A few questions about cabinet saws. First what is the difference between a regular cabinet saw and a unisaw? Second, what is the difference between single phase and three phase, and which is better? also for a normal basement shop making furniture and cabinets is 3hp enough, or should you really go for 5? and lastly I have heard a lot of bad things about grizzly products and have experienced some of it to a lesser degree, but does anyone have any experience with their cabinet saws?
Any and All help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance Rick Barlow
Replies
A Unisaw IS a regular cabinet saw, the Delta brand. As to which brand of cabinet saw to get, that is the subject of much discussion and opinion. One factor is the relative cost of the various brands. However, since a cabinet saw is likely to last you a lifetime, a $200 or even $2000 difference in price becomes relatively unimportant in the long run (unless, of course, you don't have that extra money at the time you are buying). The various internet forums (WoodNet Forums for one) have thousands of entries discussing the subject. A good tablesaw book--for example, Kelly Mehler's--can be very helpful.
Your house has single-phase electricity. Three-phase is usually found in professional shops. On ebay you see a lot of 3-phase equipment going cheap. That's because not too many people have access to 3-phase power, You can get a converter (two different types) for 1-phase to 3-phase, but for the average home woodworker, it doesn't make much sense or economy to do that. Most home woodworkers find 3 horsepower perfectly adequate, although some people think 5 horsepower helps them get work done faster, especially if they do a lot of it.
Grizzly has good tools for the money. Many owners of their cabinet saws are very pleased with their performance. Also, you find Jet, General, General International, Bridgewood, Shop Fox, Powermatic, SawStop, and many others. Google "table saw reviews" for more information. A whole other subject is the European-style sliding table equipment, but then you are talking real money. Take some time to educate yourself if you want to make a good decision if you plan to get a table saw.
You just had to say Grizzly didnt you. Here we go again :)
he he he...
No, I don't comment on tools I don't own or use.
Edited 11/1/2005 7:30 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
A regular cabinet saw won't/can't compair to a Unisaw.
A saw for a basement shop needs at minimum a 5hp motor.
Three phase is better than single phase because more is always better.
You just opened Pandora's box with the mention of the "G" word.
DJK
"A regular cabinet saw won't/can't compair to a Unisaw.A saw for a basement shop needs at minimum a 5hp motor.Three phase is better than single phase because more is always better."What planet do you live on DJK???
What planet? Actually, I reside in the same state as you. Might be your neighbor. Just listen for the whine of the saw or the noise from the planer and you might find the planet.I run three Unisaws and a PM 66. Two Unisaws and the PM66 are 5hp, one Unisaw is 3hp all three phase. I should install a 5hp motor on it, I have a few spares lying around. In my basement shop are the PM66 and two 5hp Unisaws. The 3hp saw is in the garage. Most of my machines are 3phase and run off a rotory converter. Used three phase machines are dirt cheap to purchase and the motors are more relieable than single phase, more is better.DJK
A unisaw IS a regular cabinet saw, you just have it on a pedestal. Personally, I like my Grizzly more than my last saw and not because it's bigger. I check the parts that I cut regularly but haven't needed to adjust anything and I use the same scale to measure everything instead of grabbing the one that's closest(that just introduces a variable). Delta made that style of saw first and pretty much wrote the book on it. Delta is hardly the company they once were and it's not because they're better than before. I had an old Rockwell/Delta 8" and, while it was a nice old saw, I didn't think it was really special. The Delta machinery we had in the woodshop when I was in HS was sweet, but the shop teachers were very meticulous about maintaining all of the equipment and the metalworking teacher was phenomenal when it came to making replacement parts. Remember the thread from someone in Michigan who bought a Unisaw that had a ton of problems, ranging to not being adjustable to cracks in the cast iron but no broken packing and a bent arbor shaft? Delta didn't seem too interested in making it right, IIRC.Let's try to be objective here and not just make it up as we go along(5HP and three phase because more is better?). In almost all cases I have seen, it was the operator who was responsible for the errors in either setting up the machine, keeping the blade sharp and clean or not letting the wood move while being cut. Great pieces of woodworking were made far before great tools. It would be fantastic to machine wood to the same tolerances as metal but wood doesn't have the dimensional stability.(By the way, if you have a basement that allows you to put your 5 HP saw and manuever sheet goods down there, I have to consider you to be very lucky or you had the foresight to include that as a requirement for your basement.)
