Newbie here with respect to most aspects of woodworking ….
Kitchen cabinets I’m building – face frame construction. Planning on using double thickness 3/4″ plywood interior dividers due to weight of 1 1/4″ stone top. OK – so perhaps overkill but that’s my style (grin).
The question actually is – what’s the best way to attach the face frame to the cabinet sides and partitions? I’d prefer not to face nail if there’s a better way. Cabinet stiles are currently designed at 1-1/2″ so dado attachment isn’t an option.
Thought just occured to me while thinking about it – perhaps a long tenon in the interior partitions let into a dado in the stiles, etc.
Yes, I realize it’s far more work than one usually allows for kitchen cabinets, but …. what can I say? (grin)
Replies
hi dennis, in an older issue of fww (can't remember) there was an article on buscuit joining cabinet face frames on to their carcasses, if not that idea what about dowels? I haven't got the clearest image of what your trying to do but it seems that if face nailing is an option,albeit the last one, then either of the other ideas might work too, It's the clamping them on the boxes side of the equation I can't get my mind around. Good Luck. Larry
Guess using biscuit joinery would be a good excuse to by a biscuit joint cutter! (grin)
The thought had occured to me to use biscuits but I hadn't seen it done before. I suppose face nailing with a pin nailer wouldn't be too terribly bad of an option since the face wood is ash - open grain that would help hide the nail holes and putty used to conceal them.
perhaps ..... (hehe)
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Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
About time somebody realizes the weight of stone counter tops. Seen too many made with MDF and bend after installation.
As to your question about the face frame attachment, it depends on if they're painted or not.
I generally use a few biscuits to align the face frame to the the carcase, then glue and brad (painted cabs), or screw and plug (clear finish) cabs.
With 4/4 stock, I brad with 1-1/2" 18 GA brads. Watch out for brads turning back into the ply. When plugging, I use 1-1/4" SR coarse thread screws with the plug cut a little less than 3/8". Try to cut the plugs from scrap that the frames are made from. Check your plug cutter and bit to make sure you're getting a good fit first.
In any case, the glue is the real bond, with the nails or screws holding the piece tight until the glue cures.
Tom -
The biscuit joint approach sounds like a lot less work, but from my perspective (and experience in such things) I think I might get better alignment with a toungue at the end of the partitions fitted into a dado along the back side of the stiles.
n a recent project (I wasn't the designer, cabinet maker or stone mason - just a CAD support jock) the put *I kid you not*, 3" granite tops on some Balthoup(sp) MDF Euro box cabinets. I was shocked at the idea but surprisingly, the cabinets stood up to the load. I can't speak to any deformation of the interior partitions. But I don't feel like taking any chances.
The face frame stock is Easter Ash. I just today picked up about 90bf of S2S 8/4 lumber that I will be ripping and milling down to 3/4" to get all quarter sawn material. I really like working with the ash so far. I don't think I could bring myself to paint it, though (grin)
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Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis, The way you just describe is the way we did it a custom cab shop I used to work at. We ran tounges on all verticle pratitions as well as bottoms and fixed shelves that had face frames on them. all the faceframe material had dados in the back of them. We glued and clamped them in place and then shot 5/8" 18ga brads from the back at an angle through the tounge into the faceframe this fixed it while the glue dried and we could release them from clamps and on to the next one. You have to cut away the tounge where the frames intersect at times because the dado won't be continous. Makes a strong connection, just hope you don't make a mistake and have to pop one off because it makes a mess, almost always have to remake.
Brian
I had a job where I needed a removable faceframe and these KD fastners really worked well. The post goes into the back of the face frame and into a hole drilled in the edge of the partition. The cam goes into a hole drilled part way into the face of the partition.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I do kitchens but don't use the face frame method, but I would have thought that this was a job for pocket screws, pockets in the carcase and screwing into the rear of the face frame?
John
Just glue. In production shops, they can't afford to wait for glue to cure, so they nail it. You're just doing a few cabinets, and have the time. Make the face frame (M&T, pocket screws, or whatever), then just glue it on to the carcass using pipe clamps and cauls.
I started using pocket screws and love it. Ordinarily if the cabinet painted I would just face nail. If I didn't get to do the finish I would biscuit mainly because I could trust the painter to properly fill the holes for me.
But biscuits require a little more brain tissue and attention. Pocket screws on the other hand are a lot more forgiving of their placement and a wandering mind.
I was getting ready to say biscuits because pocket screws leave a hole when you said you fill in the holes. I never thought of filling in the holes. What do you use for filler that won't shrink and crack? Pocket screws are much easier due to the overlap of the face frame edges.
The new issue of FWW has an article on biscuits and mentions face frames.
You can usually turn the panel away from view so as not to show the pocket screw holes. Say, like on the inside of the drawer units or the facing the dishwasher or oven unit. These areas never get seen. Still it's hard to see them anyway behind the frames.
Most of my clients when they see the pockets, as I deliver them, always seem to like seeing them. Sells a job, makes it look fancy. I know it's odd but they like to see the pockets. When I would tell them that there was biscuits used ,it requires a little faith. Know what I mean.
As to actually filling them, I haven't. But The Woodcrafter's Store sells a plug insert for the pocket screws you can use.
If you meant filling the nail holes, I use many different things for different situations. Sometimes Bondo, Famowood, Rockhard, spackle or lots of others. Famo Wood or Bondo seems to work best for me.
I agree with Jamie, glue only. On face frame, free standing furniture that is to be clear finished, this is standard operating procedure.
Glue is adequate for attachment (clamped of course), biscuits are an aid in alignment. Art
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