I read articles where the author is lyrical about the quality of finish he/she achieves with a cabinet scraper.
So, having finally tuned up my #4 and me to the point where I can get a decent surface from my smooth plane when working on a curly maple practice piece – I broke out the cabinet scraper and went for a “really” smooth finish.
Messed the heck out of my nice satiny-smooth surface left by the #4 with a 60 degree edge on the iron. Left it looking and feeling “fuzzy”. And, I did too have the scraper sharp – I was making shavings, not dust.
Am I just not getting the technique yet? Or is this one of those Zen things?
Mike D
Replies
Mike;
I suspect that you have turned the burr on your scraper using fairly heavy pressure. Remarkably little pressure is required to turn a proper burr and inexperienced users commonly will press too hard. This will have the effect of fracturing the burr and giving you a jagged saw-toothed edge. Such an edge will take an aggressive bite but leave a ridged, dull and rough-appearing surface. Because the curl of the burr determines cut depth, over pressuring during burnishing can also create a curl that is too deep and result in an overly deep bite from the scraper which will affect smoothness adversely.
I do not particularly buy the scraper-as-ultimate surface finishing myth though. I prefer a sanded surface and tend to use my scrapers as an intermediate step between planing and sanding. Because of the way that I use them, I am usually resharpening my scrapers before they get that ultimate smooth scraping action. I like mine to be more aggressive than that.
To get the smoother cuts, it is also important to "draw" the edges of your scrapers before turning the burrs. This is done by burnishing the edges with the burnisher held nearly paralell with the flat sides of the scraper. You may be doing this already but I thought it worthy of mentioning.
I've hit the gold mine in great answers this morning.
This one is printed out and is accompanying me to the shop later as I have certainly applied a heavy hand to turning my scraper edges. Well, I didn't actually wrinkle the edges, but I was firm, so to speak.
Thanks,
Mike D
You are welcome Mike. You can probably guess how I knew about this common mistake... yeah, that's right I made it too. Scraping is hard to learn from books and magazines. It is a whole lot simpler if you have a skilled mentor to teach you in person. I have learned most of my woodworking skills without such a luxury... so I've made just about all the mistakes along the way. I guess I loved it enough to keep on going though.
Another thing that I have found is that stoning my scrapers is unfruitful, possibly even harmful. I use a large fine cut file and a burnisher to do all my scraper edging.
BTW, if you turn, put a burr on your turning scrapers too... it just about eliminates catches, makes for much smoother cuts and is lots faster besides. Note that the burr changes the angle of the cutting surface and so requires that you adjust the tool angle accordingly.
bigfoot,
put a burr on your turning scrapers too
Holey smokes, I never thought of that!
THANKS!,
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob;
You are welcome and try a burr on your parting tool too ( the diamond type). It will make life sweeter. It's best to mark the top edge when you set your parting tool up this way as it saves having to feel for the edge orientation and it will not get much done with the burr curled downward. Works great for turning tenons too when you put a burr on a beading chisel.
Clay
Clay,
I'm new to turning, as a matter of fact I have yet to turn a piece! I just got a ¾ HP motor for an old Dunlap lathes that I cleaned up and restored to working order. Next week I plan to set it up on a bench.
The other day while at Western Tool I stumbled on a pamphlet for a turning club that's within reasonable distence to me. I emailed the contact person and hope to join so as to get off on the right foot.
I'm basically a self taught woodmuncher and have never had any issues with all my other power tools. For some reason that little lathe has me a bit intimidated so I thought joing a club was the way to go.
As an aside, what are your thoughts on Robert Sorby chisels for a new turner? I like the long solid handles as I think they would offer good control. The ones I looked at were about 24" - 30" with about 1¾" diameter handles. I am thinking of starting out with a ¾" Roughing Gouge, Diamond Parting Tool, and a 3/8" Spindle Gouge.
Regards,
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob;
You will love the lathe! Sorby tools are quite good. You can get some really nice tools from the smaller specialty suppliers and individual turners who have developed their own lines. Sorby will be fine for starting though (you don't want to make major investments before you have a chance to learn what kind of turning you will be most attracted to). I also really like the Henry Taylor tools.
DO get a larger roughing tool though. My most used one is a Henry Taylor 1 and 1/4 inch gouge. I also have 1" and 3/4" roughing gouges, but rarely reach for them.
Otherwise your list looks pretty good but you will want a skew chisel too. Hey look I know they are scary, but don't forget that they are the most used chisel of all in most turners kits (with the possible exception of the roughing gouge).
I like the oval skews and I sharpen mine in the Raffan manner (with a convex cutting edge), though mine are a less radical curve than Raffan uses. The convex edges are better for peeling and smoothing or roughing cuts but NOT as good as a straight edge for tip cuts... so it is reasonable to have one (or more) of each.
The Richard Raffan videotapes are excellent BTW. I also think that you will enjoy your turning club. Turning can be very frustrating to begin with and a few simple lessons can make a huge difference. I am glad that you are beginning with a decent lathe as I started with a Shopsmith and it was years before I realized what a terrific handicap I was working under. When you can produce world class turnings with a Shopsmith you will sail before the wind on a good lathe.
Chips Ahoy... umm wait I think that's a cookie. Well any way I KNOW you'll be having fun!
Clay
Bob,
Turning allows a lot more options in making furniture. I came to it late (couple of years ago) but now a thang or four of mine has round bits and home-made knobs. Satifying.
When I bought the lathe (a 1HP Delta rebadged as summick else) the toolshop had a set of 6 HSS Robert Sorby chisels at a great price - half what you would pay if buying them individually. I have since seen this set o' six in quite a few places, so it may be a standard or ongoing offer.......
This set contains a 3/4"roughing gouge, 1/8 diamond parting, 3/8" bowl gouge, 3/8" spindle gouge, 1" oval skew and 3/4" round nosed scraper. They around 18 - 20" long - 12 inch ash handles with brass ferules, very well made and good performers. The HSS takes a very good edge, although I need a Tormek jig or two for them curved ones.
Since, I've added only a 3/8"parting, mounted in a sizing gauge, to make precise diameter rounds (eg round tenons for chair rungs). I only use the lathe for furniture - no bowls or sculptural fangdangles. I don't feel the need for any more turning chisels but use all those I have. Even the bowl gouge can be used to help make a spindle.....
Lataxe
Lataxe and bigfoot,
I just got email from the woodturners club, Twin State Woodturners and their next meeting in on the 19th of this month, in Rygate, VT.
They have invited me to attend and see if I want to join. It just happens that they are having an introductory session to woodturning. I will deninitely be there.
I figure this way I can get a better understanding of it and look over the shoulder of an experienced turner. Actually that's not all true; they told me to plan on trying it as part of the hands-on session. I'm psyched!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
There is a bit of mystique put about by turning folk concerning the lathe and its practices. However, once you have put yer hands on, you'll find it is no different from other WW skills - you read a bit of good advice, have a try and ...... Bob's yer uncle: you're a turner!
Seriously, it isn't hard. I read a goodly portion of the Richard R book on turning from Taunton then made an 18" spindle of straight-grain beech using every tool; turning every profile I could find. It took an hour or three but was a true learning experience (read, try, feedback, retry: done it)!
The lathe looks dangerous with all them whirling bits. Read up on how to move the tool over the work; how to set and use the rest; the correct speed for types of turning. Ye'll be reet, nae botha like. It seems to me much easier than learning how to use a plane to best effect. (That took weeks).
Lataxe
That's a good deal Bob. You won't be sorry that you went. Stuff that could take hours of practice and more hours of study can be communicated in person in a few minutes. You'll get a nice jump start this way and skip some of the nasty cussing sessions I had to weather. I still had lotsa fun and you'll have just as much without so much frustration. Good lathe, good tools, good instruction... I started with none of those. You are a lucky lad!
Mike,
Scrapers are over rated as far as the quality of the surface they leave behind. Their name "Scraper" says it all, they scrape, which implies a less refined cutting action than a plane iron, chisel etc.
Under an oil finish they look and feel pretty good, but put shellac or a water based finish on and they are as rough as a cob. Where scrapers excel, is removing a fairly large shaving without the risk of tear out, but as a final surfacing tool they fall short. I always sand a scraped surface. Some woods respond better to a scraper than others. I sometimes get mahogany that won't scrape at all (it may not be a true mahogany) Maple, cherry, birch, satinwood, holly and ebony scrape pretty well and to a lesser extent, so do walnut, oak and ash.
Having said this, a scraper is a must have tool and I use it often (in fact I just did,several minutes ago).
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
Rob,
I sure agree with your post. I love scrapers but always sand after using their many merits.
I'd like to know what, the guys here on the net, prefer. Do you prefer to
(1) Pull the scraper
(2) push the scraper
(3) use 50/50 push and pull.
My preference is to pull it. I can easily see the shaving and how much I might be curving the blade. I like to use carving chisels this way too.
Don,
I'm not very good at pulling it towards me, so I'm pushing it nearly 100% of the time.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I prefer to push because I find it easier to bow the scraper with my thumbs rather than bowing it with my index fingers. I do use the pull method but perhaps only 10% of the time.
Regards,
Senomozi
I push and pull in a ratio that's probably 75/25 or so. I push a lot to do the initial work, especially getting rid of any tearout. Once the tearout is just about gone, I pull using much less pressure. These light passes help me get the smoothest finish I can on the board. I'll repeat the process of pushing hard and pulling very lightly until I'm satisfied. If you have access, I think there's a video by Brian Boggs on this website showing some terrific scraper technique.After scraping, I usually sand the surface lightly, working from 240 grit on up. I usually do this sanding later, most often after I've assembled whatever it is I'm making. Norman
I push my scrapers too. Pretty sure you need a special Japanese scraper to pull it!
Seriously, I push and pull all of my tools once in a while. I pull my smoothers occassionally use them one handed and joke that such work is impossible without a special dedicated tool.
For me, push or pull depends on where I'm standing, where the planing stop is and which direction the grain is going.
Adam
Adam,
You gave me a good chuckle with your Japanese scraper. LOL
Don,
I was using the scraper today, to refine the profiles on some chair parts, and I was surprised to see how often I pulled the scraper towards me. I have only rarely pulled it when working on flat stock, and never with much sucess.
I really didn't think I pulled the scraper, but today I found I do.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
The type of finish you get with a cabinet scraper is dependent on the quality of the burr that is formed on the edge and on the type of wood you are scraping. With a properly formed burr, the scraper will cut wood as well as a plane. But, some woods--primarily soft woods--do not scrape well. In general, harder woods are easier to scrape.
That said, one of the woodworking magazines tested the quality of the surface after scraping and after sanding. Before the finish was applied, the scraped surface "looked" smoother and had an almost burnished, shiny appearance when compared to the the sanded surface. However, once a couple of coats of clear finish was applied, there was no discernible difference in appearance.
So, the answer is that you can either sand or scrape and it will make no difference once the item is finished.
However, if you are planning to use a pigment stain, you should be consistent in either sanding or scraping. Sanding will leave more "nooks and crannies" for the pigment to lodge in therefore giving a darker appearance than when applied to a scraped surface.
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