I am currently moving into a new building. The ceiling height is 9 foot. I have 2bulb 8ft flourescent fixtures now. My question is should I use the same or do they have anything else out there I can use. I want a lot of light. What do you recommend. the area is 30×50
Thanks, Lou
Replies
I just installed four two bulb four foot fixtures in a 16x20 shop and have more than enough light. Eight foot bulbs can get pricy and your selection is limited in most retail stores. Also realize the ballast for those 8" foot fixtures can also be expensive when they need to be replaced.
Lou,
I recently built a new shop and consulted with a friend who is a licensed electrician. A 30 X 50 shop is really large and to get a true day light effect your going to need a lot more light than you might think. My shop is only 600 sq. foot and he recommended using 18 four foot twin florescent fixtures, which worked out to be just right to get that true daylight effect with no shadows. My ceiling is vaulted with ten foot high walls. I suspended the fixtures from the ceiling down to the ten foot level. It was also recommended that I use the newer T-8 bulbs and fixtures. They are smaller in diameter than the T-12 tubes that you normally see but they actually give off as much if not more light and use less electricity. Everyone is going to them because of this. I was at the hospital the other day and noticed that they were replacing all their lighting with these newer T-8 fixtures. I read an article not to long ago in one of the woodworking magazines about proper shop lighting and every thing I read was right in line with what my electrician recommended. Articles in FWW issue No. 154 and Shop Notes Vol. 14 Issue 83 should help you a lot. With a shop that large you may just want to go with the 8 footers. They would probably be easier to hang them than twice as many four footers. Hope this helps! Danny
Edited 3/5/2007 1:19 am ET by brownman
Edited 3/5/2007 1:21 am ET by brownman
Edited 3/5/2007 2:21 am ET by brownman
Lou: In an area that large you might want to set up fixtures not in a linear pattern. Assuming that you will have fixed positions for the larger machines put plenty of light over them and also over the work benches. Lesser light intensity at storage areas and then fill in where needed for walkways and any potential trip areas and exits. How much natural light is there and how much work after dark? All these will need to be figured into a comprehensive fixture layout. Duke
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Lou,
My shop is 30 X 40. I have a mixture of 4' and 8' flourescent fixtures. I will let the other posters tell you what is better and how many to get, but in my experience, I have found that the 8' fixtures last much, much longer than the 4'. I'm talking about the bulbs, and ballasts. I have 8' fixtures going on 6 years old and have not changed bulbs or ballasts. I have several 4' fixtures that are out, and I bought new bulbs but they are still out, so I am figuring the ballast is shot. Those will be replaced with 8 footers soon.
All I can say is if you go with a 4' fixture, do not buy the cheaper "shop light" type with the plug already molded on. These burn out the fastest. As far as 8' bulbs being hard to find, any Lowe's or HD carries them in several configurations.
Good luck with the new building,
Lee
Lou
Have you looked into industrial halide fixtures? JL
8 footers with cold start ballasts seem to work fine (from my experience of just building a 24x30 shop). You'll probably want task lighting once equipment position shakes out so try and plan for circuit access as best you can. Also watch loading of individual circuit branches (lights on their own) as the draw from 8 footers adds up quickly.
Motopitdad
I am not sure this response was for me, but it was interesting. It will be seen anyway. :-) JL
Lou'
I concur with mapleman on the type of fixture that you should use. Get the industrial quality fixtures and not the shop light type. The ballast and bulbs in the less expensive "shop light" fixtures won't last nearly as long as the industrial grade ones. Cheaper in the long run to buy the best quality fixtures. My shop has no windows. Because of it's smaller size I needed all the wall space I could get. I built the biggest shop that the city would permit in my area. So instead I put in six large sky lights, so I rarely use my lights in the day time as I live her in So. Cal where it's rarely cloudy.
Danny
Edited 3/5/2007 2:50 pm ET by brownman
Here's my recent experience.
I recently lighted my shop with the 2-bulb, 4 ft variety, cheaper units with magnetic ballast and t-12 bulbs. Since it's a basement shop with unfinished ceiling, it apparently eats light. I wound up putting 15 fixtures in a space 20 ft by 30 ft before I got enough light.
