Cabinet Saw . . . I need your input folks.
TonyGrunch
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
My 20 yr+ contractor saw finally died and I’m currently in the market for a cabinet saw (a hybrid is out of the picture). I have a small woodworking business and it’s time to upgrade. Would you folks give me some feedback on the following saws I’m considering:
- Delta Unisaw: Is it really worth the price tag? I’ve checked out all the new features with all the bells and whistles. Just how important are they? Does a single piece trunnion really make that much of a difference?
-
Powermatic PM2000: It appears to be a true workhorse. How about ease of “dialing it in”? Any other concerns?
-
Grizzly G0691: The cost is considerably less the two above. Why?
Due to shop limitation, I have to keep the motor 3hp/single phase. The 50″ -52″ fence and rail system is about as large as I can go and still keep the shop safe and viable.
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Tony.
Replies
At the risk of not answering your question directly, have you considered the SawStop? Their professional model is competitive to the Unisaw's price, and since you mentioned shop safety, may be worth consideration. Besides the blade brake system, it's a very good saw.
IF you live in "humidity"
IF you live in "humidity" land you might want to consider the Steel City Granite saw.. MIne works perfectly and the table dosn't "rot" like my Bandsaw/Jointer/Planer.... I spend more time spraying BioShield some weekends then I work wood.. putting out rust fires.. the TS.. Sits there gleaming in it black coat of arms...
Rich
I have in-fact thought about the SawStop. The saw I'm replacing is a digital contrctor saw. I would probably still be using it if the electronics didn't fail. Now when I use it, the blade retracts during the middle of the cut. The manufacturer states that, "You're just going to have to buy a new saw . . . we don't carry parts any longer for that model." Needless to say, I won't be dealing with them ever again.
I know I'm a miser in the shop, and safety is a huge consideration. And yes, I have limited use of my index finger due to blade kickback. The injury was totally my fault. It has been a teaching tool for my 12 year old son and 10 year old daughter (both of which know how to use every tool in the shop).
My fear with the SawStop is longevity. My business is in it's infancy. I need to know it will last the test of time and grow with the business. Clearly a cabinet saw is a significant investment and I'm looking for the "best bang for my buck" (if you'll pardon the expression). Which means parts and service.
I will weigh your suggestion again into the mix.
Thanks
t.
Can't tell you about longevity short of a time machine, but for what it's worth, SawStop is basically keeping my local retailer afloat with multiple unit sales to institutions like studios, universities, and school districts. It could be these institutions are attracted more to the instant liability benefits than the long term prospects of the business or technology. But at least some of their customers are large entities that may have some sway in determining future viability.
If you're going to check out the SawStop, take a look at the owner's manual (it's available online as well). Surprisingly, the manual and not the blade brake is what I found most impressive about this saw.
tony,
friend of mine had the pm machine. great saw, really well-built, a pleasure to use. i have an old grizzly g1023. great saw.
eef
Griz wil not let you down, it is solid and well built. I have 5 of their tools and wish to heqq I did not have a Delta Hybrid saw. The 691 is on my list after I sell my other saw.
AZMO
Just curious why you do not like the Delta Hybrid as I have been thinking about purchasing one. Haven't decided yet.
I wish it was easier to find old posts, but alas that is not our fate, so I will give you the highlights.
Essentially the Delat saw came out of alignment. I could not adjust the trunnions so the blade was parrallel with the miter slots. Several phone calls to the Tech line and lots of suggestions did not help. Two trips from the authorized repair tech facility in Phoenix did not help. The third trip form the repair tech to my shop and we loaded it up and returned it the repair center. They brought in a new trunnion and then found that did not help. The bolts holes at the back that hold the trunion were drilled wrong, so you could not adjust it far enough side to side. Bottom line they reamed open the adjustment slot on the trunnion and it has very little metal left.
Bottom line is, the adjustment still does not stay locked. I still have to recheck it and have adjusted it twice more since to maintain parrallel with the miter slots. Most folks set up their TS and run them for years without issue.
Other issues, the table is not milled flat, and the wings will not flush out to the top. The surface was very coarse and not polished. Check out a Saw Stop and you will see the difference quick.