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Boy, are you going to get a lot of different responses. First, the cabinet saw is a type of saw, and the Unisaw is the Delta (as others have said). It's really comes down to personal preference, needs, and don't forget budget. I am a hobbyist and have a garage (same as basement) shop need. I have used everything from a small tabletop saw (painful experience), to a shopsmith, to the new cabinet saw. I did a lot of research and my budget was around 1k. I looked at used ones, and hybrids (some of the benefits of the cabinet saw), and ended up getting the Grizzly 1023slx. It's a great saw. Recently some people have come out talking about Grizzly, but if you do a search here on cabinet saws and grizzly, I think you will find positive responses. I'll see if I can't find my original post and send you a link. One big difference between the cabinet saw and the hybrid or contractors saw is how the motor is attached. In a cabinet saw the mechanism for raising and lowering and tilting the blade is part of the base and the top is independent. This makes it easier to align, and tune. That does not make the other types bad, just different. The cabinet saw is heaver and generally will have less vibration. My Grizzly easily passed the nickle test (stand a nickle on it's edge and start the saw, if it does not fall, it passes). They also generally have sturdy fence systems. As to horsepower, if money is no object, then the 5hp is nice, but I have not had mine bind on anything yet with the 3hp. Three phase in a residential area is rare, and would cost a lot of money. I would recommend at least 220 volts for your saw, but single phase, and ensure you have enough space in your panel to accommodate the load. Grizzly is a fine brand. I own the table saw, 17" bandsaw and a horizontal boring machine. Powermatic, Delta, and Jet, also make fine tools. It's all about choice and preference. You can spend 5k on a saw if you choose. It's up to you. Hope this helps. Good luck on the choice. Also, don't take one site as gospel, look around and get a lot of input.
Thank you for all for your replies. It's helps tremendously. For my budget grizzly seems to give the most for less. And Really wanted to hear some good feed back on their cabinet saws and didn't know if I should try and save a buck or just save and get a powermatic. Another question I have is, which is better right or left tilt is there a difference other than the obvious?
Edited 10/29/2005 10:16 am ET by rbarlow
rbarlow,
I have a griz cabinet saw and love it. I cannot remember anyone on here complaining about their griz cabinet saw in the last several years...whatever model they chose. I went right tilt for cost reasons...now I'd prefer it if I were chosing again because of the handle placement.(I'm left handed)
thank you for your reply is that the only reason to for right or left tilt? I have know idea which I should buy. I am right handed though does that make a difference?
The difference is really about the blade in relationship to the fence. Look at the pictures on the web site or download the pdf manuals and you will see that the left tilts away from the fence, while the right tilts into the fence. If you do an advance search on left .vs. right you will find varous pro's and con's for each. For myself I went with the left, because I did not want my blade tilted at the fence. Do a search and you will see it's an issue all to it's self. I don't think you will find the difference in price material. Good luck.
Thanks to everyone for the help. This is by far this best forum I have been to. I am pretty to new to woodworking so all this info helps tremendously. After a few more months of saving I will hopefully be a proud new owner of a Grizzly cab saw with enough money left over to buy the wood for the bedroom set my wife has been wanting me to build!
I don't know what you have in mind for blades, but if you do a search here, they have been discussed in pretty good depth, too. Even some input from CharlesM, from Freud. For what it's worth, I have a Forrest WoodWorker II for finish cuts, an Oldham 60 tooth for general cutting and a 60 tooth Freud that I haven't used much, yet. I have the Grizzly G1023S and added the 7' rails. I'll be adding an outfeed arrangement soon, just haven't decided quite how to do it without adding a lot of weight. Very happy with the saw and blades. Very happy.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
rbarlow,
As Bones suggest, taking a look at the pdf file would probably reveal that the bump-out for the motor on the right tilt is on the right and under the extension table...with the handle that controls the tilt is on the left. The reverse is true with a left tilt. I find it easier with the handle on the left. Also, the left/right issue impacts measurments if you use the afixed measuring tape...and a thicker blade or dado set. in other words, the arbor is in reverse position and (with left tilt) added blades move to the right when thicker (hope this makes sense). But, again, none of this is of great signifiance and is relative to your own thoughts on these subjects.
It was my understanding when I bought my saw that the left tilt is less is less prone to kick back since it tilts away from the fence and so is safer to operate. I bought the PM. Also it was a 600 lb. saw while the other common ones were only 450 lbs. Hence has less vibration. I can't verify these assumptions.
This is true on beveled cuts, but on the vast majority of cuts with the blade square to the table there isn't a difference. USE a splitter regardless the the way the blade tilts.
A have to agree with BG about the Grizzly saw(I have the G1023S and added the 7' rails). Mine is almost 5 years old and it has been great, needing no adjustments or repairs. It's been my observation that the people dumping on the Grizzly saw don't own one. I remember seeing more problems and dissapointment in other brands. I have seen comments like "the wings don't line up with the table, the fence isn't square, the blade isn't parallel to the miter slots and the cast iron used to warp in the past". The first three are adjustment issues and the last one doesn't even need to be considered since it hasn't been said about a new saw, and those are the ones we are talking about. 5 HP is nice, but not absolutely necessary. If the stock isn't forced, even a 1.5 HP would work as long as the blade is sharp and the saw is adjusted properly. 3 phase? In a house? When is the last time anybody saw that?The Saw Stop has the riving knife, but there are aftermarket splitters that should work. If we don't like the ones out there, maybe we should come up with a list of requirements and design one that works better than the others. I'm sure a lot of us know someone with/at a machine shop.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
As pointed out above, Unisaw is just Delta's brand name for their cabinet saw. Good cabinet saws are made by a number of other manufacturers; proponents for each brand can be found here. As you narrow down your selection, post here and ask for folks' experience with the particular models you consider.
Three phase means there are three "hot" wires coming from your power company. Most residences have two "hot" wires and a neutral; you get 110 between one of the hots and the neutral, and 220 from the two hots. If you are in an industrial setting, and have access to 3 phase power, you may consider machines that use three phase power. Otherwise, limit your selection to 110v machines and 220v machines, single-phase. As another poster pointed out, you can convert standard power to three-phase, but there is a nontrivial investment to make to do so, and the result is inefficient. If you wish to consider that path, you have a bit to learn.
I can't give a direct answer for 3HP versus 5HP, though for myself I bought a 5HP saw because, at only a $50 premium, it just wasn't worth worrying about. I've seen reputable people saying they've had bogging with 3HP, and equally reputable people say they've never had a problem. And some folks have done awesome work with <2HP 110v contractor and even bench top machines. At least one blade manufacturer representative recommends thin kerf blades for underpowered saws, which he defined as <3HP.
Read all the threads you can on this board and, as suggested above, look elsewhere too. Decisions you have to be prepared to make:
New or used? If you're comfortable with evaluating and possibly fixing older machinery, many here will tell you that you can both save money and get a better machine with used equipment. And unless you're going to buy new every few years, this is competence you're going to have to obtain at some point anyway. (Still, I bought new.)
Do you have a local dealer for any of the brands, that you can count on to give you good service? If this is desirable to you, it may affect the brands you consider.
What can you afford to spend?
Do you have a fence system preference? This is a place where it's really good to be able to get your hands on a real machine, and ideally do some setups and put some wood through it.
The truth is, all the reputable machines will hold up a piece of stock and slice through wood. I ended up with gray, but I'd be just as happy if my saw was green or yellow or whatever. My TS is gray, but my jointer is green, and I don't know the color of the band saw I'll buy next year. :)
As far as I can tell, the only place where brand loyalty makes life significantly better is in cordless tools, for obvious reasons. I've seen reports of problems in every brand, and satisfied users of every brand. Which is pretty obvious, or they'd be out of business.
I found a really good deal on my saw ($1799 after cash rebate for a 5 HP Biesmeyer, with free shipping and mobile base) at toolsplus.com. They've treated me very well, and I'd recommend them if you're considering an Internet dealer.
Good luck! I really enjoyed all the input I got here, and feel it helped me make a good decision in the end.
Rick, Welcome to Knots. You will find with a little reading that you will be able to sort the straight forward answers from the far out ideas as to what is needed in the basement workshop. The idea that 5 HP is needed is like saying you need 400 HP in your car if you want to drive across state. Please take these responses with a grain of salt, or better yet, talk to some people who are building the things that you would like to build.
Roy
Well, I think you're exaggerating a bit. If he considers a 5 HP over a 3 HP, that's a 66% boost; given a 130 baseline for a small car (like a Ford Focus), a comparable boost is suggesting a 216 HP car (like a V6 Taurus), not a 400 HP behemoth.
Anyway, I sure don't represent that he needs 5 HP. Heck, I only got that much because for $50 it was a painless decision. Plus my intention is to work with thick hardwood stock, and a few folks told me the extra juice could prove convenient in that case.
Vulcan, You make a good point with your math. I did exaggerate a bit, a tendency I have when trying to make a point. Perhaps I should have simply said that either will get you there. In any event, I think it's safe to say that many of us would have bought the 5 over a 3 for the difference of only $50. On occasion I have bought bigger or better than needed when the price differential seemed insignificant. I found that with my 1.5 HP Delta Contractor a good rip blade solved my problem ripping 3" oak. The Woodworker II (combination blade)works fine for nearly everything else. So do I need 5 HP? No, but it would no doubt make the job go faster when the going gets tough. Thanks for keeping me honest.
Roy
Thanks for keeping me honest.
And thank you for keeping it civil, as I try to do as well. There's just so much bad blood here lately; I much prefer your tone. It's clear to me that the reason you jumped in was to help the person who posted with his questions, so we don't lead him astray. :)
In any case, I agree with your real point, and hopefully the person who started this thread is getting a good perspective on these issues.
last year i bought a 3 hp left tilt powermatic 66 cab saw. nice enough saw with more than enough power for my needs. i hate the stop button. way too small to try to find when finished with a cut. also got the router lift set up. have not touched it. prefer dedicated router table. in hindsight, router lift gets in the way of the of the full rip capacity.
if i had to do again, i would look at a "saw stop" saw only because of the riving knife setup. and i would look at a unisaw, i prefer the unisaw fence.
after owning the pm 66, can't say the pm is worth the extra$$ over the unisaw. however, i have not had any problems with the saw either. good fit and finish and quality. made in the usa. not sure if they have moved production of the saw though.
The Unisaw (model name), manufactured by Delta is a cabinet saw that has most of the same charateristics of the standard cabinet saw. Delta makes two cabinet saws and a hybrid that looks like a one but isn't. Their original version was and still is known as the Unisaw. The normal indicators of a true cabinet saw are usually that it has a minimum of 3hp, a dual or tripple fixed tension pulley/belt drive system and a fully enclosed base cabinet that serves as the mounting platform for the trunion system.
3 phase vs. 1 phase. As was stated before most homes are wired for single phase. In order to provide enough current, most utility companies bring two phases in and split them up between the homes or businesses providing 100amps of service to each user. In order to get 3 phase, the Electric Utilities company must bring in the third phase which means a new wire all the way from the closest available source. It might be a few hundred feet or it could be a few miles. It is usually very expensive and sometimes unavailable.
However, if you find a 3 phase saw that meets your expectations and is in your price range, you can buy a simple phase converter for between 150.00 and 300.00 that can get your saw up and running. The saw you choose should have at least 1/3 more horsepower than you feel you need because that is what you'll loose when you use a phase converter of the less expensive variety.
Steve
"You can either be smart or pleasant, I was once smart but now I'm pleasant. I like being pleasant better." Jimmy Stewart - Harvey
Just about any cabinet saw is, because of its design, going to outperform contractor or hybrid saws. As many have said, the Unisaw is Delta's model name. It was among the first, hitting the market in the 30's I believe. They have changed but little over the years, with most parts for today's model still fitting my circa 1945 model. Powermatic model 66 is another strong brand. It used to be that Unisaw was right tilt only and Powermatic is left tilt only. The Canadian brand General 350 is often considered to be the best of the "big three" because of high quality fit and finish, and a little extra weight. Distribution in the U.S. is much more sparse.
Past the big three you have a number of import brands. The designs are generally straight knockoffs of the Unisaw, and the major differences are matters of fit and finish that occasionally, but only occasionally, affect performance. All brands can come with defects, it is a matter of what the probability of getting a defective model. A well made cabinet saw can be expected to outlive its owner, and return a healthly percentage of its purchase price if needed to be sold, so there is little reason, except absolute necessity, to skimp on its purchase.
There is another variety of saw not mentioned here so far, and a bit a field from your question. These are the "Euro/slider saws". These are designed from the ground up to use a sliding table for passing the wood past the blade. These provide much better handling of panel materials--plywood and such. However this comes at dramatically higher cost for these saws mostly manufactured in Europe. Brands include Hammer, Felder, Laguna, MiniMax, Rojak--among others. Mostly these are for professional cabinet shops.
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