I then lighted my wife's sewing (quilting) workshop on the other side of the basement. In her 15 by 20 ft room (with a finished ceiling) I used 3, 4-bulb, 4 ft fixtures with electronic ballast and t-8 bulbs, and it is more than adequately lighted.
If I had it to do over again, I'd do my shop with the electronic ballasted, t-8, 4-bulb, 4 foot fixtures.
Mike D
One other issue that affects how much light you will need is are the walls and ceiling finished? I strongly recommend that if they are not that you take the time to hang drywall, tape and finish them, and paint them white. This turns your walls and ceiling into giant reflectors so as to get the most out of your lighting. This is a lot of work but the benefits are worth the effort.
I second this. But better do it before you start putting tools into your shop! I had planned to paint the walls and ceiling white, but before I knew it, tools everywhere, and no inclination to get paint all over everything.
Mike D :)
BigK,I would love to hang drywall but I want to be able to run wire and etc in the future.
Thanks Lou
I have a couple of suggestions:1) Set up all your lights on separate circuits. 2) I use 2 bulb 4' fixtures -- mainly because around here we have to take old bulbs to a hazardous waste site, and I find it easier to deal with an accumulation of 4' bulbs, as opposed to the 8'3) the noise factor can be irksome with standard ballasts; you could play music to drown the buzz, but a better solution is to order fixtures with an electronic ballast. 4) How much light you need is largely a matter of personal taste and how good your eyes are. I would counsel you to plan your layout so you could add additional fixtures in the future. I have added lights over the years, and by now, you could probably do surgery in my shop. 5) I built a home office for a graphics designer years ago; she needed undercabinet lights (for the desktop). We did some research with a lighting designer, and found that bulbs rated 3500K give the best color rendition. And that's what I use in my shop. I buy them by the case from an electrical supply house.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Are you sure that isn't 5500K? This is the color temperature of daylight.
Nope, 3500K.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Yep, that's right -- 3500K will render colors better. I was going to purchase 5k bulbs but was persuaded not to by the salesman at the electrical supply -- based not on his subjective (of course, color rendition is always subjective) opinion but on data described in their tech bulletins.
pzaxtl,
Interesting. I have always been under the impression that the closer you got to daylight, 5500 to 6500 degrees Kelvin, the more natural the light is. Maybe our brains have become conditioned to accept a much warmer light ( redder ), when we're inside, as natural. It would all depend on what we use as a reference in regards to what renders colors better. I do agree that a warmer color is much more pleasing to work under. Right now I'm using tubes that are 4200 degrees Kelvin. They seem to be working o k . Do you remember any of the details in that tech bulletin? Just curious
Paul :)
This lighting stuff is dizzying in its complexity.Try googling "lighting kelvin" for more information than you will ever care to know. <G>When I did that office years ago, I thought so-called "full spectrum" bulbs would be the bee's knees; but it was ghastly.That's when I knew I was in over my head and called a lighting designer, who in turn told me about the 3500K bulbs.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks nikkiwood, I'll check it out
Paul
It is true that daylight has a color temperature of 5000-6500, depending on what type of daylight you are talking about. I think that the issue is that since we spend lots of time indoors, we are accustomed to the light from incandescent bulbs. These have a color temperature of 2800. I've been trying to figure out which T8 bulbs to hang in my new fluorescent fixtures that I just put up, and it seems that the labeling jargon at the local big box stores is that "Daylight" bulbs are 6500, "Sunshine" bulbs are 5000, and "Soft White" bulbs are 3000.This has some effect on color rendition, but is not the only factor. Complicating this issue is that incandescent bulbs are pretty close to black body radiators, emitting light at many different frequencies. The frequency curve for an incandescent bulb is like a smooth hump, covering many wavelengths of light. This is one of the main reasons why an incandescent bulb will have a CRI of 100. Fluorescent bulbs, on the other hand, have a very spiky frequency curve, which will affect color rendition. This is why things look different under fluorescent bulbs, even if you match the color temperature.
Hi wilburpan,
My previous shop was entirely lit by incandescent bulbs ( it was much smaller ). I really enjoyed working there, mostly because of the lighting , I'm sure. Too bad a more efficient incandescent bulb hasn't been developed . I would use them in a heart beat. Thanks for the info.
Paul
Hi Paul,As it turns out, I'm installing fluorescent lights, and I'm going to give some of the "Soft white" fluorescents a try this weekend, once I get my fixtures wired up. I'll be sure to post how they work.Of course, if you could help me with my electrical circuit grounding question that I'm going to post soon, that will help me get the bulbs up that much faster. :@)Wilbur
Paul,I got my light fixtures wired up over the weekend, and tried the Phillips "Soft White" T8 bulbs. These have a color temperature of 3000K, and a CRI of 85. Comparing them to the one incandescent bulb that is still in the shop, they still have a slightly more bluish tinge to them, but nowhere near as blue as a standard fluorescent bulb. I think that the light quality so far is not as fatiguing as regular fluorescents, and if I didn't have the incandescent bulb for a direct comparison, I'd be hard pressed to say that they were much different from a halogen bulb.Overall, I'm very pleased, and plan to use them in the rest of the fluorescent fixtures that I'll be putting up.Wilbur
Hey wilburnpan,
Sounds great. I just may have to change all my tubes to the lower temperature. Unfortunately, I have 32 of them.
Paul
Hi Paul,See, that's what you get for having a (presumably) big workshop. You should have a dinky 200 sq. ft. one like mine. That way you won't have such problems. :@)Seriously, one thing to consider is to replace the bulbs only in the areas where you do the most work, and where you do detail work. The bulbs closest to your workbench and wherever you do finishing would be ideal places to start. If you do scroll-type sawing on your bandsaw, or if you have a scrollsaw, that would be a candidate area. Another area to consider would be at your lathe, if you have one.Wilbur
Boy, that's the truth. I use my 40x50 shop for my custom cabinet business but dream of the day when I can have one that's more intimate . Wood floor........ paneled walls.......Hmmmm. Something to look forward to at retirement ( whenever that will be :) ).
My florescent lighting is just general illumination. I do use incandescent for task lighting. Probably my biggest problem right now is the annoying buzzzz. Tried to save a dollar. Didn't work. With that many fixtures( 16 ) the noise can be deafening. But if I have background music on it's not too bad.
Paul
Closing in the frame with drywall will not preclude future wiring. Go ahead and rough in your electrical inside the frame now. If this is a commercial space you are limited, by code, in that the wiring must be either MC or in conduit and metal boxes. I suggest that for the future you set at least one box in the ceiling fed by 3/4" conduit, put an extension ring on that box that sits proud of the drywall. You should also feed one box in each wall with 3/4" conduit. Later, when you need another circuit to feed a new machine for example, it is pretty easy to surface run conduit to a new box and fish thru the wiring for that circuit.
In my original shop, a 20 x 37' space, I was the electricians helper so as to learn the basic rules about commercial wiring and conduit. We set one box with 3/4 in each wall with an extension ring for the rough-in. At the finish we surface ran conduit for duplex plugs every 6'. On the ceiling we ran conduit and set boxes with drops with plugs for each machine. Over work stations and benches in the center we set drops with 4-square boxes and duplex receptacles.
For general knowledge, the old magnetic ballasts for flourescent fixtures are being phased out. It seems that high output ballasts are the way to go. If your electrician is a buddy he can probably get you a good price on them. Best of luck with it.
The advantages to finishing drywall and painting are numerous. The shop will be much brighter from reflected light. It is much easier to clean up and dust drywall then a rough framed space. Finished drywall will help control heating/cooling costs, It will also help with sound attenuation outside the shop if that is a consideration. I know that drywall is an added expense, but the many benefits more than justify it in my opinion. At present I am in the process of building an 1127 sf addition to my original shop and plan on hanging and finishing drywall again, including the 11 1/2 - 13 1/2' ceiling. I have worked in several unfinished shops. It doesn't seem to matter how many lights you put in them, they still seem dark to me and to my slowly aging eyes. I hope that this helps Lou.
Edited 3/7/2007 8:49 am by BigK
Big K, I am taking your advice and drywalling the ceiling. My problem is that I settle in april on my current shop and using some of the profits to put towards setting up my new shop. So I will have to move quickly on the new shop but still do it right. I think I'll be down for 4-5weeks. I'm working hard to finish my last 2 kitchens before I break the current shop down. I have alot to do and did I say my wife and I just had twin boys on top of all this. I plan on putting a floating plywood floor down too. My feet will love me after a 14 hour day.
Thanks again and I will take your advice
Lou
I wish that the floating floor was a possibility for me; my feet are sure tired at the end of my day. Sounds like you have your hands full. Best of luck.
Lou,
I have a 26 x 46 garage an my shop is set up in the back half. I am using Lithonia 4' 6 bulb t5 ho high bay fluorescent fixtures. I only needed three for general lighting and it is like day light. They have a 5 year warranty and only draw 2 amps each. I still have some smaller 2 bulb fixtures over my assembly tables on the outside walls. These units have a big price tag but are worth it.
My best advice to you is to get something with reflectors and to take a copy of your layout to an electrical supply store, not Home Depot or Lowes. You may also try sending your layout to a manufacturer, they could give you several suggestions. I would also tell them you are looking for 70-80 foot candles per square foot. That would give you the same amount of light that is suggested for bathroom vanities.
Good luck,
Brian
I am in the process of building a 23 x 49 addition to my original shop with 12 1/2' ceilings. The original was drywalled, finished, and painted white with a durable eggshell sheen. I will do the same in the new space. We had installed 15 8' 2 tube fixtures hanging at 13'in there. H O flourescents were recommended but the price had scared me off. In the addition we will install 12 H O flourescents. This was based on the recommendations from the electrical supply house (NOT Homer's); they said that we didn't need reflectors as the finished walls and ceiling would be one giant reflector. I should be getting the rough frame inspection next week.
It is my opinion that Homer's is the next WalMart. I am not to pleased with having to deal with Homer's, but they are the only game in the area around here. They make me miss the old Hugh M Woods.
I haven't seen this mentioned yet, so I will. I found a significent difference in quality of light between types of bulbs. The "coolwhite" are usually the cheapest, but the "full spectrum" are the best light. It is a signigicent difference, and well worth checking out.
Pedro
I am just getting my natural gas plumbed in next monday and will then sheetrock. I too worry about wanting to run wire later. I would suggest that you rock the ceiling except the outer 2 feet of the shop and the top one foot of the walls if this is a huge concern. Or learn about Smurf tube. It is easy to run and will allow for more wireing to be done later (it is flexable conduit). Or in my case... My new detatched shop sports 4 220 breakers and enough others to run a medium sized business. Nearly what my house does in its own sub panel. I wired it all myself and have used every spot in my panel for power. If you run it yourself (and it is a peice of cake,) it is fun and rewarding...Sincerely,Drew
Drew, My house has a 150 amp panel. I am thinking about having the electrical company place a seperate meter on my detached garage for a 300 amp panel. This way when I connect the house to the shop with a garage I can run everything to the new 300amp panel in my shop. and do away with the 150 amp panel. What do you think
Thanx, Lou
I actually did the same thing... to an extent. I only want one bill so I ran a new service to the house with more 220 breakers outside like the one you probably have for your AC. Then I put a 200 amp breaker in that panel and ran out to the garage. It was cheaper than 2 services. Something that really suprised me. In Utah since 2000 all the homes have their service cables in conduit. The electrician called the power company and in half an hour I had a bigger new service to the house. (wild) You may want to double check as the one thing that a seperate service would be worth it for is 3 phase if it is available. If you can get it it would be worth some extra cost. To get a phase converter you pay about $100 per hp. Pricey! I would love some three phase machines but wont go that way due to the phase converter issue. The other thing I have done is there is actually a way to get high output from a single fixture if you want really bright bulbs by double wiring ballasts to the lamps... Nice for by grow tables but it shortens the lamp life by a bit. One other thing... If you can get 3 Phase... Maybe get a new service to the shop (a big one) and run the house as a sub panel?Drew
Edited 3/12/2007 12:20 pm ET by Drew1house
Lou,
My home only had a 100 amp service panel so to get adequate power to my home and shop I had to put in a new 200 amp service panel at the house. I also had to install and connect the proper size underground electrical conduit from the house to the street, which required me to dig a 48" deep trench from the house to the underground electrical street connection near the front sidewalk. Probably much easier if your power is overhead, as this took a week to do. My soil is all DG which required jack hammering. The electric Co. then came out and laid a new and larger size line(I think a No.1 or 2) to accommodate my power needs, at no charge. From this panel I ran a line through my attic down the outside wall through steel conduit and across to the shop panel. I installed a large panel in my shop to accommodate all my 220 breakers. I also did what another suggested, that being wiring my lights on two separate circuits or switches as often times I only need half the light I've installed, due to my sky lights.
Edited 3/12/2007 2:40 pm ET by brownman
Hi Lou,
My new shop is 40x50. It has an open truss ceiling with sheetrocked walls. I'm using 16, 2 tube , 8' florescent fixtures. For me, this provides adequate general lighting, but some task lighting is needed also. I just used general purpose fixtures because of budget constraints. If you go with florescent lighting and can afford it, get ones that don't BUZZZZZZ. There's nothing like doing hand work and listening to that racket. But, it does give you the most light for your buck.
Plus.... the amount of light one requires is directly proportional to ones age:)
Paul
p s The fixtures are about 11' off the floor
Good to see light and lighting for a workshop being discussed in such a thorough fashion. Its often overlooked apart from when its grumbled about for being an expense or not working properly or inadequate.
Light is a primary functional necessity in a workshop....It is a tool. and the more you have of it and the better it is the better the rest of the tools can be used.
My shop has white painted ceilings and is lit by fluorescent tubes, in two banks of four tubes in a canopy, and in singles and in straight rows.
The banks of four tubes were from a suspended ceiling that was being ripped out of a store in a refurbishment, used but good quality. The rest are various length singles, all obtained used.
Most of these have been up and working every day in my workshop for at least 18 years, requiring no more than an occasional starter and tube.
These are aided by another useful lighting item from that store refurb, that costs nothing to run and has no live or moving parts ! Its a mirror. One of those convex circular mirrors they hang from the ceiling in stores and supermarkets to get a fish eye view of who is in which aisle In my workshop this sits high in a corner and is angled to throw light down.But there is one thing about this type of lighting that has not been mentioned yet here( or at least I cannot recall it being mentioned !)
and that is the nature of fluorescent light "flicker frequency"
That it has a capability to act as a stroboscope.
This was first brought to my attention when I was told how my uncle, a very practical and seriously good motor engineer had come to badly injure himself by trying to reach through a radiator cooling fan to tighten a hose.......This was in a bus workshop with about 30 vehicles being worked on, so noise wouldn`t be a help in such a situation either.
But.. The important point. The fan was not stopped. it was strobed, by the single fluorescent tube he was working under. The "pulse" of light came along just at the same time as the fan was in a particular position. So it appeared to be still...
That makes it hard to forget for me, but the cure is simple....
Example: Above my tablesaw ( Scheppach 2500 ) I have a bank of four tubes and alongside at right angles is a six foot tube.....
The way to cancel out the strobing effect is by alternating the alignment of the tubes by 90 degrees.
Newer lamps have higher frequency, which may mean one of two things.......
1) The strobing effect is history.
or
2)You get to test the might of your machinery and cutters on a one to one basis at a different RPMAll that being said, it could have been a phenomenon conjured up by my uncle to save face, or an old wives tale. ( Although what an "Old Wife" would know about fluorescent lighting 30 years ago is a baffling concept )
Has anyone else heard of this or have I been hanging lamps needlessly untidily with a false sense of safety for decades?By the way, I am new. Lurked a while, now here. Stree, UK, Joiner with small shop Hello* ( I should have said this first,ah well !)
Stree,
Let me be the first to welcome you here to Knots! Since you have been lurking for a while, you know how some people can act to the newcomers. Glad to see it hasn't scared you off.
As for the strobe phenomenon, I have heard of it as well. I can't remember all the details, or even how long ago, but it crosses my mind with a flourescent fixture directly over my tablesaw. Haven't had any issues to date, but I am doubly sure to make sure the blade is not spinning before I touch it. And if the radio is on or it's noisy, I wait until I can hear the saw before I touch the blade.