The fence rail came with the wrong hardware, had to make a trip and buy a few extra metric bolts. The rip fence has small contact patches that glide along the rail. They have worn and I need to adjust the fence for parrallel as well now.
And to add to it all the base is not flat and I have had to add levelers to keep it from wobbling on the floor.
I paid $650 for the saw and I suppose it is worth what I paid. What I wanted was a tool that works like my Griz 8" jointer and 15" thickness planer. Solid, no frills, functional tools.
Sorry for the rant, but really, buy a used quality saw or spend the bigger bucks for a better new tool. You will not regret having quality and skipping the frustration. Let me know what you do buy, but do check out the 691. Reviewed in another rag this month as the budget cabinet saw of choice with a few minor isses.
AZMO
Note: Rockler no longer carries this tool at their store in Phoenix.
If you have any employees for which you pay worker's comp insurance, you may find that the Sawstop will pay for itself to some extent. As a 20-year veteran, you may or may not want to spend that $$ only on yourself as a safety precaution -- it's easily in the same quality league as the Unisaw and PM, even without the brake.
The relative price of the Grizzly is pretty much in line with how it's been for a number of years now. They have no middle-man, sell directly out of their warehouses and tightly control their inventory. Though their intro-level machines may not be top-notch, made to last forever, their cabinet saws, big bandsaws, and big jointers have an excellent reputation.
honestly if you do this for a living buy the sawstop. I wish we had one where i work and they are built like tanks. if this is your livlyhood and you are using the saw all the time the risk of losing a finger goes up, and why risk it.
i can not speak for the new unisaw but the last model was ok
we have a pm66 and a grizzly at work and i will tell you that to a man we will walk around the grizzly to get to the powermatic.
also get the 5hp
I've seen the Unisaw and it has nice features, but it doesn't seem to be built for daily use.
I have a Grizzly 1023 which is used almost daily and I have no complaints. The fit and finish is not as nice as the PM2000 though. Have you looked at the GO651?
I'm in the process of building a bigger shop and I hope to pick up a Saw Stop Industrial in a year or so. They are really heavy and built well. To me, the only saws that compare to the SS are old PM66s and really expensive saws like Knapp and Felder.
In the end, I doubt you would be unhappy with any of the better Grizzly saws, especially for the price.
I wish I had the time to look for old posts.......I use an Industrial Sawstop every day in a commercial shop. We cut A LOT of everything with that saw. It replaced an 80's vintage Unisaw back in 2006. I have used Jet cabinet saws. I have used the old Powermatic 66 saws. The Sawstop is the best of the lot. Period.
I haven't used a Grizzly saw ,the PM2000 or the new Unisaw. A tool repair expert I deal with tells me the newer Deltas and PM's aren't anywhere near as good as the older versions. I trust him, he would know. I assume the Grizz is in the Jet league-so-so.
No way to really know how long the electronics will last in that saw. Time will just have to tell. Bottom line , a serious tool for serious shops.
-Paul
If you work with panels, you may also want to consider a sliding table saw. I just recently bought the Grizzly G0623X. Although, I rarely do panels, I still love the sliding table.
Tony:
I bought the Grizzly 0690 about 6 months ago and so far I am happy with it. I bought a couple of new blades for ripping and crosscutting and I can cut things now I couldn't with my contractors TS. I had one problem with the fence lock, it made a loud pop each time I locked it. I called the company, got support, took some pictures, they checked them out and sent me a new part. Everything went smooth. I had to tweak it a little to get things square. Keeping the top nice and rust free requires a bit of effort but the top is smooth as glass. Did the nickel test and that went fine as well.
Granted, it's not a Saw Stop or a PM 2000 but it works well for me and the price was right. All in all, I'm a happy guy. My next purchase is their 8" jointer.
Good luck with your purchase whatever that may be.
Jim
After many years my delta contractors saw finally died recently, I found that it would cost about $400 to replace the motor. Looking around and not having much money, I found a local dealer for Shop Fox and bought a left tilt, 3 hp 220v single phase for $1000. If I had more money I would have gone after a SawStop without question, but limits happen. Dealer delivered new saw, set it up, and took away the old one which was only 1.5 hp, 110v single ph...I am happy with this new saw, but always looking for something better. I live in Maine and perhaps people do business better here than in other parts of the country. However, buy the biggest and most powerful that you can affort...as a professional woodworker, I think that you should go 5 hp Sawstop... $3500 can save a lot of fingers...Best of luck+
I have finally had a chance to get back on here and read up on the current threads. Its nice to get back in the mix.
