OK Guys! I am about to start yet another discussion about which cabinet table saw to buy. I know it often comes down to emotion and personal biases, but what I’m looking for is some honest feedback about what others have experienced with the various makes.
I am seriously considering the PM 66, the Delta Unisaw, and the Grizzly 1023. I am likely looking for the 50″ “Beismeier” type fence. Probably a 3hp saw will do, although I have considered the 5hp 12″ Grizzly 5959 for it’s price. I am looking to spend around $2000.
My local tool supplier has the Delta X5 and the Powermatic 66 in stock, so I can forego the mail-order routine and delivery hassle that most everyone seems to have.
Question is: Is the PM 66 worth an extra $500 over the Delta, and is the slight savings (after shipping) with the Grizzly worth it?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Replies
I have the PM 66 and comparing them side by side to the uni (my buddies saw) the PM66 is designed a little nicer IMHO.
PROS:
Heavier castings
Bottom of cast is painted
Heavy bracket for switch mounting
Baldor motor
Outfeed table is 100X better
They use SOOW from switch to motor.
3/4" arbor shouldered down to 5/8"
Heavy steel used for fence and rails
CONS:
Don't care much for the plastic fence material.
Had some minor paint misses
Hardware to fasten front rails support was a little weak.
The deals on Deltas make it hard to justify the $300 premium. Free shipping, includes blade and cord, cordless drill and maybe even a mobil base.
I would also consider the General. My understanding is that it's a copy of the uni but production seems to be better. Might be better than post WHM PM's. Look for a used PM. I think they might be a bit better than currently produced PM's.
Lots of folks are happy with Griz, General, Delta etc. Any cabinet saw you buy will please you. As far as the $300 (when I was shopping around) premium for the PM, it depends on your obbsesion with detail. In my case, I am a total freak. I justified it and I am happy with the design of the saw.
I had two saw shipped both with issues. PM and Amazon did take care of all of my problems. Both handled matters with great profesionalism. I will continue to give both companies my business.
Thanks for the input Jay - it was primarily your experience with the Amazon purchase (if I'm correct) that led me to think mail-order may not be for me.
I am a freak about detail as well - I'm a mechanical engineer specifically because of that built-in tendency to hyper-analyze mechanical things as if they were organic and alive.
The only Powermatic I have ever used was in shop class in high school - nearly 25 years ago! It was a dream to use compared to all of the saws (mostly Craftsman) I had seen up to then, so I was rather impressed (even for a teenager). I have always heard that PM machines are top-of-the-line, but this new ownership thing bothers me some.
I have looked at the PM and Delta X5 at the local shop, and there are obvious manufacturing details that are a good bit better on the PM.
My dad has a second-hand Grizzly, and he's perfectly happy with it, but then he never has been the perfectionist I am about such things.
Thanks again
Brad,
I'm not sure why, during shipment, they don't block the very heavy motor. Seems that was the cause for my problems. The trunnions fit very loose. The front and rear trunnion pushed apart leaveing slop in the fit between center and outer trunnions. All the saw have to see the road. I have seen 3 saws with this issue. Must be more. Looking over the details, the saw is designed well. May or may not be worth the extra $$$.
I spoke with three industrial dealers during my issue with the Amazon shipped saws. Each dealer suggested a different saw. Delta, General and PM. It is a true divide amongst dealers and users alike.
Did you have any trouble adjusting the trunnions? Were the adjustments available, and did they seem to work as-designed?
Also, it appears to me that the PM trunnion and motor mounting scheme is the main difference in the design of these. The Grizzly and the Delta use the C-shaped trunnion and it appears the PM uses a box-type - is this so? How do you like the way the motor mounts to the trunnion or however it mounts...
When I discovered the problem I assumed it was improperly machined (the halfmoons the center trunnion rides in). The tech simple adjusted out the fore and aft movement of the center trunnion (sqeezed the front trunnion towards the back). This did help to correct the loose movement of the center trunnion. I still have my doubts about the machining of the parts but nothing to qualify my suspicion. Only time will tell. The tech said there has to be some looseness or tilt adjustment would be too stiff. Also once there is a buildup of pitch I would wish for an even looser fit.
Table saw design/construction seems fairly simple. In looking at the layout I think it is well designed. I have little to compare it to. Once I have to do my first bearing change or do a thorough going over of all the adjustments I will have a better feel of it design.
Yes. PM is a box design.
If you're preprared to spend $600 more, you should check out the SawStop saw (http://www.sawstop.com).
It has the blade break - a fabulous feature along with riving knives - also a great safety feature.
Saw appears to be better built than the delta or powermatic. - It's a heavier saw, larger bearings. Dig around the SawStop web site, watch the videos (quite impressive).
Expect to pay more than the delta/PM. (are your fingers worth it?)
Use the advanced search feature of this site to read previous posts here and in Knots.
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Good advice. The rifing knife is athe BEST feature of any saw. European saws all have it standard. My INCA 2100 has one and I don't know how I ever got along without it.
Mark:
Thanks for the info. The Saw Stop saw looks like a pretty well built saw. When I looked at the Saw Stop link you gave, it was kinda hard to actually get to the price because their link button didn't work ($2927 with extension rails and table - to get a somewhat equivalent pkg as an X5 Delta).
I'm not sure I'm quite ready to spend $3000 - was looking to be about $2000 or so. That's why the Powermatic at $2349 here locally (plus 6% sales tax - ouch) was a bit of a reach - so I was looking to see how much justification someone could give me for the difference. So far build quality seems to be the main thing - and I can see that as a good argument - quality is hard to find these days. But the farming out of parts to Taiwan and the overseas ownership of the company really make the "Made in America" thing more of a promise than a fact.
At any rate - I do like the design of the Saw Stop saw. The way the motor mounts to the yoke directly and has an idler pulley to transfer power to the arbor is pretty cool. And the "dust-box" built into the yoke is a good idea, too. I wonder if it is their "clean-sheet" design or if it is an older one from another company. They didn't mention where the parts are being made - I am assuming Taiwan...
Thanks again, but I think I'll wait for more "experience" to develop in the market.
Brad
An e-mail I recieved from an individual regard this subject.
"I can maybe answer your question. First off both saws do what they arement to, and do it well. I went through the same situation last yearbetween Delta, PM and General. I looked at the Delta and PM on the outsideand inside. These are the differances that sold me on the PM.Outside1. PM, polished table, flawless, Delta ground (very poorly as compared toall other brands).2. PM has painted underside of their table and extension wings, Delta isnot painted.3. Smoothness of the crank handles.4. Switch mounting is solid. Not on a flimmsy bracket.5. Fence system is beefier than the Bessi.Inside1. Arbor shaft is beefier, nicely machined.2. Flang is beefier, nicely machined3. Trunion assembly is beefier, more massive.4. Uses a 3 point table mountng system, IMOP better for table flattness.5. I feel PM uses a higher tolerance standard for their machining.Weight of the PM is 75+ more pounds. The PM is the only TS totallymanufactured in the USA. The crank knobs I believe are the only importparts.Jaypoe, like I stated above, both machines will cut wood great, the rest isa matter of opinion. I would not hesitate to spend the additional $$$$again for the PM.As for the General, could not compare visually. I called all of thedealers, each one selling PM and General and 85% of them recommended the PMover the General. But, after reading this Forum i would have definitelytried to look at a Gereral before purchasing my PM, they seem to be highlyrated.P.S. Be aware, if you purchace a PM, the color will grow on you and youwill want more yellow in your shop. At first I did not like the color, butknow it makes me feel good. Can you tell I'm a nut over my tools.If you buy one let me know, I designed an owsome under the table dust hoodsimilar to what is on the Europeon models, it works great."
Brad,
Save the sales tax by buying out-of-state. I know it costs more but in the long run you will appreciate the extra money. The rifing knife and dust collectiion and safety are worth the extra money.
don
Thanks Don. I checked the #'s and 6% is about the same amount I would pay for shipping on just about any saw bought out-of-state. $140 on the Powermatic at $2350. So I guess I should quit whining. And the dealer said he would back me up if ever I had any issues with the saw(s), so that seems to be a good thing.
I really don't know what I'm going to do yet - we'll see...
Brad
Glad you checked it out. FYI you can do a search on this site and Knots and read what others say about the machine - several users have commented over the last year or so.I don't have $3k (yet :-) but SStop is looking like a real possibility unless other mfg pick up the sawstop safety features.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark-
If you were in the market for a new saw, would you buy the SAWSTOP? If so why? I just can not buy a saw that is CONSIDERABLY more than others on the market. I know all about the the features--- but I am still not hooked that is a prudent choice.
I am interested if you would buy it with your own cash.
Let me know yoour thoughts...Thank you,
The Great Marko
Marko -do you work for Saw Stop or Delta or Powermatic? Come clean now. :-)First let's assume that I have $3k to spend and I am deciding between the PM, Delta and SStop.For comparable saws, the PM and Delta are a bit less expensive but not substantially - so price is not a major factor.Having seen my dad cut himself on shop tools twice, (radial arm and Table saw) I put a high value on safety.Clearly the SS has an advantage here - specifically the blade break and the riving knife.Construction wise, From just looking at the pics, I can see it's a well made saw. However, it does have limited market exposure. So how does it perform in the long haul? How can I compare it to the others.Here are a few dimensions I'd look at: Easy adjustment (run-out) low vibration, good, solid, easy to set fence, powerful motor. Precision. Those are all measurable before you buy. Other factor that are harder to measure are part quality - will things break with use? ability to stay adjusted (not loosen up). Toughness etc.Without market experience, it's tough to know this info. However, I take some comfort in the idea that the sstop people know that to enter the high end cabinet maker saw market, they are going to have to make a great machine. That's what it will take to get professionals to switch from their current brand. It is also what they will have to do to get folks like me (upgraders) to consider the saw as well.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark:
I absolutely do not work for any tool company. I actuallly work for Schlage Lock in product marketing. I asked such pointed questions because I am not overly thrilled with the SAWStop business model. They (SS) wanted the other guys (Powermatic, Delta, Jet...) to put their technology into the product. When the established machinery guys did not want deal with SS, SS went to the gov and "lobbied" to get safety features put on all TS for their own benefit.
First that is not capatilistic, democratic or even ethical. So then SS went to Asia and started making product. Now that the product is out, they are behind the 8 ball to sell the thing. And without any marketing (branding) credibilty, they are on the hurt.
My opinion is that the SS is a great product for cabinet shops, and all other production factories. But the hobbiest just will not pay the price tag for the feature. Yes--- the SS features are great-- and can prevent many injuries. I just would not pay for it today.Thank you,
The Great Marko
So it appears that you don't so much have an issue with the saw but more of an issue with the attempt to sell their product through legislation (BTW Drug companies do this all the time - doesn't make it right however)I exchanged emails with the president of saw stop. Why, because I sent a message to Delta suggesting that they consider the blade brake for their saws.The response I received was "lame" ( wish I still had the message) But they said:1. It's not an industry standard (who sets these standards? Why the industry of course - you'll be hard pressed to find any industry that regulates itself)
2. It's not proven technology (what does that mean actually)
3. Why put a safety device on that only works in an accident? (Ok , can you say "air bags" were airbags "proven" when they were first put in cars?)I forwarded this message to the SStop "Info" email, and got a nice, thoughtful response from the President. (along with the airbag example).MarkPerhaps you've heard of Machiavelli"It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has enmity of all who would profit by preservation of the old institutions and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new ones."
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark:
Yes. I think the product is great. Any feature that can save limbs is a wonderful thing. But how they attempted to get into market left a bad taste in my mouth.
New Product Development is a complicated beast in Corporate America. There are many dynamics--- ego, profits, revenue, customer acceptance. The list is endless. The SS is a complicated product that is requires great capital to implement. Getting from a to Z quickly will be impossible.
I would the SS has the best chance for success with production shops that have HIGH insurance premiums. The product could lower premiums. Once the product is accepted in production shops then it has a strong fighting chance to be accepted by the masses including hobbiests. Thank you,
The Great Marko
Yes I think the liability angle is the best way to sell the saw in the shops. Hell they might consider approaching home owners insurance cos and health insurance companies to offer a $50-100 rebate to members who purchase the saw.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark -
I appreciate your passion about this Saw Stop safety thing, and I understand your concerns. I in fact agree with you that it is the greatest thing out in a while, and I like the appearance of some ingenuity that went into the design of this saw. However, I do not like the idea of a company trying to get laws changed to only benefit themselves (via their patent or claim). And I DO NOT want the government telling me that I can't operate my say without one of these things.
I know they tried to get the other manufacturers to put it on their equipment first, and I appreciate the effort they put out. But, this being America, they can't really force something down the consumer's throats and I applaud the other companies for resisting Saw Stop's tactics. When I first saw the video - I thought it was a great idea, and looked to se if it was available as an after-market accessory - it wasn't.
As for the riving knife - a splitter is used for the same thing and can work just as well if you use it. There are also attachments available from several vendors that accomplish the same thing. Check out the Beisemeyer splitter: http://www.biesemeyer.com/safety/index.htm
The bottom line for me is this: I am not afraid of my saw! I have been using equipment like this for years, and I am comfortable operating things. I am extremely cautious and careful with everything I do, and have never had a power tool inflict damage to my body. I've hit my thumb with a hammer plenty of times, and pinched my fingers between parts, and scraped the hide off on various sharp implements - but never had a power tool get me. I didn't just decide last week that I wanted to be a woodworker. I am setting up my "dream shop" after a long wait, and my old Craftsman rip saw that belonged to my grandfather needs to go (no tilt). It has a 2hp 240V motor, no guards, no "stop" button and the cord is frayed - but no one in my family has ever been hurt by it because we understand how to use it.
And besides - I'm not really sure I want a black saw in my shop.
Brad
Bradw1 - I've put your comments in italics and responded to many in plain text.However, I do not like the idea of a company trying to get laws changed to only benefit themselves (via their patent or claim).I see it a bit differently. Yes the law change would benefit SawStop, but it would also benefit any SawStop Table saw user. And I DO NOT want the government telling me that I can't operate my say without one of these things.Yes I have a similar "libertarian" streak in me too. Government intervetion (like the Shivo thing in Florida) is generally a bad thing. Though govt regulation of industry plays an important and necessary role. Think of where we would be without the EPA, FDA, NRC etc.I know they tried to get the other manufacturers to put it on their equipment first, and I appreciate the effort they put out. But, this being America, they can't really force something down the consumer's throats and I applaud the other companies for resisting Saw Stop's tactics. I do wish we had the unvarnished facts on this. Delta/Powermatic have a bigger voice and can spin the story their way kinda like the bully pulpit the president gets. You don't get to hear the other side of the story. (I'll see if I can get the president of SS to join this discussion - I'm betting I couldn't get the pres of Delta/PM to join). But of course the other companies are going to resist and they are going to try to make SS look like the bad guy. Strange, a company trys to make a buck and save lots of fingers and they are the bad guy...???And don't forget, companies on a regular basis, try to tilt the laws/regulations to their favor. I just read a sad artilce about strip mining in Kentucky. Coal companies have permission to level mountains and fill the valleys - in other words, destroy the environment - the permission came from the army core of engineers, federal regulation etc...That being said, SS did try to get other companies to license the technology. The other companies said no (at least for now) for whatever reason. However I strongly suspect, no, I know it was economic reasons. Delta says "if we do it, our saws will be more expensive than Powermatic - we'll lose market share" While Powermatic is saying, "If we do it, our saws will be more expensive than Delta and we'll lose market share." They are also both saying, "Margins are thin, can't cut into the thin margins"The end run approch around the other manufacturers seems to be the govt regulation approach. I'm sure you would do the same thing if you were in the same situation.Good ideas and innovations are driven into existence through courageous patience (Admiral Hyman Rickover - founder of the Nuclear Navy) When I first saw the video - I thought it was a great idea, and looked to se if it was available as an after-market accessory - it wasn't.It still is a great idea, and I too looked for it as an aftermarket add-in. Guess there is just too much variability from saw to saw to make it economically reasonable.As for the riving knife - a splitter is used for the same thing and can work just as well if you use it. There are also attachments available from several vendors that accomplish the same thing. Check out the Beisemeyer splitter: http://www.biesemeyer.com/safety/index.htmSpitters are great, and I have nothing but good words for the Bessy products, but you have to take splitters off for some operations. There is a chance you won't put it back on. The riving knife is always there and raises and lowers with the blade. Overall a better solution, but it has to be designed in. (though my dad took his splitter of off his Delta cabinet saw - he hates it).The bottom line for me is this: I am not afraid of my saw! I have been using equipment like this for years, and I am comfortable operating things. I am extremely cautious and careful with everything I do, and have never had a power tool inflict damage to my body.Good, you must ALWAYS respect the equipment. In 30 years of working with power tools (I started using my dad's TS at age 13) I've been hurt twice (neither with a TS and neither seriously). But it only takes once on a TS to lose fingers (an uncle of mine lost 2.5 in one accident) I'm using a an ancient Craftsman myself (50 years?) - mine does tilt (but the threadded rod used to tilt gets clogged with sawdust and out near 30* it is really hard to crank)Think about it, I've been using the same TS since about 1988. Roughly 15 years. If I paid $2500 for that saw, it's $166 per year. The saw stop might be $15 of those $166. Are your fingers worth 15 bucks a year? I've hit my thumb with a hammer plenty of times, and pinched my fingers between parts, and scraped the hide off on various sharp implements - but never had a power tool get me. You've been lucky so far.I didn't just decide last week that I wanted to be a woodworker. I am setting up my "dream shop" after a long wait, and my old Craftsman rip saw that belonged to my grandfather needs to go (no tilt). It has a 2hp 240V motor, no guards, no "stop" button and the cord is frayed - but no one in my family has ever been hurt by it because we understand how to use it.I and many many craftsman will tell you they understand how to use their tools. It does not matter. They've still been hurt. Understanding does not imply "No accidents." Read the "safety" thread going on in Knots. Many a wise and experienced WWorker has been hurt.And besides - I'm not really sure I want a black saw in my shop.I think black is kinda cool - certainly better than phlegm yellow of powermatic. MarkMeasure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.Edited 3/24/2005 9:15 am ET by Mark
Edited 3/24/2005 9:15 am ET by Mark
Edited 3/24/2005 9:24 am ET by Mark
So I'm not the only one that doesn't like black. Strange choice, usually want something that bounces light or is neutral. I would have to paint mine, I'm sure. I wouldn't want to walk into my shop and see "the black hole" every day.The Sawstop seems like a great tool. But since a cab saw is usually once every 25 years I'm s little leery of the technology and whether the company will survive.Their saw is so different that replacement parts could be an issue if they go under.I'll be upgrading later this year but I'll have to do a lot of convincing of myself before I part with 3K versus 1k for a used PM 66 or the Bridgewood Left-tilt.And then if I cut my finger off down the road...luckily I don't have to decide right now.
Brad,
I appreciate and understand your point of view about being forced to buy something. However, I hope you will consider the other side of the coin. In this case, as you noted, we spent about 2 years trying to convince the existing major power tool manufacturers to adopt something like SawStop. They all chose not too. The question is why?
In my opinion you only have to look at the economics of the situation to understand why. As pointed out in an earlier post, the margins are thin in this industry and no one wants to make their saws more expensive for fear of losing sales to their competitors. Even more important, the power tool companies are not the ones paying for the injuries that occur on their products - woodworkers and society (through insurance premiums) are. The question therefore becomes, what's in it for them and the answer is "not much" if you only consider the economics since the power tool companies don't make any more money if their customers don't cut off their finger than if they do. I happen to think its the right thing to do, but that doesn't bring up the stock price much at the end of the quarter.
I don't really understand why people focus so much on whether SawStop would benefit from the proposed requirement. Certainly we think we would or we would not have put the effort into that we did. Maybe we are evil self serving villains, but who cares? It seems to me the question should be "does it make sense for society as a whole to require saws to incorporate something like SawStop or not?" taking into account all the costs and benefits that would result from the proposal. When you look at it that way it is an easy call. There are over 60,000 medically treated accidents on tablesaws every year. The cost of these accidents to society is about $2 billion per year. (Source - U.S. Comsumer Product Safety Commission) The total market for table saws is probably about $200 million per year - or about 1/10th the amount of damage caused. In other words, table saws are doing about 10 times their purchase price in economic harm. Even if you assume SawStop doubled the price of table saws, which is doesn't, it would still make economic sense to put it on all saws.
Also in the category of FWIW, our saws are going out to a pretty random selection of woodworkers (hobbiests vs professionals), with maybe a slight extra weighting to schools. You might also be interested to learn that we have had our first two "saves" reported in the last week! One didn't even bleed and the other took a bandaid.
Steve Gass, President/SawStop LLC
Steve, thanks for joining us. Can I get one of those saws for free now :-)Best,
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
It's easy in the middle of these SawStop debates to miss the fact that it is just plain a very nice saw. Massive, smooth, accurate, and well built. SawStop understood that safety alone does not sell saws when designing theirs. I'm a hobbyist, although a somewhat serious one, so they are for more than just professional shops. I don't consider the saw to be much more expensive than a PM66 in the long run, and you are getting a lot more saw. More design, more cast iron, and more electronics. IMO the SawStop is a good value.
I understand that there are several hundred out in shops as I write this, and that there have already been a couple legitimate saves - woodworkers who ran their hands into the blade accidently and came out with mere scratches. See one in person if you can. It's a great machine and a real pleasure to use. I too was skeptical about the black...but now appreciate it.
Dwright,I'm not the skeptic here. I'm alread sold. If you read my posts you'll see that I'm defending the machine. (I also sent an email to Steve the president of SawStop so he could check this thread out).I'm trying to scratch up the $$ to get one. It's going to be a while however.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark, I should have changed the reply to "All". Take Care, Dave
Steve -
Thanks for coming in on this. I appreciate your efforts and your input, and I really do respect what you guys have done (despite what impression Mark and others may have formed).
My opinion on the question of why others haven't adopted your technology is this: They are waiting to see if they can get by without licensing your product until the patent expires - then they'll "invent" their own version. And I really don't question what your motives were - same as everyone else's in our capitalist society.
However, I must firmly disagree when it comes to government regulation. All it does is add cost to my life. I believe that a company should be punished for polluting the environment (GE along with The Military have ruined numerous sites, and I agree with Mark that the mining methods used in the Pittsburg Coal Seam is a national tragedy), for stealing from employees and investors (Enron, etc.), and for causing workers to be harmed unknowingly (Asbestos).
On the other hand, I don't think it is the responsibility of government to protect idiots from themselves. If someone wants to take off all of the safety devices, and is careless enough to get injured or killed - to bad. I am for improving the gene pool.
Take the Ford Explorer 'roll-over" stuff for instance: Ford definitely has some of the blame for creating a product that has directional instability when loaded creating a condition that most drivers can't handle, and for allowing sorry excuses for tires to be put on their best seller. But, the idiots driving the vehicles are at least 50% to blame because they are allowing their families to ride without seatbelts, they are driving with their wrist hanging on the steering wheel, talking on the cell phone and laying on the armrest while driving 85 on the interstate with tires that they didn't think to notice were underinflated - so they should pay some price for their carelessness.
Safety equipment should be available but not mandatory - if I choose to operate my saw without all the safety stuff that's should be my right. If I screw up, the government should NOT give me a free pass to blame the manufacturer of the product. The Safety ####'s are one of the reasons most of our manufacturing is gone, so until Taiwan and China adopt some minimum standards for workers, we'll be faced with losing steadily more of it.
If you told me your saw was more expensive because it was being built by Americans who had a strong commitment to quality and who wanted to take back some of our market share by building a hands-down better product, and if I could get it in some color other than black, I might consider it because I like what I've seen. But I'm not going to pay $1000 for a blade stopper. When you have one that I can bolt on to my Delta or Grizzly or PM for $200 let me know.
Thanks, Brad
Brad,
I appreciate the civilness of your reply. I guess I don't understand your logic. You say that regulation increases the costs in your life. However, if you accept my figures on the costs of injuries and cost to implement SawStop to avoid those injuries, I don't see how you can say that the regulation would increase the cost. I'm not arguing that all regulations are justified or good - I'm just looking at the cost/benefit ratio for implementing something like SawStop - and it seems like society clearly comes out ahead. In other words, you save money. If we can make manufacturing here cheaper by reducing injuries, isn't that going to help rather than hurt our costs relative to other countries and thereby help us keep jobs here?
The other point you make is one of personal responsibility. However, in our society, we all have to pay the costs of other peoples choices and lack of personal responsibility. If some "idiot" cuts his hand off on a tablesaw and can no longer support himself or his family, it is you and I that are going to be footing the bill through insurance premiums and taxes to support the social welfare programs that will provide for that individual.
Also, keep in mind that the "SawStop" part of our saw probably adds only a couple hundred of the $1000 price difference you refer to. Most of the price difference comes from the extra cast iron and other mechanical features in our saw, not SawStop.
By the way, you're in the minority on the color. :-)
Steve
Steve -
I think you are ultimately right. I do understand that some things benefit society as whole in the end. But then I think if some guy cuts his own hand off by being careless he should be disqualified from receiving any welfare from the government (taxpayers), and his insurance premium should reflect his carelessness. I guess what I'm saying (up on my soap box) is that I am pretty sick and tired of paying for the ignorance rate in society - I don't think it is my place. I would much rather put that money into REAL education (obviously not what we have - I live in Georgia #49 so I know what I'm talking about here). In this most weathly of nations it really is a sorry excuse that people here are so stupid as a whole and that we have to support them anyway. And this symptom is purely for lack of standards and expectations - these things were removed by the education experts and we tolerate it.
I'm not worried about cutting off my hand or I probably wouldn't use a table saw in the first place. And I wear my seat belt in spite of an air bag. I installed seat belts in my '64 Impala SS Convertible in 1982 at 16 - before it was a law. Seat belts have saved my life on at least three occasions. I'm not stupid when it comes to safety, so I'm not going around scared and worried about doing my thing, no matter what the government regulates.
(Now stepping off my soapbox) I guess for me the timing for your saw is just not right - in 5 years you may be a force to be reckoned with and I hope you are, but today I just can't do it. Like I said before - when you guys come up with a kit to add to my Delta - I'll very likely buy it.
Thanks, Brad
Brad,
Again, I certainly understand your issues with some of the issues with education and responsibility in our society. There are a lot of things I would change if I were in charge, but as it is we have to make the best of what we've got and there isn't any better system out there that I'm aware of. I've seen a fair amount of the world and there was no place else I felt like moving in because things were so much better!
Anyway, I wish you the best with your Delta. I grew up using my Dad's Unisaw and they are a good machine and you will find it a pleasure to use. It sounds like you are generally very safety conscious anyway, and I'm sure I have a skewed point of view on this because I get calls almost every day from someone who thought they were being careful and still had an accident, but please be very, very careful as tablesaws are terribly unforgiving of even small mistakes.
Steve
Steve, I'm very impressed with your product.Got a question: are you contemplating offering the stop cartridge as a retrofit for existing saws?As things stand now, I'd like to purchase one of your machines, but upgrades on the house are taking priority for the next few years.Retrofitting a stop cartridge to my Rockwell would be (possibly) a more immediately affordable solution.Regards,Leon Jester
One more call for a risk free society - insulated from life, death or potential injury, don't get up in the morning is what I say. If this misplaced lawsuit weren't so ferociously evil I would laugh at Saw stop's contention that they are doing it for mankind. I wonder what you would think of some lot filing a lawsuit against the mfgrs of pickup trucks and suvs because they are more likely to injure someone in an collision or for that matter because they are unfriendly to the ozone. You'd probably be first in line to tar and feather them.
One more call for a risk free society - insulated from life, death or potential injury, don't get up in the morning is what I say. If this misplaced lawsuit weren't so ferociously evil I would laugh at Saw stop's contention that they are doing it for mankind. I wonder what you would think of some lot filing a lawsuit against the mfgrs of pickup trucks and suvs because they are more likely to injure someone in an collision or for that matter because they are unfriendly to the ozone. You'd probably be first in line to tar and feather them.
****************Errr.... I don't recall advocating a risk-free society any time in the past or recently.Won't discuss either the Selous Scouts or ARAMCO, both probably before your time, was recruited by both.Own a Suburban.Rather attached to my fingers, would prefer to stay that way. In case you haven't read all of my posts, there are a couple in Knots with the letters RT-R after my name. I'm a Registered Radiographer. I treat people that argue with table saw blades.I'll suggest you figure out what you're talking -- or typing -- about before you use a keyboard again.And take the feet out of your mouth. It looks bad.Just in case you don't get it --Leon W. Jester, Jr., RT-R, AAS, ARRTLeon Jester
The post wasn't directed at you specifically, your message was last in line.
Own a Suburban
Truly? read my post again.
Rather attached to my fingers, would prefer to stay that way.
It sounds like a great invention. If you want a sawstop I'm in favor of you buying one, you and Mr. Sawstop want me to have a sawstop that is where we have a problem. Filing a lawsuit in this situation is ridiculously self serving. But hey, its the American (Bar Association) way.
I'll suggest you figure out what you're talking -- or typing -- about before you use a keyboard again.
That's the thing about the internet: You can represent yourself as a former mercenary and I can tell you I'm retired military and of course the bottom line: If you don't like what I've got to say fire away or pass on by.
Bon Chance Leon
It sounds like a great invention. If you want a sawstop I'm in favor of you buying one, you and Mr. Sawstop want me to have a sawstop that is where we have a problem. Filing a lawsuit in this situation is ridiculously self serving. But hey, its the American (Bar Association) way.
***************I'm not -- as a general rule -- the type that involves lawyers in my disputes with others. Had I deeper pockets, say, winning the big number, I could make an exception for the ex-.Although it sounds somewhat self serving, industrial accidents and trampolines = job security for folks like me.Bon chance.Leon Jester
Leon,
It would certainly be nice to be able to offer SawStop as a retrofit, but unfortunately, it takes a complete redesign of the internal mechanism of the saw to accommodate the braking system. The cost of replacing all this structure and installing on a retrofit basis would be as much or more than the cost of a new saw assembled on a production line where everything is going to be a lot more efficient to put together.
Steve
SteveDoes it require 'a complete redesign of the internal mechanism' because of the desire to drop the blade down below the table top when the stop fires, or is it the isolation required so the saw stays out of the contact sensor's way electrically, or is there something else I'm not aware of?Just curious.
Scott,
The problem is mostly having someplace strong enough to mount the brake that will tilt with the blade and go up and down with the blade. You also have to make sure that the braking torque created by stopping the blade doesn't tend to make the saw jump up. That is why we moved the pivot that allows the blade to drop to the back of the saw - so the braking torque pulls the blade down instead of pushing it up. With that geometry, you just have to provide a spring detent type release to allow the blade to retract when there is a large downward force, such as when the brake is engaged. The retraction is purely a byproduct of the braking torque created in stopping the blade.
Steve
Steve, it's not clear to me, does the SS destroy the blade? Not that it matters much - I'd rather have the finger than the blade but I was just curious.I watched the videos on your web site and it looks like the break (at the high speed) is some sort flowing substance - I'm assuming that it's the effect of slowing all that kinetic energy (m v squared) down so quickly that whatever it hits looks like a liquid from impact and sudden heat dissapation.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Mark,
I generally tell people to figure that it will destroy the blade. Normally what happens is that it removes a couple of the carbides. On a cheap blade that's a throw away, on a good blade it may be worth having it inspected and repaired at a saw shop.
The brake in the high speed video on our web site is a piece of clear polycarbonate. It does bend and deform a fair amount and it seems like the "chips" from the teeth are pulled out almost like a viscous liquid, but by the time I've handled it, everything has always felt solid. In our production saws, we use very soft aluminum since it stops plywood blades much faster. It is sort of amazing how it crumples up the aluminum brake pawl.
Steve
I've been watching this thread with great interest for some time now.
For several months now I’ve been trying to decide between the Powermatic 66 and the Delta Unisaw. Pretty much had decided on one saw until I changed my mind 2 weeks ago, on my way to the hospital, with my finger split down the middle to the first joint like a hot dog, and 27 stitches later. I’m going to go with the SawStop. Yep, it’s more expensive than the Powermatic or Unisaw but I’m looking at a $1200 emergency visit bill on my desk and I'm not done yet. I’ve been a woodworker for 35 years and other than a sliver here or there I’ve never had a scratch. It can happen to anyone at any time. If the technology’s out there and the SawStop’s comparable to the other saws, I’m going with the SawStop.
IMSA
Sorry to hear about your accident. Hope everthing heals up ok. Keep us posted. Some of us have been where you are now, others are wondering when it will happen to us.Best of Luck,
MarkPS I'm a fan of the SawStop...
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Thanks for the kind words Mark. I'm going to have a funny looking finger for a while but at least I didn't cut the end of my finger off. My trip to the hospital would be a great SawStop commercial. While my girlfriend drove me to the hospital, I kept repeating over and over "I'm going to get a *^#*@$ SAWSTOP".
The Saw Stop looks like a well built machine, expensive, but add on the cost of a emergency vist to the Delta or Powermatic, it's pretty close. I keep reading different woodworking forums looking for opinions regarding the SawStop fence system and have yet to see an opinion one way or another. I really like my Unifence and may look into seeing if it could be installed on the SawStop.
IMSA
Very sorry to hear about the finger. Hopefully you won't have lasting effects.Thanks for reporting the incident. I'm on the upgrade path and swaying a few different ways but your story reminds me of things that I know in the back of my head.I keep telling myself I have very safe work habits but yet I have witnessed accidents in the shop that happen to people that are experienced and careful.A very good reminder that it just takes a bad day or blind chance and it can happen.Much to think about. Emergency room and lost production cost vs. initial cost of Sawstop. Nobody expects to have an accident.
Regarding the fence, I believe that the fence is made of a material that will not trip the sawstop mechanism. Other than that, I cannot say.However, go to the saw stop site and follow the "contact us" link. You are likely to get a reply directly from Steve Gass, the president of SS.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
One more thought,You can't buy insurance after the accident!Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Thanks, Steve.That's what I'd thought, but I'd had hopes, I did.Good luck with the new products.Leon Jester
Dropped in on lunch break and want to offer another perspective.I'm a capitalist and firm believer in the free market. But some of what you are saying comes pretty close to social Darwinism. If someone cuts off their hand I don't think they should be rewarded for it. But I also don't think that person deserves to be homeless because of a mistake. Maybe that person was careless or maybe it was a freak accident or maybe they were poorly trained. But then again the fact is some people aren't very smart but I don't think they should be punished for it. I think being maimed takes care of that.I had an experience that might explain this better. I was working as a manager/buyer for a retail furniture store and we were relocating and renovating an old building. It had a freight elevator with clamshell doors; one comes down, one comes up. At our old warehouse we had a freight elevator with an overhead door you just pulled down to close.The store owner sent me over to move some things into the new building and didn't tell me about the doors. I pulled down the door thinking it was a regular overhead door. The handle on the inside of the door was missing so I grabbed the only handle I saw (on the outside of the door)turned my head to say something to a coworker, and pulled down hard since it was a big heavy iron door. I think you can guess what happened.My hand was crushed. Compound fractures, the bones came though the skin.This is how I learned there is such a thing as clamshell doors in freight elevators. I didn't get any lawyers involved because I liked my employer and know he didn't mean for that to happen. It was an oversight on his part. But his spaciness was mostly responsible for the accident. I wouldn't have used that technique to close the door if I had known anything about the second door that comes up. That probably goes without saying. The point is I guess that its not like there is any kind of licensing process to be certified to operate a table saw. So you don't know if the person has been properly trained on the tool. I have worked in professional shops that don't have any safety equipment on the saws and their training is mostly, "be careful". So if some person is "professionally" trained in that situation they won't have any idea if they are doing something unsafe until an accident occurs.These shops also seem to really resent OSHA because they "tell them how to run their business". I mean if someone is stupid enough to put their hand in a table saw...I'm not trying to be smart-guy and don't know how this will come across but I think there is more to accidents than just pointing at the operator. I'm not sure how much post has to do with Sawstop but wanted to offer a different point of view regarding operator errors.
In case you haven't seen them, here are pictures of the Saw Stop GutsGreat shots.Markhttp://www.sawstop.com/cabinet%20saw%20photo%20gallery.htm
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
OK- I'm a bit of an outlier on this one. My own feeling about safety is that you should be trained in good habits, adapt them and stay in that routine. It surprises me that most of the power tool manuals I have seen do not give specific safety instructions- other than eye and ear protection. They don't talk about body position, avoiding kick back etc.
I find some of the guards and other features to be poorly designed- designed to prevent liability, not injury. When I was taught to use a TS, I was instructed where to stand, where to put my hands, how and how not to clamp wood for crosscutting, when to be especially careful about kick back. I follow this routine- no exceptions. Same thing with a router table or a shaper.
As for radial arm saws, I think they are best for cross cutting wood to size, and I avoid ripping on them. If you stand to the side of an RS, pinch clamp the wood and pull the saw forward with your right hand while placing your left behind your back (or at least 18" away from the path of the saw), it is hard to imagine how an injury can occur. If you are crosscutting a thick piece of bowed wood, cut through half way, flip it over, and finish the cut. Mill it and then safely cut it to exact size.
The problem with some of these other approaches to shop safety (at least to me) is that they foster a false sense of security, and sometimes, complacency. Most safety procedures are effective and stepwise- my feeling is that I try not to skip any steps. So far my most serious injury was from a chisel...(knock on wood...)
Glaucon
Hi Brad - Of those three machines, my preference would be for the PM66. They're all nice saws, but I think you stand a better chance of being trouble free with the PM. I'd hazard a guess that the same is true of the Uni vs the Griz. PM is still claimed to be made in the US. The Uni makes a similar claim, but I've been reading comments lately stating that the Uni's iron comes from China, the motor from Brazil, and the assembly takes place here.
If I were buying in the PM's price range, I'd seriously consider the General 650. Family owned business who still builds them the old fashioned way...heavy duty to last darn near forever. The CI is forged by them in Canada, they assemble and level the wings for you, and it comes with an American made Baldor motor. Wood Mag's #1 pick. (~ $1900)
Keep us posted would ya?
Edited 3/20/2005 7:38 am ET by sliversRus
The General was my second choice. You keep talking it up and I'll end up with one of those in my shop as well.
I'd really look for a nice used machine. My late 60's vintage unisaw was $650.00 with a new Delta brand motor and bearings. I added a Vega fence and have a great saw for under $900.00.
I think I have decided what to do - it's going to be a Delta!
I was strongly leaning toward Grizzly because of price and service after the sell, but I really don't want to order a saw and have shipping hassles or quality problems to deal with. And it is ultimately only $300 less than the Delta.
I was torn a little about the PM 66 - I have always wanted one, and I've had it on my Amazon wish list for two or three years now. But I really don't like the fact that I wouldn't know if the parts were made in the Jet factory or not until I had a problem, and I'm really not all that crazy about supporting the Swiss economy and the trade deficit. Their customer service doesn't seem to be as good from what I've read. And $800 is a pretty good premium to pay for a saw that I think is a better design but not enough for me to get excited about. The PM would cost me $2750 with a blade and a mobile base and taxes (or shipping) - compared to $1860 for the Delta X5 including all of that.
Some expressed concerns that Delta was out-sourcing parts. They definitely have a plant in China, so I don't doubt that some of the castings may come from there. But as long as they stand behind it - I don't care. The motors are either Weg or Marathon for the most part. Weg is Brazilian and Marathon is American. I've seen some 3000 hp Weg motors running a chipping mill, some 500 hp ones on a pump station, and you know what - they are pretty sweet running compared to some from other manufs. I've seen in plants here and there. I really don't have a problem with them. The local dealer said he sells 4-1 Delta to PM, and he has better factory support from Delta. I like the fact that I can look at the saw before I buy it because the dealer is handling the shipping issues up front.
But bottom line for me - Delta is still an American company whether they are out-sourcing to compete or not. I really do want to support American companies when I can because of the foreigners hating us so much. I stood in my shop and thought about it, and what hit me while I was standing there is this: My hand-me-down Rockwell-Invicta 13" 2hp planer is a Delta, my new (7 years old) 14-1/2" bandsaw is a Delta, my used 16" drill press is a Delta, my hand-me-down wood lathe is a Delta, and a good many people I have known over the years (before anything from Taiwan was worth a hoot) have Delta Unisaws that they swear by.
So, I decided to ask the ultimate authority and most neutral party in all of this, my wife. She said, without hesitation, "all of your other big tools are Delta and you like them, so your saw should be one, too - and besides I like the gray ones best, they look more industrial". My fate is sealed.
Thanks to everyone for their input. Jay - I hope you enjoy your Powermatic - it's definitely a great saw! Mark - I hope you are able to get a Saw Stop - I do not think you will be disappointed AT ALL. And Steve from Saw Stop - I wish you the best of luck with your company and your products.
I'll let you guys know how it turns out when I get it.
Thanks, Brad
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled