Can EZ or Festool sub for table saw?
Hi, I am a real novice at woodworking. I’ve built a few storage units, a couple of rabbit hutches, some landscaping terraces, and one built in bookcase/vanity system (of which I am very proud!) for my daughter. Other than the last two items, I made do with a jigsaw, then finally indulged myself and bought a circular saw, then a 10″ mitre saw (couldn’t figure out how to use a mitre box on crown molding). I was so ignorant starting out that I didn’t know Home Depot would rip plywood for you-I did it with the dang jigsaw. I just received a router combo and table for Christmas and am itching to start some projects, but don’t want to hassle with the circular saw for every blasted cut.
My question is, and you will all probably laugh, should I invest in a decent table saw, or can I really convert my trusty circular saw into the equivalent using one of the EZ smart guides or Festool systems? My thinking is that I could use money saved to purchase a jointer. Am I in la la land?
Replies
I was just reading an item on another forum where a person had just replaced a table saw with the EZ Smart System. I've also read other posts where other people have done the same thing. So the answer is a definate yes that the system could work well for you.
I personally added the EZ system a few months back and I am starting to see how it could very well replace my table saw. One big difference to me is there is so little strain with the EZ vs the Table saw. It is a lot easier to put the big board on a table and remove the pieces as you cut them. Moving that big board across the table saw gets to be work.
Dino recently added the "repeaters" to his system. With it you can do repeat cuts in any width up to 26" without measuring.
Also the EZ Smart system is much more than just a guided saw system. Recently Dino added a in line boring system and a square for cross cutting. The router system is great for anything from dados and flutes to mortices and tendons.
Go to the EZ smart site http://www.eurekazone.com/ and spend a little time looking and reading. Be sure to check out "Dino's Gallery"
No, not at all. I've built several cabinets lately without firing up the table saw. I've found that, with a few simple jigs, the EZ guide is faster than a table saw for carcass construction, especially when I'm working alone. As you are developing your skills you will also be far safer with a guide system than a table saw. Those table saws can play rough until you figure out their temperament.
I do have to give my table saw one advantage. A dado blade on a table saw still whips the router pretty soundly for cutting grooves in a panel in a hurry. I'll figure a way around that one of these days, then I will probably clear my table saw floorspace to make room for a decent dust collector. (cough, cough)
Thanks to you both for your input. I suppose I have nothing to lose by trying it out first, then if feel I need table saw, I can go ahead and purchase down the line. Intuitively, the EZ guide just makes so much sense. Have either of you used it as a jointer?
Sorry, that's a trick I haven't tried yet. The EZ cuts are straight and clean enough that I rarely need a jointer. When I do, the hand plane still gets the nod.
I will say that you can find a way to use just about any tool in the shop with the guide rail. Don't tell Dino, but I've even used my left blade saw to cut the crown out of a 12' - 2x12 with it. :-)>
Actually you are at an advantage by not having owned a table saw. You don't have to reprogram your brain.
The EZ smart using a circular saw gives a cut that I think is good enough for edge gluing. Dino has also mounted a hand held planer on the router kit. This would be great for edge jointing.
Ok, so I've never used the Festool system, but I can't imagine trying to do a dry assembly on top of one....;-)
Well, the full Festool system includes a table, that will double as an assembly table. EZ has a table also.
I don't own one, but the Festool seems very useful for panel materials used in cabinet construction, but it strikes me that I would still need a table saw for the little things that often are cut with my cut off box.
If I only made cabinets Festool or EZ might replace my Unisaw. If I made cabinets for a living, however, I would want a serious saw with a full sized sliding table, despite the heavy price tag. It seems to me that amateurs seldom only make cabinets, if nothing else there are too many "honey do's" for that.
You mentioned the little things that you cut in your cutoff box - The repeaters in the EZ smart system can handle this. Cuts on very small pieces are possible as well as making very thin cuts. In fact, I can make cuts with the ez that I wouldn't attempt on a table saw.
You mentioned the tables for the two systems. The Festool MFT is designed for cutting, clamping, etc. If memory serves me correctly, the largest MFT is 28" x 45". To me that isn't large enough to process a panel on. Some people buy two or more MFT's and fasten them together to get a larger work areas.