I would say that any of the cabinet saws would be a good choice. I was at Edensaw recently and took a look at the Saw Stop. It looks like a really good saw, it is very expensive. I currently use a 69 year old Unisaw with a 1hp 1750rpm motor and I have not bogged it down with oak, maple, apitong or teak. I paid $400 for it 10 years ago and since then put a Shop Fox fence on it and it has served me well.
Long story short version, I would shop around for an older Delta, Powermatic or General and save a little money. I recently saw an older Oliver cabinet saw sor sale for around $800. If I had the need for it today I would have taken a good look at it.
Best of luck.
sandlcustom
a lot of recommendations for the SawStop... anyone have any experience with both the industrial and professional models to contrast them?
I would second that thought. Anyone out there who can compare the Industrial and the Professional? Or should we start a primary post.
I bought all Powermatic tools with one exception and it just broke. You cannot go wrong with the PM2000. Easy set up, large table, lots of power and easy blade changes. A joy to use.
Mr. Bird - I would not pay current prices on the Delta hybrid. It's got a premium price tag, but is one of the older, less evolved hybrid designs currently on the market. There's no riving knife, and is the only current hybrid that offers table mounted trunnions mated by connecting rods, which is really the worst of both worlds. Many now offer cabinet mounted trunnions, and the others that have table mounted trunnions sport one piece cast arbor carriages instead of the connecting rods. That doesn't make it a bad saw, but there's really nothing about the Delta's design that merits a premium...they do offer 3 good fence options though.
Tony - The primary reason that Grizzly machines are less expensive than others is that they're a direct importer with no retail markup. Being your own middle man isn't for everyone, and a good dealer is worth a premium to lots of people, but there's a significant price advantage if you're willing to go it alone. The machines in general are very comparable to other Asian imports...Jet, GI, Rikon, Steel City, Delta and PM imports, etc.
I checked out the electronics on the SawStop before I bought it and was told that the breaks are made by Texas Instruments in the USA.
I would assume as many of them that are out there, you would be able to buy them as an after market item if SawStop went out of business.
Right now they are the largest selling cabinet saw so I would guess they will not be going out of business any time soon.
I was told that the primary difference between the professional and industrial SawStops are
1. The table top is smaller on the professional which reduces the weight by quite a bit.
2. The mobile base is built in the professional but is not quite as nice.
3. The professional is supposed to have better dust collection as there is a seperate port on the blade guard.
Domer
I hate to say it but right now you can find used tools pretty cheap. An old Delta ,Jet or Powermatic can be refurbished,these saws are bulletproof. Its great to bring new life to an old saw. It also helps you get to know your tools. Good luck
I have a saw to do wood working, and not a saw to repair. Just me, but dang I hate messing things that keep from doing what I like. I don't change my oil, I don't drive old cars cause I hate messing with them as well.
Hats off to those of you who do!
AZMo
First allow me to thank everyone of you for your help in this matter. Your help has been invaluable. I think this has been one of the more difficult purchases I've made. The long awaited purchase has been made and I await delivery.
I decided upon the General (Canada) left tilt, 3HP with outfeed and extensions with a roller kit. I've found a 'local' service company within a 50 mile radious too. I was able to purchase the tool for less than a PM2000 as well. This saw appears to have everything I need in a cabinet saw at this time. Only time will tell now.
The new Delta seemed like a bunch of bells and whistles that I didn't really need. The price tag seemed more than it was worth to me as well.
As for the SawStop. What can I say? What a saw indeed! I was able to see it firsthand at a local dealer. You guys are right, its a TANK. When I become larger with multiple employees (especially apprentices), this tool is certainly the one to consider.
Once again, allow me to thank every single one of you out there. This is why I love doing this type of work. The brotherhood of woodworkers (male & female) is one of the only professions that encourage this type of honest give and take without pressure from other entities within the profession.
You folks ROCK!
Thanks.
tony.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled