I have been thinking (AGAIN !) about getting and using a CAD program. I did a search and got 251 results. I read a lot of them, but they do not seem to help much in my thinking and decision on CAD’s. My current thoughts are that a program that would allow me to make drawings and plans similar to the ones we see in woodworking magazines would be sufficient. I have read some about Alibre Design 9.1; A9CAD; Delta CAD Program; Sketchup by Google.6 and Turbo CAD.
Here is some background information about me:
1. I am an amateur hobbyist woodworker and have been for 35+ years.
2. I am 77 years old.
3. My education includes a BBA degree in Industrial Management.
4. My work background was primarily in management in a large steel mill and management of a small production company that primarily involved a machine shop. I am not a machinist.
5. I do a variety of woodworking projects from cabinetry to small boxes and jewelry chests. I do what I think will be fun and includes learning experiences.
6. I believe I am fairly computer literate, especially considering my age and lack of any computer background in school or work.
7. I have a shop and woodworking tools sufficient to tackle the type projects mentioned above.
8. Like most retirees, now-a-days, I am involved in civic and church activities which I try to keep at a minimum.
I am willing to devote time to learning how to use the program, but do not want the time period to be long and protracted.
I need to add one more bit of information. And, that is regarding time to learn and practice the CAD program. I expect to have knee replacement surgery in March or April. From experience with my other knee replacement, I expect there will be time when this is about all I will be inclined to do.
If I give you people any more personal information, we may have to get married. Ha! That don’t sound right considering the gender of most of those who will reply.
I’m not inclined in that direction, and, besides, I am already married 52 years.
Your recommendations will be welcome and appreciated.
Billy B.
Edited 2/14/2007 1:04 am ET by Billy B.
Replies
Hi Billy B
Computer Assisted Drawing is great, and for someone that is technically inclined, and learning to use a CAD program will be more fun than playing games on a computer. There is a learning curve for all the programs you mentioned so you need to decide how far you will want to go. True, you think that right now you will limit your involvement to simple sketches, but if you like it, you may decide to get deeper into the details. The Google program is a good place to start because it is free at the startup level. It also offers features that are fun to use and amazing to view as a finished product. Try it for a while and you will see if you want more than it will allow you to do. If yes, then you will need a more involved program.
One of the programs you did not yet read about, according to your list, is by AutoCad and it is called AutoCad LT, simpler than the full blown AutoCad but still with enough features to allow you to produce professional quality drawings that are compatible with the full blown version of AutoCad. All the programs you mentioned are able to give you acceptable finished products. Good luck and enjoy the journey. JL
Would you be interested in providing or referencing an example of what you want to be able to do. "Like a woodworking magazine" is a bit vague.
I'm sure you appreciate there is no CAD s/w worth having that does not have a relatively challenging and time consuming learning curve . . . most unfortunately. jc
For furniture design, I recommend you first use the free version of Sketchup. It is a 3D design program, not strictly CAD, but fairly easy to learn--much easier than the CAD programs I've used--and it provides a quick way to play around with scale and proportions, the heart of design.
Hi Billy I have Design cad 3d max if you look on ebay you can find some there.I find 3D is a pain in the butt. Mark
Hi Billy;I began to learn AutoCad, oh about 12-14 years ago and have never really liked it. (been labelled a bit of a contrarian for my POV) Recently I downloaded the free version of Sketchup. Now this is what I expected oh so many years ago and boy is it FUN. So far I have only been using it to design houses but as I become more familiar with the program I think it has immense potential. The only problem that I can see is that I may just get hooked on learning Sketchup and forget to go into the shop and build anything. Anyway I am having a blast with this program. I would suggest giving it a try.Greg
Edited 2/14/2007 1:04 am by gwsaltspring
I want to go on record as one to discourage this particular ambition of yours. Although respectful of your wishes and the suggestions thus far provided you, I feel the technology that you (and I) want has not yet arrived. It is important to be clear about what you want from CAD. I find it to be a good way to exhibit nonexistent product(s)--but a mediocre means of preparing to build.I've spent hundreds of hours with CAD home design, and had some rewarding results; but it's been tough. You've got to really want the outcome and be patient about producing it.For me, the time spent with woodworking or cabinet CAD is better applied to pencil and paper and/or model building. These two alternative means allow and sometimes compel focus on joinery and hands on cutting and assembly. Too often I've seen design flaws in my thinking while sketching that could be hidden by s/w that automatically shoots a line from one point to another (and knows nothing about operating a shop tool).SketchUp is unique and clever. And you knew you could try any CAD you like long before you submitted the question . . . no argument there. I think you'll be frustrated, though, (as I have been), and want only to say so--to offset some of the positive suggestions that may be misleading. I know it is often "cool" to be gung ho about implementing technology. However, I'm not sure it is an appropriate tact in this instance.Best regards.
InMyOpinion--I was unable to go to sleep, so got up and checked e-mail. Got some notifications of posts. Two were from you. I will be giving this message a couple more days, then will be thanking everyone.
As to your first reply and question asked. Let me give you an example of what I am thinking of projects to design and view with the CAD. I will be making four (4) computer work stations for use in my son's business office. As we are thinking at this time, each station, will have legal size hanging files. There will be a common console between two workers to share. It will protrude out from the front edge of the two work surfaces (desk tops). This is where we are planning to have the hanging files. And, where the console is located we will have computer towers (one for each worker's computer) in a cabinet underneath and between the two stations supporting the two station work surfaces (desks). At the desk ends there will be another cabinet with drawers, etc.
Now this is one project I have in mind. And, I am thinking this will be fairly typical of any furniture project I might try.
I will be weighing everyone's recommendations and comments. All are welcome and much appreciated.
Thanks for you question and comments.
Billy B.
Have you checked out the thread in the Project Plans/Cad forum? I think it is titled "Reasonably priced design software...." or something close.GregEdited 2/14/2007 1:11 am by gwsaltspring
Edited 2/14/2007 1:12 am by gwsaltspring
The TurboCad people (IMSI) sent me an e-mail with a special price on TurboCad v12. It's now $100, "reduced" from $320.
I find it useful to tweak the proportions of my design. I have only used the 2D, not the 3D.
Call 1-800-810-5939 with promo code 307315. Offer ends Feb. 28, 2007
For the record, I do not work for IMSI.
This thread belongs in the CAD vs. General Discussion section. Note the image there and what went into making the drawing. jc
CAD programs are so much better than Skecth-up by google. But there is a steep learning curve. I personally use Vectorworks 3D CAD. It's great. You can start out building in 2D and then make it 3D. Plus you can add textures like actual wood grain and other things. Plus you can render your design into photo realistic rendering. With lightsources and shadows, it makes designing easy, because you can virtually see a finished product before you even start building.
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Kaleo
Sketch Up has in the works a module for furniture making. I will be part of the free add ons. Judging by the size of the add on (which is not ready yet) it should be very comprehensive. JL
I downloaded Alibre Design in December after reading a review. I was using the free trial version for about a month and not making much headway. Then a representative from the company called me one day and offered their Workshop version for $450. with a 4 CD tutorial and free on-line training and a program called Sheet Layout. Their website lists it for around $1,100 without the tutorial.
I must have been feeling a bit weak that day, because I bought it. Anyway, I have been learning the program and now feel after almost 2 months that it was a good purchase. I am getting proficient with it, but you do have to spend a long time learning the program.
I haven't used the on-line training - I don't have the patience to sit through a lecture on-line - but the CD's are great. There are many lessons ranging from 3 minutes to 20+ minutes. I can watch one when I have a few minutes to relax. I'm about half-way through them and I don't think I could have learned it without them.
So if you are inclined to purchase a CAD program, I'd recommend you download this trial version and register it. Maybe someone will call you and offer a similar deal.
Billy B.
Go to Deltacad.com and download a trial version of their program. It's a simple drawing program for making 2D drawing. It's worked for me fine and it doesn't take long to learn. They give you 30 days to play with it before you buy the program.
Joe
Hello Billy, I am not sure if you are looking for 2D or 3D/solid models cad program. A program that we use here at work is Solidedge. The entire solid, assembly, and drafting modelers can be expensive, but they are offering the 2D package for free. Just Google for Solidedge free 2D.
Good luck
Mike
The pay version of Sketchup is supposed to be pretty capable and easy to use. I have used the free version and it is too limited for what I do. Alibre gets very good reviews on the CAD forums and seems to offer a lot of power for the money. I use Inventor which is one of the more expensive options, but it is very easy to learn and offers tremendous power. Dont write off 2D CAD, it is a lot less expensive and generally easier to learn. However for me nothing beats the ability to pan and rotate a 3D image to see the real result.
If you have the time a patientce send out for trial versions of the products that most interest you. Run them all enough to learn their quirks. Most will have the same tools and features. What varies is the design process. Some depend on sketches (Inventor) some on primitive geometry followed by extensive modification (sketchup).
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Billy B.,
I think I know exactly what you are thinking. Being able to develop a set of dimensioned drawings in a manner that the entire piece or a section of the piece can be resized without starting over would be great - BUT - I have found that the learning curve is very steep and that the cheaper the software the harder the learning is because there are so few resources for help. I have been trying, without any formal training, to teach my self CAD. I have been very frustrated and generally unsuccessful. I have bought and tried TurboCAD, DesignCAD, DeltaCAD, I also tried SketchUp. SketchUp came the closest but the free version is better for buildings than workstations.
My suggestion find a community college CAD course, buy the student version of the software and have an opportunity to have someone to ask questions of. You'll probably end up with some version of AutoCad and you may spend a few more dollars (maybe quite a few) but you'll have something that you can use.
Otherwise I bet you'll spend all of the time you wanted to devote to building the workstations recovering from the hand surgery required after you put your fist into the computer monitor.
Good advise Carver.
Now I will make another suggestion to all interested. Excel, yes, from MS Office, can be used to draw. The grid needs to be adjusted so that it is square, and with the drawing toolbar, can do a decent drawing. It is manual, but it does work...and it is free if you already have Excel on your computer. JL
Sounds like you are mainly using 2D. Most 2D CAD does not have the comprehensive constraint management necessarry and cant reference other parts in an assembly the way real 3D CAD can.
For the most part 2D CAD is for drawing pictures. Very detailed and deminsioned pictures. Solid Works, Inventor, Alibre and to some extent Sketch Up are meant to design things to be built.
If you are trying to use Turbo CAD for adaptive assemblies it will be very frustrating. The tools and fundamental aproach to design that these programs use is not ideal for that kind of work. The others I mention use a different approach with tools and constraints that work better in an adaptive assembly.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I use CATIA in my day job, and TurboCAD at home. I've been using CAD for couple of decades, pretty much since there's been 'CAD'. Yes, there's a learning curve, but so what? If you have the time, and especially if you're laid up and can't get to the shop, go for it. TurboCAD is a full featured CAD package and is a very good CAD tool for the money, but like somebody already said, the more features, the steeper the learning curve.
But rather than suggesting a CAD package (most of the good one have already been mentioned), here's my advice. First, whatever you get, look at the learning tools, the training material. MAKE SURE THERE ARE GOOD TUTORIALS THAT COME WITH THE TOOL. Second, if you're able to afford it, set up your computer to use two video monitors so you can have your tutorial on one monitor, and your CAD tool on the second monitor. I'm an IT CAD/CAM analyst and this is how I work these days. Windows XP runs two monitors just fine and lemme tell ya, it's the ONLY way to go. Having your CAD tool on one monitor and your tutorial on the second will greatly aid your ability to learn any CAD system and dramatically speed up the learning curve.
Hope that helps.
Jeff
I want to thank all of you that have replied. There has been something useful from each reply and the inquiry to you people was well worth it.
Now it is time for me to spend some time delving into tutorials, manuals, etc. of each program suggested. Fortunately, my brother does engineering work with a large chip manufacturer and he has some contacts where he works that can be taped for help.
I won't say just yet if I will get a program or, if I do, which one will settle on. The odds are better that I will get one.
Thank's again people, you have been great and helpful. You all are much appreciated.
Billy B.
Billy, if you want to see google sketchup in action, go to http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com. He uses it to design a table/desk on his latest podcast. Other than that I have no useful info. My wife works with CAD's and ARCINFO for a living (GIS) But does'nt design furniture with it, so has no recomendation. Chris
Thanks, Chris. I will go that site.
Billy B.
If you're just getting started, go with Sketchup. It's free and easy to learn. I spent 6 years using AutoCAD. AutoCAD can be learned quickly but it takes years to be efficient at it. Obviously my AutoCAD experience helped, but Sketchup was intuitive and is capable of doing everything I need.
Check out the drawing attached, this is probably my 4th or 5th drawing that I completed.
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Hi jeff,
Out of couriosity, what do you think about my observations of 2D vs. 3D Cad? Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mike, I think your observations are spot on regarding 2D vs 3D modeling.For inexperienced users, it will be a LONG TIME before they have the skills to do parametric modeling in 3D without formal training. I find it difficult even for myself learn a new CAD system. Sure, I know how the tools work, but you still have to learn the GUI and nuances of the functionality of a different CAD package, and that takes time, even with experience. I can pick it up faster than others, but it still takes an investment of time. But it's worth it. Once you're up to speed, CAD is a heck of a tool and will dramatically reduce mistakes made in the shop and minimize material wasted....and speed up prototyping, especially when going from design to build.Jeff
heres my 2 cents.
I agree with jeff100. Serious cadd work is easier with 2 monitors. if you purchase a program that will do 3d this is a must since there is not enough space on one monitor to cut the necessary views. By trade I am an electrical designer/draftsman and have been doing so for 20 yrs. I have experience in AUTOCADD, CATIA,MICROSTATION, PDS, PDMS. These are expensive programs., and to get their full benefit you will need access to a plotter, a desktop printer won't cut it. It is my opinion that none of these programs are suited for novices, nor woodworking they take an immense time to learn the advanced features, like dimension driven cells, rendering etc. to make the drafting process easier. If all you want to do is draw lines and place text buy the cheapest program available.I think as a whole, the woodworking community should lobby software vendors to create a program that would suit our needs and not cost in the thousands.
Hi, I teach CAD in a Massachusetts H.S. shop. Most of the CAD programs you mentioned will do a great job for you. There is nothing quiet like being able to "build" a project on the computer before going to the shop to help find mistakes within a design. The problem is the time it's going to take you to get fluent with the programs. The programs tend to be BIG and not intuitive. To further exasperate the problem, competing CAD programs have you doing the same functions, such as drawing a circle, in entirely different ways. Making it very difficult for the novice CAD person to just try a few to see how they compare. Also the cost of a CAD program can easily be just shy of $1000.
So to answer your question I would have to recommend Google’s Sketchup. It’s easy to use, comes with some great basic tutorials, you can get more advanced tutorials from the Sketchup web site, and it’s free... If you’re looking for something more “technical” I would recommend Alibre Design, you have to register with the company to down load it, still it’s also free and also has very good tutorials included. Both of these are parametric design programs, that means you “pull the shape” then adjust the size. A much easier way to draw on a computer. Both of them will take some getting use to especially if you accustomed to drawing with pencil and paper. Also your computer will have to be running XP or newer to use either one.
Bob S/Cape Cod
bosava-A minor correction to your last sentence. Sketchup has a Mac version, and I believe Alibre Design does, also.On the Sketchup users forum, there have been complaints about the program not working with the Windows XP successor, Vista. I think that is because Vista drivers are not yet available for some graphics cards.
Also your computer will have to be running XP or newer to use either one.
I used Sketchup on 2000 with no problems. My computer was slow, but it still worked.“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Like almost everyone else I found CAD a very difficult concept to grasp, and after a couple years with TurboCAD I'm still what I consider an unsophisticated user. To help me with the learning process, and share with others my limited understanding, I posted some time ago three "tutorials" using TurboCAD for woodworking drawings. You are welcome to look at any or all of them to try to get some idea of how at least this one CAD program is used for woodworking.
You can find the files by going to http://www.stephanwoodworking.com and clicking the link "Files that may be of interest to woodworkers" at the bottom of the home page.
As pointed out earlier, working in 2D is significantly easier than working in 3D. However, after drawing a table or other project in 3D with all the mortises, et cetera, it is trivial to print out each and every part with detailed dimensions and front, top and end views. Equally valuable, I can print a new set of the drawings if I lose my working copy.
I've been in the computer industry for about as long as you've been a hobbyist woodworker and have been, what I would consider, a hobbyist woodworker for nearly that same amount of time.
During that time I have used all manner of CAD programs including AUTOCAD, Sketchup, etc. None of them seem to inpart the same perspective that I can see when I hand draw my designs. I'm not sure why that is the case.
I start out with a rough sketch, decide on proportions, then transpose it to a hand drawn scaled drawing on graph paper. At this point I'm looking more for proportions and not precision. I've yet to find software that allows me to design a piece. This precess may undergo many iterations till its finally drawn.
I may use CAD programs to layout joinery details as I use them to aid me in determining exact measurements. Many times during this process I find goofs in measurements and that helps a lot.
When all is said and done you still need to make the wood match the computer precise drawing, and therein lies the problem for me. It never seems to work out that way. Also wood moves with seasonal changes and there is NO computer program that can predict that!
Computers and software are great tools, but unfortunately they are not the total solution to woodworking. Each tool has its place and a computer is but one of many. The craftsmen who designed those magnificent furniture pieces of the past didn't have computers to guide them, we do!
Please understand that this diatribe is just my opinion and everyone has one. I have been wrong many times before as have the meterologists. I wish you well in your furniture endeavors.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
The following link will give you many many wood related software items and links, some free and some not.
http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/RSSoftwareConnection.html
The following is a link to an on line wood shrinkage calculator. True that it is not perfect, but what is? It is an interesting little software that gives excellent guidelines.
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=shrinkage
Enjoy, JL
Bob, your point of view is well stated. I appreciate your comments and, believe me, I see very well what you are saying and can fully appreciate your viewpoint.
Your comments regarding drawings, whether computer generated or hand done, I have found to be true in my own efforts. It doesn't take much to get you away from the exact dimensions of the drawing. That, is where I think the skills of the craftsman really come into play.
I may find that I will use CAD drawings much like you say you sometimes do. But, as of now I intend to pursue the learning necessary for a CAD program. I just don't know which one just yet. And, I think the experience will be good for me.
I do appreciate your reply and find your comments thought provoking.
Thank you,
Billy B.
Thanks for your comments. Right now I'm messing around with Sketchup ( http://www.sketchup.com/) as I feel it's about the best I've seen with respect to furniture design. The learning curve isn't all that steep either, but don'r use typical AutoCAD techniques. It's more object oriented.
The more I use it the more I like it. One thing I have found is that you need to adopt a technique of creating objects. If you don't do this, when you place drawing parts near each other, they tend to merge together and this can be a nuisance.
Another suggestion is to go to the WEBsite and run through the tutorials, they're very informative. The best part is it's free and you can by the full blown version which is very reasonably priced.
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
dont forget to look through the library too. There's ton of good stuff there.“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
The leaders in the CAD world for architects and engineers are Microstation and Autocad. I have never used microstation and I doubt you want to invest the dollars to purchase. You can download a fully functional 30d trial version of Autocad LT from their website (http://www.autodesk.com). Downside of A+utocad LT is the cost and maintenance to upkeep if you want to be current. You might want to try this first as this is what most programs try to mimick. I remember my father trying to learn CAD (he too was very computer literate) and he found turbocad much easier. I have tried several of the house type CAD programs and many times have found they lack the accuracy of Autocad because of the drawing methods. Many of the programs that attempt to copy autodesk try to make drawing simplier by using drag/drop routines instead of the use inputting hard dimensions and precise angles desired. I would suggest starting with 2D as we have had many trained draftsman find it difficult to complete drawings in 3D (objects v. lines...). As an aside, we recently purchase a $30k software package for modelling buildings in virtual reality and I am hoping it works like a charm for woodworking projects.
Good luck.
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