I’m ready to buy a cabinet saw, and I’ve narrowed the selection down to the PM 66 or the General 650. I was set to buy the PM 66, but then a internet search found several reviews complaining of poor machining, missing parts and other complaints that seem to indicate a downturn in quality control.
I’d appreciate any comments on either machine, especially in regards to quality, robustness and durability. Also, where can I find an exploded view or picture of the General trunnion assembly on the web?
Thanks!
Replies
Clinton,
I just spent the last five years pondering that decision while I saved to make the purchase. Just when I was ready to order the PM 66, Powermatic introduces the PM 2000. Read my post to the user review section for the PM-2000. It should post soon. There were a couple of cosmetic flaws and a design oversight in selecting the hardware for attaching the back rail, but the trunnion and built-in caster system operate flawlessly. The saw is 600lbs and operates with no vibration. The table top was flat to within .001" Powermatic wins. The best advice is visit a retailer if possible for hands on and then make your decision. It will probably be the last saw you ever buy.
Jon
"Read my post to the user review section for the PM-2000"
Where is the user review section?
Clinton,
It really is best to see both side by side. Either saw will last several lifetimes but the General is more Sherman Tank like in my opinion. Personally, when comparing the big three(Delta, Powermatic, General)its like asking "how many angles on the head of a pin"...it just doesn't matter. Any problems with the machine(for all three) and they'll take care of it.
Although your post indicates that you are interested in a Powermatic or General, I think you would be doing yourself a big favor if you look at the Laguna TS before you make your final decision. The TS is in the same price range as the Powermatic but has many compelling features. These include large sturdy welded cabinet, steel extension table, large table throat plate for easy access to blade with dovetailed zero clearance insert, easy adjustable european style riving knife (splitter) that rises and lowers with blade, dust shroud below blade with dust collecting blade guard for excellent dust collection, 12" blade on 5/8" arbor, a great rip fence with cam type lever lock, choice of 3 or 4.5 hp Baldor motor and options like a scoring kit for great cuts in plywood and a mobility kit. The price on Laguna's web site is $2250, if you catch them at a woodworking show, I know they are willing to make a deal. I have the TSS model with sliding table. Once you use a european style sliding table you'll never go back to a shop-made crosscut jig however it almost doubles the price. Most importantly, Laguna's customer service can't be beat, it is simply the best in the industry. Check out http://www.laguantools.com. By the way, their bandsaws are the best available too. Good Luck with your saw purchase!
Edited 1/31/2006 9:47 am ET by CTWoodWkr
how much did you pay for the tss? and i think the ts is now 2499.00. dont know what that includes. they wont email back to me so i left them a nasty gram.work long hours so callin them during open hours is hard.looks like good saw and uses baldor motors(almost indestructable). happy with their fence? sliding saw? also like the pm2000 but are any available? a vendor at calif woodworking said they are havin problems with the castors due to the sheer weight of saw(trying to crank it up). apparently on the first models you had to tip saw to take weight off castors to get them up.anyone else heard of this problem?
I have owned a General 350 cabinet saw for 20 years and used it when I was in business. One year ago I quit the business to go into something else. About 4 years ago I bought a Powermatic shaper and it seemed to be a Jet painted yellow.
Overe the years I have bought a General 8" jointer, 15" bandsaw, 6" jointer and have been happy with all of them. My shop has mostly Oliver and General equipment.
From what I have seen I would not recommend the new Powermatic tools.
Edited 1/31/2006 11:12 am ET by gb93433
oliver now is also over seas stuff and the tablesaws has no accesories. sois laguna as good as general?
Have you seen the website http://www.olivermachinery.net/
yes i did. the prices seem reasonable ,but their products are now made in tawian like alot of companys. their accessories are very limited and i dont know anybody who has assembled or used these saws. do you? thanks clay
I do not know anyone who has used the new machines. If it were me I would be looking for an older Oliver machine. Some of the reason why people are not buying older machines is the shipping costs.
Check out Sawstop... http://www.sawstop.com
I have to agree with x31dude. The SawStop seems to be a great way to go, and I will be trading in my Unisaw for one. The Unisaw has been a great saw for the last seven years I have used it, but having the safety features of the SawStop makes it the winner. It has a riving knife built in, a better guard to that is easy to take on and off for dados, and of course the saw stopping brake that will prevent the loss of a digit or two if something goes wrong. A friend of mine had something go wrong and 7 surgeries later has only partial use of half his hand.
If you had to sacrifice quality of machine for safety, it would be a harder choice, but everything I have read on this saw indicates it is built as well or better than the saws being discussed. Also has a bigger iron top and weighs an extra 350lbs over my Delta.
Think of how much money and grief losing a finger would cost you. At ~$2700-$3000 this is not to big an "insurance policy."
