Cabinet saw suggestions, Anyone?
fourquarter
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
We are in the process of buying a new cabinet saw. Any suggestions? Powermatic, Delta, Jet, etc. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Replies
Four,
I do not have a personal viewpoint, but last Saturday while shopping at Woodcrafters I started chatting with a cabinet maker from the area. He strongly recommended the Powermatic. He was convinced that the weight really matters, and the precision differential is very important. Also, he had just upgraded to a used Northfield with a sliding fense. (Huh?)
One of the counter guys, an old timer, felt just as strongly about the Delta and it comes wired.
My question to you is what color would go best with your decor?...lol
I say
Currently I use a very old and much rebuilt Craftsman, but I to am looking at upgrading soon. If cost is no object, I would certainly go with the Powermatic. Given the limitation of cost, the Jet might be a good choice, BUT, I have also been looking at the new Shopfox, imported by Woodstock International. I haven't used it but looking at it in the local candystore, side by side with the Jet, it appears to be of better quality. Just the miter gauge is impressive weighing about 10# or better. It comes in left tilt only, my personal preference. Keep us informed of your choice and the eventual judgement of that choice.
Lee,
I too looked at the Shop Fox a couple months ago before buying a Jet. I didn't care for the short rails, but that was no big deal. I can't quite put my finger on it, but somehow the machine looked a bit crude or, better, unfinished.
I'd like to see a good review done to check performance and accuracy. (Are any FWW editors reading this?) Perhaps some other members are familiar with the saw and can pass on some information.
You're right, the mitre gauge on that puppy is incredible!
Jeff
Jeff, long rails are optional. My candystore said only $20 extra, well worth the price, I'd say.
They did have both the Jet and the Shopfox side by side and the SF had a superior table surface and seemed somewhat heavier. The wheels had a better feel to them.
As long as I can keep my old Craftsman running accurately, I'm not in a hurry to spend the money. I am hoping to wait until I can get more info from various sources on the overall quality level, but playing with it in the store, I'm impressed. Basic price here was $1099 or $1119 with the long rails. The Jet was about $300 more. Whatever I wind up getting will have a left tilt, however.We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.
-- C. S. Lewis
Lee,
Wow, those prices are high! Where are you, New York or California? I bought my Jet in Green Bay for $1259 including extension table.
Jeff
I am located in rural southwestern Oregon, Cave Junction to be exact, 30 miles SSW of Grants Pass. The candystore is a small independent dealer in Grants Pass, BJ's Tools. I've done business with them for 10+ years. I might find a slightly better deal in Medford, another 30 miles away, but I prefer to support the small guys close by. I won't be buying immediately anyway, maybe 2-4-6 months out.
LEEESCHEN:
I saw the Shop Fox when I went to get a S/F mortiser. I liked it over-all. The miter gauge probally could be used as an anchor for a naval destroyer. Ha.. Didn't have time to look as closely as I'd liked.
I agree with Jeff, wait for some reviews. Why find out you were wrong on something you hopefully will only purchase once. Let someone else find out for you at that price! IMO......
sarge..jt
4/4,
Go with the Jet - it's white and will work well with any color scheme.
Seriously, Delta, Jet, Powermatic are all excellent machines. The Jet is the least expensive of the three; the Delta offers two different fences; the Powermatic is the heaviest, but also the most expensive. Don't forget to check out General, Grizzly, et al. to broaden your choices. Find the machine you like best, and then buy the best you can afford.
Check out the tool review section on the FWW main sight. The cabinet saw tests seem very fair. Let us know what you decide.
Jeff
Check the magazines each month, there are alot of them and one may have an article on cabinet saws. I know this month there is a lead story in one of them on table saws. All the saws already mentioned are good and you will most likely enjoy the one you choose. Jet is 100% Taiwanese made, Powermatic is half Taiwanese and half U.S. and the General is Canadian made. Delta's could be part or all Taiwanese made, not sure but all their jointers are no longer manufactured in the U.S. The best of the bunch is Northfield and it's U.S. made but very very pricey.
Good Luck - Lar
Edited 9/7/2002 1:02:50 AM ET by Lar
I recently went through this dilema after injuring my Craftsman contractors saw beyond economical repair.
I looked at the Powermatic, Delta, Jet, and ShopFox. I purchased the Shop Fox, as all dealers for PM, Delta, and Jet were all set at the same price and would not negotiate. The Shop Fox suited my needs, and the dealer has been very accommodating. For my needs, I could not justify the extra $600-$1200 for a jet, delta, or PM machine. I can and have purchased alot of other equipment out of my budget with the savings. Presently I do not have room for the 52" rails, but will be getting a larger shop in the near future. I can also upgrade the 52" rails later for $120.
I had a few minor problems with the saw, the motor drawing excessive current to be one of the issues. The dealer is coming out tomorrow to replace the motor for me from his floor model. ( my replacement for warranty are sitting somewhere in a Consolidated Freight van on a rail car here in socal)
For the money, it is a hard saw to beat, unless you get the Grizzly.
My personal bias is the PM66. It will eat wood faster than you can haul it, then sit there and grin at you. When you set it, things DON'T change. Even if you don't lock the blade. Vibration? Barely detectable. I really like the magnetic start switch. Have mine rigged with a lexan plate in front where I can turn it off with my knee if nessessary. not all saws come with that kind of switch. Maybe that's where part of the 2K price comes in. If you can swing the money, go for the 66. (You'll also love that polished table top.)
Dear Fourquarter.
Not that i am an expert but i have been woodworking since i was ten years old, (started back in Sweden.) I'm now 70 and the best saw i have ever owned was a Powermatic 66. I gor crazy one day and changed to a combination machine - (dumb move). My advice - for what it is worth - get a Powermatic 66. It rips like a dream with a Forest blade in it.
sel0996
Before you buy a saw check with Memphismachinery.com I have Bought 2 Powermatic 66's from them they were used but there tech's go over them with a fine tooth comb and with a 50 in table "right of the blade" and for the price of them I decided that i could get 2 saws for th price of one new powermatic jsut a thought and a very good place to check. I got the 5hp 3 phs saws also for i use them every day to make furniture any more info you need just E me Barry
General. Best value in that class (Northfield is not in that class). Search the archives for more opinons.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I had my heart set on the General. The lack of a local supplier/dealer led to the Unisaw. I'm not regretting the dicision but will always wonder what I'm missing. I looked at the General at a recent WW show here in Seattle. I really liked the design of the trunion setup.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
The dealer came out and replaced my motor and wings on my Shop Fox cabinet saw. So far I am very happy with the saw, it beats the craftsman contractors saw that I had by a mile. The fit & finish aren't nearly what a PM66 is, but hopefully it will allow me to generate the funds to move up to a PM66 in the future.
Dennis,
What did you think of the General fence and rail system compared to the others at the show? Is the unifence the only fencerail that's available as an after market product? While looking for a new fence, I can't find write ups on the fences from PM, General, Jet, Shop Fox, etc. It's like a Delta only world out there.
Don
The General dealer, in Portland (Barbo, I think) had the saw at the show set up with the General fence which is the same as the Bies. Or so the General rep at the show said. I believe he said the Bies was developed *from* the general design but please, PLEASE don't quote me on that. In response to your question,though, I think the Biesmeyer is available for about any mainline mfr. of cabinet saw.
The only two fences I looked at in the process of researching my saw purchase were the unifence (Delta) - which for my taste was entirely too fussy. Too many gadget like things going on. And the Bies. - so totally elegant in its simplicity. I would think that any fence based on the T-square concept ala Biesmeyer would be pretty good.
A friend just bought an older 12" Delta/Rockwell contractor's table saw that has a cable system that works to maintain parallel-ism. Similar to the parallel rules drafters use in the drafting room (showing my age here -grin-). I haven't seen it but it sounds pretty intriguing. If it's in good shape and the cables are beefy enough, it should maintain exact parallel and repeatability once set up.
Dennis in Bellevue WA [email protected]
Edited 9/12/2002 2:28:44 PM ET by DENNIS02
Dennis,
I think I'd take that info from the General dealer with a grain of salt. Could be true, but could be sales hype also.
The Beismeyer along with the HTC, Incra and others are all after market products as far as I know? I don't believe they make saws also. It just seems that Delta is the only company that pushes their fence as an after market product also. I understand the fitting considerations, but I don't understand why no one else is pushing their fence. If PM makes such a good saw, I'd like to consider their fence also. Hmmm?
I did my share of drafting in college and HS. I remember those string operated sliding squares. They were always accurate for drafting. The triangles sat on them, so whatever the square was out, the triangle was out with it. Seems like it would be fussy to set that system up to match something like a blade which is always in a stationary position.
Don
Edited 9/12/2002 3:09:26 PM ET by Don C.
Edited 9/12/2002 3:09:59 PM ET by Don C.
> .... Seems like it would be fussy to set [cable/pulley] system up to match something like a blade which is always in a stationary position.
Pushing the thread even further from it's title ....
How so?
If I had one like it, I can envision using the miter slot as the setpup reference, assuming it in turn had been tuned perfectly with the blade. Loosen the clamp that holds the cable, tweak the fence to where it needs to be, then thighten the clamp. Given a stout cable under slight tension and no spring in the system like the drafting parallel bars along with a good positive clamping mechanism to immobilize the cable, it should be dead on each and every time.
That gives me some ideas for building my own panel saw in fact. The whole mechanism scales up quite easily.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I don't know Dennis. Maybe it's just my luck, but cables to me seem like one of those things that when you go to lock them down they're right on until you do lock them down. Then you loosen them and try again. By point was just that it doesn't matter on a drafting table because it is the reference with nothing to match it to. The blade is the reference on a table. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's something I imagine myself fussing over, but once there, it is there.
Don
I realize we are pushing the thread, but I've never seen a General except in pictures. Just wondered what your impression of the fence was.
Edited 9/12/2002 3:30:52 PM ET by Don C.
> ...I've never seen a General except in pictures. Just wondered what your impression of the fence was.
Understand, Don, I'm seeing things from the perspective of little practical experience in these matters. None the less ....
I thought the General's fit & finish were superb. The cabinet is, I believe, a heavier ga steel than the Delta but don't know how it compares with the PM. The trunion assembly is designed so the arbor shaft is supported on both ends. That is, the motor pulleys are held in a yolk type casting so the arbor shaft isn't cantilevered off the bearing. I think, and I stress I *THINK* the treatment for of the cast iron table top is somewhat superior to my Unisaw. The finish certainly is better on the General. I didn't have the opportunity to examine the flatness thereof but the quality of the rest of the machine, if it held true for the table, would be impressive.
Unfortunately, as I type all this, it occurs to me that your asking about the General fence and not the saw. As I (think I) said earlier, as I remember it was a T-square system similar if not identical to the Bies. I didn't pay a great deal of attention to it since I had my mind made up! (g)
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I have three Generals, between my school shop and my own....two Biesemeyers and one General fence. The word around here is that the General fence is beefier, made from heavier gauge steel....I can't compare them directly right now, as they are in different places, but it may be correct. The General fence is at least the equal of the Bies. And based on the experience I had of trying to order some replacement parts....now that Bies. is part of the world renowned Delta abysmal service network....I won't be ordering any more. Months to get some simple parts.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Hi Adrian -
Thanks for the reply RE: Bies vs General fences. I mentioned the chat with the General rep. more for confirmation than anything. I know better than to take one person's word for anything, especially when he/she's trying to sell me something (grin)
I looked at the General early on in my TS shopping schedule and wasn't congizant of all the issues. What the General rep. tried to claim was that their trunion design was unique in the TS design world. Is that ineed the case?
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
I did not see the General until after I bought my PM 66. The US/Canadian exchange rate is favorable to the US dollar, so the General is several hundred dollars cheaper than the PM 66. They are both stocked at a local tool dealer where I carefully looked both of them over.
The overall Canadian made machine (do not confuse with the Taiwan made General International) is excellent. The cast iron wings come attached and aligned from the factory. The trunnion is massive. The fit and finish is excellent. It does not have the polished top that the PM has, but that is not a bog deal. The fence is "essentially" Biesemeyer.
In the US, the General is probably the best value in a cabinet saw, based on quality per dollar, in my opinion. You can get cheaper, but not better for the money.
Mike
I think a previous thread about the biesy fence was that Mr Beisy never patented his fence or applied and left it at application and never followed through. And that most of the clones use his fence and have made minor changes +/- to make it their own.
But ive noticed not a single clone has ever denied it not being a clone.
> ...In the US, the General is probably the best value in a cabinet saw, based on quality per dollar, in my opinion. You can get cheaper, but not better
for the money.
I was, actually, very impressed with the quality "look", anyway, of the machine. As I mentioned, I would have had to go all the way to Portland to buy one. Which wouldn't have been such a bad thing since the savings on sales tax over what you pay in WA state would have paid for the trip.
Guess I'll never know what I'm missing (grin).
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
A freiend of mine who is an engineer by trade and a hobbyist woodworker made his own fence system with cables and pullys. He mounted it onto an old contractors saw and the fence moves like it is riding on air. I don't know if it is hard to align or to keep in alignment. I'll see if I can get a photo to post.
Mike
> ....A freiend of mine who is an engineer by trade and a hobbyist woodworker made his own fence system with cables and pullys. He mounted it onto an old contractors saw and the fence moves like it is riding on air. I don't know if it is hard to align or to keep in alignment.
The principle of the parallel bar as used in the drafting room is really pretty simple. It doesn't sound like it, but it's extremely stable if the cable is clamped securely so the bar, or fence pulleys can't move. Yet at the same time, the bar/fence will just glide from side to side (or up and down in the case of the drafting rule) almost without effort. For anyone doubting this, keep in mind that clamping the fence or bar is a thing apart from clamping the cable so to pulleys don't slip but rather roll on the cable. I'll see if I can make a drawing of how it works if you're interested.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
All of the t-square fence designs are similar. General actually makes theirs under license from Biesemeyer. The Accufence on my PM66 works great.
HTC's new afternarket fence incorporates a micro-adjust feature that looks interesting, but I have not seen it.
I think that Biesemeyer pretty much has teh market cornered for aftermarket sales.
Mike
> ....All of the t-square fence designs are similar.
I've been noticing that ...
Tonight shopping at Home Depot, waiting for the wife to find *her* stuff, I naturally said I'd meet her in the tool department. Looking over the Bosch, Rigid, etc. contractor's saws they had on the floor, most were, in general, using the same T-square principle. The difference is in the ease with which they can be moved side to side and how well they stay parallel while moving without being clamped.
I suspect any one of them is workable, you just need to be aware of their eccentricities.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I scrutinized over the Delta Unisaw, Jet and Powermatic and bought the PM 66, 5 HP, 230 V. I have not looked back. It was a great buy. The fit finish and precision are excellent. A few years down the road, I'll ask myself why I even bothered worrying about the extra several hundred bucks.
I believe that the Jet is not a true cabinet saw, as the trunnion assembly is mounted to the table top, not the cabinet, as in true cabinet saws. This makes blade alignment much harder than in a true cabinet saw.
A friend of mine who bragged about his Unisaw for a couple of years got tired of fixing things on his three year old Unisaw and "traded up" to a PM 66. He is now a happy camper.
Mike
I'm going to add only this.
I've seen and used many saws. I have worked with generals and have a general int.
contracters saw. the general cabinet was ok. I'd rank the general closer to the delta
and in california Juniors Tools carried the line for six months, then dumped the line. NObody supports this machine, I want to get a splitter but i'm not sure the tool I have is Identical to the powermatic 64. And the rear of my saws blade moves toward the fence when I raise the blade... I don't care for general.
I have seen a abused powermatic and the owner of the shop knew it. the delta was an assembly table they both had big tables around them. The school I went too had two delta that did not work well. a general that was never used (it worked ok) and two very smooth straight powermatics some of theother deltas worked very staight. The general did not feel like the powermatic.
Edited 9/13/2002 12:05:46 AM ET by john
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