashion and taste, although cabinet 'refacing' has become quite popular thereby saving the carcases. Eug's potential problems primarily seems to centre around his statement that he plans to hide any exposed dovetails with edge banding. Man made board is less prone to dimensional change and movement than solid timber, but it does move, so I suspect that he'd probably get away with routing a wee rebate and applying edge banding here too, if the ten year life span I alluded to earlier is borne in mind. It's still something of a risk, and the grain of the edge banding will normally run perpendicular to that of the carcase side.So here's a suggestion that allows you to play with the dovetail jig, and eliminate the perceived need to hide the joinery. * 1. Either just leave the dovetailing and plywood edges exposed, especially if it all turns out neatly. The joints will certainly be more than strong enough, and there is a chance that they might be a bit spelched and messy. Plywood is not alone in suffering from this; I've seen hardwood machine dovetailed with raggedy spelch too.* 2. Or make a special cabinet or two with one of the simpler joints- biscuits, housings, rebates, etc., at the visible ends. In this latter case you can choose whether or not to hide the plywood edges with veneer tape. Sliante.
*Sgian,Good points. There are, of course, many ways to approach this.The first that comes to mind is what we used to call "egg crate" cabinets, which is now commonly referred to as "box construction". When I went from framing into finish carpentry, the "old timer" taught me how to make them with 4 simple tools: Hand held circular saw, pencil, story stick, and hammer. We built them on site and a medium sized kitchen could be completed in less than one day.Without posting a primer here, the carcase, rails, stiles, shelving, tops, bottoms, backs, and doors all being of 3/4 ply. Exposed corners were mitered.As slight variation, Eug could "practice" router use by constructing a "shop cabinet", using the router for the rabbets and dados. By doing this using more basic router cuts, he would have a good idea how a router "feels" working with ply wood, then with any drawers he could use the new jig and router to dove tail the drawers. If they aren't perfect, no biggie, they would be hidden when the drawer is closed and still have functional cabinet. He now has first hand experience from which to make a decision. Just a thought.Dano
*i What Mike refers to pertaining to the drawers by some manufacturers while some may refer to it as "ply wood" which is okay, technically the material is laminated birch as the grains of the plys run in the same direction and different adhesives are used this is why it is a good drawer material. It is still "ply wood".I've been buying BBP (baltic birch ply) for at least 15 years and every sheet i've ever seen was made of plies laminated at 90* to one another. I don't know of any material like this that has all the plies running the same direction. Any more information on this, Dano?
*Hey Splint!Can't believe that I said that! Thanks for pointing it out. I definitely need to slow down. The warning signs of fatigue started a few days before that post and I didn't take heed. FWIW, having recall memory can sometimes be a pain; one of the first signs that I am pushing too hard is when the memory banks start short circuiting. Obviously, something popped into my mind pertaining to "micro lams" used in home construction and the laminated spruce construction used in aircraft. Go figure.Mike, I apologize to you, as well as Eug, for the above mentioned error.Dano
*No problem :-)
*Mike,You are a true gentleman, on most other boards my error would have started a major rampage.Dano
*Eug, I once tried to make 5-sided storage boxes out of 1/2" plywood by dovetailing the corners (masonite bottoms) using a 1/2" 14* carbide dovetail bit. There was all sorts of tearout and splintering and it looked terrible. If you really want to use plywood in the carcases, why not edgeband the ply with 1.5" of solid wood (glued with biscuits) and dovetail that?
*Rob, then wouldn't all the grain be in the wrong direction, instead of only have the grain?Mike
*Mike, you're absolutely right. I overlooked grain direction. Eug, DON'T try my suggestion!
*Hey Thanks for all of your comments. I did manage to buy several good books. One is Joyce's book, although a 1978 edition. The second is one is about joinery by Tage Fridge or Fridgeaire...Now all I have to do is read them and get some saw dust on my tools and belly. One of my biggest jokes was 'I am trying to keep my tools from getting dirty... :-) 'Thanks again.
*what do the letters FWTW and IMHO stand for?
*For What It's WorthIn My Humble Opinion
*Cyber off-cuts:FWIW = for what it's worthIMHO = in my humble opinionthere are more, many more... (grin)
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