(PS: Please don't respond with the "if you use your tools correctly" argument. Yes, I semi agree with you. But, stuff happens, and does everyone here always do the safe thing 100% of the time?! :-)
You hit the nail on the head; in regards to, if you use the tool safely and with respect, you will be fine. That statement is a fantasy. No one can predict how stresses will be relieved within a piece of wood your cutting... or if a hidden foreign material lurks under the surface of the piece of wood your cutting. Even if you are doing all the correct things, when 3 horses decide to kick at you... you go in the direction of the kicking and if that direction happens to be fingers in the blade... learn to ride with a few less fingers. The attitude that nothing has happened to me because I have been wise and safe means I have proven myself to be immune is crazy.
I opted to buy the Sawstop because it has superior safety features AND functionality wise is better than Unisaw, AT LEAST comparable to PM 66 and General (Canadian) table saws. Does it cost more YES. Now, if I cut off some fingers does it cost more, NO. I figured initial cost difference would be insignificant spread out over the 20-30 years I plan on using it.
I took a look at the machine in person and it looked very well built and hefty, which reaffirmed everything I had read about it. Soon I will be able to decide if I was correct, after a couple of times putting the machine through its paces.
Cheers
I think you make a number of good points and the Sawstop does represent an advance in certain areas. It is not a panacea, however.
I think that there are other ways to assure safety, and I don't believe that the Sawstop addresses all of them (kickback for example).
One troubling issue for me is the longevity of the company... are they in it for the long haul, or looking to be acquired? Do they have the resources to be a player? I would feel better if General or PM offered this technology.
I am concerned that if SS goes belly up, early converters will end up with machines that will have either spotty or no ongoing support/parts.
That won't enhance safety...
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You are absolutely correct, it is not a panacea. But in my opinion, it is currently the closest saw to it.
Yes you are correct it does not prevent kick back, but its rifing knife (instead of blade splitter) does improve on prevention of kick back. And the fact that the rifing knife is easily removed and reattached encourages it will be used... I started not using my blade splitter on my previous machine because it got in the way and was not easily reattached... nor easily adjusted to work effectively. Crazy but true.
My previous threaded mention, in regards to kick back, was not that kick back was absolutely removed by this new technology; but more so, I attempted to illustrate if kick back should happen, to which you loose control of your hand, I would feel a lot more comfortable knowing I have Sawstop technology as a back up as my fingers approach the blade. My logic being, I am trying to mitigate a possible effect due to kick back.
Your are correct to question Sawstop's longevity. I figured should they go belly up the saw does not become obsolete. I figure on such a scenario I would wire the saw to by pass its safety-braking-technology, assuming I ran out of braking supply components. After all, the saw is an excellent machine even when excluding its braking technology... strickly my opinion.
The only reason I can see that SawStop might go down the tubes is the fierce reaction from the rest of the industry not wanting to pay for and incorporate the new technology. I bought their cabinet saw and am very, very pleased with it.
<"The only reason I can see that SawStop might go down the tubes is the fierce reaction from the rest of the industry not wanting to pay for and incorporate the new technology.">
Trouble is, that is a potent and fairly likely reason.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
that's a relatively simple view of their situation, Occam's Razor would suggest that a far more likely cause would simply be their inability to sell enough of their tablesaws to support the business, or to do so at a price point that is economically feasible for them. I also would not discount the ability of competitive manufacturers to develop their own safety features if the market begins to pivot on this feature set. SawStop's patent covers one technology that they have developed, it doesn't cover the general notion of tablesaw safety...I think the SawStop tablesaw is a well engineered machine, well built, and of course the added safety technology makes it unique. Having said all that, this is not an industry that is known for innovation or the adaptation of technology, and on top of that there are legitimate concerns about potential litigation arising from SS being incorporated into some machines and not others, right or wrong it may be but lawyers for these companies are always going to proceed conservatively. This more than anything else is probably why you have not seen manufacturers adopt this technology. Another likely outcome for SawStop is that they will build themselvs a nice little business selling high end tablesaws with unique safety features. SawStop could also lurch along and ultimately get acquired by a larger global manufacturer who can offer the existing machines with better economics and broader distribution, or be willing to invest in incorporating the technology into their existing product line.
Edited 3/5/2006 11:35 pm ET by tangomike
Glaucon,
I will disagreea little bit with you on the kickback risk. A tablesaw with a riving knife that both closely follows the curvature of the blade and rises/falls/tilts with the blade will prevent the worst kickbacks.
Kickback happens when the rear of the blade, rising out of the table, grabs and throws up the wood if it leaves the guide of the fence. If the riving knife is set 2-3mm from the edge of the blade, it is very unlikely that the back of the blade can ever so-grab the wood, as that wood is jammed between the riving knife and the fence.
The greater the height of the wood relative to the height of the blade (ideally the blade sticks out of the workpiece by only a few millimetres) the less chance of kickback, as the top of the riving knife, just behind and below the top point of the blade, begins to control the workpiece earlier in its travel down the fence.
If your riving knife is properly set up, with this minimum clearance from the blade and just below the blade height (to allow over-cutting) you will have to try quite hard to achieve any kickback.
Nevetheless I have hold-downs mounted on my fence, just in case. As other posters have said, any safety feature that just costs money (rather than usability) is a Good Thing. Clunk-click every trip - you know it makes sense. :-)
I agree with you that a riving knife will help to lessen the chance of kickback.
I guess my feeling is that there are a number of things that can enhance TS safety- and other things that don't. Most of the guards provided by the manufacturers, in my opinion, increase the risk of injury because of poor design and impaired visibility. Third party guards may be beneficial. A riving knife or well placed splitter will help, and the safety mechanism of the SawStop is intriguing.
There are a few who have boosted the SawStop to be the be-all and end-all in safety, quality and technology. I'm not buying that.
From what I can tell, the SS is an advance,even a significant advance in safety technology. From what others have said, it appears to be well made. Whether it will remain reliable over the long haul- like the PM, Unisaws and Generals of 20 years ago remains to be seen. Whether the company will be around in 20 years is another question I am uncertain of.
I have to buy a new TS and I will probably go with the General. The new PM with the riving knife is interesting, but I would want to know more about PMs quality (which has become an issue in resent years).
As for safety, a splitter or RK, a decent guard with DC capabilities, safety glasses and a careful woodworker are hard to beat.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
What you say makes sense, as there are many factors besides safety to consider when parting with the precious moolah.
I've often thought about the American TS tradition in comparison to the European. Virtually all European tablesaws of any quality at all have blade-following riving knives attached to the arbor. You don't have to make a choice as there isn't one, unless you were rich enough to import a TS from the States (I'm thinking of the postage). But American tablesaws tend to be beefier and more powerful per dollar.
A friend of mine did bring back a Rigid when he returned from living and working in Atlanta. I must admit I would love to have the ability to run a dado set, as he did. Dado sets are also regarded in Europe as inherently dangerous lacking, as they are, a riving knife. You can only buy a little tidger of a dado for my Sheppach TS, for instance, that will do 15mm dados at most; and dire safety warnings about using heavy hold-downs etc. are pasted all over it.
But the Rigid's poor guard (like you mention) and splitter set way back from the blade made me extremely nervous. I am a careful woodworker, of course - except when I forget. :-)
When I read about the saw-stop I liked the idea. As I remember, the guys who invented it couldn't get any of the established manufacturers to take it up (they said "too costly") so they made their own. I admit, I wish the European manufacturers would take it up - I would buy one, as I know the longer I WW (and the older I get) the more chance there is of a finger (or worse) going bye-bye. And I hate the sight of blood, especially mine.
Lataxe,
I was wondering what a replacement cartridge costs on the Saw Stop tablesaw?
Thanks,
Bill
Brake Cartridge for 10" blade $69
Brake Cartridge for 8" dado sets $89
Cheers
Thanks, Dude.
This is only one of many variables, and possibly one of the less likely variables. What happens if the saw stop mechanism fails over time and people get injured or killed and the company gets sued in a class action lawsuit. They don't have to lose to go bankrupt, they just have to get tangled up in a long drawn out lawsuit. Look at the gun industry for example. Cost of manufacturing may become an issue, materials cost for some aspect of this new design may skyrocket on the commodities market. What happens when SawStop or their subcontractors can't keep up with demand? Production snarls may cost the company millions and damage their customer relations. Look at Boeing or Apple computer for examples of what happens when your product is 'too popular', unexpected success kills many companies. Then there's always greed and incompetence, company insiders pilfer profits from the company e.g. Tyco, WorldCOM, and a good design does NOT translate into a well run business! The reality is there are many reasons a company can fail, only time will tell what happens with this company. Buying their product is a gamble, just like with any other company these days.
Jeff
Don't forget that the blade in use at the time is totalled, too, which adds to the cost. But since it should only fire if contacted by human flesh during operation, well, that price seems pretty worthwhile.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
At least you are consistent in your leaning towards puchasing a General (assuming Canada or G 350). Consistent in regards to the PM 2000 being new and unproven. PM 2000 is a nice looking machine indeed and riving knife is big plus... built in castors too. I have a tendency to beleive the General Canada slightly edges out PM 66 based on reading discussion groups, but not positive. You can't go wrong with General Canada or PM 66.
Cheers
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