Greetings,
This is my first post here. My wife and I are buying our first house and, as it is in excellent condition, ready to move in, we will be changing everything. I’m planning to build the new kitchen cabinets and have been reading everything I could get my hands on on the subject, including the Taunton Press book “Designing and Building Cabinets”. Bill Crozier has an article in there that shows a door joint that I would like to use. Trouble is, I can’t figure out how it is made. It looks like a cope and stick joint, but with a 1 1/2″ tenon. Seems to me that would make a stronger joint without having to miter the moulded piece. I just can’t figure out how that rout over the tenon is cut. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Anthony
Replies
Anth, I believe the first cut is a through dove tail(On the router table)
Then the mortises and tenons are cut on the tablesaw using a tenioning jig. Stein.
Hmmm... that would work, but it isn't the kind of profile he shows in his drawing nor what I want to have on the cabinets. It does seem to be the type of bit that would be needed to make that joint, though I've never seen one like it.
There is an optional stub spindle for some shapers available to clear the tenon. Also there are router bits to do the same thing but I find it far simpler to use loose tenons and a horizontal slot mortiser to strengthen cope and stick joints. Even more low budget and low tech is to dowel the joint.
http://woodcentral.com/shots/shot52.shtml
As the other poster mentioned the cope and stick is fine but on oversized doors the strengthening by using a loose tenon is a great help. A couple of dowels is a simple and low tech solution. The slot mortiser in FWW #141 is another low tech option.
Edited 5/9/2005 4:54 am ET by rick3ddd
Well, it would make sense if it was done on a shaper, as I don't have one and don't think I'll be able to justify it on this job. If you know of a router bit that does it, I would appreciate being pointed to it as I have been unable to find one. Thanks,Anthony
Berone, What rick3ddd was suggesting is to run the cope and stick profile of your choice (The one you are showing is called 'Traditional' by Whiteside) THEN cut mortises for loose tenons. The reveal will be the same whether your tenon is integral to the rail or loose.
Easy as pie if you've got the right oven. (slot mortiser)
One final thought, normal sized cabinet doors are strong enough using only simple router made cope and stick.
Edited 5/9/2005 1:48 am ET by POLARSEA1
Hello Anthony. You only say that it looks like a cope and stick. Perhaps it was only the same profile on the stile and rails. The author then ripped off the last 2" or so off the stile and cut his mortise and added the tenon to the rail. Like you said this is where the miter would meet up. My only other guess is that it is a special router bit like the one in the Lonnie Bird divided lite set available through cmt. Good luck. Peter
Peter,I found the Lonnie Bird set you mentioned. That looks like what I need. Thanks!Anthony
Glad to help. Post some pictures of it sometime. Peter
Anthony,
The shaped end on the rail that fits over the molded edge of the stile, is called a cope. It is cut, on the shaper, by using a cutter that is one half of a matched set of cutters. The coping cutter is used on a "stub spindle" that has a flush mounted screw on its top, that holds the cutter in place, and allows the tenon to pass over the end of the spindle. This requires multiple set-ups, to cut the stuck mold on the edges of the frame, to cut the tenons on the ends of the rails, to cut the mortises in the stiles, and to cope the ends of the rails.
There are matched sets of cutters that do the same thing in only two passes; only you end up with a very short tenon, and a "mortise" that is also the groove for the panel. Adequate for cabinet doors, but not very strong, compared to a 1" or longer tenon in a true mortise. Fast though, which is what you want in production work.
It is possible to cut a mortise and tenon joint and then miter the molding together at the corners of the frame. You need to cut away the molding on the stile, from the miter to the end of the stile, so the (un coped) shoulder of the rail has a flat surface to mate against. As long as the frame members aren't too wide, shrinkage won't pull the miter open. This takes a little longer to do, but once you get a routine worked out, it'e pretty quick.
Another option is to cope the molding together the same way old work was done. That is, the molding on the stile is chopped off, just above the point where the miter would be, if you were mitering the corners as described above. The end of the molding on the rail is then hollowed out to fit over the end of the rail's molding. Since you've chopped it off short, the cope doesn't have to be clear across the end of the rail, only enough to receive the stubby end. The shape, and location of the cope on the rail's molding is found bycutting a miter on it, then using an appropriately shaped gouge to chop straight down from the edge (or corner) formed where the miter and the molding meet. This will take a bit longer to cut than mitering, but has the advantage of not opening up with shrinkage, on wider frame members.
Regards,
Ray
"The shaped end on the rail that fits over the molded edge of the stile, is called a cope. It is cut, on the shaper, by using a cutter that is one half of a matched set of cutters. The coping cutter is used on a "stub spindle" that has a flush mounted screw on its top, that holds the cutter in place, and allows the tenon to pass over the end of the spindle."Ray,That's what it looked like to me, only I've been unable to find any cutter that fits the description. Of course I've mostly been looking at router bits, as I don't have a shaper. I did look at some shaper profiles but didn't find it there, either. Do you know if there is a router set that does that? I'm thinking of getting a stock reversible router set and seeing if I can modify it, but that would probably take longer than mitering the moulding by hand on all of the doors! Several people have said that the cope and stick is fine for cabinet doors, but I'm just not sold. I would be more comfortable with it if I was gluing in a plywood panel, but I want to float a solid wood panel. Besides, it's not a production job - I'm custom making cabinets for my own house and I'd like them to come out just right (okay, within reason - if there's a way to avoid doing that hand miter on all four corners of every door I wouldn't mind).I'm kicking around the loose tenon idea, but it's not really what I want to do and would be as much work as the mortise and tenon.Thanks to everyone for the advice. We haven't closed on the house yet and this probably won't be the first project when we move in, so I have time to do more research and mull it over. Anthony
Even with a solid wood raised panel. at the middle of the top and bottom you can put a 1/2" spot of glue and glue it in the expansion is side to side on the panel. top to bottom expansion is almost nil. So doing this you can use a rail and stile set
For the sides, of the panel, you can use small pieces (1/2" - 3/4") of screening spline to help reduce rattle of the panel. - Rockler sell space balls that are for that purpose. I had some left over spline and used that and it worked just perfect.1 - measure the board twice
2 - cut it once
3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go
4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I took a class at Lonnie Bird's school last year and we made doors like you're doing. We used the following steps after the stock was sized. We ran the male profile on the inside edge of stiles and rails. We then cut our mortises and tendons. Instead of coping the rails, we mitre the moulded profile. We screwed a wooden auxilary fence to our mitre gauge on the table saw. Our profile on the edge of each piece was 5/16" so we marked a horizontal line up 5/16" from the bottom of the wooden fence. Next we set our saw blade at 45 degrees made a cut through the wooden fence until the high point of the 45 degree saw cut just touchs the horizontal line we had marked. Next where the high point of the saw cut meets the horizontal line, we drew a perpendicular line with a square and pencil to the top of our auxilary fence. You just determine where the outside part of your mitre will be on your stiles and rails, mark a pencil line from that point with a square, line that up when the line on your fence and cut. Mine turned out perfectly.
Allen,After doing the cut on the table saw did you have to go back and remove the waste? Particularly on the stiles - it seems that the rail might end up right on the corner, but the stile would run all the way up.
The answer is yes. After cutting the mitre on the stile you simply pare the remaining unneeded moulded edge with a sharp chisel.
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