I am planning to start building my first big kitchen cabinet job with the assistance of an experienced cabinet maker. We are doing veneered panel doors and drawers with a full overlay.
In european 32mm cabinet shops they don’t use a face frame for this type of carcass, and they use the back of the cabinet to provide strength to the whole box. We usually cut rabbets and slide in the backs of our cabinets after finishing, so we can’t rely on this strategy.
So we have decided that it’s probably best to build a 1.5″ face frame anyway for strength, and just let the doors have full overlay over the frame.
Does this sound like a sound idea to everyone? Are there any other clever ways of making non-face frame cabinet boxes more rigid and less prone to racking (which throws off all the alignment when they’re installed)?
thanks for your ideas!
vincent
Replies
Vincent,
Make sure first that the hinges you want to use will deal with this much overlay. Most Euro hinges will not.
Speaking generally, why invent the wheel on your first trip around the block? I've done hundreds of kitchens already, and along the way I've come up with some innovations that work for me, but if you're set on using the Euro system, why not start out doing it the standard way?
best of luck any way you decide to go...
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Thanks for the reply-The motivation for not doing standard euro carcass construction is strength. Without the face frame, the cabinet box is more prone to racking. This means that all the careful alignment of doors and drawers has to be done all over again once the cabinets are installed. My boss has done these in the standard style and this was the problem he kept running into; hence the reason why we're now looking at face frame construction for this job.If we do opt for face frame construction, I'll be sure to find hinges that allow for the overlay. Do you have any suggestions for making a carcass stronger without a face frame? thanks for you suggestions-vincent
"all the careful alignment of doors and drawers has to be done all over again once the cabinets are installed." Yeah, well, it has to be done anyway, even with face frames. If you're doing overlay doors, you can skip the alignment in the shop altogether...just make them to spec and adjust them on site. The whole premise of the standard Euro system is easy adjustment of overlay doors on rather flimsy but very economical carcases.
If you ever watch an installation of high-end European cabinets like "Bulthaup" or "Boffi", you'd be amazed how it looks like sh*t until the doors go on. It's all facade...beautiful facade.
Most of our cabinets are face frame with inset doors. The doors and drawer fronts are fit to their openings in the shop but never actually mounted on hinges until after painting - only on the day of delivery, in fact.
We almost always attach the cabinet backs by simply screwing them on from the rear; no dadoes, etc.
Our face frames always extend outwards, which has many advantages. I've written several times about this in the past, and I'm sure that one day more cabinet shops will "see the light" on this. If you're interested, I could run through it again. You can check out our website to see some of what I'm talking about. It's all Euro style hinges and hardware (Blum) on the inside, and rather traditional-looking on the outside.
regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Don't know if it's my browser (safari) or your website. But the links on top are all jumbled and the drop down menu doesn't work corectly when I pass over the "more" selection.
Just thought I'd let you know.........
Perhaps you could help me link me to some of your past threads on the subject of face frames extending outwards. As I said, I am still very much learning how to build cabinets.
I live in Bloomington, IN USA and am working on my first job with
a local cabinet maker. Here is the website: http://www.claritydesignsinc.com/I think perhaps my boss is wishing that euro cabinets were as strong as face frame cabinets. It seems that this is simply not the case (pun intended), no matter how they are constructed. But I see how the wonderfully adjustable hinges make up for this shortcoming in carcass construction. Do you have any good sources of information on installing euro-style cabinets? I would love to learn all I can before I actually do an installation. I have had the chance to do some adjustments for clients in the past, but never a whole kitchen from the ground up. Thanks again for your opinions- your website looks really nice and your work is fantastic. People like you on this forum who are willing to help those of us who are just starting our are a really wonderful resource. It seems like each shop has its own secrets and ways of doing things. Nothing beats being able find out how someone else solves a problem; there is always a 50% chance that their methods are better than yours!vincent
"I think perhaps my boss is wishing that euro cabinets were as strong as face frame cabinets."
As someone else mentioned, I've never found the strength of frameless cabinets to be an issue. What materials and thicknesses are you using for the cases? How are you joining the pieces?
-Steve
Vincent,
Your cabinet shop has a lovely website. Thanks for the link.
Here are 2 old threads where we were discussing the issue -
9211.4 and 29957.6
regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
I read this..But I see how the wonderfully adjustable hinges make up for this shortcoming in carcass construction...I'd say it tells all you need to know! First off, I'm not a pro cabinet maker. But I made and installed so Euro styled cabinets for my Sister-In-Law. She is VERY FUSSY!.She liked the look of some IKEA cabinets so I went to take a look at some and bought one 'small, high end one (price is high end?)'..I saw how it was made and decided to do the same construction.HOWEVER.. after we had the plans made.. My notes... And exactly where the cabinets would be placed.. Her kitchen is 31 by 24 feet with approximately 12 foot ceiling and a large window over the sink area. This is a high end house and most of the walls etc. are surprisingly square but not perfect. Exery wall is full of cabinets and a HUGH island with a Gas grill..I cut out the drywall (As I recall 5/8 inch thick drywall with a 1/2 inch or so plaster? Anyway, something very hard and smooth as a finish coat. I rented a good LASER for a few days and marked off the cabinet placements and drove screws into the studs to mark plum lines on all the walls.I then used a quality plywood (shimmed to plum) as a backer for the cabinets to mount onto. Not sure if this was the best way to do it but everything went up without any fussing around. If something was not plumb or square it would have been my cabinets and not the walls!Not sure I would want to do that again but every cabinet fit perfect!I'd say it was all in the preparation work and not the cabinet style or how well I made them.Sort of like having a good foundation for the house. Without it, why bother!
Use plywood on the back and hang with french cleats. If a wood cleat is to thick, then I have cleats made with metal, one on the cabinet and one on the wall. Any sheet metal shop can make them for you ( 20 or 22 ga. is good). Have them make them in 10' lengths and cut them to size as you need them. Cut them with aircraft snips cut two at per hanger the one on the wall the opening goes up and the one on the cabinet goes down. Once you see what they look like you'll figure it out.
Edited 12/10/2007 2:54 pm ET by edcollinge
Vincent,
After looking at our boss's web site, it really looks like he knows what he is doing. I seen some fantastic looking work. If you are just starting out in the trade it looks like your in the right place. I have worked with a lot of apprentices over the years and the ones who excell are the ones who ask questions and soak up all the knowledge that they can.
I am now trying to figure out your original question?
I can't see your boss letting anything leave the shop that is not perfect! I'm sure they have built eruo cainets in the past.
So what exactualy is your question?
My boss felt that the weak point of his euro cabinets was the backs.
He said that 'true' european shops build their cabinets starting with the back, so that the boxes are stronger. Our backs have to be dropped into dados later on in the process (to avoid spray-finishing the inside of a box, which is unpleasant) which makes them slightly less effective in their role of providing strength. This is because the fit of the back into the dados is never quite as perfect as if the boxes were built starting with the backs. He just wanted me to see if I could find out how other folks address this issue, and perhaps we could find out a few tricks for making stronger boxes. We even considered doing a face frame with full overlay doors and drawers, but we've opted against that idea now.
We're currently deciding whether to use MDF for the box construction or plywood. Both have their advantages. in regards to your post,
I agree, I am really looking forward to working with my boss at Clarity Designs. His work is excellent, and he is excited to work with someone new. For my part, I can't wait to learn. vincent
Vincent,
If your worried about the strengh of the joint. What I have done in the past is to run a 2" dowel in from the back of he cabinet through the dado. I use about 3 of them, I use plywood backs, an fluted dowel. I really prefer to use plywood for the whole carcaass. But sometimes the money isn't in the job.
Those threads were very helpful: I've added them into my new 'favorites' tab on the FWW site. Thanks!So we've decided to use 'euro' style boxes without face frames. Now we must decide if we're using plywood or mdf for the carcass construction. Plywood advantages: lighter weight, stronger, better to screw into.
Cons: not usually perfectly flat and straight, more expensive.MDF advantages: cheaper, very flat
Cons: bad for your lungs.Do you have a preference? How do you typically attach your backs, and how thick are they?vincent
Vincent,
For kitchens and baths we use only ply for the case members. The lack of flatness is usually put right by the face frames and the back. The back is usually 1/4" ply with a white formica lamination, simply screwed all around to the rear edges. Baltic birch is usually quite flat, and we use it for problematic situations. For most custom kitchens, the cost difference of using ply is not so significant in the total picture, and using only ply is a positive selling point for us.
We've used tons of MDF for other cabinets - bedrooms, etc. Its inherent flatness makes it easy to get perfectly square boxes. It lends itself more to industrial cabinet production than ply. However, if you're using MDF you must use only fasteners that are made to hold it, not regular wood screws. Drawer slides, hinges, and so on will not hold for long unless they are attached with the special screws (in my neighborhood these are called Confirmat screws). The screws require predrilling a 5mm hole. So this takes you well down the road to an industrial setup of predrilling cabinet members. A Blum drilling machine will handle this well, but the question is whether you want to be this kind of operation. It's a different mind-set from most custom cabinetry.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Vincent,
I'm not in the business of making cabinets for a living but I've done several sets of kitchen cabinets. In both cases I've used two sided melamine particle board with great success. I've cut the parts on my regular cabinet grade table saw mounted with a melamine cutting blade. You can usually get through a whole kitchen with little or no chipping without the need to sharpen the blade. I use two inch screws along with 1 1/2" long 1/4" crown staples and Roo glue to construct the carcasses. The two sided melamine is practically bullet proof and eliminates any need for finish. You never have to use shelf paperer and it cleans up easily. You can clean this stuff up with lacquer thinner and it won't faze it. I've never had a problem with screws holding in this material either. just be sure you purchase a good quality melamine board from your local cabinet shop wood supplier. Many of the cabinet shops in this area use this stuff for their carcasses. I built my kitchen cabinets out of this material a dozen years ago and they look as good as the day I made installed them. I've used both a 1/4" back with a 3" wide melamine stretcher mounted at the top and bottom of the back for mounting to the wall and a 1/2" back with out the stretchers as well. It's just a matter of preference or cost. The key to success with building the Euro style boxes is as stated before getting all the parts very accurately square, so when you construct the boxes they are more likely to be square as well. What I have done to help with this in the past was to purchase sheet goods from my local cabinet shop. I had them square up all the sheet stock on their panel saw before I took it home to cut the parts. By starting with square sheet stock my job was made much easier. Although I have since purchased a panel saw. Good luck on your kitchen whatever you finally decide on and Happy Holidays to you and all your family.
Danny
To have a face frame and 32 mm system seems a bit redundant to me. By themselves frameless carcasses are pretty strong without a face frame so I don't know why you'd need it.
And to add one on seems like it'd make the cabinets a bit clunky.
IMHO whenever eurohinges are mounted on face frames it makes for a clumsy looking hinge when you open the door. The extra width eaten up by the face frame and the protrusion of the hinge base and hinge all add up segnificanlty to cut down on the dimension of the opening.
Although most of my cabinets have faceframes, I've done frameless cabinets that didn't rack. For these, I use a solid piece of ply screwed to the back and even 1/4" ply will stiffen them up very well.
Don't forget that screwing the cabs together during installation also adds lts of strength.
Thats what do, use a 1.5" f/f on the sides and bottom , a 2.5 on top (for counter top over lap and then you can use the ply scraps as filler to install your drawer sliders. Depending on what you want to do , I will use a 1/4" piece of ply for the back slighty over sized and attack with brads and use a flush trim bit to trim. But what your building isnt really a Euro cab its more Trad. .
If your going Euro, I cut the boxes dado the joints nail'em together and make a hard wood edging out the same material I will be making the drawer fronts and doors out of. I use a free standing base out of 2X6, if your tiilng or 2x4 if not and level then place the boxes on top and attach. Hope this helps
Oh yea and then I make 1/4 ply over sized and attach 3 corners use the square it up and nail the the then use the flush trim bit to clean it up.
Edited 12/6/2007 2:43 pm by Sancho
Vincent,
A 1.5 inch face frame doesn't have nearly enough joint strength to pull a racked cabinet into line, and it shouldn't be expected to, but the overlap of the face on the sides hides the racking.
In almost any type of kitchen cabinet construction the back is added after the sides are built and the back will square up the cabinet provided the sides were properly built and that is where most problems occur. If the four panels that make up the box before the back is added aren't flat and pretty close to perfectly square then the box will have a built in twist that fitting the back won't be able to correct.
No box is rigid enough to stay square if it isn't sitting squarely, so during construction the box has to be built on a sturdy level and flat surface and when installed the cabinets will need shimming to correct for the typically out of flat floor or base frame.
John White, Yestermorrow School
Thanks John,That's helpful advise. What is your method for attaching the back?
We usually use a dado that fits 1/4 inch ply.
There is a tiny bit of play with the panel fitting
into the rabbet, which may account for additional racking. The dado is nice because is the sides of your cabinet are exposed, you don't see the back. A rabbet would also work to conceal the back, but it leave less room to nail or screw the back into place. ___Would you say that a cabinet with a face frame significantly stronger, and less prone to need adjustment after installation as compared to one without? Or is it really a matter of good installation practices and either cabinet carcass will provide similar results.thanks again,vincent
"We usually use a dado that fits 1/4 inch ply."
I like to use 1/2" for cab backs. Gives you more mounting opportunities if you miss a stud. But that never happens, does it? ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
They do make an overlay of 1 3/8" euro hinges. I got them at HD but don't remember the brand. I used them to get the door to swing back far enough to clear drawer shelf slides
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled