Hi Everyone,
I’ve recently got a commission to build a Chinese wedding bed/opium bed. These beds are from the seventeen and eighteen hundreds. (Please see picks below for example) these beds have three sides, sometimes a wood canopy and tend to be very elaborate but in this case I’m simplifying the design. My question is: the customer has asked for poplar (my choice would be mahogany) to match other pieces and I’m not sure of the structural strength for the front rails, they will be 1”x4”x67” (never used it in this manner) it will have a strip on the back of the rail of 1”x2”x67” that will support a hard surface where a futon like mattress sits. Thanks in advance for any advise and, or suggestions.
RickL,
P.S. I have about four months to complete it, I’m just in the planning stages.
Edited 2/13/2003 12:11:57 PM ET by R!CKL
Replies
According to the Forest Products Laboratory Wood Handbook, Ch. 4, pdf available at
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
the modulus of elasticity for yellow poplar (Liriodendron tulipfera) is 6% higher than for mahogany (Swietiana macrophylla). Poplar's compression strength parallel to the grain is 82% of mahogany's, and it's shear strength parallel to the grain is 93% of mahogany's.
Strengthwise, the poplar looks fine to me. Of course the numbers will be different if you're using some other poplar.
Uncle Dunc,
Thanks for the info and I also think it will be ok to use, but I don’t believe it would be a durable piece. I’m still going to try to convince the customer to select a different type of wood.
Thanks again,
RickL
the customer has asked for poplar (my choice would be mahogany) to match other pieces
I don't get it. Poplar doesn't look anything at all like mahogany.
?
The way I read it, Rick's choice for that design would be mahogany, but the customer has other poplar pieces and wants the bed to match them.
Both the pics shoe dark-colored pieces, though, and perhpas my ignorance is showing, but i haven't seen a lot of Asian furniture in poplar. In fact, i don't think of poplar except in term of drawers sides and trim, as it's so soft, i wouldn't do furniture out of it. I used some poplar in a table in which i wanted green-colored wood, but it was a bad idea--dings show up very easily in it. I also wouldn't trust the joints to take a lot of stress, as soft as the wood is. I know there are lots of woods that qualify for the "poplar" label, but i have in mind the stuff available in most lumberyards, not exotica.
Seemed odd to me too. But if I don't read it that way, it doesn't make any sense at all, and I prefer to believe the posters here are trying to make sense. :) Sort of the "I can't believe what I just heard, so he must have said something else" effect.
Hi Splintie,
“I don't get it. Poplar doesn't look anything at all like mahogany.”
Of course poplar does not look anything like mahogany, what I wanted to say was that mahogany and other tropical hard woods are my choice and the preferred woods for this type of furniture.
“Both the pics shoe dark-colored pieces, though, and perhaps my ignorance is showing, but i haven't seen a lot of Asian furniture in poplar.”
You’re right traditionally Asian pieces are dark, because the woods of choice are teak, mahogany and a couple of other tropical species. The exception in bamboo but it was not that common for quality pieces in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds.
Also the customer does not currently have any Asian pieces in this room except for some tapestry, boxes and artwork. The furniture is a mix of various styles from metal to small pieces in light color woods (primarily poplar). Her choice for this piece was simply because she liked the look. Now I can’t understand why she won’t put a darker piece in this room considering she has such a mix including a couple of black side tables, but what do I know I’m just a woodworker and she’s an interior decorator, oops! I meant interior designer, LOL.
Sorry for the confusion, sometimes I type and don’t seem to put down complete thoughts J. Anyway I’m going to suggest a different species of wood to her, like maple (it is a lightwood) if anybody has other suggestions I thank you in advance.
RickL
Edited 2/14/2003 12:45:46 PM ET by R!CKL
Rick, yellow poplar should have adequate strength properties, one of the soft maples would function even better and still yield a similar look...and mahogany would produce a much more impressive end result...
...But I think you are running rough shod over the more important issue here, which is: The customer is always right (myth though that might be)...and yours is not to reason why.
I think you should give the lady what she wants.
Edited 2/14/2003 10:00:58 AM ET by Jon Arno
Hi Jon,
Do you have time to help us in the following thread?
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=10568.1
Thanks!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Rick, I just read your above post to Splintie and, being as it looks like you are going to put the rush on this customer to change her choice of wood to maple anyway, I'll offer some possible ammunition.
Maple is very traditional in Chinese cabinet making, especially for utilitarian pieces. The Chinese are blessed with maples (at least they were, back when they had forests.) Of the 125 or so species of maples worldwide, about two thirds of them are native to China. The other major family of timbers they often tapped were the quassias; relatives of Ailanthus (tree-of-heaven) and these also tend to be blonde woods, except with a fine ring-porous (ash-like) figure...but that's another story.
The typically dark appearance of 18th and 19th century Chinese furniture doesn't result so much from the natural color or eventual patina of the woods they used, but more from their finishing techniques (sumac sap lacquer process.) These dark finishes were very laborous to apply and their presence on antique Chinese furniture still conveys the correct image for this style; one of great wealth and quality.
...So, if she really wants an authentic 19th century opium bed that looks like it was stripped and shellacked by some 20th century do-it-yourselfer...then maple is definitely the way to go...But Rick, it really is her call. After all, she's the designer and that trumps two centuries of tradition or any other irrefutable logic you might offer. Having worked with a few designers myself, handling it any other way just isn't good for business.
Jon Thanks for the ammunition. My concern is that by building a piece with materials that are more suitable as Splintie put-it “for drawers sides and trim” it will lower my standards of construction and I like my pieces to be around for a while, well you know what I mean.
Is the customer always right, absolutely, positively, probably not, but if you want a paycheck I guess they are. Anyway I’m going to give it a shot and see what she says. She did select me because I quote “she likes my design style and the quality of my work”. Personally I think she’s trying to sweet talk me into a better price?? LOL
Wish me luck.
RickL
Personally I think she’s trying to sweet talk me into a better price??
I was wondering about that, but didn't want to suggest it. I had a design nailed down with drawings, wood approved, and a price quote last week. At the last minute, they wanted to change it to a wenge piece. I said i would be delighted to do that, for a 25% mark-up. Well, the bubinga would be OK after all, they decided.
I don't go with the customer always being right--well, not since i had a house without a mortgage. <G> In about year two of my business, i added a back on a bookcase--after being told by the customer she didn't want one--by screwing a piece of doorskin on it, as she didn't want to spend money to have me rabbet it in. Then, on this otherwise well-proportioned bookcase, she had me add a cube on one side of it. This was after the thing was completed. I did it bec i was hungry and it's haunted me ever since. Resist the interior dictator!
I've found most interior decorators are full of it. Repeatedly, I've had to have them sit down and give me the measurements (usually they tell me what they want, i.e. the name, the appliance, etc., and I get the measurements off of the Web.) Most of them don't have a life. This takes a lot of patience, which sometmes I run short on. Oh well.
Thanks for the advice. I usually don’t work with “ interior dictators” I’ve had my full of them when I was working with my fathers (a general contractor) many years ago. I prefer to do my own thing, working with someone else’s ideas and trying to build with someone looking over your shoulder is not quite for me. I usually avoid it except when I’m hungry or is a referral. I do spell it out when it comes to additions, changes, etc. and make sure they know their check book better be on hand if they want to talk to me about any deviations from the original contract. As for the customer always being right, I think most don’t know what they want, that’s why they hire interior decorators. I’ve learned to be very service oriented and do a lot of hand holding as I guide them in the right direction and in turn I’ve ended up with some good customers that give me a lot of creative freedom. I’ve been lucky so far.
Thanks again,
RickL
Rick,
I think you don't want to do that in poplar. Isn't poplar primarily for paint grade stuff?
jdg
I remember another recent thread where the customer was not happy with the finished product, some sort of entertainment center, and wanted to back out on the deal because they did not like the final color... (I don't remember the final outcome). If that is what the designer wants, be sure to get a hefty deposit and the understanding that is built to HER specs and MUST be paid for in full at the completion. Perhaps that will help her with the decision to go with poplar.
SawdustSteve
I always ask for a 50% non-refundable deposit and balance upon completion prior to delivery. So far so good no real problem, I guess I’ve been lucky. Also when working with interior designers I always ask that the customer (homeowner) be involve since they will be the ones that will end up with the final product and since I’m building a custom piece just for them.
RickL
I would definitely suggest another material. My experience with poplar is that it is to soft to withstand the pressures of weight on joinery over extended periods of time. It is also very prone to marring as it is so soft. I'd definitely go with maple (preferably hard) as the look can be achieved with finishes and the hard maple probably has the strength for the the joints. I also think your rail size is skimpy.
Good luck.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled