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Replies
There is no explanation! That same seller has sold many sets of the same LN scraper in the past few months. I guess people think that because it is on Ebay it is a deal. Not!
I don't see any controversy here. There are people competitively bidding on these scrapers, so somebody thinks they ARE a good deal.
We don't know the story on the bidders. Maybe they're shut-ins that need to have UPS come to their door. Maybe they live in New Deal, Texas and the nearest Woodcraft is a half-day drive away.
Paying these prices may be cheap to some, expensive for others.
"She wrote a long letter, on a short piece of paper." Traveling Wilburys
UPS will come to the door regaardless if the package comes from Ebay, Woodcraft or LN. I don't care how much they pay, it just seems that so many people bid on Ebay items without knowing the retail cost. I buy from Ebay a bit and I do a bit of research before I bid on an unknown, to me, item. That just seems like a common sense thing to do.
It's about like the McDonald's commercial currently running on TV. 2 guys are bragging about the deals they got on their clothes, shoes and haircuts. The female at a desk interrupts their bragging and says "double cheeseburger, $1". One of the guys bids $2 for her sandwich and the other counters with $3. They are a buck at McD's and they are willing to pays 2 or 3 times the price.
The price is good for the seller but the buyer can do better. :)
Wingdoctor,
You pointed out that the two boys were willing to pay $2 or $3 to the good looking girl for a $1 sandwich. Of course, before I was married, I would have done the same thing. The girl on that ad is quite good looking. Shelling out a few bucks as an entre to meeting her would be well worth it. This has nothing to do with the cost of hamburgs. This gets down to what life is all about, and it ain't about "burgers". Are you really old? :-)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That's just somebody trying to "break-even" after making a poor decision would be my guess?? By the time he ships it again, pays ebay - he might have 15.00??
Either way, somebody is coming up short.
Its just a shame that people think they have to spend so much money to get something good. In many cases its true but lots of dishonest people take advantage of inexperienced folks.
I could turn the table to the source but I'm afraid of the legions of happy and loyal LN customers out there that would twist my neck. I have some reservations about a 600.00 shaving horse. That's just too much. People pay so what can you say?
Dan:"In many cases its true but lots of dishonest people take advantage of inexperienced folks."Nothing dishonest going on in the example given. This is a classic arbitrage opportunity, i.e., different prices for the same good in different markets. Buy in the cheap market and sell in the expensive, and if transaction costs are low enough, end up with a profit.Arbitrage opportunities exist because of an asymmetry of information and for that reason tend to close as people pile in.The price differential between L-N and e-Bay has been commented on a number of times in Knots and with the necessary information a mouse-click away, it shouldn't exist! Before I buy anything on e-bay, I make sure I know the "street price".Regards,Hastings
Hastings
Can't argue that one here. I'm just a bit uneasy with cases like that. I understand doing your research. Your point is well taken.
dan
"???????? WHAT ARE PEOPLE THINKING ?????????????//" The aren't thinking, therein lies the problem. I was rather surprised to see that all of the bidders are quite experienced eBayers, with feedback points anywhere from 75 (1 bidder) to well over 200 (all the rest).
Obviously, the two top bidders didn't bother to look up the item online to find out the new retail price. The seller, who is a turner BTW, may be just as surprised as the rest of us, though I see he hypes the LN tenon saw quite a bit, for sale in this listing. It'll be interesting to see how much he gets for that (retails for $155).
I saw the saw also. Looks like he left it outside and it got wet/rusted and then he cleaned it with steel wool. He will probably get $175 for it.
The thing that really ticks me off is look at the figure in the handle. Every saw I have bought from LN has a plain maple handle that looks like cr@p.
Lee
Lee,
I just saw the thread you started.
I have written about this, with regard to Lie Nielsen for a long time. Nothing new here.
Every once in a while, get on Ebay, and type in "Lie Nielsen" and then select "Completed items" and check out what stuff has sold for in the last few weeks.
THIS IS AN INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY!!!
Don't knock it.
Don't let anyone stop it.
Foster it.
This is great stuff.
Look for other brands that have the same effect on people. I have found a few.
For example, Pfeil "Swiss Made" gouges go for almost full price even after five or ten years. It is incredible
Then look in other categories. There is a brand of furniture, which is some of the most expensive I have ever seen. The brand is "Karges". They make BIG, beautiful, showy stuff for mansions and consulates. Look up "Karges" on EBAY, and you will see furniture that has been made in the past few years going for incredible amounts.
Someone, I believe it might have been Hastings, brought up the concept of arbitrage. He hit the nail smack on the head.
My only fear is that this opportunity will go away before I can take full advantage of it.
I have written to people who have bought LN tools on EBay for more than LN sells them for, and the answers are often the same. "Oh well, I should have looked around."
Never look a gift horse in the mouth. :-)
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have written to people who have bought LN tools on EBay for more than LN sells them for, and the answers are often the same. "Oh well, I should have looked around."
I made the mistake a few years back... but for items much less accesible than Lie Nielsen. It's kind of a poor excuse, since Lie Nielsen has a web site...
It seems to me in one of the prior discussion that for some people there was a S&H cost difference, and it worked out in favour of e-bay.
One of the great mystery in life along with life insurance, electricity and woman. Although it makes me think I should sell all of my LN stuff and by new ones then take my wife out to a nice dinner with the difference:)
Troy
For domestic purchasers it just means they don't do their homework.
There used to be a guy on ebay selling Martin and Taylor guitars. In his listing for Baby Taylors, he stated a price they sold for retail in his store, and gave a link to his website, where they were listed for that. People bid more than his price on the website.
I bid on a Lee Valley plane, the top five bidders all bid more than retail, the winning bid was about $75 over retail. There was an incomplete Lee Valley shelf hole jig. I bid 80% of the cost of the guide rails for the 32-mm system, because I wanted the inch rails that come only in the shelf hole set. Again, the winning bid was more than new retail, and the kit wasn't complete.
One of our foreign friends, (Lataxe, I think), explained that if he orders a new LN plane or buys it from an authorized vendor on his side of the pond he has to pay a huge tax, but if he buys a "used" item on ebay he doesn't. Thus even if he pays more than retail on ebay, he saves money.
But mostly, it is just that there are a lot of idiots out there.
So have you gotten a 32 mm jig yet?
Yes, I have had the 32-mm system for a couple of years now. It works great. I wish I could find some better reference material on how the 32-mm / Euro system works, but I think I have it figured out, and now just need to practice with it more.
Final price: $32.55
Ha Ha Ha! Thanks Matt, I forgot to check back in and see what it ended at. I may put my set up as well, with Christmas around the corner - who couldn't use a little extra cash?
Cheers,
Lee
I've always bought in to the idea that the reason for the high trade prices was due to foreign buyers avoiding taxes with used goods. This transaction leads me to believe that the group is correct: many people just don't know what things cost. That's a pretty big premium.
I wonder if the buyer even knows what scrapers are for...
EDIT: I just went to the bid history and ALL the bidders were from the US.
Edited 10/1/2007 5:02 pm by Buster2000
I'm watching a pair of LN block planes for grins because of this thread. The new 60 1/2 is already over $100, and the 103 is at $57, I think. Still a few days to go on both. I don't know why, but this LN phenomenon is fascinating to me. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Mel mentions the phenomena all the time when the discussion pop up on what tool to buy. Most of the Lie Nielsen tools that have sold in recent weeks have gone below new price... but barely and when you click on the winners most are from the US.
I don't think it's limited to Lie-Nielsen. Old hand planes go for more than triple than what I would pay locally... and I don't live in an area where used tools are cheap.
Buster
Where are you? I'm in Houston, and I don't have time to hit flea markets and tool swaps, and I'm not even sure what's around here for tools. I am a very selective eBayer. I bought a new Starrett #20 engineers square 1.5" long for $35. New from Starrett they are $72, so I got a good deal. I've seen used ones go for around $60 before. I think you are correct in that it is not limited to LN, but it's a bit puzzling and funny why a used/new LN tool will sell so well on eBay. Human beings can be strange creatures. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Calgary, Canada. I have a few friends that live down in Houston, working in oil service companies. I was down there in 2001, much to hot for my tastes...
I consider myself a selective e-bayer now as well. My initial attempts were huge distasters. So now I only buy if I know the original price, or at least know what I can buy it for locally. Even then I rarely go over 75% if the original price (including shipping). It makes me and the wife happier.
I agree the Lie Nielsen thing is very puzzling. Considering it's a very fast google search away to find the company website and it's prices. Woodcraft sells the planes as well don't they?
Woodcraft sells them as do several other internet dealers. FineToolJournal.com sells them for a discount! I bought my LN block plane for $135 and free shipping. It took two weeks to get here, but I wasn't in a hurry. My wife and I were planning a Thanksgiving trip to Calgary when we were informed it would be very cold--she doesn't tolerate the cold well, so we decided to wait till next summer. I've got several friends in the "awl biddness" who travel frequently to Calgary. They tell me it's wonderful up there. And for what it's worth, it's too hot down here for us natives! I'm looking forward to cooler weather. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Our Thanksgiving or yours? Ours is next weekend, and it shouldn't be too bad. But November is a toss up, it was below -20C last year through most of the month. Calgary's temperature isn't too bad, we're moderated by the winds off the mountains. I've seen it jump 15C in an hour. That's nice in the middle of winter.
Ours. I have a friend who grew up in Alberta, and he told me how cold it would probably be in late November. I'd like to experience a full Alberta winter just once so I would know what it's like. My wife prefers the winters here, if you can call it that. We lived in far NE Texas for 5 years and loved the climate there. Nice change of seasons. Here we have 9 months of summer followed by three months of hell. BTW, the 103 sold for $87 US today, so the buyer got a small savings. The 60 1/2 is up to $125 with 14 hours left. No bargain now at all considering finetooljournal.com's price. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Buster,
The Lie Nielsen thing on EBay really interests me, but it is only an intellectual interest. I can buy Lie Nielsen stuff at Woodcraft with my employee discount at a lot less than I can on EBay. You mentioned the European Value Added Tax, and that most of the recent buyers seem to be Americans. Yup. I noticed that too. There are only two theories which fit the data.
1) Most of the American buyers don't check around to see where they can get the best price, or what the retail price is.
I know it has been the case in some instances because I have written to folks who paid more than retail and asked why. BUT not everyone can be that out of touch with reality.2) (and this theory is comical) I have heard a rumor that Lie Nielsen is the one who buys all of the Lie Nielsen stuff on EBay. They do it in order to convince people that their products hold their value.
Ain't that a hoot?
Who knows what is actually going on.I don't keep track of old tools on EBay. You know more about that than I do. But I check other brands of woodworking tools on EBay, and there is one more that almost always sells at close to retail, even for older tools, and that is Pfeil. Their carving gouges and other tools really hold their value on EBay. Then again, I get my Pfeil carving tools at Woodcraft at about half price, so I don't buy much of anything on EBay. Go to EBay and type in "Pfeil Swiss Made" and look at the prices of completed items.I haven't found any other brands like Lie Nielsen and Pfeil. I would have guessed that Lee Valley planes would hold their value on EBay, just like LN, but I don't see it. I cant understand it. They have the quality. If you ever learn more about this phenomena, please let me know. Until then, I recommend that all woodworkers get a part time job at Woodcraft, and take advantage of the incredible discounts. If they cant do that, the next best thing to do is to buy LN tools at full price, use them for as long as you want, and then sell them on EBay for almost what you paid. Let me know if you agree, or if you have other ideas on this.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello Mel:"2) (and this theory is comical) I have heard a rumor that Lie Nielsen is the one who buys all of the Lie Nielsen stuff on EBay. They do it in order to convince people that their products hold their value.
Ain't that a hoot?
Who knows what is actually going on."Not really so comical. In financial markets*, it is not uncommon for issuers of securities to offer secondary market support, i.e., buying bonds in order to support the market price. I don't think L-N is doing it either, but it is a logical activity.Regards,Hastings*It's been some time since I've been involved in the securities markets, but in the Eurobond market, this sort of thing used happened routinely.
Hastings,
You, as usual, made some good points.
I guess that things which are comical can also be real. I have always been serious in my advice that woodworkers can't go wrong buying and using Lie Nielsen tools, because the investment is highly liquid, and never decreases in value (very much). If I could buy stocks which are highly liquid and don't go down in value, I'd buy them, too.You are now my official investment adviser.
Did you see what the markets did yesterday? EEEEEHHHAAAAA!MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel:"You are now my official investment adviser."Glad that your tongue is firmly planted in cheek!There are two quotes that I like about the investment industry:"Where are the customers' yachts" The title of a book first published in 1940 and again in 1955 and again in 1995."Wall Street is a voting machine not a weighing machine" Benjamin Graham coined this about the short term behavior of the markets.My opinion is to get low expense ratio index funds and make sure that your overall asset allocation is right for your objectives and stage of life.Hastings
Hastings,
I am amazed at how many things that you and I agree on.
You said:My opinion is to get low expense ratio index funds and make sure that your overall asset allocation is right for your objectives and stage of life.I have long been a follower of the philosophy of John Bogle (Vanguard), and for decades have invested in their S&P 500 fund. Expense ration is about .2% which is as low as it gets. I don't argue woodworking with others and I don't argue religion or investment with others. I am not suggesting that others do this, but it works for me.Thanks,
Mel
PS I use to be a follower of Bogle. Now I am a follower of the Bogle-Hastings School of Lifetime Investing.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
<<They do it in order to convince people that their products hold their value.
Ain't that a hoot?
Who knows what is actually going on.>>Guerrilla Marketing. Or would it be Gorilla Marketing when applied in a woodworking sense?<<I can buy Lie Nielsen stuff at Woodcraft with my employee discount>>You're not going to climb the corporate ladder if your boss thinks you're only in it for the discounts.
Mike,
You said:
"You're not going to climb the corporate ladder (at Woodcraft) if your boss thinks you're only in it for the discounts."Woodcraft is an interesting place. Locally, it pays its sales staff $8/hr. It's staff consists only of old woodworking males (either retired or about to be), who are willing to work between 11 and 20 hours a week, and that includes evenings and weekends. Even in a metropolitan area like Washington DC, there are not a lot of people who fit that description. The guys who work there tend to stay til they die (not of the work). But finding new ones is not easy. By the way, the local store would hire all of the woodworking women it could find. No discrimination here. It is just that none have applied. I have checked the local woodworking guild, the turners guild and the carvers group, and unfortunately, not many women are members. I wish we could fix that.Nobody works at Woodcraft for the $8/hr. It is
1) the comraderie,
2)the fast-paced helping of people who are in woodworking trouble and need help,
3)the fact that you learn so much from others who are actually doing things (not just talking about them),
4)as well as the fact that you get the big discount,
5) you can take all the courses for free,
6) and you have complete access to a shop full of big tools. The discount has changed what I do. I now use some exotic woods that I never did in the past, and I am getting deeper into the world of hand tools. Climbing the corporate ladder is not something one does at Woodcraft. There only seems to be three rungs on the ladder:
- the sales clerk
- the store manager
- the owner. The store manager is on call, 7 days a week from 9AM til 9:30PM. That is not a job I'd want. And the chances of me becoming an owner are rather slim. So I am stuck at the lowest of the three rungs, and I am enjoying it thoroughly. On Knots, there are a handful of interesting questions on woodworking tools, woods, finishing, techniques, etc that are posted a day. I get more than that per hour at Woodcraft. All of the customers assume that I know all answers to everything, and that I can answer them without looking anything up. When someone asks me a question that I don't know about (it happens often), I tell them I don't know, and I find someone who does, or I get on the computer and Google the subject. Each day at Woodcraft, I suggest to about a dozen people that they join FWW Knots. Working at Woodcraft is the woodworking equivalent to being a doctor in the local emergency ward. It is rarely dull, often exciting, and at the end of the day, you don't have the energy to run a marathon.Let me know if you move to Northern Virginia and want a job.
We have openings that we can't fill.
((Maybe they'll increase our pay from $8/hr to $8.10/hr!!!!!))
Oh well, I'll be retiring from NASA in a few months, and putting in about 12 hours a week at Woodcraft will continue to make my life a little more interesting, and the discount ain't bad.Hope I didn't bore you. You can tell that I enjoy this thing that others call a "job".
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
<<Oh well, I'll be retiring from NASA>>Mel,I know, from some of your previous posts, that Woodcraft is a "second career" for you and was just joking a bit about the corporate ladder. But hey, with only three rungs...Mike
Mike,
I knew you were kidding. I was just going along with it.
No problems here.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,I hope enjoy your retirement. I'm not quite there yet, but I think about it more and more. It's a strange phase -- good to walk away from the daily grind, but the end of something you were so excited about 35 or 40 years ago.Buy more planes!Mike
Nobody works at Woodcraft for the $8/hr. It is 1) the comraderie, 2)the fast-paced helping of people who are in woodworking trouble and need help, 3)the fact that you learn so much from others who are actually doing things (not just talking about them), 4)as well as the fact that you get the big discount,5) you can take all the courses for free, 6) and you have complete access to a shop full of big tools.
I've heard similar things about Lee Valley. Though by looking at the crowdon a Saturday I wouldn't believe it...
It looks like the seller has another set of scrapers out there. good for him.
Pretty soon there will be eight guys selling LN scrapers on eBay.. hahaha
easy money at the moment
I think everyone is missing the point. Some eBay sellers never own what they sell. This guy may be posting an add for the scrapers then if the price goes over the retail prince he orders it from LN and has it shipped to the buyer. If the auction price fails to reach retail, cancel the auction before if completes, then reposts it. I learned this trick while working with someone who spent too much of his work day running eBay auctions for jewelry and watches. I watched him make several hundred dollars a day. Bet he didn’t report it to the IRS either.
That's a clever trick. I would never do that because I would at least want the product in my hand but then again it would cost me extra in shipping.
This might work if you had access to items at wholesale (so you had more of a spread), but I doubt it would work with very many products at retail prices for two reasons (perhaps watches and jewelry are exceptions since their prices are not always obvious or easily learned): (1) you have to pay eBay for listings; and (2) most bids take place in the last minute; which makes it hard to know whether to cancel early. Just my expereince (mostly buying) on eBay.
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