The EZ smart table is great for cutting panels. It starts out as 2' x 4' but expands to support a 5' x 10' panel. It's design allows easy clamping. A lot of people like to use them for glue-ups and finishing work. It is one of those tools that looks to simple to perform so well.
I've used both an excaliber sliding table and a horizontal panel saw to process panels. I find that using the EZ Smart with a square is much easier and takes less time. I only have to move that big board once and don't have to keep pushing it back and forth over the table saw.
I don't jump in too often lately, been renovating a house. But...I don't see how a guided circular saw can be faster than a table saw especially with a sliding table. I'm thinking back to processing panels with a standard cabinet saw with a 52" fence.It seems like there are more motions to resetting everything with a sawguide. I think if it was a faster system you would see a lot more of this being utilized in production shops. The cost of the tooling is certainly less than an industrial table saw setup.That being said if you have the time or maybe if you are doing MDF then a sawguide would certainly get the work done. Accuracy is there with the new setups.Wish someone (Dino?) would post some video of processing a 4x8 sheet for a cabinet job with a sawguide to show how fast this system can be.
6 months ago I would have been singing the same song you are. To me the big secret is using a square. Mine is fitted with a 4' fence and a flip stop. That allows me to set the stop and do several cuts without changing the settings.
Here is the real secret. With the plywood laying on a table (I use the smart table), you cut several pieces and don't have to move the board. You just reposition the square. It takes no more time to set the stop or mark than it would for a table saw. The table saw or sliding table requires more physical strength and involves a lot of wasted motion.
Everything normal and logical tells me your thought that a table saw would be faster should be correct. In practical application it just doesn't work that way. I have 2 unisaws and a horizontal panel saw but I use my EZ Smart more and more. In fact the horizontal panel saw is looking for a good home.
Sounds pretty good.I wasn't trying to pick a fight, but realize I'm very used to how I was trained to work. That muscle memory thing.Could you post picks of your rig? I've waffled on the sawguide thing because I have a less than ideal setup. A PC left blade saw and a Penn State guide. I have used this but compared to a table saw with an adequate fence it was way slower.The saw is heavy once the carriage is attached and the ergonomics of the reach involved with certain cuts never has felt too comfortable. Also the PC saw doesn't have a blade brake so the spin down time is an issue. One reason the Festool plunge is so attractive, that the blade disappears when not doing its thing. I know a good saw guide system would be faster, but have never thought it would be so much faster that it would tie a table or panel saw in terms of speed.But I do see the value of not having to move the material as much especially when working long days. So getting close in terms of time might be good enough. Could help a person stay in the "sweet spot" in regards to the daily productivity curve.Thanks.
I wasn't trying to pick a fight, but realize I'm very used to how I was trained to work. That muscle memory thing.
This issue of comfort with the way we have learned and been successful has been running through the threads about saw guides vs table saws, EZ Smart vs Festool, etc. Thank you for bringing out that fact and the appearance of picking a fight. If you look through previous discussions you will find stronger emotional reactions than yours. In fact some of the discussions have become downright "ugly". (As we say in the south)
I've also noticed how many contributors have experience with only one of the systems they are comparing. I believe it is time for a reputable woodworking and/or building magazine to review the guides now on the market and compare their features. I would also like to see articles illustrating typical woodworking and building uses.
Of course one thing holding those articles back is the status quo for editors and writers. But I believe there is hope for them too. They can't really think we need one more article on the best router table or work bench etc, etc, etc.
Let me see what I can find photo wise. I'm recovering from surgery and not in the position to come up with new ones now.
I know a good saw guide system would be faster, but have never thought it would be so much faster that it would tie a table or panel saw in terms of speed.
My vote goes to the Smart Table. I think the secret to the EZ system is the table.
When I cut 4x8 panels, the table gives me the extra space to "park" the guide with the saw without the lifting and bending down to reach for the saw and the guide.
Another ez smart feature is the smart clamps. For the few times that I use them, they stay on the guide rail.(spring loaded)
The entire system was designed to eliminate unnecessary steps and wasted motion.
I will post some pictures from my set up one of this days.
Until then I have to go back to the ez photo gallery.
