Replies

1. 
   northhouguy | Jan 14, 2009 11:25am | #1

   Becoming proficient with a CAD program takes practice.  Also, pick a program and stick with just that one.  Changin' CAD programs ain't like changin' socks...

   Put your drafting tools in a drawer, lock it and have someone hide the key.  When you draw, use your CAD program.  You'll be surprised how quickly you improve once you "walk out on the high wire."

   Stick with it, be patient and you'll soon wonder how you got along all those years laying lead.

   PS I like, (love), CAD because I can put stuff together on the screen after I design it.  That way I know it fits and any problems in the shop are "man made", so to speak.

   Regards,

   Fred

2. 
   Jfrostjr | Jan 14, 2009 05:57pm | #2

   I can empathize. The switch was/is difficult. I use DataCad and am adept at complicated building-design in 2D. (I haven't tackled 3D.) My observation on the switch (Tee Square to CAD) is that the initial drawing takes the same amount of time. But when changes are considered, CAD wins hands down.

   For my shop work, I love CAD for measuring angles, arcs etc. Design is difficult for me. I have to sketch first - but I wouldn't be w/o a CAD program.

   Frosty

   "I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922

3. 
   Dave45 | Jan 14, 2009 06:36pm | #3

   I've been using TC 15 Pro for about three years after using (and sometimes teaching) AutoCAD for ~10 years.

   For the level of use you describe, I would say that TC is probably overkill. You might be better off using Sketchup, or something similar.

   CAD programs are great, but they definitely have steep learning curves and require frequent use to remain profecient. I learned my drafting skills in the early '60's using 2H pencils, T-Squares, and plastic triangles. - lol. Making the transition from pencil and paper drawing was very difficult and -like you - I often went back to paper and pencil just to get something done. These days, however, I'll fire up the 'puter for almost every little sketch.

1. 
   Stig | Jan 15, 2009 06:37pm | #4

   Thanks to all of you.

   <!----><!----> <!---->

   Well, I guess you are right. The best way is to make a choice and stick with it.

   I will go the CAD way, together with a bit of scratch paper for starters.

   My Turbo CAD has a good training guide, 2D & 3D. So, there is no excuse. I simply HAVE to get used to the idea that this isn’t like turning on the TV. It’ll take a bit of work and lots of strong coffee. Wish me luck guys.

    

   Stig.

    

1. 
   newt_4102 | Jan 21, 2009 07:28pm | #5

   Stig,

   I bought TurboCad 12 a year ago and like you, have had a lot of pain trying to learn it. I have had to (from time to time) get away from it for awhile and go back and hit it again. I sharpened my 2H pencils back in the 60's and used "T" squares and slide rules. Of course the older you get, (I think) the harder it is to learn.

   I am determined to learn it and I am still at it. I have also discovered http://www.cadcourse.biz/ and purchased some of their training material. I have watched and watched the videos and every time I pick up more information. The power of CAD with changes using layers is fantastic.

   I tried Sketchup and found it worked odd for me maybe because of having learned drafting in the old days. Younger guys that never had any drafting or drawing experience at all think Sketchup is great.

   Good luck with it and don't give up.

   rlm514

2. 
   Dave45 | Jan 28, 2009 06:10pm | #7

   Stig -I used AutoCad LT for 10 years before switching to TurboCad in '05. I wanted 3D capability but didn't want to pay the big bucks for the full version of AutoCad. IMSI offered a sweet price for folks using other CAD programs, so I took the plunge. It was a major PITA for a few months, but I finally began to get the hang of it - after lots of practice and asking lots of questions on IMSI's users group website.One of the biggest hassles was figuring out how/when/why to manipulate the workplane. Do it right, and making 3D drawings is pretty simple. Do it wrong, however, and it's "WTF IS THIS THING DOING!!!!" - lolNow that I can crank out decent 3D isometric drawings, I need to figure out rendering. Right now, my renderings look like garbage, but I've seen TurboCad renderings that look like photographs. When/If I get another one of those roundtuits, I gotta smarten up. - lol

4. 
   ASK | Jan 28, 2009 05:15pm | #6

   OK, here is my story. I am an architect and have been using a 2D cad program for about 20 years. Originally named Drafix cad and subsequently bought by Autodesk and renamed Quickcad and then was substituted for Autosketch.

   I have tried Autocad, Turbocad, Designcad and a few others all of which are 3D capable and have never had (read spent) the time to fully learn any of these. The reason in my view is complexity. Autosketch, from my point of view, is more intuitive. If you want to draw a line you click here and then move the mouse or you can type in a length and an angle. When you set up the drawing you can set a scale that will fit on the sheet you will print on. You can always change the scale and print on multiple pages. Lining things up to endpoints, midpoints, intersections etc is easy. I also draw everything in a 30° isometric so I can see what it really looks like.

   I use Autosketch exclusively in the office, and also draw everything I do in woodworking on the weekends. My method of drawing is to design, draw all the pieces separately. and then combine pieces to determine what I need for wood. Not just a cut list drawing but how I will cut each piece from the larger pieces.

   Friends often ask "how long did it take you to build that"? My answer is always, 1/2 the time to design, draw, and figure out how to build it and the other 1/2 actually building it.

   Anyone out there who uses Autosketch, Drafix or Quickcad and has a question, feel free.

   ASK

1. 
   RonK | Jan 28, 2009 07:30pm | #8

   I use an older program called Intellicad which is an Autocad clone. I have also taken some Autocad courses and am familiar with the newer versions. The intellicad program works well for me and because I have no use for 3D would serve my needs.

   I find myself usually using a manual drafting table because I like drawing full scale. I know that I can output the drawing from Intellicad (and Autocad) and take it some where to be printed on a large scale device  The process for doing this correctly seems more difficult (at least to me) then learning how to use the cad program in the first place. Any suggestions on which 2D program has the easiest method for getting large format output?

1. 
   SantaFeTom | Jan 28, 2009 10:16pm | #9

   I use a program called VisualCADD from TriTools Partners, http://www.tritools.com. Years ago I used DesignCad, TurboCad and a few others but don't remember much about scales and printing. With VisualCADD, you work in real world units. By this I mean you specify if you are working in inches, feet, meters, etc., and then type in the units. For example, if I was working in fractional inches and I wanted a line 3 3/8" long, I would click on the starting point, move the cursor in the direction I wanted the line to go and type 3 3/8. The only time scale becomes relevant is during printing. I don't know if printing is easiest in VidualCADD but I would say it is pretty simple.

   When printing, there are three choices; fit the whole drawing on the paper, print the current view (what is showing on the screen) and print to scale. In my example of real world units being inches, when printing to scale, there would be a space to specify what 1" of paper is equal to. So if I wanted 1:1 scale, I would type in 1. If I wanted 1:2 scale, I would type in 2. You can then slide the drawing around on an image of the paper to be sure you get what you want on the page when you click the print button.

   The only time I print to scale is when I want a full size drawing. I temporarily enter match lines in the drawing closer together than the paper size, print out the multiple pages by positioning each one on a page, and then tape the multiple pieces of paper together by matching up the match lines. 

1. 
   nortonlike | Jan 28, 2009 11:36pm | #10

   I'm also interested in entering the world of CAD. Early forays have learned me that most have steep learning-curve... But I'm wondering if anyone has opinions about some of the sub $300 programs (claiming "more user-friendly") that specialize in Cabinet design and/or furniture design and that do a very good job of generating material buy lists AND "cut lists". (These are probably most attractive benefits to me -- and can't always tell from sites which do this and which don't).Rockler.com has one new program they're pushing call SKETCHLIST 3D -- wondering about that vs. SKETCHUP...? Anyone tried CabinetCRUNCHER or the others? ...and MAC compatibility would be ideal-- though not essential as I notice few of the CADs out there are.I appreciate any feedback!
   thanks

1. 
   CADDted | Jan 29, 2009 12:00am | #11

   I've worked with CADD for the past 25 Years. I've used probably 5 or 6 different programs in that time. I'm the CADD manager and manage 120 stations. I like Google Sketchup Pro for designing my woodworking projects. not only is it pretty easy to learn but don't cost much. The last point I'd Like to make is that its going to be around a long time. Google isn't going out of business any times soon so the training time you put into learning Sketchup will serve you well for many years.

2. 
   nortonlike | Jan 29, 2009 12:13am | #12

   Thanks caddted--
   good points-- does it have capacity to generate buy and cut lists? I'm reading about it online but can't find that info...

3. 
   CADDted | Jan 29, 2009 12:30am | #13

   I haven't come across anything yet but Skitchup pro is fully customizable so some one will if they haven't already. What I do is after I design my project in 3D, I copy each peace and dimension it. Then i can come up with a cut list.

4. 
   daverichards | Jan 29, 2009 03:10pm | #16

   SketchUp doesn't have native cutlist ability although there is a report generator that can export a CSV file that could be massaged in Excel or other spreadsheet programs to give you those things. There's a plugin available to do cutlists, however.

   You don't need to buy the pro version of SketchUp unless you want to export DXF, DWG, PDFs, animations and a few other file types. The pro version also gets you Layout which is a presentation package that works hand in hand with SketchUp. And, with version 7, the pro version gives you the ability to create dynamic components which you can't do with the free version. As far as drawing though, there is nothing you can do with the pro version that you can't with the free version.

   SketchUp is available for Windows and Mac. The learning curve is not nearly as steep or long as many CAD programs and for woodworkers it is more than capable of doing what you need.

   If you haven't seen it, check out Design. Click. Build. in the Blogs section of FineWoodworking.com

5. 
   nortonlike | Jan 29, 2009 11:00pm | #17

   Many thanks, DAve! Hadn't seen the "design. click. build" blog. looks like a great resource. thanks for that. I'll dig in...

2. 
   RonK | Jan 29, 2009 01:27am | #14

   Thank you for the link. I notice they have an X day free trail so I think I will go that route. I have used the method you describe to stitch together printouts(my laser prints 11X17 so it is a little easier) but my goal is to take it and have it outputted at a place that can handle large format printing. I'm sure the demo will give me my output options. Thanks again for your help.

1. 
   SantaFeTom | Jan 29, 2009 02:22am | #15

   I've been using VisualCADD since release 1.0 back in the early 1990's so let me know if you need any help getting going or have any questions. There must be a way to have a 1 to 1 email exchange without posting our email address here in the forum but I'll have to look into it to be sure. There is also a Visualcadd Yahoo group at http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/visualcadd/ . 

   Because VisualCadd comes with a programming interface, it can be changed, extended, etc. by computer programmers. I've done some minor enhancements but another user has developed a huge set of them called Scalz. One of them is to automatically tile the printout to facilitate the mulit-page, full scale, technique I described. If you decide to keep the VisualCadd, you might check out Scalz at  http://mysite.verizon.net/scalz4vcadd/index.html

   Scalz also has a 30 day trial.

5. 
   dmdnk | Jan 30, 2009 08:27am | #18

   Stig,

   I've been using TurboCAD since it came on floppies.  I've found it very useful, but it does take some time to learn.  Luckily, there is a fantastic users forum to help you along. 

   http://forums.imsisoft.com/forums/index.cfm?CFID=0&CFApp=200&&CFPush=Registration

   There are alot of great folks there who are always willing to help out.

   david

6. 
   Stig | Jan 30, 2009 09:33am | #19

   Thanks to you all regarding CAD programs.

   Here is what happened.

    

   I got an order for a dining table. So, I decided to take a crack at using my TurboCAD program. I wrestled with it, two solid days – lots of coffee and colorful language included. Okay, I had a drawing that looked like a dining table. So what?

   The drawing is on an 8.5 by 11 sheet of paper with other sheets describing small details  like hardware used etc..

    

   Then, I went to the drafting table. Taped a 17” x 22” paper down, looked at the wall clock. It was about one in the afternoon. At 3:15 I had a scaled drawing, including details highlighted in a few places with arrows pointing at 1:1 scale illustration surrounded by a neat circle. I also drew an isometric sketch that I colored with some crayons for effect.

    

   I showed my customer the two set of drawings and asked them which one they preferred. Without hesitation they pointed at the hand made set. My decision is made. I will stay with my drafting table. We are a small shop, myself and my daughter. We turn out 15 to 20 pieces each year. And we are happy with that. I realize that a larger outfit will be better served with a CAD program for a number of reason. But for a small shop like ours it is a bit of an overkill.

    

   Having said that, I really appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge with me

    

   Stig Lundberg

   Furniture Crafters

   Valley Center, CA

   http://www.furniturecrafter.biz           

    

    

1. 
   ASK | Jan 30, 2009 05:14pm | #20

   Stig,

   Don't give up. Get yourself a simplier cad program. Perhaps 2D only or Sketchup

   In your spare time play with it. Draw some real things.

   Eventually you will learn and probably be able to work more quickly.

   ASK

1. 
   daverichards | Jan 30, 2009 05:43pm | #21

   I agree with you, ASK. I think a tool like SketchUp is very useful for giving clients an accurate representation of the thing they are hiring you to build. If used properly, it is easier to make changes to suit the client's wishes. You can also show them the piece in context if that is important.

   If there are elements that will get used on more than a single project, they can be saved to eliminate the need to redraw them later.

   On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with pencil and paper for those who prefer that. And if you're good at doing hand drawn illustrations, that's pretty cool. I'm not that good with a pencil so I appreciate the skill of those who are. Mine look like this. ;)View Image