I’m currently working on a jewelry box as part of a 10th anniversary gift to my wife. I got to the point where I had the case sides assembled, and I needed the bottom and top edges of the case carcass “jointed” and the bottom panel flattened as well, so that my glue joint would be clean. I took the pieces to a cabinet shop to have them run through a drum sander or wide belt sander. The guy was apprehensive, and told me that pieces have to be at least 24″ long to run them through the belt sander. At that point I told him not to do it, since I had a few hours’ worth of work in the project and I didn’t want it to get kicked back or eaten. He, instead took the pieces back into the shop to see if he and the shop foreman could run them anyway… he had “an idea.”
Long story short, his brilliant idea didn’t work. As a result, a large piece of beautiful spalted maple was split off of a side of the case, and another smaller chunk or two were blown out as well. I was a little too irritated (to put it lightly) to keep my cool at that moment, so I took my things and left. The shop owner wasn’t there at the time anyway, so I figured I would be better off waiting for him anyway.
Should I expect any reimbursement for their incompetence? Is it too little/too much to ask that the shop owner pick up the tab for the spalted maple I’ll need to purchase in order to make another case carcass?
Replies
Yes, it is too much to expect for them to pay for your materials. If they do great, if not, well its a lesson learned.
Why didn't you go back with him and supervise and assist? It was your work, and you need to take some responsibility. Even if you have no background on the equipment used, you have common sense. Apply it.
I'm know this sounds harsh, but mistakes happen every day in cabinet shops, yours just happens to be one...
Thanks all. When it rains, it pours.
The comment on making no bungled edge on the wrap around has me recalling. The first chair I ever made. The seats were leather, and wrapped around a core so as to make them easier to redo if that ever came to pass. For all the things I didnt know at the time, that was the one that was the hardest to have look right, and it didnt. Still doesnt. I've kept most of my early attempts at things. Forcing myself to stare at the defects over time is a good way of remembering not to repeat them. I could write a book on the subject of "If I knew then" . . ."Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
The moment between where you told him not to do it, and where you allowed him to try his procedure on it anyway, is where you lost control of the whole process. There was no contract at that point. Don't expect to be reimbursed, unless the cabinet shop owner is a nice person, and generous as well.
How big were the pieces he tried to plane? If they were much smaller than the 24" he talked about, they could have been planed and jointed with a hand plane in a few minutes. With a shooting board, a little practice and a decent plane, it's really not very hard.
Not that I'm saying all power tools should be abandoned but planers are not made to dimension small pieces. Same with jointers.
The guy who took it to the back to "try something" needs to learn to say no when it's time to say no, instead of trying to please people all the time.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 3/22/2006 12:06 am by highfigh
is there more, perhaps a more confrontational aspect, perhaps a more client imperative to stick this jewellry box into a thickness sander in this story than you are sharing with us.
I've thought this through a dozen ways, and it just don't ring a true to my thought processes either from my experience as a shop owner, as the fella who pays for sanding belts, or the fella who's future business relies on satisfied clients.
BTW....D never told us just what he had to pay for this destructive lesson to his "beautiful spalted maple" .
Perhaps he could illuminate us on that subject a tad more before he solicts advice on whether this shop should re-imburse him for costs.
After all they were simply trying to please a client, who seemingly knew exactly what he wanted.
Eric
a disciple of Pye, who wrote a whole book on craftmanship, and elaborated on the concept of workmanship of risk. Case in point no doubt.
.
In the interest of keeping my initial post short, so that folks wouldn't have to trudge through a long story, I left out much of it. If you want to know the who, what, when, where and how - grab a cup of coffee and snuggle up to your screen. Here goes...
I am an active duty Air Force member. As such, I usually have access to well-equipped wood shops wherever I am stationed. I've been fortunate enough in the past to have access to wide belt sanders which I could use on my own when necessary. I'm currently stationed in Monterey, CA, where there is no longer a wood shop run by MWR here. Fortunately, I've accumulated a pretty decent shop full of my own tools over the years, so I may continue my craft. Of course, I don't have a wide belt sander, or even a drum sander yet... believe me, it's on my list!
As I said, I'm building a jewelry box. The case sides are already assembled with box joints at the corners. The corners are a few thousandths off from lining up perfectly at the corners, and as such if I assembled it as-is, I would have a glue line to deal with and it would highlight my less-than-perfect workmanship. Also, the lid and bottom panel are constructed with frame and panel construction, but the miters lined up a few thousands high and low with respect to one another as well. In my haste to get this project done on time, I tried to even out the miters with a random orbit sander. Of course, now the corners are no longer exactly square. In retrospect, it is obvious now that I didn't come up with the best solution to the problem. I started calling around to cabinet shops to see who might rent time on their drum sander or wide belt sander. I found one shop (and only one) in the area.
I took all of the pieces I wanted sanded to the cabinet shop. When I arrived, the employee who was called looked a bit dismayed, and told me "there is a minimum length for pieces we can feed through the sander." I asked him what that length is, and he told me 24". At that point I told him "all three pieces are 20x12, so I guess I'll have to figure something else out." I told him if it's too short for the machine, I didn't want it fed through. I told him it would probably kick back and get torn up and/or hurt someone. He wanted to take them back and show the shop foreman to see if they couldn't figure out a way to accomplish what I needed. He had "an idea" I asked if I could come back as well, but the answer was "sorry, but no." This being the land of the frivolous lawsuit, I didn't expect to hear otherwise. This conversation took place in a matter of maybe a full minute. There was no arguing or coercion. At that point, I was left with the hope that I would be in good hands, since the foreman was getting involved. I don't know what happened in the back of the shop, and I never will. Judging from the piece that was sent through, they started off with a pretty aggressive pass (think 1/64") and passed it through parallel to the long sides (perpendicular to the grain of the board that was damaged). It appears that the side that split out was probably on the trailing edge.
5 minutes after my pieces went to the back of the shop, the employee returned up front trying to put the pieces back together. He told me "sorry, my idea didn't work. We didn't pass the other pieces through, because they are too short." At that point, I gathered up the pieces, asked if I was correct in assuming there would be no charge, and left before I blew my top. I didn't discuss any sort of recourse, I simply went home. I already knew the shop owner was gone for the day, so discussion would be moot.
Thanks for the replies, I'll call this one a lesson learned. Never again will I expect "professionals" to be any more capable than I am, nor to know their own equipment any better than I do. Furthermore, I've learned that I should expect no sort of accountability when I am wronged. Shame on me!
Your reply does clarify things... I think the shop owes you an apology, and probably some additional consideration. It sounds as if you expected the employee to consult the foreman, and not do anything to your piece without returning and telling you first.
I am not so sure about the wisdom of going to a power shop in the first place, however. It seems very aggressive for the piece that you were building. I'm not a Luddite, and I have many power tools that I use regularly... in general, I don't think you should refine your joints by sanding, I think this is a shortcut that is best not taken.
For the issues that you define in your post, I think a block plane to refine the miters would be more helpful. I use one often when I am putting up crown molding- on both cabinets, and especially on walls where many of the corners are not perfectly square or plumb. Another thing that I have is a "lions jaw" miter trimmer. I got it on a close out for ~$30, and they are more expensive at Woodcraft, but they cut (trim actually) perfect miters- I've made many picture frames with mine. If you don't have one or want to buy one, you might be able to use one for a fee at a "make your own frame shop".
As for the box joints, a #4 or #4 1/2 finishing plane would likely have leveled the top and bottom of the carcass without risk. You can plane "around the corner" with a tight throat and the finish would be very good. It is amazing (at least to me) how fine the tolerances achieved are just by eye. With a try square you'd be spot on. It's also more fun.
Just my 2p,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
D,
Sorry to hear things didn't work out well. My guess is that if it is a cabinet shop whoes employees are used to working with sheet goods, doors and face frames whcih are all solid stock your fragile spalted maple was not truly appreciated and it was obviously the wrong tool for the task. There may have been some serious stresses or decay in the wood from the spalting that may have caused this same result even if it had been 24" long. The wood may not have been strong enought to handle a power tool such as a WB. Good luck salvaging what you have put into it already.
Aaorn.
Just out of curiosity , why didn't you use a belt sander to even things out ,and then the ros to finish it off ?
good luck dusty
Sorry it happened, D. - I too used MWR shops all over the world in my Navy career - probably not as nice as your Air Force ones, but the same idea, at least.
I'd start looking for your own wide belt sander - figure that karma owes you a good deal. Maybe the nearest DRMO will auction off a bunch of woodworking equipment and you'll get one for pennies on the dollar.
I agree with the above comments.
1. Something is missing from the original narrative.
2. There was a hand off- implicit perhaps- when the original doubts did not prevent the hand off of the work to the shop.
3. Given the type of work, the use of handplanes/scrapers, would seem to be better suited than power tools.
Live and learn,Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
HI
Did you save the peces that split off? If so you can use clicomate glue[Not spelled right]. wood carvers use it a lot to fix goof ups. so co woodturners. It is also known as super glue. dries real fast.
Have a nice day Lee
ps I would not go back to that shop. they should have known better to do whatever they did. sounds like inexperinced help to me
The next time you have short stock to sand in a wide belt or drum sander, try making a saddle to hold the stock to prevent any kick back from the belt and infeed roller separation. I have done the same thing and the saddle works great
I too thought about the saddle, or back up board, and I was thinking that combined with a bit of double sided tape that would be the ticket.
Thanks again for the input. I've decided to do what I can to salvage what I have. I didn't call the shop today. The wood I used I bought as a "short" at something like $7/bf, so I'm not out a whole lot of money if I can't live with the results of my salvage operation and decide to start over.
This is the first time I've worked with spalted maple, and to be honest, if I start over again, I might go with birdseye instead. I didn't expect the spalted maple to suck up so much finish and darken down so much. I've been experimenting with different finishes on the cut-offs, and I'm not pleased with the results thus far.
As for the frame mitres, I did trim them on a shooting board, they line up nicely as far as making 90-degree corners, but I didn't spline them before -or pay enough attention during- the glue-up, so they wound up out of alignment top-to-bottom. Thus the sanding issue there.
I still have a bunch of learning to do. I'm still living in the "it's the journey, not the destination" world, so I'll chalk all of this up to experience and move on. Right now, my journey is taking me more and more toward hand-tool work. This summer I'll be moving to Germany, and thus unable to take most of my personal power tools with me, since most of them won't work well over there (even if I use a transformer for the 110V tools, they will still be running at 50Hz, and I'm told that can burn up motors). The plan is to build a workbench at the MWR woodshop on Ramstein AFB, set it up in my home, and spend a couple of years honing my hand tool skills.
Spalted can break "on the spalt lines" fairly easily. Maybe your stock was a bit punky or over spalted. I've got a pile that was cut/milled before the wood got punky. Love the stuff...even have some curly splalted...beautiful...good luck with your rebuild. Jimmy
I wouldn't worry at all about using your small hand held power tools over here in Europe with a 110V step down transformer. I moved back to my native UK more than a couple of years ago after living in the US for ten years. I had a complete workshop of US configured routers, drills and the like. They all work just fine with a transformer.
I've heard it said that they're supposed to run slower, but I don't notice any difference. Also that the motors will burn out quicker-- it's been nearly three years now and so far there's no sign of trouble with my gear. I made up a couple of short rat-tail converters out of UK style plugs that go into the transformer with US style three pin sockets at the other end of the rat-tail.
This way I'm able to use all the original two and three pin plugs on the end of the US power tool cords. I could easily enough cut off all the US style plugs and stick on a UK style plug that would connect directly to the transformer-- but that's a lot of plugs and my rat-tail converter solution seems to work just fine.
It's not unusual nowadays in the building trade (so I'm told) for us to buy US tools and run them through transformers. US configured power tools (e.g., DeWalt routers) are essentially the same as European configured power tools, but their cost is usually about the same number in US$ as we pay in pounds, and at an exchange rate of about $1.75/£1 importing them can sometimes be an attractive option..
If someone from here is visiting the US all they have to do is leave a big enough hole in their suitcase for the latest tool purchase and in it comes through customs. Of course, their should really be VAT to pay at this end if the tool was bought tax free in the US, but customs do seem to miss this opportunity to collect tax quite often from what I've heard, and if US taxes have been paid and can be proven to have been paid by production of a receipt, I don't think UK Customs would apply a double whammy of tax anyway. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 3/23/2006 1:47 am by SgianDubh
That is comforting to read. I'm leaving my larger powertools in the US, nonetheless, with a friend in my hometown. That way, I don't have to find a house in Germany with a large workspace, or take the chance of cooking the motors on my more expensive tools. The only small power tool I have that is rated at 50Hz or 60Hz on the service label is my DeWalt biscuit jointer. Maybe I'll take along my routers, sanders, etc.
I contacted every manufacturer about my larger tools, and the only one that told me I wouldn't have a problem was Grizzly (re: my G0500 Jointer). The rest all told me not to plug their tools in over there, or tried to sell me different motors.
I think I've managed to make a passable repair with what I have. Below is a photo of the side that was damaged. I can see where I had to fill in some missing bits with epoxy and sawdust, but maybe my wife won't be able to see it. If so, I'm sure she'll forgive. I still have a ways to go on the finish, and I have to make the tray for the inside, but I'm trudging on with what I have.
Wow! That is nice. I'd forgive you. I'm glad to were able to save such a beautiful box.
Marion
Nice repair...chill....Jimmy
Hi D,
Sorry to here about your mishap. I couldn'y help but note the following from one of your replies.
"This is the first time I've worked with spalted maple, and to be honest, if I start over again, I might go with birdseye instead. I didn't expect the spalted maple to suck up so much finish and darken down so much. I've been experimenting with different finishes on the cut-offs, and I'm not pleased with the results thus far."
If I may, I will try and give you some insight when working with splated material. I have used spalted maple and beech on guitar tops and this is what I usually do.
1) stabilize the punky/soft areas with CA glue. Use the very runny stuff LOL:)). It talkes alot of this. Wear a respirator.
2) work the areas as usual until getting to more punky areas, repeat #1 then repeat #2
It sometimes takes alot of CA so I would suggests you buy from a Hobby shop or craft store. An average solid body guitar top will take upwards of 12 to 16 oz of CA before it's ready to finish. If you are planning to stain the wood, the CA will not allow stain to penetrate so you will need to use toners in your final finish. I always go for a natural finish on spalted so it's not an issue for me.
Practice this on scraps first, I think you will find that it an easier process but more tedious, also a little more expensive since CA is not inexpensive.
I hope I've shed some light on how spalted woods can be worked. I'm sure there are other methods but this one works for.
Mike K"El planeamiento pobre en su parte no constituye una emergencia en mi parte"
Have you tried thinned down polyester resin or epoxy for stabilizing spalted woods?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yes, But with mixed results. most epoxies don't dry clear usually have some amber to them. Devcon2 epoxy seems to work best. Using the long setup type. Have been looking at a product but havne' tried it yet, PolyCrl??? Have your ever used it?
http://www.preservation-solutions.com/faq-polycryl.php
Have talked with a few that say it works fine just must do it in stages as well as viscosity levels.
I guess I'll have to order some and try it.
MK
"El planeamiento pobre en su parte no constituye una emergencia en mi parte"
I haven't worked with any spalted wood yet. Have you tried the West Systems epoxy? It's made for a variety of uses, including marine and is sold at WoodCraft and Rockler, but it's pretty pricey. I would think someone would have it for less online. IIRC, it sets clear and is very strong.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
snip...... "Have you tried the West Systems epoxy? ".......snip
No I haven't tried that. I'll look at it an see though. Thanks
MK"El planeamiento pobre en su parte no constituye una emergencia en mi parte"
hi. Im not going to add my two cents to something I have no idea about, but I do have a question. When using epoxies and resins, are there any things to consider when it comes time for finsishing?
I haven't tried water based finishes but stains and dyes that need to go into the wood fibers won't work, for obvious reasons. Lacquer should be no problem since it will attach to a non-porous surface but does work better with a slightly rough surface, like when it's used to paint cars.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
My experieince with using West system on mahogany and teak is that if you fill or "float" a surface to make it fair or fill a hole, and then finish with varnish, the expoxy is virtually invisible. It colors the wood just like the varnish, and the epoxy will take a varnish nicely. If you put in a dutchman the seams may show darker, but if you r fit is tight, that's not usually a problem. i have finished teak floors with big dings by floating them out with West, sanding flat and varnishing. Beautiful.
I concur with the posters who say you are SOL. I know that it must feel horrible to see your hours of labor ruined, although I know from experience that it is worse to ruin it your self! I know also that this will sound crazy, but I think that you should thank them for trying. I rent time on larger shops machines and every time I am amazed that they allow me to do so. It is a huge liability for them. I know that my insurance would freak out if I had a nonemployee accident in my shop. And they have the risk of "skilled hobbiest" not likeing the quality of their work. Most cabinetry shops are not set up to do the accurate work that a advanced hobbiest needs. I hav seen in shops where tools as basic a the jointer and planer where not set up correctly. They generally dont waste a half a day to change jointer knifes like we will.
Mike
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