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David
Edited 1/7/2006 8:29 pm ET by davidwood
I need to take some pictures of the simple "Repeater" jig I came up with for processing panels wider than the guide and a little too long for me to be comfortable using a square such as ripping a panel into 11 1/4"x 8'-0" long strips to make upper cabinet ends from. Before Dino came up with a superior solution with the EZ Repeaters I rigged a way to make repeat cuts on a panel that worked pretty well for me.
All it takes is a couple of 32 TPI all thread rods sized to fit in the anti-chip edge guide slot. (I don't remember what size that was off the top of my head) Make them slightly longer than your widest cut. Grind the flats on a nut, sized to fit the all thread rod, so the nut can be slipped into the anti-chip insert slot on the back side of the guide opposite the cut. Attach the all thread perpendicular to the guide rail by slipping the nuts into the t-slot, running the all thread through the nuts and cinching it up tight against the back edge of the slot. What you have effectively created is a couple of long T-Bolts sticking out of the back of the guide that you can now attach a fence to.
To make the fence, drill a hole at each end of a 36" long aluminum L-channel and attached it to the opposite ends of the all thread rods with a couple of lock nuts. Adjust the L-Channel fence to the correct width, throw a panel up on top of the table and pull the guide into place, letting the fence catch the edge of the panel. Rip, slide the guide over to catch the fresh edge, rip again, slide, rip, slide, rip... etc.
It's slow going adjusting the fence but you can sure make some sawdust once it's set. One turn of the nut on a 32 TPI bolt moves the fence 1/32" so precise adjustments are also pretty easy.
There are places where a sliding crosscut sled, on a monster saw, with plenty of floor space all around it, would probably be a bit faster, but with a little planning and ingenuity you can really rock with the guide system anywhere you can find space to get your panel horizontal with enough room to stand next to it. I'm looking forward to putting the EZ Repeaters through the paces when it gets here. I have a feeling it will make my little repeater rig look pretty amature but hey, whatever works right?
67400.29
I think the original question was answered by Billy at breaktime.
Can EZ or Festool sub for table saw?
The ez can.
David.
I lay a solid core door on top of my EZ Smart table for dry runs and glue ups. It's easier than digging my assembly table out from under that pile of stuff that will go in the cabinets I'm building if I ever get them done. <G>
My question is, and you will all probably laugh, should I invest in a decent table saw, or can I really convert my trusty circular saw into the equivalent using one of the EZ smart guides or Festool systems? My thinking is that I could use money saved to purchase a jointer. Am I in la la land?
No yet.
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David
Carlo,
To tell the truth, for those of us that have table saws, it's difficult to answer your question because, in general, we don't own the EZ saw. I've only seen the EZ system or Festool working on plywood...and I haven't bought a piece of plywood in over a year for a project. Hardwood s generally are between 4-8" wide and they are milled into smaller pieces..some are 1/4" strips..can that be done be the EZ saw? Often legs will have a double or triple taper..can that be done? I really don't know, I'm asking. I you want to put a cove on a piece of stock.. well, you see where I'm going.
It's very difficult to get into this hobby cheaply. In many cases the hand tools cost more than the power equipment. You probably have already seen that the bits for the router will exceed the equipment cost. It's best to take a little time and develop a real budget based on what you plan to build.
Hardwood s generally are between 4-8" wide and they are milled into smaller pieces..some are 1/4" strips..can that be done be the EZ saw?
The narrowest piece that you can cut without even holding it is 1/8"
Use the repeaters with the same clamping system and you never have to measure again.
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Often legs will have a double or triple taper..can that be done?
http://eurekazone.com/images/gallery/fillers.html
Tapered-narrow and any way you position the wood.
I really don't know, I'm asking. I you want to put a cove on a piece of stock.. well, you see where I'm going.
...Straight to the ez smart and Dino's " Dead Wood Concept".
David.
Edited 1/5/2006 11:34 am ET by davidwood
Excellent points - The table saw has been around for a while and jigs are readily available. The EZ smart is a new enough concept that some solutions are definitely going to take a little more development. That's one of the advantages to having Dino just a phone call or e-mail away. If you can't figure it out yourself, Dino will almost certainly find a way... I dare say he thrives on it.
To your particulars - Routed coves are no problem with the EZ, but a large cove, with a saw blade, using the EZ Smart... Hmmm, interesting challenge. Just like a table saw, it would take a custom made jig but you would cant the saw instead of the material. I'm certain it could be done with a little head scratching. You would only be limited by the size of the blade, your imagination and possibly your nerve.
The EZ base has two tracks on the bottom, a tongue on top and a smaller T-track on each side for the anti-chip inserts. You can pretty much figure a way to attach just about anything to one of these babies. Coming up with a workable jig or fixture is part of the fun. Of course, if you are making money with your tools, production is even more fun. Jig rigging only pays once you get back to cutting wood.
For things like tapered cuts on a leg - no jig, no sweat. That's where the EZ Smart really excels.
Am I in la la land?
Me too but for different reasons.. I'll call it a 'skill' saw.. Gets 'close' with a years of experience hand OR a guide of some type..
I would think you will never get as close as a good TS.. BUT workable!
Cut.. Shootin' board and a good plane get it SQUARE..
Some of those guides ya talkin' about cost almost as much as TS!
"I would think you will never get as close as a good TS.. BUT workable!"
I dare say the level of precision I've been able to achive with the guide is superior to what I can do with my table saw but in fairness, it's an "affordable" contractor's saw, not a cabinet saw. I have the 26" repeater attachments on order. I suspect it will make my efforts at guide precision a little EZ'er.
The trick, like any fine woodworking tool, is to tune the saw to cut square and true. That's easy enough to do with a secondary base that can be tweaked to perfect blade alignment when you install it. Most circular saws also have a little tweak screw for fine tuning the bevel angle. Today's "skil-saws" take a lot less skill than yesterday's rudamentary wood hackers to get a sweet cut with impressive precision.
"Cut.. Shootin' board and a good plane get it SQUARE.."
I heard that! I'm learning... In reality, precision is going to come down to the tune-up of the instrument and the wisdom in the noggin' that's controlling the finger on the trigger no matter what tool is spinning the blade. I find that I'm a little better with the guide than a table saw but I'm hardly ready to challenge the likes of Krenov, and his hand tools, with either instrument. Some times the "plane" old hand worked solution beats even the "EZ" one hands down. The EZ guide does make a sweet shooting board edge though. <G>
I just thought of a precision trick I've used that is worth sharing. I have a Bosh precision edge guide for my router that I love for making hairline adjustments. I've found it handy for tweaking fences and guides on other equipment to a precise measurement as well.
You can lightly clamp and cut the stock close with the EZ edge guide. While the stock is still clamped, check it with a caliper to see how much more you need to take off. Then just clamp the Bosh router edge guide to the EZ edge guide, with the Bosh fence against the stock, and roll the adjustment dial for 1/64" increment adjustments. The light clamping pressure lets the stock move but holds the adjustment well. When you've pushed the stock over the correct amount just flip the guide and shave it with the CS one more time.
I'm telling you, NASA could build furniture to their specs with this edge guide. Of course, they might have to use something more dimensionally stable than wood to hold those tolerances, but even with wood, it will be dead on for at least a few minutes after the blade stops spinning.
Like you, I'm also an amateur woodworker who's trying to get by without a tablesaw. Sometimes I wonder: Can you actually be a woodworker without a tablesaw?
Anyway, having completed a half dozen decent projects in the past year using a Porter Cable circular saw as my primary cutting tool, I can pass on this one great epiphany I recently had.
All the tips/jigs for cutting straight with a circular saw use some kind of straight edge fence on the left of the saw (for me that's 5" left of the blade). These jigs never gave me acceptable straight cuts. On a whim, I set up a straight edge/clamp as a fence on the right side of my circular saw (1.5" right of the blade). AMAZING!! My cuts are straight, no matter how long I'm ripping.
This concept is also true for hand-held routing using an edge guide. Never pull the router toward the guide. Rather, push the router toward the guide to ensure straight cuts (i.e. dados). Just like the circular saw, it is best to push against your guide (right side) rather than pull against the guide (left side).
I can't stess enough what a difference this has made for me in terms of accuracy. More than ever before, I'm convinced I can get by without a table saw as a woodworking hobbyist. Now if I had to make a buck from woodworking, the first thing I'd do is but the TS.
- Bill
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