Cheers,
Lee
Thanks Lee, glad to be here and appreciate your courtesy !
I hope to learn from here and at the same time pass along what may may useful that I know as well.......
Hopefully getting a new workshop soon so will be eager to see how others have organised theirs !
For those who might purchase used lights, make sure they don't have pcbs in ballasts.
Dave
Lou,
I agree with Mapleman. I changed out 4 bulb 4' fixtures about five years ago because I was tired of changing bulbs and I hated the buzz. They hang against trusses 9' off the floor and my electrician friend suggested I use 8' two tube High Output fixtures. I have not changed a bulb or a ballast yet and I am down there almost everyday. Built my shop under my garage with bar trusses and under my addition and it is about 30' x48' and I just hung them in straight rows by dividing the room in thirds. I have some a couple dedicated fixtures over my lathe and workbench. I would get the HO small bulb fixtures and you can get them at Home Depot or Lowes. Same brand my buddy got from the supply house and I think they might be cheaper. Check all these online lighting stores for prices.
Terry
Many good point already - I would just add to be sure to provide light from more than one angle for all of your work areas to avoid shadows.
T-8 and T-5 fixtures with electronic ballasts consume less energy for the same output than a standard T-12
also It is helpfull to use one cool spectrum and one warm spectrum bulb in each fixture to get closer to natural light....
I want a lot of light.
In that case, the best thing to do is run multiple strings of flourescent lights along the 50' dimension. For each run, use six 8' fixtures attached end-to-end; they are made to do that.
The reason is basic physics. With a linear light source, the intensity drops off proportional to the distance away from the source; unlike point sources, where it drops off with the square of the distance.
With 9' ceilings and 30' width, use 3 lines of lights - one running down the middle, and the other two 10' away on either side. That'll give a very even distribution of light throughout the whole area.
Whether the 8' fixtures are 1-bulb or 2-bulb depends on how much light you want. If you are over 40, 2-bulb fixtures might not be a bad idea; if you are younger you might be able to get away with 1-bulb fixtures.
I have a 24' x 48' shop. My walls are 12' high, so I can space the runs 12' apart and still get even light, so I only need 2 runs. But I use 2-bulb HO (high output) fixtures.
BarryO, Do the ho's cost more to run? I want the place to light up like a christmas tree. But I also dont want my electric bill to be a small fortune. I sound like one of my clients now. I have area within the shop that is 20X30 That I will use for just making doors. How many 8' 2-bulb t8 fixtures will I need?
Thanks for the help its much appreciated,
Lou
The HO's do cost more to run. The use 110W per tube. But they put out more light; there's no such thing as a free lunch; a.k.a. Conversation of Enery is a fundamental law of physics, and fluorescent tubes are already close to as efficient as they get. You want more light, then you're gonna have to pay.
One thing you can do is put the lights on two switches, and only turn them on in the part of the shop you are working in. In a space that big, you can't be using the whole thing at once.
For just the 20x30 space, you could try 2 rows, 10' apart, of 3 fixtures each.
I got my HO fixtures at HD and the price wasn't bad. They start at low temperatures, too (a big reason why I went with them).
Edited 3/11/2007 7:49 am by BarryO
One thing that has not been mentioned that has been a real money and time saver is to place a seperate switch to turn on a minimal amount of light when you just need to go in and out to get or check something. ( Same goes for a kitchen.) Turning on thousands of watts for a 30sec foray into the shop is a phenomal waste and hard on bulbs and ballasts.
Also if you buy cheap fixtures make sure they are quiet. My shop has a annoying hum that if I weren't a hobbiest I would replce regardless of the cost. LOL
I remember several years ago there was and article about shop lighting in FW by a retired GE lighting engineer. If you can find the article, it is well worth it. One of his points was to paint the ceilings and walls of the shop with satin white paint. You'd be surprised how much more light is reflected with the white walls. BTW, don't use gloss.
I've been very pleased with the improvement in my home shop.
We Have a shop 32x32x10ft we put white tin no have 5 8ft lights get along very well
Check out:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=2771 here on the Fine Woodworking site.
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